Senator Orrin Hatch - the man who recently suggested people who illegally download music should have their computers blown up - has warned that the RIAA's DMCA subpoena war might lead to a "litigation explosion" that could seriously damage America's high-tech industry.

During The Price Tag For Free Music, a talk he gave to the National Press Club in Washington recently, he said soon, victims of the way p2p filesharing software is currently configured and employed will seek redress for their injuries - "They will take their cases to creative trial lawyers."

At first, the lawsuits will be against the companies that own and operate the Internet sites that offer peer-to-peer software for downloading, he said, going on:

"Those companies, which are making little, if any, money under their current business models, will quickly go bankrupt, either by losing those lawsuits outright or sinking under the cost of defending themselves.

"Then the trial lawyers will search for another deep pocket. They may look to the creators of the software. Then to the Internet service providers who sell the connections to the Internet. Then to the companies that manufacture, sell and distribute computers, routers, and peripheral equipment.

"You might think this sounds far-fetched. I would like to think so.

"Why should Microsoft, Intel, Verizon or Cisco be responsible when using their products for their intended purpose costs people money, psychological harm, and perhaps even criminal convictions?

"Well, I'm not saying they should be. As a veteran of the tobacco and asbestos litigation wars, however, I'm just saying that nothing surprises me anymore.

"A few years ago, after all, people said the trial lawyers would never win a single suit against the tobacco companies for selling a product that everyone knows is dangerous. That's just one example, but there are many more."

How might a plaintiff's lawyer tie high-tech companies to the damages caused by peer-to-peer filesharing? - Hatch asked.

"He might argue that the high-tech companies know their products are being used to steal music, invade privacy, collect personal information, and distribute pornography. Yet they have neither warned consumers of these dangers nor taken steps to prevent such outcomes.

"Some argue that the current cycle of computer upgrading is driven by people who want computers that can do everything from using broadband connections to the Internet, storing large hard drive files, and burn CDs of downloaded music, to playing stereo-quality music and downloaded video clips. Analysts have repeatedly called peer-to-peer filesharing the killer application driving consumers to buy broadband Internet access. These are the very services and devices that the high-tech industry is manufacturing, advertising and selling.

"The industry knows that adults are signing up for broadband and buying new computers for their kids, and that most of those adults don't know everything their kids will do on those computers. The industry knows that the popular peer-to-peer sites such as KaZaa, Grokster and Morpheus are using software that can expose consumers to the dangers of copyright liability, identity theft, viruses, and pornography.

"Worse yet, the corporations that run these networks try to shield themselves from liability by using kids and other unwitting consumers to distribute pirated music and pornography across their networks. As all of you know, consumers who read newspapers or watch television don't know and have never needed to know about the complex legal duties that you face as creators and distributors of mass media.

"So how dangerous is it for kids and unwary consumers to use filesharing networks to turn their home computers into amateur distribution shops? Let me give you one example: An adult downloading one piece of legal, adult pornography over a peer-to-peer network can easily become an amateur pornographer facing criminal prosecution.

"Imagine an adult who installs the software as recommended and then downloads just one of the millions of pornographic images or videos on that network. Imagine also that it is perfectly legal for an adult to download and view this particular image.

"But remember, our adult has now made that pornography available for distribution from his computer to any of the millions of other users of that network.

"And one recent study shows that perhaps 40 percent of those users are children. Both state and federal laws criminalize the distribution of pornography to minors, so nothing but dumb luck stands between the unwitting adult and the shame, stigma and jail time of a conviction for distributing pornography to children.

"Who would knowingly accept that risk? Who would knowingly face the risks of running a free adult-video store on their home computer?

"My concerns here are twofold: First, consumers deserve to know about these risks. And, second, unless the technology industries that benefit, directly or indirectly, from peer-to-peer filesharing start warning consumers about its dangers, creative lawyers may mire the technology industries in the sort of endless mass-tort litigation that has devastated other industries while conferring few benefits on consumers.

"The good news is that, while this scenario is possible, it is not inevitable for two reasons. First, as soon as the high-tech industry connects the dots and understands the potential risks, they should come to the table and help resolve the current impasse between content owners and free downloaders. Second, the knowledge of so-called free music's high price creates an additional incentive for people not to choose that path. I believe that the judgment and decency of properly informed American consumers and music creators will prevail.

"I hope that today's popular illegitimate filesharing will some day be a thing of the past. In its place, legitimate online music services that use very different network architecture will offer safe, legal content for a fair price.

"I ask the press, copyright holders and high-tech companies to join me in educating citizens about how today's filesharing can endanger their privacy, their financial security, their reputation, and even their freedom.

"I also want the technology industries to work together and with policy makers to develop approaches ensuring that consumers – especially parents – will be fully informed about the dangers of illicit filesharing. I am now developing legislation to help consumers recognize and avoid these dangers. Balancing the competing interests will be challenging, but essential if we are to protect American consumers, artists, and technology industries. industries."

Is orrin hatch crazy or what, does he really think kazaa will talk to technology companies or even thing that P2P services will ever agree on technology, You got to be kidding.

Where the hell does he get his information. If we want pornography just buy a Brittany Spears album. there's a way to avoid all this litigation Mr. Senator Hatch. CHANGE THE DAMN LAWS TO MAKE THEM FAIR TO EVERYONE!!!! did I yell loud enough

Communism is alive and growing in this country, and spreading around the globe! I don't like the idea of living in a controlled, forced environment, but i feel it's grip upon me. I thought this is supposed to be The United States of America, the most "free" country on the planet to live?

I wish I could go live on another planet...

I hate to say this but some of the things he is saying I agree with. Now a days you can sue anyone for anything. And your chances for winning are really good.


Now this statment "Worse yet, the corporations that run these networks try to shield themselves from liability by using kids and other unwitting consumers to distribute pirated music and pornography across their networks." I think he might have smoked his crack pipe one to many times. Now this is False and he should be beaten for even saying it.



And as for this statement ""I hope that today's popular illegitimate filesharing will some day be a thing of the past. In its place, legitimate online music services that use very different network architecture will offer safe, legal content for a fair price." Hmm..... Fair to this guy does not seem fair to the American Public. But than again I am not controlled by the RIAA.


This Guy has no Clue And Senator Hatch quit taking money for your statements on behalf of the RIAA. I will tell you this once. ONce the Public finds out U will be out of a JOB.

I would like to suggest that the legal scenarios which Senator Hatch is warning about may in fact be what he is secretly wishing for.

These arguements, if they were valid, could apply to the entire World Wide Web. Some of these scenarios about creative litigation lawyers will probably come true. But such lawyers don't need the existence of P2P technology to find creative ways to sue people & companies.

(Quote From Above): "Senator Orrin Hatch - the man who recently suggested people who illegally download music should have their computers blown up - has warned that the RIAA's DMCA subpoena war might lead to a "litigation explosion" that could seriously damage America's high-tech industry."

What does Hatch know about High-Tech.

1. What the hell does Hatch do besides being a barker for the RIAA.
2. What did the people of Utah elect him to do? Bark for the RIAA?
3. As much as I dislike Micro$oft, I would LOVE the see the RIAA try to take them on!
4. Open Hatch IS crazy!

From the article:
"He might argue that the high-tech companies know their products are being used to steal music, invade privacy, collect personal information, and distribute pornography. Yet they have neither warned consumers of these dangers nor taken steps to prevent such outcomes."


I would like to argue that our government knows that their representatives (like Senator Hatch) are being used (by big money companies like the RIAA) to steal money, invade privacy, collect personal information, and distribute pornography. Yet they have neither warned consumers of these dangers nor taken steps to prevent such outcomes.

Someone needs to file a lawsuit against
Hatch(etman) for even opening his mouth. You would think even an riaa paid politician would at least know what he is talking about. Hmmm What was I thinking, I don't know of too many politicians that know what they are talking about, they are so used to speaking out of both sides of their mouth.

How about a class action lawsuit against the government, aren't they even higher up the chain than isp's when it comes to the internet.

R

Orrin Hatch has always looked to me like
he ate like a bucketload of lead based paint chips.
Elevated blood lead levels can result in:
learning disabilities.
behavioral problems.
mental retardation.
Here's why I bring this up.
From his Bio..
"Orrin Grant Hatch was born on March 22, 1934, to Jesse and Helen Hatch in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. His great-grandfather, Jeremiah Hatch, founded what is now known as Vernal, located in eastern Utah's great Uintah basin. Senator Hatch married the former Elaine Hansen of Newton, Utah. They are the proud parents of six children and have twenty grandchildren.

At an early age, Senator Hatch was taught the value of hard work. His father worked long hours as a metal lather to provide for his family."
Metal lathers may have metal dust on their clothes which kids can inhale. Now, granted that plumbers have more to do with lead than metal lathers, but, both are metal And we know that, per the Bio..."Senator Hatch also learned the metal lathing trade.." And, he was drawn back to the metal lathing trade again. His Bio goes on "As a law student, he struggled to provide for his growing family, working as a janitor, a metal lather and at night as an all-night desk attendant in a dormitory".

And, did you know Orrin (Open) Hatch has been called "Mr. Constitution"?
That's what his bio says..."He has been recognized by the National Taxpayers' Union for his fiscal responsibility and has been dubbed by others "Mr. Free Enterprise," "Guardian of Small Business," and "Mr. Constitution."

So, based on a longitudinal study of this metal lather's life, I suggest that perhaps, working in metal shavings much of his life, has induced an early onset of Alzheimers, which has in the past, been associated with increased levels of aluminum in hte brain.

http://www.rense.com/general37/alum.htm

http://student.biology.arizona.edu/ad/bbb.html

http://www.paralumun.com/alzheimers.htm

Of course, maybe it's not Alzheimers nor lead consumption, maybe he's just a friggin' monomaniacal idiot, obsessed
with pr0n and P2P users.

Gee what do you mean "the high-tech companies know their products are being used to steal music, invade privacy, collect personal information, and distribute pornography. Yet they have neither warned consumers of these dangers nor taken steps to prevent such outcomes."

Isn't that what the software use agreement is all about with these software companies? You agree NOT to use their software to do these things. Look up the Kazaa software agreement, or any other software agreement. It shows that Orin Hatch KNOWS NOTHING about technology and should just keep his mouth shut.

And to think Hatch is Mormon.

"I ask the press, copyright holders and high-tech companies to join me in educating citizens about how today's filesharing can endanger their privacy, their financial security, their reputation, and even their freedom.

The citizens are "educated" Mr. (Down the) Hatch. They are educated and they know all to well what is endangering their "privacy, their financial security, their reputation, and even their freedom." I think a great many corrupt polititians are going to suffer quite a wake up call come the next election year. If anything the CA. recall election proves that that nonvoting majority has finally taking an interest in politics. Just keep diggin' it deeper Mr. Hatch, you'll save us the trouble.

I read this article and I have to say I was floored. Wouldn't Hatch be better suited working as a greeter at WalMart? How the heck does such a moron convince people to vote for him in the first place?

**Note: If I inadvertantly offended any WalMart greeters who are frequent readers, please feel free to direct any and all responses here: http://www.senate.gov/~hatch/index.cfm?Fuseaction=Offices.Contact

"Senator Orrin Hatch - the man who recently suggested people who illegally download music should have their computers blown up - has warned that the RIAA's DMCA subpoena war might lead to a "litigation explosion" that could seriously damage America's high-tech industry."

Yeah, he's right. As long as congress is owned by the Entertainment Industry, the technology industry is in danger. So in order to prevent this from happening, people such as Orin Hatch must be voted out of office. However, with Microsoft's Paladium / DRM, it appears it is too late and the tech ind. is already suffering.

Quote from above: "Those [peer-to-peer software] companies, which are making little, if any, money under their current business models, will quickly go bankrupt, either by losing those lawsuits outright or sinking under the cost of defending themselves."

He implies this is a good thing but then wants to stop the same principle being used against larger, rich companies that he thinks are more legitamate. Let me get this straight: he wants to put p2p companies out of business by the cost of legal action along REGARDLESS IF THE ACTION IS SUCCESSFULL OR NOT!

This is just a case of whoever has the most money wins, even if they are legally in the wrong. As the quote even points out, p2p companies aren't all that profitable at the moment and will therefore be easy to dispose of in this manner.

Who wins in this senario? The lawyers.
Who loses? The law... and all of us.

iH8RIAA,
Please be considerate when mentioning orrin hatch being mormon, feel free to mention it, but please be considerate in the tone you use it. I am also mormon, but i don't agree with hatch and neither do my relatives who live in utah either.

who here thinks that Microsoft, Intel, Verizon or Cisco should be held responsible when people using their products for their intended purposes causes people a loss of money, psychological harm, and perhaps even criminal convictions. Well I do and if their was any threat of this to the corporations we would have the cluster f$#$ of security flaws and backdoors we do. Not to mention there would be no case for these people because of the protections corporations have. None of the firms given as an example or any other firms involved allow users to operate without first making them agree to terms that cover their a$$. So it is a null subject anyway. This guy cracks me up.

Wll Microsoft get sued also? After all, computers running Windows are using that OS to access the internet, utilize the p2p software, download "illegal" music, and burn CDs. Hey...Sony...you're next! My CD-RW and burn software are made by you...it's you're fault I'm able to burn bootleg CDs! And Memorex...you make blank CD-RW discs...and you've got the "deep pockets" those sharks are looking for!

Hatch is an ignorant old f*ck.

People who make desks will be sued next! Many computers sit on desks and computers can download music! Obviously those making desks should have altered their products to prevent this from happening...

RECALL ORREN HATCH NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

why dont we sue the artist since they didnt tell me i would get sued for buying all thier merchandise and music and wanting to share my fanatic ways with others.

soon i shall let it all burn..

I'm sorry. But di you say Orren is a mormon or a moron?

Down the Hatch!

DeadMan2003,
come on, watch the mormon jokes. This could turn into a lets bash orrin if this continues.

Of course M$, Sony, Intel and the rest shouldn't be held responsible for monetary losses or psychological harm when their products are used "as intended"..they're rich multinational corporations. They're above the law, and more importantly, they bribe..er, contribute to campaigns for Luddite politicians. It's been too long since the US had a good old fashioned revolution.

Slightly off-topic, I'm so sick of listening to that 'think of the children' red herring..it only distracts from the real argument, which I'm sure is why it's used so often. Don't have a real argument or even an understanding of the discussion? No problem! Just say people's brats will be somehow harmed if you don't get your way (sounds almost like extortion when stated that way ). Unfortunatly it seems to work quite well on many of the sheeple out there.

Oral Hatch.... Sucking up all the way to the RIAA!!

Last time I checked you had to agree to an End User License Agreement (EULA for short), that covers all the bases for liability before installing the software. Maybe he should start by reading the EULA of this fantasy P2P software he has alluded to in his story.

Vote out all of these career criminals, uh politicians.

ahhhhhh yet a Republican DUH! AGAIN! Money, Money, Money, MONEY!!!

Hey folks this guy only knows what people who pay for his attention say to him. I believe right now he is introducing legislation that ammends the constitution to allow Ahnuld to run for president. He is the Republican version of Robert Byrd, and the only way he is going to be voted out of office is if he gets caught with his pants down and an office full of sheep.

It seems that he is a toadie for the entertaiment industry and he wants to put his nose into the tech industry (see money will buy you anything).

So just write your congressman about his proposed legislation and tell them what you think. If enough of you write they will listen.

if i use a search engine and type in "britney spears", then i would get maybe 95% legitimate fan pags, etc. but that other 5% would be porn links. This is the exact same with P2P... type in "Britney Spears" and watch 190 legitimate (if you count the spoofed audio files on kazaa) and then you'll get mayb 10 porn files... i say ban the internet.... wait... thats what Orrin Hatch says.

Anyone remember the Grant Hill Sprite commercial from waaaay back when. Everytime he made a positive comment towards the Sprite drink, *cha-CHING* money shows up on the bottom right.

I think it would work better for Mr.Hatch.

"And the industry should be allowed to ransack file-sharers' homes and completely annihilate anything even remotely resembling a computer!"

*cha-CHING cha-CHING!*

I can see it now. Hatch was quoted as saying, "We must rid ourselves of this Internet scourage. It's just a haven for people who think they're too good to pay outrageous prices for software or music and decide to take the anti-corp action of making their own and giving it away to others! It's horrifying. What has the Internet ever done except fill people's heads with useless ideas?"

Vote all the bums out! Don't spare anybody just because of party affiliation.

HeHeHe Hmmmmmm I think hatch has no idea just how fast he can be thrown out of office. look what just happened in california I think he needs to shut his mouth because he sounds just like one of those preachers from the 80's like he's never done anything yea right.

this man is being paid by our tax dollars and this is the thanks we get? he is one of the masterminds of this HR2517 terrorism policy and endorsing it to the RIAA's liking. this sinister man is one of, if not the most powerful figure in the senate and the RIAA is his girlfriend and he will defend for her at all costs. it will be hard to get him out of office and this man is totally against the way of life that downloading music has to offer because he is being brainwashed by the RIAA that it is wrong. if the RIAA have their way, he must be getting an enormous kickback from it if they are successful.

Were's Senator Recall when you need it?

I would like to know, if any of the lawyers on this site would indulge us, just how can one start a recall movement for an elected official?

Good question. Everybody's yelling it but nobody knows how to go about doing it. But let's not stop with Hatch let's go recall every high-ranking official that voted for any legislation that benefitted a special interest group that he accepted money from.

Education is our chief weapon here and if we can show a politician took money from the RIAA/MPAA and then voted for the DMCA then... if it looks like corruption and smells like corruption...

If we are able to start recalls then we could take the line of "not representing the people's wishes".

Just my little ramble for the week.

RhythmMethod....Open Hatch says it all!

DeadMan2003 wrote:
I'm sorry. But di you say Orren is a mormon or a moron?

Damn you beat me to the punchline.

axxis wrote:
RECALL ORREN HATCH NOW!!!!!!!!!!!

As I recall Orren Hatch is an idiot!

I recently said in a usenet post that the RIAA, MPAA and the rest of the Evil Empire would attempt to ban all network technology if they thought they could. According to Hatch, they might give it a try .

The ISPs are certinly potential targets for the RIAA, because many of them dont like p2p anyway. Its forceing them to upgrade their networks. When they started selling broadband access they never thought their customers would be using it all day, every day. They certinly didn't think customers might want to upload large quantities of data. There was one case a few years ago when some part of the music industry (I cant remember if it was the RIAA or now) demanded one of the T1 backbone ISPs block access to a pirate MP3 site hosted in China, out of reach of their lawyers. The site vanished (in mysterious circumstances) before the case went to court through. But whats been tried once, could be tried again. The RIAA could start demanding ISPs block p2p programs or face charges of contributory copyright infringement. If a p2p network operator can be found liable for running a network which can be used for copyright infringement without any kind of filtering system, why not an ISP? Their common carrier immunity has always been a bit of a legal grey area. It was the ISPs that insisted on the DMCA takedown provision to avoid liability for their customers actions, but at the time they were only thinking about personal websites and dialup customers.

I can just imagine the RIAA setting their lawyers onto the manufacturers of high-quality sound cards, claiming piracy is the main reason people buy their products, and demanding that all future sound cards are fitted with a watermark detector or else they start a 10-year legal campaign. All the effects of the CDTBPA, but without the difficulties of trying to pass a rediculous law.

If you were to type in "britney spears" would would indeed get 95% fan pages and 5% porn. But the porn pages would be the ones that use misleading metadata to cheat in the search engine rankings, so the first few pages would contain above-average porn ratios.

Hatch is suffering from "propaganda poisoning". Far too much exposure to lobbyists. In this case through, he has a point. When large numbers of expensive lawyers are involved, you can never tell what will happen. There are a few ties between the music and tech industries already, and the TV and movie industries have been makeing a lot of shady semi-secret deals with tech companies to ensure mere consumers dont get access to certian features. Remember replayTV? Found liable for copyright infringement because it added a button to skip 30 seconds of video, bypassing adverts. If that can happen, anything can happen.

Here we go again.. comparing music downloading to porno. I'm so sick of this lame analogy. I noticed tho, they never mentioned the way the same scenario MIGHT play out with someone who's music sharing. Why not? Cuz it's NOT illegal to share FILES.
I'd like to meet the brain trust that came up with this comparison. If porno was so bad, (and I'm not saying it is or isn't, just going with the example) why does porn have almost the most hits of anything on the internet, second only to travel? That's been going on for at least ten years that I can think of. Food for thought.
I join many here and elsewhere when I say that the alphabet mafia needs to quit stalling and just change. Change is good. We (the downloading community) have proven time and again that if you change the model, you'd make more money. They won't listen to us. One reason I can think of is that they are just tooooooo damned comfortable with the status quo. That sucks, and to be honest, that in and of itself is reason to change. So.. boycott, educate, VOTE
ttmmm

how old is this man? i think he needs to retire because his reasoning for things dealing with the country is going all haywire. this man may very well be the second coming of "mien kaumph".

Are there even any politicians, Republican or Democrat alike who are against all this crap being spewed by people like Orin Hatch. I mean, I would vote the other way, but I dont know of one who is For P2P and their users.

Deliriou5, I don't know of ANY senators or congress critters that are on our side. We have begged and pleaded for a list of anti-riaa politicians and unfortunately, I am thinking the reason we don't have a list yet is that there simply are none. I suggest we vote against ALL incumbs. At least the "newbie" politicos might figure out why the previous politico lost their job and wise up a little.

Shmoo, of Electric Gypsy
http://electricgypsy.iuma.com

Why does he keep talking backwards? You can't go after Micro$oftl, Intel, broadband companies, hardware companies, etc. because the end user installs third-party software that *can* be used to do illegal things, but also has valid non-infringing uses...

90% of all crackrocks are smoked in apartments, so lets start suing all the landlords in the country for assisting crackheads. Also, most of those crackrocks are melted with Bic lighters, so lets sue Bic also. Oh, and some people made crackpipes out of Coca-Cola cans, so Coke's on the list too.
Woot woot!

James

This isn't Communism, per se. Communism (at least the socialist aspects thereof) promotes people sharing, which is what p2p does.

This is Hitler-esque totalitarianism, through and through. This is unbridled fascism and corporatism, forcefully imposed by the autocrats.

The points made in this article are SO wrong on so many levels. I've often had problems with many things Mr. Hatch has been invloved in. I too am tired of the sue 'em all campaign employed not only by corporations, but also by citizens. Remember the McDonald's hot coffee lawsuit? If I had spilled coffee on myself, my first thought wouldn't have been "Gee, I wonder how much money I could get for this". It would have been "Boy, am I a dumbass!" Unfortunately, we live in a society where all the blame is taken away from us and put onto the shoulders of others, mainly those with money. People no longer want to take responsibilty for their own actions. Or raise their own kids. Or work for their own money. Sigh. I am also tired of pro RIAA arguments that equate file sharing to sick, degrading and harmful things. Unfortunately, this will get the attention of less informed citizens who are the people who faithfully turn up to to vote. I'm not losing faith, but sometimes feel like we are fighting a losing battle.

So when are they going to sue the pay for views that regularly broadcast porn as their subject? What? You mean there are no lawsuits out for the satellite companies? How can this be if this dreadful porn is so bad?

Once again, Orin for hire is looking for another handout...

I'm listening to some "stereo-quality" music while downloading/uploading kiddie porn as we speak.

What a maroon!

Senator Orrin Hatch talks and acts like a luniac...