Posted by Jon Newton in on September 29, 2003 at 2:26 PM
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Let's Play Starving Artist
The New Game From the RIAA
Except it Ain't New
By Richard Menta
I couldn't help but be stunned when I first read about it in the New York Times. It was surreal, even comical, but delivered in a distorted seriousness that begged my concern. A campaign aimed school children through the schools and lead by the entertainment industry with the help of Junior Achievement.
You can read the details in the above Times article, but essentially the film and record industries (mostly the film industry) have orchestrated a school-to-school tour to "educate" 5th through 9th graders about the evils of file trading. A program designed to reach 900,000 students that is offspring of those ancient industrial films regularly parodied on the Simpsons (smokestacks are your friends kids).
One of the key activities of this program - and what caught my eye - was a game called 'Starving Artist' where students come up with an idea for a record album, cover art, and lyrics. After this exercise is completed a volunteer teacher drops the supposed bombshell, that the album is already available for download for free. From the Times article "According to the lesson, the volunteer would then "ask them how they felt when they realized that their work was stolen and that they would not get anything for their efforts."
All I could think of when I read this was what a wonderful opportunity this was for the record industry in particular to use file trading to its advantage. Not as a promotional tool as we have written about so many times in these pages, but as an entity to take the rap for their past actions. Something to take the blame for the record industry's decades-old systematic exploitation of artists through their audit departments.
Rock Historian Dave Marsh once described being an artist in the record industry as the equivalent of sharecropping. In sharecropping, the farmer doesn't really own the vegetables they raise, the landowner does. The landowner pays them a fee for the amount of produce they create, but charges back the cost of the feed, fertilizer, use of equipment, even water - all at inflated prices. In the end, the sharecropper makes the minimum it takes to keep them and their families alive so they can work the land the next year and the next. As the sharecropper suffers in poverty, the landowner garners excess wealth.
This fact has become very clear to the music buying public. Several months back another NY Times reporter queried a few 13 year-old boys about file trading and if they thought there was anything wrong with it. The boys, who were active traders, told the reporter that the record industry steals from the artists they idolize anyway, so they felt they were doing nothing wrong. I am going to assume these kids do not regularly read the Times, yet the message that the record industry cheats artists is reaching them. Whether one thinks this message is accurate or not is beyond the point. This is the consumer perception and one that extends not just to adults but to children.
To me this was evidence of the bad PR the record industry has generated over the last few years, bad PR coming from the public dissection of industry practices in the wake of the Napster trial. The original Napster is gone now, but its specter is still there and still changing the music industry dramatically.
The media companies in a savvy twist are looking to change the perceptions of children who have yet to reach any such conclusions about them. If kids hear artists are starving no less than their own teachers will collectively point all the blame on KaZaa, iMesh, and the various Gnutella clients.
I say, if our schools are going to allow industrial propaganda like 'Starving Artist' in our school, if we are going to allow the teachers we pay to be shills for the record industry, then let's do it right.
Let the game represent Marsh's reality, not the RIAA's version of it. Balance this game by also letting Courtney Love and Janis Ian and Pearl Jam tour these classrooms and give them THEIR reality of the record business. That the only ones taking their livelihood from them and taking the foods from their mouths are the record companies who claim ownership of the music they create and the ticket and venue monopolies who collect their concert receipts.
Do that and then you have a more accurate program called Starving Artist.
Good lord, my taxes go to pay school boards that would allow this? What's next, a school tour by the Christian right warning of the temptations of Islam and Judaism?
(Rich is the founder of mp3newswire.)
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User Comments
JamesD2
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 2:32 PM
It could backfire and those of the 900,000 that didnt know you could download a song or movie before it comes out will suddenly know and educated by none other than the MPAA and the RIAA...
could be the blind leading the dog...
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kneo24
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 2:32 PM
You guys are a bit slow with this one! I would have submitted this news to you guys when I first saw it a couple weeks ago, but I probably wouldn't have gotten credit for it, and you probably wouldn't have posted it right away.
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napstersghost
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 2:35 PM
All I can picture after reading this are tons of kids sleeping through the Starving Artist propaganda. Kids are too smart then the RIAA give them credit for.
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Accipiter777
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 2:35 PM
"I probably wouldn't have gotten credit for it" . . . . you kidding right? You sound like the RIAA there.
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kneo24
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 2:43 PM
Accipter, they have a system here where if you submit news, you're supposed to get credit for it. If people don't get credit for the news that they submit, then the system is pointless. Learning to read between the lines is a skill, something which you may not be very good at.
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directive
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 2:44 PM
If THE RIAA THINKS HIGH SCHOOL KIDS GIVE A DA** ABOUT COPYRIGHTS OR ABOUT EDUCATION ON FILESHARING, THEY NEED TO WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.
DRUGS ARE RAMPANT IN OUR SOCIETY, AND DON'T THE SCHOOLS TEACH TO BE DRUG-FREE.
School is not the place to learn these things, The home is! And also, filesharing is a great tool, unlike drugs and beer.
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viperpa33s
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 2:45 PM
If I ever found out they were teaching my daughter this crap, there would be hell to pay. I have already taught my daughter how the RIAA lies, cheats, and steals. There would be no way that the RIAA can manipulate my daughter into buying there products. The RIAA should be worried that there future customers are in jeapordy with there sue-em campaign.
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darkened03
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 2:49 PM
I agree, just because these people are younger than us does not mean they are less intelligent. I remember my late grade school years, it was my all time highest peak of disdain towards adults telling me what is right and wrong from the DARE program that taught me all about drugs that I knew nothing of before and my school's attempt to teach abstinence is right sex is wrong...
Telling people that have zero respect for you what is wrong only encourages it. People have very little sympathy for the RIAA that's why they create lies to bend the truth (into a chainlink fence) and bend it so much that the uninformed can no longer see through the facade.
I believe the "children" will see through this sham alot easier than many blind adults. And as JamesD said they will just create 900,000 more file sharers, we can all hope right? 
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wet1
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 2:52 PM
Education of the young in school? Where have I heard this before? Oh yes, now I remember...
Seems Hitler had this idea, educate the youth and bring them up to think how you want. In fact, history teaches us that this has happened over and over again. The victors get to write the rules and to rewrite history. Seems to me, someone is jumping ahead of things as this is by no means either won nor played out to where there is a victory. Now how is damage control going to be done in those same schools should d/ling prove to be legal at a later date? Think the MPAA is going to come back on its own and say to those kids, "We were wrong?" Some how I doubt that would happen.
It seems that once again, major labels are digging a hole that will make the public have a very poor veiw of the actions they are taking.
What is missing from all this is one thing. Kids, it is your responcibility to report your parents if they are using P2P.
Now, you think parents, were the money for kids to spend comes from, are going to support this???
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newjon
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 2:57 PM
Hey kneo24: We're out there looking for stuff non-stop and a lot of the time, we already have items people submit. Also, just as often, we'll take part of a story and use it in another item. An example is the 'starving artists' who were mentioned on September 25 in *The Natives are Restless*. Cheers!
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Bufo
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 3:00 PM
I recently went to a school "open house" at the elementary school where my sons attend. I noticed that they have brand new computers with internet access.
So, if I were a kid in school, and the teacher had me play "Starving Artist", I think the first thing I would do after the game is rush over to the computer and see if I could download Kazaa or iMesh.
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Bufo
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 3:01 PM
Oh, by the way, if one of my two sons were to download mp3 files at school, who would be liable? Me or the school?
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axxis
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 3:04 PM
Propaganda . . . just plain propaganda.
I guess I missed the news about them changing the name of our country to the United States of Nazi-Land.
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thumbtack
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 3:07 PM
Besides when you submit a news article you get 20 points on DMusic even if its not used and 100 if we approve it..often we'll have several people submitt the same news story sometimes weeks latter sometimes years later..if its cut and pasted we use it as source material, if its an article that is written by the submitter it stands a much better chance of getting published. Unless we will have to spend hours correcting spelling, fixing links, etc, then it's often easier and quicker to write from scratch...
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tds67
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 3:17 PM
What the hell is this crap doing in our public school system? So now we have we have four R's: Reading, Writing, 'Rithmetic and RIAA? What NONSENSE!!!
Little Jimmy and Janie need an example like this one: They create a music album (CD) and turn it over to a man named Cary, who sells it for big bucks and gives them candy money. That is a much better analogy.
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INeedAlover
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 3:22 PM
Two things wrong with their scenario:
1) Only the MUSIC is downloaded, in inferior form. People could (and do) still buy your work for the lyrics, artwork, and any other extras.
2) Isn't this exactly what the LABELS have been doing anyways? I think the game is ACTUALLY played like this:
"Students come up with an idea for a record album, cover art, and lyrics. After this exercise is completed" a record label executive promises the student to sell their work for them, and make them famous. A year later, after the record has sold 2 million copies, the record label executive "drops the supposed bombshell, that the" artist still owes the record label a hundred thousand dollars to pay for all costs to produce the album. Meanwhile, the record label has grossed $30 Million and netted $15 Million.
That's the reality they SHOULD be teaching our 5th through 9th graders. Because that is the reality of the music business today.
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compmore
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 3:45 PM
What I find interesting in most of the articles coming out now is mostly a huge PR war. The industry lost so much with the round of lawsuits that they are now calling in all their favors in the media to blitz the PR campaign. however I'm willing to bet they had this planned anyway prior to launching the lawsuits
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Accipiter777
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 3:46 PM
kneo24, Credit to ya buddy. Thats what its all about. its not about the news. but who gets the credit.
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ZeonMusic
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 3:57 PM
So Cary-Sue and friends have dropped as low as mudslinging. I knew from the beginning he was no better than a stinking politician.
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kneo24
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 4:32 PM
Accipiter, you quoted me out of context, and ignored the rest. This is not solely about the credit. This is about this places work, or lack thereof. I find it amusing how they never touched on the fact they purposely fail to report certain news articles untils days, or even weeks later.
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JIGGAMAN42076
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 4:44 PM
kneo24, Don't waste your time. Actisphinter777 ain't the brightest light in the harbor...
I see where you come from. I'm on your side.
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independentm...
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 4:44 PM
directive, wake up!
The kids are all right! (The Who told us that a-ways back, and it is STILL true!) DON'T let Rupert Murdoch and FOX NEWS and clones fool ya into thinking such bunk.
Actually, the post gen-x crowd is probably more "hip" and up on things than we ever were.
So what, many of them experiment with sex drugs and rock and roll... some will succumb to the evils, some will rise above... but the new kids are more educated about the real world than any of us who grew up in the 60's/70's/80's... In fact, WE are their parents and aunts and uncles!!!
DON'T let the corportate Right Wing Uptights fool ya into the "ommygod, kids are outta control" mindset.
If you buy into it, those RIAA friendly skunks WIN!
THE KIDS ARE ALL RIGHT!
Shmoo, of Electric Gypsy
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Accipiter777
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 5:23 PM
ahhh...i hear ya now kneo...my bad. sorry that the brother (jigga) feels it is good to stoop to personal attacks. thanks kneo for explaining it and not doing the same as social crutch boy.
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tasadar24
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 5:35 PM
I wish they came to my school(9-12), I'd beat there lies down with truth. It'd be one of the funniest things to watch some idiot try and find a way to contradict the truth, in front of a couple hundred kids, most of them file sharers.
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RagingDrunk
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 5:37 PM
I can only hope the riaa comes to my school and we play this game. I can't wait to see the look on their faces when the album cover is a big middle finger, and the album is entitled "F*** the riaa." When asked how I felt about my album being available free on the internet I might say something like "At least you guys aren't making any money off my hard work."
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JIGGAMAN42076
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 5:51 PM
"sorry that the brother (jigga) feels it is good to stoop to personal attacks."
Just following your lead Actisphinter. I just want to be a cool cat-daddy like yourself.
BTW, you should give credit to "Oldies" for the "social crutch" quip, as he is the one who said it originally {Article 8174} (which just so happened to be the only time it was funny).
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darkened03
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 5:52 PM
Shmoo please don't confuse right wing and radical right wing aka Nazism. These current problems are democratic based. The DMCA and NET acts go against the basic belief of right wing which is to keep the government out of business. I am a republican and when I see any senators that support these horrible acts and it starts with R- I am appalled.
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grindspud
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 5:59 PM
I love this...somewhat unrelated...I never use Outlook Express, use Yahoo! mail, too many virii coming in OE. So anyways, I decide to check what junk mail came in my comcast email account, and found an email about my offering copywritten material with p2p software. It seems that I was sharing Kangaroo Jack.
...
THAT MOVIE LOOKED SO STUPID, I *NEVER* even downloaded the movie, let alone shared it.
This email was from back in May, and I was never contacted other than that email, and my service was never stopped as per the email.
If I can be accused of offering copywritten material when I'm innocent, how many others are there out there?
Don't back down, they are few, we are legion!
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churchkey
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 6:01 PM
Knock it off Shmoo, you obviously do not watch Fox news. It is no more biased than NBC or CNN are towards the liberal left. It is up to the viewer to discern a balance. Just keep insulting me and I will take my right wing a** outta here, cause if you insult me, then you don't need me.
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TheSherminator
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 6:03 PM
If you guys thing kids don't "care" you are probably right. It doesn't mean they aren't going to go home and go "Mommy downloading is stealing and stealing is wrong" and Mommy says 'that's correct dear."
They don't know what's going on or why. They don't care. They know what they've been told. They'll retain their current association between 'downloading' and 'stealing' and 'homeless artist bob' well into their adult years unless they learn to think for themselves. If they can't learn, they'll have to be put in California with the rest of them and just wait until that one magical day when everybody who blabs their mouth and can't shut up, but doesn't know why, is suddenly swimming in the pacific.
screw the record companies for doing this to the children.
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purfus
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 6:32 PM
I think the entire thing is pretty sick. Textbooks in schools cant refer to peanuts because some kids are alergic... But a corporate entity can come in and influence our young on their view of an issue to which the moralities have yet to be decided. I've always been a proponant of home schooling. I was home schooled myself, right through highschool. Corporate takeover of our educational system is just another reason.
However, their little psychological test does not really prove much. First of all the study of psychology tells us that most people around the age of the targeted audience have not yet developed the ability to judge for themselves the morality of a situation. So on the average all that will be found through the questions is what other people have told the students and what they have chosen to believe.
I would be interested to know how many students say "I don't care, I spent a few minutes drawing a smiley face on this thing and I even hid the word LSD in the picture...."
Well anyway, I guess it's out with the undue influence of the bible and in with the RIAA....
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zeitgheist
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 6:37 PM
Hear hear, Purfus...
I dont post as often as I should but Im gonna say again...this right wing vs. left act, as well as the reverse, is silly and non productive. I too, am a conservative republican-but this forum is about us united in a common cause.
Political forums are easy to find. Argue there. I am sure that the riaa finds this infighting pleasing...
Last time I took a look, riaa subpeonas are non-partisan...
~time flies~
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tasadar24
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 6:40 PM
The Sherminator, your talking about 3 graders and below. I know by 6th grade I would've went, "so?"
Don't underestimate the intelligence of todays youth, I'm one of them(15) and I'm sure by 6th grade at least I wouldn't have cared. And anyways, can you tell me of a child with broadband who doesn't have kazaa?
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RagingDrunk
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 6:56 PM
I too am only 15, but I've been file-sharing ever since the rise of Napster. I was only in middle school then, and I didn't associate file-sharing with stealing, to me it was a way to get a cd without having to save my allowance for 4 weeks, then end up having the cd be a p.o.s.
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RagingDrunk
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 6:56 PM
I too am only 15, but I've been file-sharing ever since the rise of Napster. I was only in middle school then, and I didn't associate file-sharing with stealing, to me it was a way to get a cd without having to save my allowance for 4 weeks, then end up having the cd be a p.o.s.
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tasadar24
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 7:10 PM
Not only do I feel the same way Raging(also, since Napster...)
Heres my thoughts, "If the RIAA won't play nice, then neither will I", and with that thought, I burned my first MP3 cd.
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sharefile
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 7:24 PM
those junior achievment programs dont do anything to help kids with whats right and wrong we never listened. the one i had to go through was one about how non violently avoid bullys and how to get them to stop by making them your friends because all they want is attention. that whole thing didnt work before and this one isnt going to do much of anything except tell them about kazaa
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MerylStryfe
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 7:37 PM
America's really depressing me. It's just one sad news story after another. First, it was the report I saw last night on 60 minutes that people could lose their homes and property to private corporations through "eminent domain." I.e., a county, to raise their tax base, can condemn one person's land and sell it at a cheap rate to another one.
Now it's the "re-education" campaign by the RIAA to school children. Wet 1 I agree with you. As much as I love America, because this is my home, it's becoming too much like a Stalinistic regime. Children are educated at an early age to think like corporations want them to think.
I think what's happening now is setting a dangerous precedent, and people are too afraid, or too disconnected to do anything about it. And those who do know think, "Well, what Can I do?" Why is independent individual thought being feared in this country? Disagreement used to be a basic human right. Now those who challenge anyone in power, whether they be in government, or in business are punished. Take the Nigerian Ambassador's wife who was outted as a CIA operative, just because her husband disagreed with Bush policies.
I dunno. I would say, take me to Canada...but it seem, from the news accounts I've seen on this site today, that the plague is spreading.
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Mediamaster
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 7:40 PM
All that's good for is getting out of another period in math.
Hail Mp3!!!
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TheSherminator
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 8:34 PM
tasadar, I agree. But the strategy of get 'em while they're young still works if you get them while they are young enough. Tobacco companies work the same way. Big surprise, Big Tobacco and Big Music both try to brainwash people before they're old enough to say "hey wait a minute, this is fricken stupid."
We all know smokers in their 20's, 30's, 40's and so on that say "I can do what I want with my body!" That's true, and that is fine. I think they can do what they want with their bodies. But if they didn't get essentially brainwashed at a young age, do you think they would still be saying that in their old age? It just goes to prove that if you're told anything at all and made to believe it while you're young, you'll come up with things to defend it. Any children that had their brains washed over by this may end up being the next presidents of the RIAA (if they are still around), MediaEnforcer, and so on. They'll spew forth the same garbage. And they'll actually believe it.
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mtekk
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 8:39 PM
This is just great, and best of all I won't have to go through it, but i'll be on the P2P is your freind reeducation squad( a.k.a. the RIAA is a f'ing corperate monopoly that must be eliminated). I can't wait, 'tell 'they' attempt to reeducate me in their evil ways, but then again I'll step up to their challenge, and sway the presintation/ activity to focus on our point of veiw, Everyting will be in my favor when they challenge me!
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Synthetikk242
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 9:04 PM
Wow. I guess they figure since the war on drugs worked so well, this will too. Yeah kids.. just say no!
good one...
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RIAAposterchild
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 9:17 PM
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kneo24
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 9:37 PM
I would also like to mention I'm not the only user who has had the problems I'm mentioning. Some people have told me that the articles they submitted only showed up here AFTER they told the staff that they didn't care about getting credit for finding it.
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zeitgheist
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 9:37 PM
meryl......i see what you are saying-but dont misconstrue. america is fine, we just have a lil problem with the RIAA. its all about the facts, as is the CIA 'conundrum' you spoke of.
this happens many times each year-it, like this riaa thing is non-partisan.
dont be so down on us here in america, we have a chance to set a powerful precedent, which is being watched the world over, further, we have a chance to do it right-and i for one, think we have better than even odds to accomplish it. canada will back down, so will the UK....and art, as does knowledge, will remain free as it wants and needs to be.
fatalism does nobody any good...
now, where is that cyber chapel? ;p
~time flies~
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purfus
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 11:25 PM
zeitgheist, your right we will win. But then what....
I'm a bit surprised to see anyone that attends school to not be disheartened by the attempted influence over our children/young adults. I'm sure that a lot of you are very intellegent, probably many are even more so than I. However, education is a whole other thing. To be educated you need exposure. People learn empiracly. Through observation. Whether or not everyone in the class looks down in greif over copyright infringement is irrelevent. Some may. Maybe none will in certain classes. But it doesn't matter because the attempt at the act is un-ethical. How can they claim to have the right to influence our children. Especially when millions of people in our own country disagree with their views. Their success in the matter doesn't matter. If I attempted to stab you, and you survived you wouldn't be as thankful for your survival as you would be pissed at me for trying to stab you. The fact that any of you 15 year old or any other young people here are reading this information and considering the issues should tell you that you defently are in the percentage that will disagree with the RIAA. But there are others, less educated and even less open minded. There is no room in our school systems for big business.
All that said.... I am glad to see young people speaking out. You are key to the success of our campaign. Keep burning those CDs. And stop listening to big label crap.
Thats all the ranting I got for one night Dailly Show is on, I'm out.
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woodhead
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Date: September 29, 2003 @ 11:29 PM
Some people have told me that the articles they submitted only showed up here AFTER they told the staff that they didn't care about getting credit for finding it.
Why are you stirring up crap kneo, are we not in the same battle here????
We are all protesting!!!!!!I visit both here and anti RIAA. Why must you come here and question what this movement is doing when in reality both sites are striving for the same thing. For what you are saying here is why I have been quite for the past few days. This movement has separated and this is not a good thing. I was disappointed when code and you and every one else left, and hope and wait for you guys to come back or get back to business to the battle that is going on. We can not fight or try to bring down each other. this battle is BIGGER THAN ALL OF US! so why can we not get along? The anti riaa site as well as this one is trying to educate, and education as we know it can not come from one source, but many. So why dont all sides do what they do best, educate the masses as much as possible and bring down the RIAA. Just MY thoughts!!!!
Vote vote vote vote vote
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EmrldEyzs
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Date: September 30, 2003 @ 3:18 AM
I pay taxes to send my kids to school for an education on Math, Reading, Writing and History. Not the woes of the RIAA and if they come home and tell me they were taught this there's going to be a huge stink at the school board as well as a lawsuit.
It's funny though I must admit because just the other day me and my kids were flipping through the channels and we watched Michelle Branch on Ellen Degenere's show. When she got done Ellen says " Pick up the cd and I hope you don't pay for it" Well then I was surfing the web and found that Michelle Branch is suing her label(Warner) for royalties as is Michael Jackson suing Motown. I believe kids are going to get the truth in the end.
As long as they continue their campaign against their consumers No one in my family will be buying a cd.
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CelticGwen
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Date: September 30, 2003 @ 7:28 AM
I know one thing, my kid will be absent the day they they try to bring this crap into her school. I'm not going to watch the RIAA try to brainwash kids into becoming RIAA customers of the future. I wouldn't let ANY corporation peddle their wares to my kid. (Isn't that what commercials/advertisements are for, haha!)
PS. On the day my kid will be absent to miss the RIAA lecture, we will be home downloading!!!!!
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CelticGwen
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Date: September 30, 2003 @ 8:02 AM
From cnn.com story
"The music community's efforts have triggered a national conversation, especially between parents and kids, about what's legal and illegal when it comes to music on the Internet," RIAA President Cary Sherman said in a statement. "In the end it will be decided not in the courtrooms, but at kitchen tables across the country."
If you are saying its a parents job to educate their children WHY ARE YOU COMING INTO OUR SCHOOLS AND TRYING TO DO IT! YOU SLEEZE!
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purfus
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Date: September 30, 2003 @ 8:49 AM
Unfortunately some of the kids out there may have a better idea than the parents.
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kneo24
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Date: September 30, 2003 @ 10:41 AM
woodhead, I'm getting this 'crap' from other users. I pointed out these issues and more on the yahoo group, and other people told me they had some of the same problems.
This place isn't about the movement. This place is about feeding the egos of some men. If this place was about the movement, it would be doing a lot more. The movement, as is, is very disorganized. The only people so far who have made a real difference lie outside of this pathetic place. I've been here for a year and nothing has changed.
And that yahoo group that you speak so fondly of? It has a lot of the same problems this place does.
I suggest it's time you start looking real hard at some other issues as well.
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