Which future looks good to you?

By goldenpi

First, the Bad and the Ugly ...
With Mp3 quality now inferior to more modern technology and video compression advancing rapidly, the battle to define the future and the next set of media standards is well underway.

Contary to popular belief, mp3 is not a free format. Though the standard is open, the format is patented and there's a royalty for commercial use. The biggest problem, though, is Microsoft. One of the least liked companies in the technology sector who's anti-competative buisness tactics have earned it the nickname 'The Beast of Redmond', is doing its best to take over media formats with its own technology - WMA, WMV and ASF containers and their associated codecs, all propritary in the extreme.

They're governed by licenses so restrictive a developer using the technology can't even write freeware, and with anti-open-source restrictions so extreme that just distributing the program on a CD with OSS would be prevented. Worse, the license also says any programs capable of reading these formats must save only in those formats. Converting a WMA, WMV or ASF file to open standards is extremely difficult.

These standards, because of their restrictive licensing and lack of non-microsoft tools, would never become popular in a 'fair and reasonable' market. Microsoft, though, is not well known for tolerating fair markets. By bundling key software with windows, such as Windows Media Player with its WMA-only CD ripping ability and Windows Movie Maker which saves only in WMV format, Microsoft, is attempting to take over.

It isn't the only company with proprietary media technology, but it's the only one using bundling to cheat its way to the top.

And while open media attempts to establish open, patent- and copyright-free standards, propritary media companies, especially Microsoft, fight dirty to get their patented technology used.

Because Microsoft wants it all. By bundling software with windows and persuading manufactures to build WMA decoders into their products, they are attempting to become the de facto media standard. If Microsoft is successful, the future of digital media will be very unpleasent:

You can still publish your own work - but only if you pay for the software to produce it.

There are no GNU tools available. MS explicitly forbids those.

Anyone trying to use unix can't watch media files because MS won't allow a unix port of the codecs.

Compatability problems are more common because of the DRM system.

Users frequently make backups of their music collection, but when their hard drive dies they discover the backup is useless without the license
files they didn't even know they had.

Artists still make promotional releases on their website, but now they have to deal with the license fees. Because most of them don't understand the license fees, they just don't pay and occasionally Microsoft sends a demand out when one gets too big without paying.

There's only one player - Windows Media Player. A few DVD player manufacturers, pressured by Microsoft, still support WMA and occasionally WMV files. But those players now contain DRM (in addition to the DRM required for CSS) which creates further complications.

Transfering a media file to your portable player is no longer a simple insert-card-and-drag-icon procedure. Now you have to connect up a cable, because cards are considered insecure, and run the propritary, tamperproof and very bloated combination of WMP and the player plugin. You must import the file you want into your media library, and go through the checkout procedure to copy it onto the player. In the process your local copy in the library is make unplayable.

All this to ensure you can't trade music with your friends.

That's the Microsoft future as Microsoft wants it to be.

Now, the Good ...
Now consider this future.

Tools are available free for working with the many and various formats.

Files can be viewed on almost anything.

With no licenses or royalties, every DVD player manufacturer includes support for Vorbis audio.

With open standards, media files can be viewed on windows, linux and the other unix varients, macos, someone will probably port a player to run on mobiles.

Independent artists make their music available free on their websites in Vorbis format. Some publish everything, some release only a few tracks for promotion to encourage CD sales. It's for them to choose but whichever way they go, their tracks include metadata in tags linking to the artist's website so they can be redistributed.

Most media formats are DRM-free, although some companies do produce secure containers and players.

How do you make this future happen?

Never use WM technology. Us ogg vorbis wherever possible. Unlike WMA, OGG files can be easily converted to MP3 for people who use portable MP3-only players. Those of you who use P2P networks, stop sharing proprietary formats: see if you can find some open media formats to share. Anyone who frequently rips CDs or DVDs for p2p, use the vorbis, xvid, ogg and ogm technologies. Not only are you helping secure an open media future, you can also get higher quality audio than MP3 at the same bitrate and avoid the sync problems associated with AVI.

Open media formats such as Vorbis audio compression, xvid video and the OGG and OGM containers have the potential to ensure anyone can safely make and distribute multimedia content without worrying about licensing issues.

These formats are technically superior to the most commonly used standards today. Anyone who's had the audio in an AVI file drift out of sync will recognise the advantages of the OGM container, which can handle VBR vorbisb or MP3 audio as well as multible audio, video and subtitle streams and chapter markers.

So once again, consider the two possibilities:

A future with open media ...
Or a future with media technology dominated by Microsoft ...

You choose.

Goldenpi - excellent piece and well said. I personally have the M$ formats with a passion. The WMA format is an abomination. Although MOV is usually larger in size, it has become a standard for distribution of movie trailers, educational movies, etc., and certainly, is much better than things like asf (again, I dislike that). Goldenpi is completely right about the need to avoid using Windoze (lol)/WindBLOWS media formats.

I like AVIs, but they are usually large, and of course, the Motion Picture Expert Group (MPEGs) format, has become a standard for many videoclips.

The RM (real media) is another option,especially for ultra small or streaming video.

But, again, ANYTHING that helps us avoid the DRM domination inherent in the WMA and WMV file formats, is certain preferable.

DOWN with media players using WM(anything), up w/ open source, and of course, down with the RIAA.
~code

lol I MEANT "hate" the Microsoft WMA format with a passion, NOT "have with a passion" (I think I have mischievous elves in my keyboards that pull the wrong keys down from inside...thus causing my confusing and rampant typos..).

Realmedia performs very well at very low bitrates, it is a streaming codec, but it pays for that by sacrificeing its high bitrate performance. Its players awkward too.

Code, e-mail me with your snail mail so I can send you our CD.

independentm...forgot your email..send me a note at codewarrior_wins@hotmail.com
Thanks in advance.

agreed on RM goldenpi.
And, anyone that buys a new box with that abomination from Hades called
"Windows Media Center Edition" will get a big taste of DRM on it as well.
LOL...if someone downloads a WMA file and play it...Windows Media Center does everything but call the FBI on you...lol

I meant tries to play it, since the DRM will look for a license and decide you have not rights to play it

um.. Microsoft wouldn't mind that, but I think this guy gives them too much credit.

The .wmv and .wma formats have been around for a while and no one uses them, and there are programs out there to convert these files to standard formats.

TMPGEnc is freeware and converts .wmv (among others) to .mpeg files.

The real dictator of media formats is the standards community, and I doubt microsoft will lure all those companies to pay them royalties.

Electric Gypsy gave up on some things, we are gonna send our free CD's to anyone who asks (and absolutely... NO, we will NOT give anyone's addy or info to anybody for any reason!)

We want folks to listen to Electric Gypsy music. Later on, you might decide to BUY an album or ATTEND one of our concerts or something.

Right now, we are underdogs, and we will NEVER sign a contract with evil RIAA companys that "offer" an advance (charged against sales and etc.)

Instead, just ASK me for a CD of our music. We will go into hock and MAIL your a copy of our cover tune CD called "Under The Covers" for free!

If you wanna help out by sending us BLANK recordable CD's so we can keep spreading the music... PLEASE DO

If you wanna stick ONE DOLLAR or TWO in the envelope to help us continue making good NON RIAA music... PLEASE DO

But this CD "Under The Covers" is NOT FOR SALE!!!

It is a GIVE-AWAY to all of you here at boycott-riaa!

NEVER stop this fight, we NEED to win!

Shmoo, Andrea, Ross, of ELECTRIC GYPSY
Support Local and Independent Music!

Ok, y'all need my e-mail addy to be able to e-mail me...

(LAZY BUMS!) lol

electricgypsyband@yahoo.com

(THERE, I just killed my most used e-mail account. Gonna get nothing but webcrawling bots sellin penis enlargement viagra... but if REAL PEOPLE FROM HERE get me an e-mail with addy first, I PROMISE TO GET ONE OF OUR CD'S TO YA ASAP!)

PLEASE, do not list my e-mail elsewhere, I would like to be able to use it again some day

Shmoo..I have a question. I've listened to the downloable tunes from your site, that are covers of songs, and I was wondering about doing covers, even if you don't charge anything. Do the record labels or artists that own the copyrights hassle you about this? I mean, granted you and your group are doing a performance, but, if the tune was written and copyrighted by say,
CREAM (or Eric Clapton, Ginger Baker, Jack Bruce) or they did a cover of an old blues song and you covered their version, is there any copyright infringement? I just was wondering what your practical experience was in this issue.
Thanks.
~code

Excellent! I went to the vorbis site determined to use their products and formats and didn't have a clue what should I download, how to use it and what to use it for. And therefore, I will be forced to keep using the other formats. This what happens when programers don't realize that what they program will be used by non-programers. The fact that I couldn't understand what to do with the stuff they offer on their web-page means it's crap even if it isn't. It also means that I'm an idiot but that is perfectly legal and very common and therefore the software should be written and designed for idiots like me. Open source or not open source, DMC, BMC, WVA, OGG - I don't care and I don't need to care. I want to listen to music and be able to rip and copy easily. That's all. And after visiting their site I have no idea what this Ogg Vorbis is good for. Shame.

Kudos to Electric Gypsy! We need to hear more artists stand up and say "NO THANK YOU RIAA!"

If you want to download music with little risk of lawsuit, simply move files out of your shared folder immediately after download. Files will always be available worldwide anyway, we don't have to get them from servers in the U.S.! There's no need for guilt over lack of sharing in this situation. The RIAA is targeting Americans, now we will target the RIAA. Downloading will continue forever, and cd sales will continue to plummet. RIAA, be careful what you ask for, because you just might get it.

Code, that is a VERY good question,

as of YET, no, we have NOT paid anyone for covering their tunes ... with ONE exception. (Sir Duke, by Stevie Wonder!)

All the rest of the songs are just covers just like we play in the clubs and stuff.

By law, we are ALLOWED to play those covers in a club that pays ASCAP/BMI/etc. (in fact, by REAL WORLD demands, we MUST play covers that are familiar to the customers of said club...only when we are very lucky with a sympathetic club owner are we even allowed to do any originals! Believe me, the RIAA restrictions and monopoly is FAR BIGGER than just on the Internet or Radio!!!)

THAT is why we don't try to sell our CD of covers...

in fact, we are gonna take a BIG LOSS most likely!

You can only give out free CD's untill you are broke...

And that is what Electric Gypsy intends to do!

Only Karma will save us!


Shmoo, of Electric Gypsy

Support Local and Independent Music!

The Sorenson (MOV) files that Apple been tossing around arent so bad, the FFMPEG developers wrote a completely opensource codec that plays these files, even ones encoded with AAC audio streams, yes FAAD is supported by FFMPEG too. MPlayer currently uses FFMPEG as well. FFMPEG is a project that plays and encodes all kinds of formats, obviously m$ WMA/WMV isnt one of them, but MPlayer can play these non DRM'd ones easy since it can use the WIN32 codec dlls.

NCdude, if you want a good (IMO) ripper, go here: http://www.cdex.n3.net/
The only configuration required is what format you want to rip it in (yes it supports ogg). Use the help file that comes with it if you're lost.

To find out if your ISP has a subpoena go to http://www.techtv.com/news/culture/story/0,24195,3484600,00.html

Does anyone know how to stop the default windows media player in IE when you request a radio stream from a website. Or our we stuck with it. I would rather use any other player but have been unable to change it.

Shmoo - Thanks in advance for the CD, and will send a few dollars in the envelope when I get it.

Ron77

Want a good laugh
check this out
RIAA pushes for a ban on .....

http://deadbrain.co.uk/news/article_2003_09_13_5807.php

The royalties on mp3 technology only applies to commercial use and is charged as a percentage of income. If you do not sell mp3 files, you have not made commercial use of the technology.

Since Schmoo is not selling the demo of his band's performances, but giving them away, he is distributing promotional material of his own sound recording. He would have further legal insulation if he would record alternate lyrics turning the songs into parodies, specifically mentioned as fair use in the copyright law.

THanks independentm
I will be looking forward to it, and when our new cd is done, I will send you a copy as.
Ron77 you band rocks.

Does thr RIAA know how much of a joke they have become. Will they ever be seen as anything but a joke. I wonder if saturday nite live will have skits tonite???? I may have to watch just to see if this is so.

"Never use WM technology. Us ogg vorbis wherever possible. Unlike WMA, OGG files can be easily converted to MP3 for people who use portable MP3-only players."

will somebody please hack this place.

ogg converted to mp3 sucks some major elephant dick. wma the same.

if ya want mp3, then download mp3.

Perhaps it is time for musicians, songwriters, singers et al to stop relying on music to 'get them rich and famous' in life and to concentrate on just making a living from it if they can through other ways and means.

Live concerts, merchandising and selling directly to the public rather than through greedy middlemen.

If you have talent it will surely shine through and the fans will give you support. Of course there will ALWAYS be those who want it for free. But those are usually not real fans anyhow.

The problem is that everyone wants to be a pop/rock star and I saee those days as limited now. Manufactured pop stars are the scum of the earth. They are purely there to make money for third parties.

Lets dump this crap and bring the REAL music back!

RE: www.deadbrain.com. the RIAA thinks they can pull the plug on everybody
(LOL). all they are doing is pulling the plug on themselves. they know that they are like the great titanic, and we all know what happened to the titanic (LOL).

CODE RED! CODE RED...umm I mean Codewarrior, I am trying to write a damned letter to my paper here and I fear I have really screwed it up, would you be willinbg at your leisure of course, to proffread it and add anything you think it might need?

Rythmmethod@rock.com

might wanna proofread that previous post..unnnhhh

ron77
This is how I changed the default player for windows media.

1. when the windows media player opens,,click Media Options
2.click settings
3.uncheck play web media in the bar
4.check ask for preferred types
5.click reset preferred types then click yes
6.then when you click on the stream link a box will come up asking you to open or save -- click open --- and choose which program you want to use to play the stream.

Thats how I did it. I hope it works for you.

damn I keep forgetting about putting a space after a period. sorry

Thanks NiteRider

Will try that.

Ron77

OK for you streamers out there, I posted this awhile back, but I'll share it again. Streambox VCR Suite. Ripper included.

http://www.afterdawn.com/software/video_software/video_capture_tools/streambox_vcr_suite.cfm

DeadMan2003, I totaly agree. Read this article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/14/technology/14MUSI.html?ex=1064116800&en=5c9a7eb79932d782&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

The Recording Industry Association says there has been a 31 percent drop in sales of recorded music since file sharing became popular more than three years ago, but statistics from Forrester Research show that the sales decline since 2000 has been half that, or 15 percent, and that 35 percent of that amount is because of unauthorized downloading.
(See, the RIAA lies about the amount of $ they're losing and why they are losing it to try and get sympathy for their cause. This says that they have only lost 15% of sales and of that 15% they lost only 35% of it was caused by MP3 file sharing)

Much of the stated concern over file sharing has centered on the revenue that record companies and musicians are losing, but few musicians ever actually receive royalties from their record sales on major labels, which managers say have accounting practices that are badly in need of review. (Artists do not receive royalties for a CD until the record company has earned back the money it has spent on them.)
Even the Backstreet Boys, one of the best-selling acts of the 1990's, did not appear to have received any CD royalties, their management said.
"I don't have sympathy for the record companies," said Mickey Melchiondo of the rock duo Ween. "They haven't been paying me royalties anyway."
Musicians tend to make more money from sales of concert tickets and merchandise than from CD sales. In fact, many musicians offer free downloads of their songs on their Web sites to market themselves.
(The RIAA whines and cries about the poor starving songwriters and artists not getting paid and they don't even pay them anyway. The musicians who are for, or don't care about, MP3 file sharing, like KISS, Dave Matthews Band, and Disturbed know that they don't see any $ from the RIAA anyway so they focus on performing these very good live shows that sell out arenas. That's how they get paid. Anyone downloading their music will just have that extra $15 to spend on a concert ticket. If you'll notice, these artists who are against this don't have any real talent and can't perform live.)

P.S. So proud of Disturbed for standing up. I just saw them at Ozzfest and they put on an amazing live show. If any of you ever get they chance, GO SEE THEM.

Hey every one go to this site, and the cd that you would like to buy but wont
due to our movement, let the artist and every one else know why you will not be buying. I will look for more sites like this.
Or take wamtumps ( I know I know I didn't spell it right) cue and go to their website and let them know how you feel and you will not be buying

http://www.antimusic.com/reviews/cd/2002/april/12s.shtml

Sorry to get off post, but we need to let the artist know we will not support them by any means we can, get their attention

It's ironic. I hate being conventionalized, ossified, being locked in to certain rules.

And yet, 2/3 of the music I have (ie that I have ripped) is in .wma. Why, I hear you cry? Because the sound is superior. I have tested on my hifi, and I find wma superior to mp3.

But.

Ogg Vorbis is also just as good! And it's open source! Whoopee, we're saved!
Except:

Where are the players, the rippers?

I came across a player about 4/5 years ago which played .ogg -- sonic foundry something or other (the company which makes Acid, amongst others). They had an excellent player, years before wmp and winamp took over. But it disappeared. Since then, I haven't (easily) found another player.

Microsoft are very, very annoying. They have some of the best programmers around. Bill himself is fantastic. But they've become all messed-up and power crazy! If only they would be willing to sacrifice some of that $49billion cash pile, then perhaps we would see less restriction, and greater freedom of choice.

As for their "passion" ....no company with over a few hundred employees has a passion. Well, the employees might, but the brass never ever do.

~"I just wanna feel, real love..."~
::The world is your oyster....uncooked and shut::

a BIT off topic, but I GOTTA get this off my chest.
I'm just really, really proud our guy,Mr. Bill Evans, and this site which chipped in to send him, had the guts to travel half way across the country, and stand up on air for what he (and we) believe in. Cary-Sue, didn't have the guts to travel to the show, or to allow ANYONE from the RIAA as a representative, to appear, despite TechTV begging them to appear.

So, for all the RIAA people out there,
your side obviously, are too cowardly to show up to debate the issue, and I honestly believe you KNOW your side is morally bankrupt in this issue.

Our side showed up, stood up, and "represented" with dignity, honesty, and articulated with reason.

So, res ipsa loquitur Cary-Sue, Latin for "the thing speaks for itself"
~code

Excuse me if this link has already been posted.

http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2003/commentary030912ram.htm

good for them. they have talent and deserve to get money for thier works.

i think that in 3-5 years linux will so closely resemble linux by microsofts fault for using unix that linux will be able to run just about any microshaft program and still be the best operating system in existence.

btw dont worry about palladium, when released hackers the world over will reverse engineer it make a counter program (or tell it to fry windows machines) and then proceed to drive microsoft into the floor with nonstop hacks and virus programs

Code, regarding the show, I heard you had written it up, but does anyone have a video of it? I'd like to see it. I can also mirror it on my server.


It's amazing how the corporations can hide for fear of damaging themselves, but that they often hide when hiding is the worst damage they can do. Are we hiding? You bet not. Are we winning? You bet.

~You're walking a fine line...you're living on borrowed time...~

mrbonzo supposedly taped it, and he i think is making copies to videotape and just asks for shipping I think, but if you leave an email address, he can contact you to get your snail mail and give you details. I contacted TechTV and asked if they will be making it available for streaming download, but no answer yet. There are some others talking about uploading it to servers, so I'm not sure where that is standing right now.

WMA..... EW

I'm sorry, but I can't wait for microsoft to release their DRM encoded content, only to have some hacker buy a song for .99 and figure out how to strip it of the DRM and encryption(if any). Then we can all laugh at them.

Beansprout, most current players support ogg. I'm using an old version of winamp and it has ogg support. I suggested a ripper earlier. You obviously have not bothered to look very hard lately.

Kneo24, personal players, eg. IPOD etc... don't support it from what I understand. If there is, someone post al link

kneo24: Thank you for the link. I downloaded the program and installed it and it didn't work. I don't know why but it can't recognize any of my CD drives. Bad program - maybe in the next version they will try harder. But thank you anyway.

JoeConsumer
Good article thanx

http://www.neurosaudio.com/press/news_item.aspx?itemID=160

Ogg Vorbis firmware beta released
07.01.03 Digital Innovations

Open source foundation Xiph.org, founders of the Ogg Vorbis codec, released the first beta of Neurosetta, the firmware upgrade that makes the Neuros the first portable hard drive player to support Ogg Vorbis playback.

Download and release notes are available at http://www.xiph.org/neurosetta.

At this time the firmware plays back Ogg Vorbis only and will disable MP3 playback support. The full integrated version will allow playback of both file types. Like all betas, there are known issues, including possible skipping on high-bitrate files (over 200kps). Please read the documentation and instructions carefully before downloading to your device, and go to http://bugs.xiph.org to report problems.

Just last month Xiph released Positron 1.0, completing the first version of a synch application that will allow the Neuros to interface with the Linux operating system.

For details and downloads of Positron, go to www.xiph.org/positron.

In February, 2003, Neuros Audio and Xiph.org entered into an agreement to develop Vorbis playback and Linux support for the Neuros line of Digital Audio Computers.

The joint project, dubbed "NeuRosetta," will make the Neuros HD the first hard drive-based portable to support the open source Ogg Vorbis format, preferred by Linux users and the open source community at large for its superior sound quality at lower bit rates. The agreement also called for the development of Positron, which was just released to beta.

Ogg Vorbis playback will be available as a simple upgrade to the Neuros firmware (the software that runs the device) for current Neuros owners and the final version of Positron, like the beta, will be available online. There will be no charge for either.

megawoot, nothing was said about personal players.

NCdude, I'm starting to tire of your passive aggressive rhetoric. If you expect help, you need to drop it. As far as the program not working, it's more than likely a problem on your end. What error did it give? I believe that site has a forum to ask questions specifically about that stuff. If not, I'm pretty sure they have an e-mail address.

Off-topic but important. I was just browsing on KaZaA and noticed a lot of user names popping up with the @RIAA attachment. I'm not sure what this really means but they were pushing [enhanced] versions of songs. Be careful out there guys.

I prefer the new ISO standard, MPEG-4, and have been recompressing my entire CD library in .MP4 audio format using the excellent NERO 6 encoder. Since it is an ISO standard, it will become as common as MP3, MPEG-2, NTSC, etc have been over the next decade or so. You have the quality of state of the art compression, along with the defacto audio standard (virtually every hardware manufacturer will be adding MP4 support.)

$0.02

just so everyone is aware a new phoenix company SunnComm Technology sells anti- piracy software just got a contract to make copy-management Technology available to BMG,the music division of Bertelsmann AG. It lets BMG,owner of labels as arista Records and RCA records control the number of times a compact disc is copied while preventing songs from being E-mailed or swapped on file sharing services. the makers of the records will decide how many times a perticular CD can be copied say maybe three to six times and the CD's will be encoded accordingly the first singersong writer from arista Anthony Hamilton Due out Sept.23.
So as I was saying as far back as six months ago they were going to do this and more including CD's that erase themselves after they have been tried to be copied on . pass this on Cd music is gonna be junk now not just filler crap.

Finally, someone else has noticed this. When Mediaplayer 9 came out, it had the phone home capability within it. Started getting messages about some wma files. I either converted them or destroyed them. From that day forward I will not allow a wma file to be d/led or played on my computer. Needless to say, Mediaplayer 9 is not my player of choice anymore either. However, true to the Microsoft tradition, eliminating the player from your system is not an easy task. You will find that there is no remove for this software in remove programs, no uninstall, and most likely removing this player will hinder other applications from working. It isn't like they are leaving you a choice as to it being on your computer. That doesn't mean I have to use it. Eliminating the associations, by installing another player will ensure that it does not jump at the chance to be used.

They may demand it be bundled in the software, that doesn't mean I will chose to use it. It has went into the corner I reserve for the unpopular programs of my choice. I no longer have wma files in songs. All were erased with a government level erase program. Fortunately, there are also no songs the RIAA will be interested in either. They too, left the building...

I hate the m s crap ! I can't believe some of the stuff they try to pull .Right now I stick to mp3 as I got a car stereo that would take that format..geez..I hate when everyone switches formats...lol..costs too much nightdreamerxp was reading an article on that also. Hopefully if and when that happens, someone will find a way around it.

jnsnlace

Ogg Vorbis (man I love how it rolls off the tongue...) has been around for a little while, and is very, very popular with linux developers. Personally I don't use it since I feel MP3 is much more versatile (for the time being). But the whole WMA format makes me sick.

MP4 is exciting, but I'm not familiar with it yet.

In any case, WMA will be on it's way out the door once DRM computers take hold of the market and people realize they can't play their own damn music files w/o paying a fee, or getting sued. In that instance, Ogg Vorbis will become the de facto standard, and rightfully so.

Goldenpi, et al:

Although I would concur with your criticism of the DRM and Closed Standards system (incidentally related), I personally do not believe the Microsoft-blaming is going to do any good. The scenarios described are unfounded and exxagerated.

I agree, Microsoft's tactics can be quite aggressive. However, compared to other players, Microsoft is in contrast the MOST developer friendly. If you're looking for unfair business tactics, try retail. Developer-unfriendly software? You should be looking at SCO.

"CodeWarrior" - if you truly fit the name, you should already understands the theoretical/mathematical advantages of Windows Media over Real... same for "Goldenpi". Just look at the file sizes - or ask an audiophile.

I personally have a strong dislike for DRM and try not to purchase or support any type of principle that involves use or operational restriction. However, there is an exception for Windows Media: with Windows Media, you are given the right to disabela utomatic license acquisition and to view the negotiated license terms beofre accepting them. Not exactly 100% fair, but it's better than Real's so-called solution.

Another one of my favourite services, although I don't care for the elitist "Mac-Only" attitude, is the Apple Music Store. While most of the music there is RIAA - and I admit to purchasing Matchbox Twenty, sorry - there are some decent albums. The DRM is static, but decent.

But I suppose it's all in opinion. There is no real answer, but in terms of consumer interests, I think it would be best to let the market decide.

Wang Daniel
www.AnimeTheory.com

the NY Times wrote a great story today, you have to register, which is free, to read it, but here is the link http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/14/technology/14MUSI.html?pagewanted=2&ex=1064203200
somewhere in there they say that sales are down 30%, but another group says it's really only down 15%, and 35% of THAT number is because of file-sharing. isn't' it great how the riaa can skew numbers, or omit facts to make it seem like we are the bad guys when they are going against 60million+ americans? they will not sway the vote in their favor, they shall loose, and they smell the rot of death approaching, and they fear it

I think you all might get a kick out of this:

http://www.boners.com/grub/789342.html

Well thank god for communism

I've been OGG man for awhile now. For those complaining about rippers and such you must not be looking. DbPowerAMP under windows is simple. click it, pick your wanted output type, pick tracks and save location, let her rip. Of course with linux you can play them in XMMS and a number of others. GRIP will rip just fine. Click tracks and click rip and encode.

NCdude...

Yea, I know, when you get into brand new software technology, it's almost like you have to be a programmer in order to use it. I agree that things need to be more user friendly, but don't give up man!! Things will get easier with time as more programmers move from proprietary software development, to the "free" or "open" software development communities. This will take time, just hang on and be patient ; - )



danielwang…

“I agree, Microsoft's tactics can be quite aggressive. However, compared to other players, Microsoft is in contrast the MOST developer friendly.”

This is where Microsoft and other proprietary software developing companies really kick you in the balls. They create software that “hooks” people, not too unlike a drug. Right when they think they’ve got you hooked really well, that’s when the kicking begins.

I will do everything I can to drive DRM and proprietary software away. If that means switching files to a non-proprietary format, then, that’s what I’ll do, but right now I’m too busy with other small battles on the warfront.

~goingnova

I never said MS technology is poor. WMA quality is certinly better than MP3. MS video codecs used to be the best on the market until divx was released, and the early versions of that were actually just MS codecs hacked to work in AVI files, not just WMV. The point is that MS technology is very propritary, works only on platforms MS supports and is designed for lock-in. Open media formats now provide quality at least equal to, often superior to, WM technology.

Also, MS is not the only company attempting to establish propritary, lock-in media technology. Its just the only one succeeding because of the advantage it gains from bundleing. Ive seen other attempts. Realmedia successfully prevented the sale of streambox ripper and streamox VCR. My mobile phone uses some strange format with the extension "3GP" which aparently views on only one player, the player supplied with the phone, and is very difficult to convert. BskyB designed entirely new technology for their digital sat TV, largely so that only BsB can manufacture (or license others to manufacture) equipment capable of decodeing their signal, thus giving them total control over what hardware can be used to view sky TV. This way they can ensure all sky decoders have a modem with automatic phone-home capability, and that the digital stream is always decrypted and decompressed on the same chip.

Microsoft is devloper friendly, as long as those devlopers work to microsofts conditions, such as never releaseing source code. Remember MS threatened to sue the devloper of Virtualdub because it was able to convert ASF files to open standard AVIs.

Windows Media Player is capable of playing Ogg Vorbis or OGM video files. You just need to install a directshow filter. Ive got one that works. I assume MS doesn't like this, but theres nothing they can do about it.

kneo24 and kyodylee, thanks for the info/links.

You're right, I haven't looked much lately. But I have been very, very busy, so don't berate me too much.

Kneo, please don't be too terse with people. We're all on the same side.

Great thread folks.. I learned a lot!!

If The RIAa or anyone else thinks that I will buy another complete set of Cds or whatever every time we have a format change they have another think coming!!!!!!!

I got suckered when we went from vinyl into buying many duplicate cds. That won't happen again!

Beansprout, you're right. I shouldn't have been quite so rude to you, but NCdude on the other hand... Well I can't help but be rude his passive agressive stance that he has.

danielwangp i was talking PREFERENCES and the fact that WMA will refuse to play if you don't have a license (have seen it do this) and this doesn't happen with MP3. I don't believe I said anything about "technical" superiority, bitartrates or anything else. In my opinion, because of the other baggage, WMA SUCKS and that has nothing to do with whether it is technically better or sounds better or anything...and my name does not necessarily deal with writing code...as you know if you didn't ASSUME, laws are called codes too.,,
and as MOST people around here who READ my posts know, I am fairly well versed in the law. COOL>? Sorry, but your opinion really carries little weight w/ me bro!
~code

and, to avoid any confusion, I am NOT associated in any way w/ Metrowerks, who put out CodeWarrior software "Integrated development tool suite for developing C/C++ and Java applications for Macintosh and Windows". Part of my heritage is Native American, hence the "warrior" part, and sometimes, when I talk, some of what I say has a double meaning, hence it is in "code". Therefore, I am the "Code" "Warrior"...geez, I hate when people assume things!
~Cheshire Cat...all that was left of him was his smile

danielwang - sorry for the typo...should not have had the "p" on the end...who knows where the p came from...
"Perfection and I continue to be strangers, for perfection is like an impenetrable barrier, offering no opening for the spirit to escape"
~CodeWarrior / 2003

The uncharacteristically snotty post from me shows that we can give snide comebacks, and I think everyone should try to be as civil as possible. Danielwang, sorry for having to post a nasty note, but NONE of us needs to be condescending on this board, nor cop an attitude. None of us knows how much experience or knowledge the other has in any area, and condescending attitudes NEED to be left at the door. To be honest, with as much loud music as I've heard , and with my age, my ability to detect high notes and very sophisticated differences in format quality, probably are next to nothing. My opposition to M$'s WMA format is more political than anything. M$ is a corrupt bunch of aholes (in my opinion) who would love nothing more than controlling everything you do on your computer (after all, what are "permissions" on a box if not controls). So, I don't give a rat's ass about what is "technically" superior, if it doesn't play because of DRM issues, it could be the most
technically superior file format the world has ever seen and I still wouldn't want it.
OK?
ok!
As Ali G would say...
"RESPECT"
~code

Lets all link hands and chant

I have an older version of VirtualDub that allows you to convert them nasty ASF to AVI files. Run 'em thru there then run them thru TMPGenc, burn them and watch them on my nice little $59 Apex.

F*** the RIAA and the MPAA too!

go code go!

and everyone, always remember:

United WE Stand

this is what is giving us power over them, our shear numbers are hurting them DEEP in the pocketbooks, sure they have large bank accounts, but they way they are spending it's only a matter of time till thats dry also, yes i understand there are diffrences in quality between ogg, mp3 *hell it's old mpeg 1 layer 3, give it a break!* and wav and wma. for the most part you rip music in MP3 using VBR with a peak of 360kps, and a low of 60kps, then you will have a much better rip then if you went with a WMA of the same size, thats the reason i rip everything in vbr, only uses the bitrate where it needs it, and most songs really don't don't need as much as most people think, the only time you need the high bitrates is when you have higher souding instruments, or more of them, very simple, but anyway, what do i know, only have 20+ years of computer experence

United WE Stand

WMA and Vorbis can use VBR encodeing as well. WMA network streams usually use CBR through. Also, VBR in an AVI container is very unreliable. It tends to lose sync easily, and there are some compatability issues as it bends the spec. Thats one of the main advantages of the OGM container.

TMPGEnc opens WMV and ASF files using directshow input. That works, but the ASF directshow filter has a playback speed limiter so its slow.

LOL..with you all the way Draken!

~code

"M$ is a corrupt bunch of aholes (in my opinion) who would love nothing more than controlling everything you do on your computer (after all, what are "permissions" on a box if not controls)"

Amen, Code.

~"Another bruise to try and hide, another p2p-ed file to hide..."~

pi, yes they can, but from personal experence *though i haven't delt with either much since i found a great MP3 riping tool* is that it doesn't react as fast as the MP3 on VBR, and if you are playing it though a good reciver/speaker setup you can hear the increase in the bitrate, where with mp3 you don't *shrugs* and as for avi/asf and the ilk, i don't watch movies on my computer. why would i when i have a 32" tv less then 3 feet from my computer at the same height and turned to face me with a dvd player hooked up to that

and on another note, in 2.5ish hours i get to meet with rep. fred upton, r-mi 6th district and see what his views are, and to let him know that the cash cow called the riaa is not going to be able to spend as much on anyones campaign in the future, so i'll be back later to post how that goes

United WE Stand

Greetings fellow boycotters...today I'm taking to the streets of Georiga in a small boycott RIAA

Greetings fellow boycotters..today I'm taking to the streets of Georgia, in an effort to publicize this site, and inform people of the RIAA. If possible I need a little background info. First I need a few questions cleared. My points will be that the RIAA has twice been caught price-fixing on it's customers, and as such how can we allow such a coporation with such a record so much power, 2, that they care only for profits due to the fact that their sue them all campagin is NOT actually going to the artist, though they claim that is why they are suing in the first place, bottom line is they're concerned about THEIR profits.
As solutions I suggest boycotting music CD's, consider Indie Music, purchase used CD's, attend band concerts as that is how they make their money, and the use of compulsory liscence. However, can someone give me details on the compulosary liscense systems.
What do you think, feedback would be appreciated as I don't leave for another hour or so..
Dave.

sorry i cant help you dave but you might try doing a google search and see what pops up

Great ripper and file converter at

http://www.poikosoft.com/

MP3 spectral analysis information here

http://www.cdadapter.com/mp3.htm

I agree.Open source needs to be supported,or else Microsoft will own everything.I was wondering...Can Winamp play ogg vorbis?If so,I'll go and convert all my mp3's to ogg vorbis.

WMA and WMV files are a total waste. Long live the MP3!

------------------------------
http://www.cafeshops.com/shirt_sarcasm.7438717
Don't take shit from the RIAA, they killed your inner child!

Yes, winamp can play ogg vorbis. At least, the version I last used could. I dont know which version support was introduced in, so if it doesn't you need to upgrade. Ogg vorbis is slowing becomeing more supported. Many software players can handle it, and even some portables now. Compatability isn't too serious an issue, because only two utilities are needed to convert ogg vorbis to mp3 for playing on non-vorbis portables. WMA makes that much harder. I remember MS actually demanded Winamp disable plugin support during WMA playback in case someone made a record-to-disk plugin

I use WMP for audio playback. The old media player 6.4, back from before MS started adding the hundreds of unwanted bloating features like libraries, stream presets and skins. I dont use it for video through, I discovered VideoLAN performs much better, espicially at full screen. Apart from an unpredictably buggy slider, its an ideal player.

Converting MP3s to vorbis is a bad idea, because you get the artifacts from both. Poor quality. Its ok if you just want compatability, because you can then use a very high-bitrate MP3, but its bad for archiveing or redistribution.

Just to clear up the names, "Vorbis" is the audio codec, "Ogg" is the container usually used to hold audio in vorbis format. Vorbis can be used outside of an ogg container, such as in a network stream or as the audio in an OGM file. The combination of vorbis audio in an ogg container is an "ogg vorbis" file.

The open-source audio editor Audacity can work with WAV or Ogg Vorbis audio files. Very usful tool.

I know for a fact winamp version 2.80 and later supports ogg. Don't convert your MP3's directly to ogg! They will sound worse, not better that way. If you have the CD's do the ripping into ogg.

i use win amp 2.8 with madd plugin works great. http://www.3dsoundsurge.com/features/articles/MP3/MP3.html
at the end of the article you'll find all you will need to rip encode play mp3tager all free. i found that eac is one of the best ripper around it free also. i disabled ms media crap even thou it does still run in the back ground fire wall will never let it out .

http://www.chrismyden.com/nuke/modules.php?op=modload&name=Elite_DAE&file=painless
eac you can get above follow his way and if yiou do not like it try another way

didn't know where to post this, so going to put it in a couple places, this is *imho* a MUST read article!
http://www.msnbc.com/news/966393.asp?0bl=-0

I'm a 17 year old and soon as I can, I'm dropping M$ xp in favor of Linux. But then again I can't complain about something that's free (My dad bought it for the computers in the house). Wait a minute I just did, and I'm proud of it.

I just want to say, I've always used M$ OS's, and once I did do a Red Hat install, and the amount of software bundled with Red Hat is pretty big too, such as Konquerer, MySQL, PostgreSQL, and many others (I just needed a test PostgreSQL server, so I didn't really fiddle with the machine at all).

I say both OS's are highly guilty of bundling extra's, Micro$oft is just "better" at making it function as a monopoly.

Goldenpi- brilliant article. I completely agree. Of course, we all know that Microsoft, like any other mega company, wants to be at the top of the Second Gilded Age. They're already ahead of the RIAA in terms of technology. Nevertheless, Microsoft isn't so bad. Linux just needs to present a stronger challenge, which it is. Level the playing field. Capitalism works- usually

DOWN with the RIAA!

:-:~ PhantomGhost ~:-:

Linux bundles everything for convenience, not to gain market share. Also, many applications can be bundled for one purpose. Konqueror, lynx, netscape and some form of ozilla browser, both abiword and openoffice word processors, etc. The user still gets choice. And of course, those applications mostly use open standards. When MS bundles its usually because they want to gain some marketshare for a propritary technology unfairly.

Oh no! My name's on the list! Whatever shall I do????

kazaaliteuser@Kazaa

mrjake, you serious, man? you don't sound too worried, though. good for you.

Listen folks! We have a LOT to deal with now. This, that, and the other thing.

Have you noticed that The RIAA is obviously culture jamming? Well, they did not come up with the idea. Monkey see, monkey do.

Now, when you donwnload the wrong version of a song, one you wanted somebody to hear, etc., you get music POISONED by the very people who claim to be behind and and who bring it to you. Do you understand that? They are taking the songs, looping them, and filling them with noise. Does that say anything to you about what is important to them? It can't be the music, ey?

What if somebody did that to any other work of art? Would you say, "Oh, all is fair in love and war!" or would you see it as a statement that he art and the purity of the expression is something they can take a greedy corporate magic marker to and draw all over it as THEY PLEASE? So now, we can be sure, every RIAA blooper filled file is a sure travesty. It is a vile, heartless statement.

The RIAA is certainly culture jamming! They are jamming anything left of culter they may have had. That noise I hear? Its them. Its the voice of a greedy demon and it is code for RIAA, over and over. What a sad thing that they could not see that their greed and ignorance is creating their own end. And they shure had their chance, and the money to do what ever they needed to make a better way.

Goodbye RIAA. Sadly, you really blew it in so many ways, it makes you look childish in the face of your listeners. Someday, a glitch or any noise in a sound file might get: "Ah yeah, there were some RIAA's in the file, sorry!" Don't think it will stand the test of time as anything good for you. You are currently branding yourself as a Napoleon or a Hitler. Both tried to conquer in the most rediculous and forceful ways, and both LOST in the way.

GO MUSIC LOVERES! DIE OUT SOON RIAA! We are going to win this! We ARE winning this. Culture jam us! We can't be. We are not as small as you and so your jamming is just a bit of fuzz in our navels.

When I hear the noise you make, I just keep downloading until I find the right file. See? You are a bump in the road RIAA, but nothing more. I am glad you don't live next door to me.

But, RIAA, don't think you are making any good PR for the artists and labels you are exploiting, okay? I keep that in mind as I watch what you do. I simply hope the artists understand that you are a cruel and unusual master and they will have to find a way out of their contracts while you KILL their public with your ignorance. I hope you get a contract before you don't matter enough to!

BOYCOTT RIAA! I REFUSE to buy anthing from any company related to the RIAA Gestapo this holiday! How about YOU?