Oxford Union Debate - This House believes that "the free music mentality is a threat to the future of music."

This was a debate held at the Oxford Union on Thursday 24th October. For the speakers, see the debate page.

Final vote was:
Ayes - 72
Noes - 256

---

Under the watchful eye of Dave Green from NTK, several of us met up in the Lamb & Flag before the debate, and trooped in together. Impressively, we had about as many members as non, so getting everyone in wasn't nearly as tough as we'd expected it to be. Since we arrived about 8pm, we sat through a rather confusing debate, where it seemed that neither the (very quiet) chair or the speakers quite knew which side they were arguing for...Then, about 8:40 the speakers for the main debate wandered in.

The proposition had Nick Pacheco (Christchurch College), Hilary Rosen (RIAA), Chris Wright (Chrysalls) and Jay Berman (IFPI). The opposition had Will Harris (Keble College), Nick King (Nielsen Entertainment), Doug D'Arcy (Chrysalls) and Ronnie Gurr (various). (A few union members also spoke for both sides during the floor debate.)

I won't endeavour to recount the entire debate, just some of my thoughts on it and what I thought were some of the highlights. The Union made a video recording of the entire thing, which may or may not eventually get put online (you could try asking the Union President, David Watson about it, I suspect the more requests they get the more like it is to get online). Dave Green also made a tape recording of the event, that will probably make it online soonish, provided the quality is good enough.

---

So, some of the more memorable bits included:

• Hilary Rosen saying "Actually, no copy protected CDs have been released in the US" ( really? really?)


• Hilary Rosen asks "Put up your hand if you download and burn music" (most hands go up). She then asks "Keep you hand up if you buy more music because of it" (many stay up). She gets worried and immediately asks some different and confusing set of people to put their hands up, causing everyone to look miffed, and everyone putting their hand down)


• Hilary Rosen nodding like a pigeon for most of the time


• Every opposition speaker getting at least one in-promptu applause during their speeches, only one proposition speaker getting one (and that was for taking the piss out of a union hack)


• The leader of the opposition appearing to have read
  http://uk.eurorights.org/issues/cd/bad/ based on many of his comments (i.e. he said many of the things that were on the leaflets we had to hand out)


• One of the proposition reading out several verses of "Thank you for the music" by Abba. We got the point after the first verse, but we then stated to wonder if he had permission from the rights holder, or was he simply claiming "fair use"?


• The proposition trying to defend the vast profits they make on many CDs sales, and trying to make themselves look philanthropic about many of the artists they take on


• The proposition keep claiming "you can't have/make music without the music industry" and then not letting anyone speak to point out the inaccuracy of this


• Everyone (yup, both sides, but more so the opposition) laying into the likes of Pop Stars, Pop Idols etc


• The quality of the examples/figures etc given by both sides. The proposition kept pulling out these massive numbers on falling sales, the opposition pointed out which areas were falling and which were growing (quite insightful, and hardly surprising).


• One of the opposition speakers telling us about his recent music shopping experiences (including how he'd been in HMV buying a couple of CDs, and the people in front of him in the queue who were buying several CDs were also talking about how to download various P2P clients).


• One of the proposition giving figures on the Linkin Park album (sales, downloads etc), the leader of the opposition saying he'd personally downloaded it and then gone out and bought it, asking for the figures of how many people who'd downloaded it had bought it, and being told "I have no figures, and nor do you" by the proposition, nicely ignoring the fact that they both then had a figure showing that 100% of people surveyed there who'd downloaded had also bought...


• Jay Berman probably being the best proposition speaker, and coming out with the insigtful "Each generation has had their own music. For your generation it's filesharing. And I think thats a pretty terrible thing"


• Ronnie Gurr being good once he'd warmed up (Martin has more on him on his page)


• The votes (a massive landslide for the opposition, with 72 Ayes to 256 Noes)


• Hilary Rosen almost voting against the motion (you vote by walking out the correct door, and she wasn't paying any attention)


• Alastair's photo (the others) of Hilary Rosen talking to someone wearing a
  Corrupt Audio T-Shirt, and appearing to be reading it.


• Us clapping and cheering Hilary Rosen and friends as they left, and them appearing not to get the sarcasm (this being a scant 20 minutes after we were giving fliers to everyone leaving the debate


• Discovering that one of our number was a Dave Green on TV fan, while queueing up for Kebabs.

Oh, and a few other things that currently escape me. I might write them here later...

---

Links of some possible relevance

• The Oxford Union


• Union page on the debate


• Martin Llloyd's page on the debate


• Alastair's photos from the debate

---

wow thats alot to read! furst post

Excellent news. Makes me think that the RIAA wasn't even prepared or even did any real insight sort of research before they commited money to a lost cause. I do think the cost of a cd these days is ridiculously expensive (mostly due to the 'music industry') and I find that if I am a true fan of a band/artist I will go out and fork out the cash for the music. P2P music sharing helps broaden musical tastes and if the 'music industry' actually gave some thought into this, they could use it to their (and our, as consumers) advantage.

As for Hilary Rosen just about walking out the wrong door, meethinks she was a bit befuddled by the truth of the matter and if we could monitor what she does, she will probably become a 'downloader' just as we are (if she already hasn't started before).

first post? not much of a first post there....

This is really funny....

I liked that comment about Hilary nodding her head like a pigeon. She did the same thing at the Future of Music Policy Summit in January. I wasn't thinking pigeon though it was more like those little dogs you set in your rear window whose head bobs up and down constantly Like this one: https://www.nghsecure.com/~leviath/images/doggy6.gif

nice, admins can even edit their own posts, interestink

Link didnt' show up I keep fergiting no html in news comments

tis music to my ears. RIAA FREE MUSIC!! MAHAHAHAHAHA!

fianlly someone grasps the meaning of this...

yeasssss!!! oh yeah not to menation janet jackson's stupid "not for you" cd that messed up my computer when I tried to just play it in there to see if it had music vids on there and it locked up liek 10 times!!! arrrgg!!!!

aweome articale though!!! very informative!!!

i didn't read the whole article.

i didnt read it yet. to tired tomorow I will

I liked the part about the hands going up, and not coming down. Too bad moments like that aren't televised.

In the most clear way this shows the clock is ticking on the big 5, tick..tick...tick

Now thats music to my ears!!!!!
By the way, CDC-MP3, this is your alter
ego DCD-MP3 sayin wzup!!!

I don't understand what exactly the debate was over... and what exactly was the outcome and what does the outcome mean or does it mean anything? Why was this debate held. I think a little explanation of this in the article would have been helpful.

Never mind, I understand it now, it is just too late for me, time for bed.

Why is the head of the RIAA at a debate in England???

Because she is big pals with Jay Berman the head of the IFPI which is based in London. Berman is the former head of the RIAA and recommended Hilary to the board as his replacement. Check out http://www.boycott-riaa.com/rogues/jberman.php for more info on Jay Berman

hi dcd-mp3!!! he he.....

this is the most pleasing thing i have read in nearly a year.

and may hilary rosen rot in her grave

meep

Who let that bitch in my country?

Shows how much public opinion they listened to first

Mcarp555,
The Oxford Union is a debate society that has opened it's doors to a wide realm of issues. Why was Mrs. Rosen there? The recording industry hoped to strengthen their position in the current debate over p2p through a highly respected organization. The IFPI, as said by thumbtack, has very close connections with RIAA. Furthermore this is not just an American issue, we work in the www.whatever and file sharing is a global system of information distibution.
For The Rest,
Now is the time to strengthen the independent artist community, an unfair industry is getting hit hard, and for good reason. Anyone out there that would like to discuss this further with me can contact me directly at ethan@oatpublishing.com
I got a kick out of Mrs. Rosen's denial of copy protected cd's released in the US. This was very reminiscent of the tactic used by the representative from BMI when I publicly queried him about their royalty dispersal at an event hosted by BMI. Even when I held up aq standard BMI contract(a valid one with my name on it and theirs) and showed him the section on royalty dispersal, I was informed that that was not the practice at BMI. I tried repeatedly to get an answer to the question but was simply told that it wasn't true. Still got the contract, checked against dozens of others, all the same. Denial is the defense of children and rouges, it is a sad statement on the state of the domestic music industry when this form of public doublespeak becomes a valid debate technique. I applaud The Oxford Union for hosting this debate. It is too bad we don't have such a forum here in Austin, I would love to sink my teeth into that BMI rep again.
I have to send some promo off to Bryansk, Russia now. A student with the Agricltural university downloaded some mp3s of my band and has requested a cd and contact information to book us there. You gotta love this tiny planet we are living on.
Yer PAl Ethan

Death to Rosen! Stupid woman! doesn't know her ass from her elbow! She's like a puppet on the end of a string. Time to cut those strings of hers and put her out of her misery!

Long Live P2P!

P2P can not be stopped.