(Also, do NOT forget to read between the lines! Some of the people "quoted" on this are speaking THIRD hand with flavors BEYOND the original source!!!)
Clarkson Won't Let 'Idol' Use Her Songs

By DAVID BAUDER, AP Television Writer
Wed Jan 18, 3:00 PM ET

PASADENA, Calif. - Singer Kelly Clarkson, who vaulted to fame as the first "American Idol" winner in 2002, is not letting any of her songs be used by new contestants on the show.

A spokesman for Clarkson insisted it's nothing personal, but the stance prompted a public scolding from "American Idol" judge Simon Cowell.

"I think that by ignoring the show you're ignoring the audience who put you there," Cowell said Tuesday.

Clarkson has become a major star in the past year, with her hit "Since U Been Gone" earning both massive sales and critical respect, particularly from a rock community that has looked upon "American Idol" contestants warily. Her album "Breakaway" earned a Grammy nomination for best pop vocal album.

Yet it may have cost her a good relationship with the nation's most popular talent show.

"American Idol" must obtain permission from owners of song licenses before the music can be used on the show. While many love the exposure, some artists — the Beatles, for one — like to rigidly control use of their music.

Clarkson is not allowing any of her songs to be licensed for other uses, said Roger Widynowski, a spokesman for Sony BMG. "It has nothing to do with `Idol,' " he said.

The show's executive producer, Nigel Lythgoe, said he requested songs to be used on this year's show. He said he's not even sure Clarkson herself is aware of the situation.

Before "Breakaway," Clarkson fired Simon Fuller, the "American Idol" creator, as her manager, saying that although he is a "great guy," she needed someone who could give her career more attention. She teamed with Swedish hitmaker Max Martin on "Since U Been Gone."

It's the same delicate position faced by countless other musicians through show biz history, wanting to break away and show artistic independence without alienating those who gave them their start.

Cowell said he hoped Clarkson would let her music be used on "American Idol."

"No matter how talented Kelly Clarkson is, she would not be in the position she's in now without winning this show," he said. "And forget the way she feels about us or the producers or anybody else, or the terrible songwriters she alleges she was with which sold her millions of records.

"It's the public who bothered to pick up the phone to vote for her," he said. "If she refuses to give songs to be used on the show, it's like saying to every person who voted for you, `you know what? Thank you. I'm not interested in you anymore.'"

With the seemingly unquenchable public interest in "American Idol," it's not like the show really needs Clarkson. But she's plainly the best example producers can point to as proof that they can open the door to wish fulfillment.

Sony's Widynowski said he would not comment on Cowell's remarks.

Clarkson, in an interview with The Associated Press last year, said she knows she'll always be identified as an "American Idol," and she has no problems with that.

"That's where I got my start," she said. "They always talk about the big first thing that you did. I think the only thing that I do mind is I don't want people to only focus on that."

For his part, Cowell said, "I don't like this, when they walk away from the show and kind of forget."

A BIG "shout-out" of thanks to GadflyDiscourse (our old "foe" back in the "bickering" days) for finding this article!

""It's the public who bothered to pick up the phone to vote for her," he said. "If she refuses to give songs to be used on the show, it's like saying to every person who voted for you, `you know what? Thank you. I'm not interested in you anymore.'""

I needed a laugh today. thanx.

I guess the question is whether anyone wanted to do one of her songs in the first place.

Just giving you good folks a heads up.

"Clarkson is not allowing any of her songs to be licensed for other uses, said Roger Widynowski, a spokesman for Sony BMG. "It has nothing to do with `Idol,' " he said."

Like Clarkson really has a say in anytime she puts out....Riaa has her all so locked up, she can't even down some Taco Bell without their say so!

anything she puts out that is....Damn typos!

Kelly puts out???

(She's a HELL of a lot better looking than Brittney Spears and etc.)

lol

I would think that the songwriter(s) would have the only say in whether or not the songs would be licensed (that is, unless Sony/BMG bought out the rights to them). Unless Clarkson writes all of her own songs (unlikely), I wouldn't think she would have a say in it at all.

I could be wrong (and often am.)

Then again, maybe the songwriter(s) were forced to sign a contract giving Sony/BMG final say in who gets to license the songs.

The whole damn thing--from contracts to copyrights--is way too confusing for me.

"Unless Clarkson writes all of her own songs (unlikely), I wouldn't think she would have a say in it at all."

We're not talking about PJ Harvey or a Bettie Serveert here when it comes to Clarkson. The nitwit is told what to wear, what to say, what to sing, even right down to what to eat.

If you ask me byteme, you're right on the mark with this one.

This just in...Kelly has relented and will let AI use some of her songs.

Now you can sleep better tonight knowing that

I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that American Idol is on FOX and the copyright owner of the songs and/or Kelly's work is from a rival network? It wouldn't be the first time this kind of politics was played.

Blah. She and Idol both suck big weenies anyways.

Its all just such a load of crap.

So I guess even though she's the one that won and sang that "Moment Like This" song and put it on her first album, then no one is allowed to use it.

So I guess she'll be suing Disney soon for using it on their stupid cruise ship commercial.

And I'm rather ticked off about American Idol right now. The third one (Fantasia) is originally from my home town, and we were grateful enough to put up signs to that effect, but now she's used her fame as an excuse to abandon High Point and live in Charlotte, and to write a book slamming my home town. Stupid show for giving people the chance to slam the people that supported them.

Oh yeah, they came to Greensboro this year, but only because of the hurricane. I was looking forward to seeing next week when they show the auditions from there, but you just know there'll be a line saying "Well, we were going to be in Memphis, but the hurricane forced us to come here to North Carolina where most of the talent is."

Idiots. I hope this is the last season of that stupid show. I hope that they finally do something that will get them investigated. They've allowed 28 year olds on the show (back when the age limit was like 24), sibling abusers, let one of them have an affair with one of the judges (I don't care what they say, you know it had to have happened) and whatever else, I don't care.

NiceGuy2003 come on don't be so naive!
Kelly Clarkson was signed to a Sony contract over a year before she won on American Idol.

The media lying to the public??? You better believe it!

NiceGuy2003, I'd be inclined to entertain at least two likely causes:
1) Success has a tendency to go to people's heads, causing them to have a short memory that otherwise should remind them to be grateful.
2) The RIAA is a bad influence (it contaminates).

In regard to: "The RIAA is a bad influence". . .

My mama told me to avoid bad influences.

"Like Clarkson really has a say in anytime she puts out....Riaa has her all so locked up"

Stop being so clueless.

"I would think that the songwriter(s) would have the only say in whether or not the songs would be licensed"

It's depends upon what is in the contract.

"We're not talking about PJ Harvey or a Bettie Serveert here when it comes to Clarkson. The nitwit is told what to wear, what to say, what to sing, even right down to what to eat."

Again, shut the hell up, you clueless moron. Clarkson has taken control of her career and is navigating very wisely. She put out a string of catchy pop singles and is now a bonafide star. More power to her. PJ Harvey - go back to your hipster indie crap. I'll take Kelly Clarkson any day of the week.

Could I have a show of hands for those on this website who prefer Kelly Clarkson over most independent musicians?

[ostensibly projecting majority in favor of indie music]

Whoops, sorry, there, mroop fella, you're outnumbered....and maybe on the wrong website as well.

If, by some chance, you would not be outnumbered, then there's something disconcerting about the majority of participants on this website!

. . . which would give me pause as to whether I should even want to be here myself.

"Again, shut the hell up, you clueless moron. Clarkson has taken control of her career and is navigating very wisely. She put out a string of catchy pop singles and is now a bonafide star. "

Speaking of nitwits, Boycott's own court jester mroop a shortsighted, narrowminded, buffoon has taken it upon himself to regale me with his harlequinade. As for dear Polly Jean, the gal can bang out a song.....Where as Clarkson is heading down the path of ho-downing with Ashlee Simson according rumors.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8669415

Of course mroop is in good company with these frauds.....After all he's been faking his lawyer sham on us for years here.

Since you're a big fan of Clarkson, scribe, I suggest you check out her song "What's up lonely?" because it can only be written for a lonesome pedophilic losers like yourself who listens to this teen crap.

Lock up the kids.....mroop is on the prowl! And the freak makes MJ look like an Alter Boy.

"Again, shut the hell up, you clueless moron. "

Typical response from mroop which shows his total lack of class. Instead of calling people names, why don't you make your points and just shut the hell up? Oh, yeah, that's right. Your point of view sucks, I forgot.

it depends on the act...have we forgotten that its about music..and like religon..we all have subjective tastes and experiences to it regardless of whether we agree with it or not.
just because youre a top 40 star doesnt make you MY flavor as much as some senesless progressive indie rocker spitting out words that lost my attention 2 seconds ago.

i agree with mroop..i think that this clarkson chick is knowing what she is doing in the market segment she is in and chosen to be in. the players know the game. plus a little bad pr sometimes does wonders to an already catapulted star status.

again..this is about someone who is in this segment of the market. for people who are supposedly vehement..you guys seem to make comparisons between major acts to independent acts and a little too concerned. why? independent means independent..a different market. focus your energies on promoting them rather than ubiquitously bashing major acts.

from my observation..a lot of you people are off the wall yourselves. i remember a thread months ago about an independent songeriter geoff byrd and just because he wanted a little piece of the pie working with a major distributor...i believe the literal words described in comparison were "pedophile".."criminal"

i wouldnt cast stones living in glass houses people

"Since you're a big fan of Clarkson, scribe, I suggest you check out her song "What's up lonely?""

Damn, it sounds like you know more about Clarkson than I do. Ha! I just know the singles I hear on the radio. And they are some catchy pop singles.

"have we forgotten that its about music"

Of course they have. That's the problem. The Beatles were considered "pop music" in their day. Motown was considered pop music and was specifically aimed at capturing the largest audience. Now that stuff is considered the classics.

"i remember a thread months ago about an independent songeriter geoff byrd and just because he wanted a little piece of the pie working with a major distributor"

I remember too. The armchair critics looking down their noses at a guy trying to make a living with his music. How dare he!

Kelly Clarkson is the only American Idol winner who was able to actually turn her win into a career as a credible artist with some excellent infectious ear candy for the pop market. And I understand she's a nice gal too. Good for her!

"Could I have a show of hands for those on this website who prefer Kelly Clarkson over most independent musicians?"

"Most independent musicians"? Are you kidding me? Most independent musicians are hacks with a myspace page and no talent. While the access to cheap home studios and the ability to post your music on the net has been a boon to those who want their music heard, it has flooded the world with tons and tons and tons of crap that should never have left the bedroom. Everybody thinks they're a rock star these days because they have a myspace page. But they can't even get signed to the indiest of indie labels because they ain't got no talent or skills.

And btw, Kelly Clarkson works with the best pop songwriters out there today. And you are going to compare that to Johnny Dirtbag, who knows nothing past Nirvana? Gimme a break!

"But wait, mroop. She uses outside songwriters. She is not authentic! She is not real!"

Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Ray Charles - they all worked with the best songwriters of their day. Learn your history, you clueless morons.

You know, your way of pooh-poohing indie music leaves a bad taste around here. If you're so RIAA-music oriented, why don't you make things easier for yourself and most of the rest of us by just evacuating yourself from these pages.
You may not be a shill, but you certainly are a nay-sayer that doesn't do much good for morale around these affiliated websites.
Think about it, buddy.

"I guess the question is whether anyone wanted to do one of her songs in the first place." - George Z.

I tend to agree, but, of course, the appreciation of specific music is in the ear of the listener.

"Focus your energies on promoting them [indies] rather than ubiquitously bashing major acts." - IndieWarriors

Criticism noted.

"You know, your way of pooh-poohing indie music leaves a bad taste around here."

I'm not bashing indie music. I wish more power to independent musicians. I hate the crappy bands on Victory Records, but I applaud the success of the bands and label.

But it is a fact that the communications revolution has meant that anyone who can play 3 crappy chords and warble off key can call themselves an "independent artist". And the world is now flooded with garbage music.

You said:
You know, your way of pooh-poohing indie music leaves a bad taste around here. If you're so RIAA-music oriented, why don't you make things easier for yourself and most of the rest of us by just evacuating yourself from these pages.
You may not be a shill, but you certainly are a nay-sayer that doesn't do much good for morale around these affiliated websites.
Think about it, buddy.
------
The guy has a better objective point of view than most of the cult-orientated sheep here. He wasn't necessarily praising this Clarkson chick's music..he was able to point out the business decisions this girl has made in the mainstream pop market she is in.

Without more people with some objectivity on this issue..this site is just another blip as a bitch site...thats all. Although this site does a good job of regularly posting hard to find articles. However, the lack of constructive editorials..constant whining..and the tasteless satirical articles submitted does not make you very credible either.

To digress a little...can I ask all of you what is your definition of "indie" music to you? Is it really the music or a market status?

". . .anyone who can play 3 crappy chords and warble off key can call themselves an "independent artist"

And anyone at a major label can flood the market with jabber-talk, a few monotonous background chords, with a few "yeahs" and "oohs" thrown in, and call themselves music artists.
The difference between what you call garbage indie music and mainstream rap is simply....rap sells. Neither is musical per se, but one makes money and the other doesn't.
Again, I'll defer to the criticism that there are different strokes for different folks, and anyone can love all the rap they want. The main point is that if you're going to criticize non-talented indie efforts, then are you going to leave non-talented RIAA stuff untouched by your resource of barbs?
If so, then one of the previous points I made has even more vendication going for it.

IndieWarrior, you have an authentic username, but your words don't fit where we might expect your heart to be.

I wrote "IndieWarrior". I meant indieWarriors.

"Neither is musical per se, but one makes money and the other doesn't."

You do sound like an old codger with your ignorant bashing of rap music. There is some genius rap music out there, although like any genre, 99 percent of it is crap.

Rap artist and producer Dr. Dre is a musical genius. Did you know he just did an album with Burt Bacharach? Burt Bacharach is also a musical genius. So you can bash rap all you want. Me and Burt recognize there is some talent in the genre.

I hate to say it, but rap has had more creative and interesting moments that rock music these days. Ooh, it hurt to say that. : )

"then are you going to leave non-talented RIAA stuff untouched by your resource of barbs?"

There's plenty of people to do that here already. And I have done plenty of bashing of today's RIAA music. But I will say that if a band has any talent and staying power these days, they will end up somehow affiliated with an RIAA label. I love Bjork. I love Tool. Point me to an artist as talented as creative as Bjork or Tool on an indie label. You can't because there aren't any. And if there are, they will eventually end up making some kind of deal with a major - be it an imprint or a distribution deal or something along those lines.

IndieWarrior, you have an authentic username, but your words don't fit where we might expect your heart to be.
----

Hmm...you support independence but as long as they follow "your" criteria? Which again..leads me to ask..what is indie music to you? Is it the music form? The market? The clique?
Thats an oxymoron if I heard one.

I support any artists in whatever decisions they choose for their career...independent or not..agreed or not.
Being an RIAA or independent does not automatically make me your fan..your music has to reach me. Get it?

And you still havent answered my question about your defiition of indie music.

"Being an RIAA or independent does not automatically make me your fan..your music has to reach me. Get it?"

Bingo!

"And you still havent answered my question about your defiition of indie music."

Have you hear about a child in a marketplace who played a tune, and got upset because people didn't dance to it?

indieWarrior, if you were authentic as your username suggests, you could give a good definition yourself.
Your postings, to a large extent, give cause for some of us to question your true intentions. Are you really an indie warrior? Reading your posts, there's considerable room for doubt as to where your heart is.

"You do sound like an old codger with your ignorant bashing of rap music."

Likewise, you sound like a shill with your sweeping bashing of most indie music.

Clique

Anyway, mroop (plus your similar-minded friend, indieWarrior) --
I've got to be off to take care of some business responsibility.

[exhaunt]

"Likewise, you sound like a shill with your sweeping bashing of most indie music."

I'm a shill because I say most indie music sucks? I also say most major label music sucks. So what am I shilling for? Silence? : )

Well, looks like I'll be a little late leaving.

If 99% of any genre is crap, why do you frequently come across in posts where you gravitate in preference to some major label recordings in contrast to indie music?

To: audience - - come on now, group, am I the only one who is standing up for what I've noticed?
(And I really need to leave, so someone else needs to pick up the Boycott baton and wield it in defense until I get back.)
Let's take a walk back to what has been written at the forefront of Boycott's website - what it stands for and what it opposes, etc. Can we do that?

ALL of us!

("OUR MISSION - Why We Are Here")

"If 99% of any genre is crap, why do you frequently come across in posts where you gravitate in preference to some major label recordings in contrast to indie music?"

Are you sure? In this thread it was Kelly Clarkson vs. PJ Harvey. Guess what? Both major label artists!

Most of the music I listen to is from the 50's, 60's and 70's and the labels were independent labels. These labels were all bought up by the majors so now it is major label music. But when it was released it was independent music.

As for the music of today, the only good stuff I hear is on major labels, although that is few and far between. The reason the good stuff is on the majors is because the artists' goal is to become popular and the way to do that most efficiently is by utilizing the resources that the majors have at their disposal.

If a band is originally on an indie label and they achieve a modicum of success, then they jump to a major label.

One of my favorite bands of recent vintage is Marvelous 3. They were originally on an indie and then jumped to a major. Then they broke up and leader Butch Walker signed a solo deal with a major. Then he was dropped and signed another solo deal with a major. Now he also does production and songwriting for major label artists like Avril Lavigne and The Donnas and others. So .... if you have talent, you will eventually end up affiliated with a major in some way.

OldCodger you have made a good showing of yourself and I applaud
you...If you haven't figured it out already...mroop and IndieWarriors are likely one and the same person. Fun and games it seems. But what do you expect from a manic-depressive pedophile who has the propensity to be menacing pre-teen adolescents shopping at your local malls like some kind of modern middle-aged Mahatma Gandhi while jamming to Britney Spears “Whoops I did It Again “on his overpriced ipod.

Yuck!

Sure PJ Harvey and Clarkson are both major label artists...but my point was they couldn't be on anymore different points of the spectrum. Where as Polly Jean has been singing and songwriting since the tender age of 8 with roots to once Indie artists like The Pixies, Slint, and Mark Lanegan while receiving an unusual number of accolades for her work. Kelly Clarkson for part has to worry about her weight!
I'm not shocked that mroopelstiltskin has completely missed the point here with what many of us are trying to do. But unlike others, I welcome mpoopsinthepants because after all, while the scribe is posting and Googling here at a record pace….It keeps him from preying on our nations most puerile.

But hey what do I know??? I’m just some person who types from an Army base with men and women who give their all for the defense of the country in both Iraq and Afghanistan making the world safe from terror….While mroop gives his all with his snorefest posting endlessly on boycott-riaa.com making the world safe from….mmm well insomniacs.

Bore on scribe, We from the hipster underground salute you!

I believe one finger will do…

You said:
OldCodger you have made a good showing of yourself and I applaud
you...If you haven't figured it out already...mroop and IndieWarriors are likely one and the same person. Fun and games it seems. But what do you expect from a manic-depressive pedophile who has the propensity to be menacing pre-teen adolescents shopping at your local malls like some kind of modern middle-aged Mahatma Gandhi while jamming to Britney Spears “Whoops I did It Again “on his overpriced ipod.
--------------
I ask this seriously. Are you on crack?
I don't mind being accused of being someone else because I know numbers means a lot to you than logical insight..but these comparisons with a pedophile and being descriptive about it...honestly i really find it disturbing you can come up with something that vile and quickly.

I actually argued with mroop a couple of years ago regarding copyright issues i believe. I thought he was just being a smug smartass but at least he was an attorney (if i recall) with some actual insight.

Gadfly...i really hope ure not from the military..because coming from the army..most of us rarely brag about ourselves with civilians..its dishonorable. having the freedom we provide INCLUDES hearing things we dont want to hear.
you wouldve known that if you didnt bury your head so deep inside your ass.

"Again, I'll defer to the criticism that there are different strokes for different folks, and anyone can love all the rap they want."

I have news for you OldCodger, it's not just Indie rock artists who are being squeezed from the market place...But Indie rap artists as well. But why have artists with a meaningful honest message, when we can have major label rappers sing about ho’s and bling-bling in a racist stereo -typical fashion while CEO’s like Edgar Bronfman Jr. snicker and laugh in the background. So you see, all genres
are being hurt by the tactics and practices of the major labels and it’s lap dog the RIAA.

"I actually argued with mroop a couple of years ago regarding copyright issues i believe. I thought he was just being a smug smartass but at least he was an attorney (if i recall) with some actual insight."

Ok I was wrong. Here I thought mroop was manic-depressive, turns out Schizophrenic. Don't really matter what names he signs on under and spews his crap....Still all comes from the same asshole.

Assholes are still better than sheep.

At least they're just narcisstic enough to be a little more insightful and handle adversity better than calling everyone pedophiles because of a career decision that really has nothing to do with you.

EEAAASY there, mroop! Your kicking the slats out of your stable! Actually, it is good to hear from you.. but, gawd, can you put it in digestable form!! IMHO Kelly, shmelly!! Pick a karaoke bar in Vegas and you can hear singing that good.. It is all a marketing scheme to further the false hopes of future "idolettes" and Simon is cringing all the way to the bank!!

...and she sho as ain't no dixie chick!!!!

Funny here how indieWarriors is sticking up for the RIAA media label loving whore mroop and yet makes hypocritical statements likeeeeeeee

“Then there are those who are just total media whores with so little ir no talent no smarts to back up the hype and the business their labels generated for them. Pop stars have very little shelf life as it is..they wouldnt survive on their own.”

“Most people seem them as just another large corporation with power with absolute no alturistic or moral principles.”

“I thought one of the whole idea of this site was to help indies and boycott RIAA crap.”

“Its encouraging to see some indie artists making their own success.”

LOL. What side of the coin is this imbecile on anyway? He’s like John Kerry, “He was for Indie artists before he was against them.”

I hereby strip you of your “Indie” status.

"IMHO Kelly, shmelly!! Pick a karaoke bar in Vegas and you can hear singing that good."

Nice to see you JazzMary! I'm not saying her singing is all that. I'm just saying she is working with some songwriters that can write some reallly catchy tunes.

Remember Buddah or the Brill Building and all their pop hits back in the day? I'm a sucker for a 3 minute burst of candy coated pop perfection!

"If you haven't figured it out already...mroop and IndieWarriors are likely one and the same person."

Again with the lies. Remember - you're the fool with the multiple user names. I guess that is why you must accuse me of the same. Sad. So sad.

"At least they're just narcisstic enough to be a little more insightful and handle adversity better than calling everyone pedophiles"

Sorry couldn't resist the thoughts of mroop coolly trying to relive his youth during his mid-life crises “strolling” to Miss Independent while “trolling” for unsuspecting teenage girls in the meager hope of turning back time. Hairplugs and dye job not permitting.

indieWarriors - Now you know that any attempt at meaningful discourse with Gadfly is a fruitless mission. That is why I called it a clueless moron right off the bat. That gets it upset and it starts ranting about pedophiles and secret identities and the military. Always good for a laugh at its expense. As if Gadfly could ever pass the psychological exam and make it into our armed services. Ha ha! It likes to pretend it is in the military because it believes that will earn it some respect. But no one believes it anyway. So just enjoy the laughs because they are plentiful!

"Miss Independent"

Damn, for such an indie person, you sure seem to know a lot about Kelly Clarkson! LOL! I've never even seen one minute of American Idol. It looks like you watch every week. Oh my!

Mid-life crisis? How old do you think I am? LOL I like old music, but I've got a ways to go before I get to the mid-life crisis. And although I cannot fathom why, the cute chicks still dig me! I guess I'm just a charming fellow. Some of us are just born lucky I suppose. C'est la vie.

"Damn, for such an indie person, you sure seem to know a lot about Kelly Clarkson!"

It's called AMG All Music Guide idiot. Nothing wrong with being both musical and computer savvy.

Try it sometime and maybe you'll learn something.

mroop I never said "I" was in the military you little puke....I'll let you Google for the rest of the night to find any statement I’ve made to the contrary. As for anyone laughing , I’d say that the blog readers here are laughing at the likes of you mroop. How is it that a oh so smart “lawyer” can still be made a fool of by the likes of the Gadfly….Your lawyering skills must make the courts oh so proud. I know it gets many chuckles here!

So now you are going to claim that you went to AMG to find Kelly Clarkson song titles for your post? Ha ha! That's hilarious!

So now you claim you're not in the military? You just bring up your association whenever possible so you can try and bask in the reflected glory? Damn, that is even sadder that your original BS story. I'm surprised you haven't been fragged for Conduct Unbecoming An Idiot! : )

"I cannot fathom why, the cute chicks still dig me! I guess I'm just a charming fellow."

Yeah you're a real "devil" with the 12 year old gals.....You're a real Davey Westerfield there. Your hope should be mroopelstiltskin that Google doesn't give into the government and that search history thingy.

My feeling is there’s some skeletons in that hard drive of yours Casanova .

I agree with Jazzmay2U about the maketing aspect.

Okay, mroop, I can relent a bit and grant Kelly at least as good a voice as that heard in some of the top karaoke bars. If she seems better than that, then it probably has had a lot to do with some of the quality pop tunes she's had the fortune to work with (as you pointed out).
I submit that even the best of talent in the past laid a certain number of musical eggs that aren’t worth listening to, and even their excellent voices cannot redeem them when that happened. On the other hand, a super song can become a hit even by an average singer who may be perplexed why he/she can’t seem to sell much of anything after that without a great song to carry them along. (Hence, the one-shot phenomenon.)

Back to my previous thought, with respect to our mission:
We should be focusing on some positive aspects of the better-than-average indie music, and encouraging others to do so, too, in support of them!
On the other hand, discouraging or disparaging remarks typically deserve to be reserved for the tactics of the RIAA. We can sympathize with the contractual plight of any but the most successful of those whom it controls, without us supporting major label music either through purchases or through file sharing,
In some ways there are some basic differences between the indie movement and the major labels, but we can’t deny that individual musicians each have the right to make certain career choices (which can happen, as you have mentioned, though sometimes to their chagrin). HOWEVER, indie artists at any stage don't need to hear praise bestowed upon their identured counterparts. So, there's an issue there too.
To repeat: Our mission would have us refrain from putting down the indie concept or their efforts OR those participators of this website who support independent musicans!

To make it a fair, level field for a compelling argument: If you don’t think that the best of indie artists aren’t as good if not better than some of the most currently popular of the RIAA-enslaved artists, you are welcomed to that opinion; BUT, you are on the wrong website, my friend, and, I might add, a non-asset to the cause of the boycott.
In that case, you and most of us would seem to be better off if you’d go where you can be more appreciated for your antithetical preferences.
And, indieWarror, neither the owner nor staff of this website has indicated a guaranteed eclectic forum when it comes to beliefs that are counter to the basic mission statement.

To those who may not know:
Speaking of a level playing field, that’s another thing we strongly stand for on this website. It’s very important; in fact, it's crucial.
I could say more, but this post is already too long.

Hmmm. Let's see:

First you accuse me of having multiple ID's. When in fact you are the one who has admitted to using multiple ID's.

Now you accuse me of being into underage girls. I guess that means you are into underage girls.

No wonder they wouldn't let you into the military. You must have a criminal record. So now you clean the bathrooms at the military base and dream about what could have been. I guess you shouldn't have messed around with those young girls, you sick bastard. At least you got what you deserved!

"You just bring up your association whenever possible so you can try and bask in the reflected glory?"

And I shouldn't? Are the likes of you trying to compare my association with the military in the way that a skinhead would to the Nazi party? Am I going to be called racists because my family has served? Or bigot or hater or freeper or Swiss? We already have "your" hated for the Joooooows on record.

Who's on your target list next? The boyscouts? Sure you’d like that MJoop.

OldCodger - Isn't it more interesting to talk about Gadfly's perverted obsession with young girls than debate the relative merits of indie vs. RIAA music?

"Am I going to be called racists because my family has served?"

There you go again. Trying to bask in the achievements of others. Pathetic! Like I said, if you had stayed away from underage girls then you could have joined the military. You sick perverted fool. Clean the bathrooms now! Ten hut!

Well, actually, I was going to add that there are some ways of writing that can be counterproductive to the cause of the boycott (even by those who are in expressed support of the indie concept).

. . . although those so inclined could defer to an "off-topic" thread IF there was one available.

"HOWEVER, indie artists at any stage don't need to hear praise bestowed upon their identured counterparts."

I'd say that most indie artists would jump at the chance to be "indentured". That's the whole thing. It's not indie by choice. It's indie by necessity.

Of course there are some who are indie by choice and choose to remain indie even after getting the OFFER. But they are few and far between. That's a fact.

If our own Shmoo was offered a million dollar advance, he'd jump ship in a millisecond. And I wouldn't blame him. Baby needs a new pair of shoes.

Let's see; don't those tempting 'advances' need to be (contractually) repaid? And there are other aspects . . .

I regret my misspelling of indentured; that's what I get for writing too fast.
If a person could perform music just for the love of it, but otherwise not quit their day job, so to speak, that would be ideal. Play for fun and a little profit, and make the fans happy. Indies that have a strong back-up resource are blessed, and I admire them.
Once under contract, options are limited. . .

"Let's see; don't those tempting 'advances' need to be (contractually) repaid?"

No, they don't. We already had this discussion previously. I'm not going to defend major label contracts as far as the "other aspects". And btw, indie get ripped off on their contracts just as bad as major label artists do. That's not something you read around here much. Unless of course the artist owns his own label.

"If a person could perform music just for the love of it, but otherwise not quit their day job, so to speak, that would be ideal."

That might be ideal for you, but not for someone who does not want a day job and wants to do music full time.

I am in no way defending major labels. But I am pointing out that most artists want to be on a major label for the chance at rock stardom and money and chicks. For those who want to keep their day job and play music and try and get it to people over the internet - God bless 'em I say. But if they do start drawing crowds and selling records on their own, then the major labels will come sniffing around and you can bet that they will "sell out". What musician doesn't dream of playing for 20,000 people at Madison Square Garden? They all do, indie pretensions or not. That's why the major can suck them in to ripoff contracts so easily.

Gotta go. To be continued!

"Like I said, if you had stayed away from underage girls then you could have joined the military."

What's pathetic mroop is that you’re trying to turn my accusations of your man-boy love to implement me in your vile practice. Chilling! But are these examples of the grand attorney mroop’s lawyering skills to say the lest? Must of worked really “hard” to “earn” a Juris Doctor. Shows in our discourse.

Harvard Law School would be proud!

"Let's see; don't those tempting 'advances' need to be (contractually) repaid?"

"No, they don't. We already had this discussion previously.
I'm not going to defend major label contracts as far as the "other aspects".

Was it George Z. who said that (about repaying 'advances')? I just can't recall who said it, and I regret being unaware of the discussion that contradicted that.

You're correct, of course, about major labels being able to suck most up-and-coming talented musicians in to rip-off type of contracts.

Shmoo, where have you been when I needed you?

If they do start drawing crowds and selling records on their own, then the major labels will come sniffing around and you can bet that they will "sell out". What musician doesn't dream of playing for 20,000 people at Madison Square Garden?"

mroop did make a point here that I have to give him credit for in a way though he‘s meaning and mine are much different....I can't think of any Indie artist who wouldn’t want to make it to the big time, to share their gift with the masses....The question is can the majors be achieved without having to deal with the major labels? My goal is one to bring Indie Artists to the main stream without having to deal with the cartel. Nirvana, along with bands like Dinosaur Jr. and the Screaming Trees were legitimate Indie bands that proved that there is hope that ones music can reach the bigtime….Unfortunately Cobain had to deal with the nonsense that comes along with the mass media which may or may not have resulted in his death. But what makes things different from 1991 and now??? The Internet, which could cut out the major labels altogether and the cartel knows this…..Kill the baby in the womb! That’s why the lawsuits, that’s why the assault of college campuses where many student come to know Indie artists. That’s why We’re here That‘s why they‘re here….Who knows, if mroop is an agent of the RIAA , maybe that’s why he’s here!

Mroop said:
Date: January 23, 2006 @ 8:46 PM
indieWarriors - Now you know that any attempt at meaningful discourse with Gadfly is a fruitless mission
----

This is one of the reasons why I rarely post anything on this site...just meaningless ramblings. This guy has decided dead set in his mind that Im you..and that's really fine with me..he's not adding anything constructive for me care about.
As I credited before, at least this site is very good at compiling hard-to-find articles hard to look for. For the most part, they're informative except for the occasional annoying satire posts.

People forget the music business is what it is sounds like...business. Are RIAA exploitative? Absolutely! Are there indie labels that are underhanded? Of course! Human nature...its just not highly publicized obviously. For some reason, we're so blinded by the romantic liberal notion that all the underdogs under the evil corporations are the poor that Robin Hood needs to save..when in fact "smaller" business run by greedy individuals are more troubling. A corporation is an entity..run by an profit intense boardroom...yet people expect such entities to have pure altruistic motives. Bwah??

----------------------
"I'd say that most indie artists would jump at the chance to be "indentured". That's the whole thing. It's not indie by choice. It's indie by necessity."
---------------
This reminds me of a producer named Steve Albini...a self absorbed..self professed indie producer but a real asswipe who runs a studio in Chicago..he's notorious for writing such hateful articles against "major" artists..i recall the words "pandering sluts" were used. What was interesting is that he had no complaints when he produced Nirvana "In Utero" and banked some decent cash out of it from Geffen Records. [gasp] A major!
I dont think he's a pedophile luring children into his studio..hypocritical? hmmm

I don't advocate majors...and having been an independent musician for a few years...I learned to support artists in whatever business decision they make...indie or major..because I support the artist I became a fan of. When you work with musicians who are trying to make a "dent" in this business (if youre VERY lucky)..you will see sitting the sidelines foolishly heckling with no provocation is too easy.

"Was it George Z. who said that (about repaying 'advances')? I just can't recall who said it, and I regret being unaware of the discussion that contradicted that."

It was shmoo who said it and we went back and forth until leflaw told him that I was right. Do you really think a multibillion dollar company like Universal is going to sue a broke musician with no money to get their recoupment back? It just doesn't happen.

"This reminds me of a producer named Steve Albini"

I know who Albini is and he does come across with a righteous indier-than-thou attitude. But last year I emailed him with a question about his work on In Utero and he got me back to real fast with a good answer. So now he's OK in my book. : ) I forget exactly what the question was - something about the MFSL version of In Utero being a different mix than the standard version. I think he said it was the same mix, despite rumors to the contrary.

mroop
i was looking for a producer at the time..when i met him i thought he was an obnoxious fuck. tho this was like 4 years ago. maybe he's changed. dunno.
my understanding was that he tracked the recordings. mix jobs gets passed through several engineers until the labels deems them radio fit...it's not unheard of. tracking is mind exhausting as it is..i would pass the mixing to a fresh pair of ears who know how to make mixes shine.

"Do you really think a multibillion dollar company like Universal is going to sue a broke musician with no money to get their recoupment back? It just doesn't happen."

Either way, for the sake of the theoretical, it could be considered a financial risk. (Advancing a hundred thou to a promising artist with no guarantee of a return on the investment, or facing the prospect of litigating to recoup the investment later as remedy to have a contractual arrangement met if there was one.)

Not that it would ultimately matter that much to a multi-billion dollar corporate entity, who often gains handsomely on its invested return.... making its profit margin shine by preying on so many of those susceptibly gullible enough to be chained to a lopsidedly unfair music contract.

Broken record: This site supports the plight and potential of independent musicians.
They need all the encouragement they can get.

(Oh, Shmoo — ol' buddy, ol' pal, where ARE you? I've been at bat for the cause, but I'm getting battle-weary.)

Time for a changing of the guard. Mike or George, pick up the baton and take over.

And what exactly are "you" doing indieWarriors that's constructive to this site.....My God man! You can't even complete a full paragraph properly without screwing it up.

Examples of indieWarriors constructive contributions would beeeeeee

“Harassment was example of possible events due to me publishing your "slutty" ways and every creep wouldnt leave you alone.”


“I”m not an advocate for Ms.(Rosa) Park”


“You can grasp my ass and lick it clean.”

“Uhmm ok...thank for clarifying that with your supportive argument of lame sarcasms and ass kissing.”

“Same for smartasses who cant argue and post garbage.”

“Here's an idea...get those lazy pop performers to work their asses off by TOURING like the predecessors did. “ This one I find funny considering the whole Kelly Carkson Argument.

indieWarriors I find it just sacrilege that you would have the audacity to include “Indie” at the beginning of your name.

Nobody here should have doubts that I’ve been for Indie artists from day one…..I’ve both contributed news and articles that have wowed friends and rivals alike. Some are on the front page right now idiot….I’ve also given ideas that some have even considered for future use. “You” Indie on the other hand can’t decide if you’re for Major labels or against……Me, I’m no compassionate Conservative here….I say crush the bastard Major labels and RIAA and I will use every means that I have to see that plan come INTO completion.

If anyone wants to see “meaningless ramblings” just check out indieWarriors Rosa Parks article….The fool just didn’t know when to say when…..on and on beyond the point of anyone really carrying anymore.

Nevermind removing your “Indie” status! I myself wonder about your warrior moniker. Me? I’m here to fight and if that’s the RIAA or fellow members alike?

So Be It!

If anyone wants to see “meaningless ramblings” just check out indieWarriors Rosa Parks article….The fool just didn’t know when to say when…..on and on beyond the point of anyone really carrying anymore.
---
You mean like what you're doing right now?

My contribution to being an independent is outside of this site as a musician working with other musicians. I didn't constantly bitch..gripe..whine..online all day or made empty gesture remarks about being in the military and how EVERYONE else is abusing the privilege of free speech when in fact..you seem to have difficulty "accepting" opinions that may be adversarial to your own.

Thanks for letting me know how YOU feel when and where my indie status should be as if your say-so has any validity. Youre like one of those kids I've seen who protest about gentrification while wearing Buddy Holly glasses completely oblivious that their own presence contributed to what they were protesting about to begin with. They didnt know what they were protesting for...it just seemed "cool".

So be it!

"my understanding was that he tracked the recordings. mix jobs gets passed through several engineers until the labels deems them radio fit...it's not unheard of."

I just looked up Albini's response because I posted it on a music collector web site. I was wrong about the mixing. It was the mastering we were talking about.

"I’ve both contributed news and articles that have wowed friends and rivals alike."

Amazing.

"Youre like one of those kids I've seen who protest about gentrification while wearing Buddy Holly glasses completely oblivious that their own presence contributed to what they were protesting about to begin with."

Can anyone else see the snubbing and complete arrogances of this statement. Is this what's wrong with many on this site? I write to you, many of our casual members who are maybe young and who's actions the RIAA may affect, the college and high school student. I for one are not like this indieWarriors who downgrades your contributions whatever big or small to the fight against the major labels. I for one know that your protests, for example students from NYU at Tower Records could only bring on change in the long run....So what if your memory only extends to Nirvana as opposed to wearing Buddy Holly glasses. This site needs you!!!! It needs both your vigor and your moxey.. We want your numbers...We welcome your efforts for change...We will not exclude you based on age, hubris , or complete ignorance. Because in the end it's the nations youth who will demand Indie bands to come to the forefront. It is “you” who will bring down the cartel in the end and change the establishment.

Forgive my fellow member indieWarriors snobbery . The founders of this site and I welcome you and look forward to you, the casual young viewers. It is the likes of us who look forward to your ideas.

I should know! They still have the decency to keep me around.

"Amazing"

What's amazing is that both mroop and indieWarriors are on the same posting schedule. And it's just not at this thread but many threads. Do you both have the same days off??? Do you both correspond with each other before posting? Are you both joined at the hip? Two people sharing the same brain?

Inquiring minds want to know! On second thought nahhh we don’t.

I heard the moon landing was fake and they are hiding aliens in Area 51.

Lordy, you are dumb. But entertaining. Please continue. You make me laugh. : )

How many other posters have you accused me of being now? I lost count. Are you keeping a tally?

Are you keeping a tally?

Sure!

To date mroop Member Since: Aug 03, 2003 has and I count....

Article Posts: 2370
Forum Posts: 1
Pageviews: 2775

Other user names are as follows:
mroopv
Ex--Mroop
exxmroop
xmroop
mroop72
mroop75
mroop78

And these are just names we "know" about.

For such a busy lawyer....How does the freak find the time to obsess over this website...as well as others around the web. Looking up the tools info I'm back to thinking manic disorder. Well have to take some kind of CNN\CBS\Newsweek Poll on the subject which will tell us.....mmmm nothing!

If not get this guy a day job!

You guys make interesting reading.
Obviously, mroop's no slouch....and makes a very worthy opponent.
Gad's got game, and has had some good comebacks as well.
As I say, vewwy intewesting.

Incidentally, I can't help but wonder where the rest of the gang went. I could guess they got a case of cold feet.
I hafta tell ya, I'm a little disappointed. (With the exception of Jazzmary2U's two posts, it's been four days since anyone besides mroop, indieWarriors, Gadfly, and OldCodger wrote anything on this thread. And it's not as if there hasn't been ample opportunity.)

Funny OldCodger,

I've wondered where everyone is as well.
Man grumpy is missing all this good stuff!
I see numbers low on alot of the threads...I hope this isn't a downward trend...I'm getting alittle worried.

May have to do something to fire up the troops.

As you say, participation seems to be less lately.
I, too, have noticed fewer posts on most threads recently.
(Hopefully, things will pick up.)

Of course, we can't be sure if there are fewer readers or whether fewer of the usual readers are making fewer posts....with the former case being worse than the latter, naturally.

I guess we'll just to let time tell.

"May have to do something to fire up the troops."

And what's also been somewhat disappointing to me is how the lively dialogue on this thread in the past several days has basically involved only about four of us.
Not a good sign.
(I would have expected controversy to attract more participation, but it didn't.)

P.S. I think I know how to get some responses from others: Merely chide the gang for not having the moxie for engaging mroop or you, which could actually be true in some cases!

I can almost anticipate the reaction of some, perhaps even protesting to the effect that they don't lack the courage, only the inclination. (Yeah, right, uh-huh.)

". . .which could actually be true in some cases!"

(or, plausibly, in MANY cases)

"And what's also been somewhat disappointing to me is how the lively dialogue on this thread in the past several days has basically involved only about four of us."

Enjoy it while it lasts OldCodger. I feel the time is coming where corporations will make the great push to finally control what we know now as the Internet. Nevermore will you be able to read about the dirty deeds that are aired out about the cartel and the government, websites like this one. Our kids may not enjoy the same freedoms that you, myself, and mroop are now expressing in this thread. Gone will be the times where we can express thoughts, exchange ideas, hell even pound each other like mroop and I are doing. I used to mock this website and the people who warned of both corporate and governmental encroachment....Both, if resent events have been any measure The government request Google members search history and the limits that are trying to be imposed on web blogs should change everyone's mind ...Lets just say I'm coming around now!

German Lutheran pastor Martin Niemöller once said,

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—
and there was no one left to speak out.

A stern warning from the ghosts of Dachau about the consequences of not opposing tyranny!

Well said!

Here's my take on all of this, but only because I was prodded by OldCodger...

Advances -- As some guy from EMI likes to point out, a recording advance is like a bank loan wherein, if things don't work out, you never have to pay it back. Unlike a bank loan, if things do work out, they still keep the collateral.

Recording contracts as the Holy Grail -- The entire industry is currently geared so that "success" is virtually impossible without a major label. Sadly, this success is not based on talent, musical ability or creativity, as the mere existence of American Idol illustrates. Since this thread started, you can now cover a Kelly Clarkson song on the program, but you're still not allowed to sing one of your own without giving up copyrights.

Everyone who signs a major label contract gets screwed. Because of the monopoly on the marketplace, so does everyone who doesn't.

It's not a question of talent or anything else. Half of the acts that were major label acts five years ago are now indie because they were cut from rosters as the industry downsized. And THEY still have to use the majors for distribution.

The problem is not so much that the industry is filled with corrupt thieving liars with piss-poor taste as much as it is that there is no alternative. Kind of like the phone company used to be.

"The problem is not so much that the industry is filled with corrupt thieving liars with piss-poor taste as much as it is that there is no alternative. Kind of like the phone company used to be."

This is a so-called think tank. Very well lets be pioneers and try to lay the ground work for some kind of alternative!

The age of appeasement has to cease ….

And THEY still have to use the majors for distribution.

Bull!

Examples of distribution are the Internet, p2p which gdZiemann
is against for his reasons, CD Baby....Hell even
C-Net are offering free downloads now of bands that were fired by the likes of Edgar Bronfman Jr..

So the music is out there without dealing with the majors....It's all a matter of informing the public at large.

Okay, y'all BOTH made some good points, I'll grant.

_ . _ . _ . _ . _

Also, by way of acknowledgement,
George Z. wrote: "Here's my take on all of this, but only because I was prodded by OldCodger..."

Hey, George, thanks for weighing in.

Belated acknowledgement:
"OldCodger, you have made a good showing of yourself, and I applaud you..."

Thanks, Gad!

See and there you go OldCodger, you throw around ideas, plot the demise of the cartel, even get alittle carried away and slam each other and George is always quick to give you the dressing down on the workings of the music industry, push the attitude that it's futile to try to change things .....A frivolous posture towards suggestions that are written off as just "pie in the sky" or completely irrelevant . And this guy is on our side??? and represents the leadership of this website!!!! Of course musicians and contributors to this page know the wall that many Indie bands have to face when dealing with the majors.....My question is where is the dialogue on breaking this monopoly? Where are the ideas? How are the folks going to move an antiquated media industry into the 21st century? What are the plans to increase membership here and what's being done? Have things become deadwood with 55 year old bloviating, naysayer's, and outright obstructionists, smug in their arrogance and closed to everything but their own presumptuousness, ready to shit all over everthing but their norms. Are these not the very characteristics of the the cartel? This thread alone has both displayed examples.......shutting down concepts and excluding those who may be youthful and less learned but who's actions the RIAA directly effect. I'm an outsider and even I am trying to make suggestions most of which are shot down by those who claim influence.What is this AOL Lite for 50somethings? What exactly is being done? Also where is the promoting of Indie Bands.....Where is the notoriety for those we wish to help? I know Mike(shmoo) had a thread giving light to bands awhile back....So where was the feedback? The sampling and reviews? Why do threads such as politics and privacy commove members to post over a 100? Do they have something to hide? Are the agendas personal? political?
Are those the reasons numbers are down?with little being accomplished.

When "was" the day here that the music died?

Where is Mike anyway? I miss his dogged commitment and enthusiasm for the site.....If we lose him we’ve lost one of the good ones.

"And THEY still have to use the majors for distribution.

Bull!"

Yeah, right bull. Look at all the former RIAA independents that use an RIAA for distribution, making it difficult for boycotters to decide whom to boycott. If you don't use an RIAA distributor, your options are limited, although far larger than they ever USED to be because of the internet. And you wonder why the RIAA is suing to close down file sharing. Obviously to make themselves the ONLY option.

That's what Shmoo used to say (the real reason for their war on file-sharing).

"And you wonder why the RIAA is suing to close down file sharing. Obviously to make themselves the ONLY option."

Exactly that's why I'm all in favor of p2p. That's why I carry the flame for college students who use filesharing. The very students who are both getting their bands and music from other alternatives than the RIAA....That's why they're first on the hit list.

"Look at all the former RIAA independents that use an RIAA for distribution, making it difficult for boycotters to decide whom to boycott."

Again! We know what we're up against....That brick wall that's the RIAA....Again! What do we intend to do about it????

GadflyDiscourse  
Date: January 27, 2006 @ 5:41 PM
Patti Santangelo Fight Goliath campaign is now officially underway! Please make a donation; any amount will help...

http://www.p2pnet.net/goliath/

pepe512000  
Date: January 28, 2006 @ 11:53 AM
Gad's right!

How many people come here and read these posts? How many indie artists over at D-Music?..come on, people.....everyone can afford 5 bucks......five bucks a month is even better..this may be the one chance in our lifetime to defeat the riaa.....go, go, go.....

From p2p....

Patti Santangelo fights on

p2p news / p2pnet: Activists Aid Woman in Music Piracy Case, says ABC News. Internet activists help get lawyer for woman accused of piracy, says the Boston Herald. Activists aid woman in music piracy case, says Business Week, Activists Aid Woman in Music Piracy Case, says Forbes and on the other side of the world, Internet activists help get lawyer for woman accused of piracy, says the Malaysia Star.

And they're all talking about you and your efforts to help new York mother Patti Santangelo single-handedly take on the Big Four record label cartel's RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America). There's a whole raft more of similar headlines on Google, Yahoo, and so on. But you get the point.

You've been contributing to the Fight Goliath campaign and thanks to you, as I write this, $6,378.88 has so far been poured into the kitty. And it's allowed Patti to retain lawyer Jordan Glass to help her.

Because there's no way on earth she can take on the likes of Shook, Hard Bacon by herself.

Most of the headlines refer to Jim Fitzgerald's Associated Press national report, or re-hashes of it.

Yesterday, I heard from him in an email saying Patti was in court. When he asked her how she was now able to afford a lawyer, she credited you – all the people not only in North America, but from around the world who've donated dollars, lira, pounds …….

Most of the stories, such as the one in Forbes, were based on Fitzgerald's story and among the questions he asked was, "What kind of people are the donors?"

"Ordinary kids, musicians, students, moms, dads, writers, waiters, programmers, bus drivers, artists," we said. Another question was, "Can you tell me why you started raising money for her case?"

We're, "trying to help Patti take on what's become the common enemy - the corporate music industry, with its bottomless pockets and legions of lawyers," we said.

So – pat yourselves on the back : )
But remember: this is the start, not the finish. And if you're wondering, read Alex H's thoughts.

For now, keep it going. Make a donation - doesn't matter how much or how little - through the button below, and/or by adding one to your web site. Get the code here.

I finally updated our link to that OldCodger. Thanks!