I have been listening to a bunch of old classics I had on vinyl and cassette and even 8-track tonight.

...everything (even and ESPECILLALY the "B" sides) sound so much better than ANYTHING that is eMTv/VH1 "modern" that I want to seriously throw up in comparison.

It is NOT the "style" nor the "nostalgia factor" that I am listening to/basing my "judgement" upon.

MODERN RIAA MUSIC SIMPLY SUX BY COMPARISON! (Sonically, lyrically, Compositionally, Inspirationally, etc.)

I'm SORRY!

(It is the TRUTH!)

I *LOVE* comedy music. My favorite artist is Tom Lehrer, a math professor turned musician turned math professor.

His last recording (other than some for educational television) was done sometime in the 50's to 60's.

OK. Here's a thought: does mainstream music suck because it reflects society now, or does society suck because such crappy music has made it that way?

I don't want to give the RIAA too much credit for societal influence, but look at MTV. Look how it was on day one, and look how it is now.

It's just plain garbage, artistically and philosophically. It's laughable, actually. Gangsta? What a bunch of posers. They'd crap themselves if they ever had to deal with the likes of Capone and his cronies. But I digress.

The old stuff is well put together, and it has musical quality. Nice talent, good sound.

Now anybody with 2 turntables, a microphone, and some women shaking large bottoms onstage can put out MTV "quality" product.

I dont know. Alot of that 50's bubblegum pop shit was even more retarded than todays music. I do like alot of radio stuff from the 70's and late 60s though.

"It's just plain garbage, artistically and philosophically. It's laughable, actually. Gangsta? What a bunch of posers. They'd crap themselves if they ever had to deal with the likes of Capone and his cronies. But I digress." No doubt! if you asked 95% of the "gangtas" on MTV if they (1) have money. DUh they are on mtv yep yep (2) do they even know what it means to be gangsta? nope! mtv sucks now!

my music is more about how i feel and has nothing to do with this modern lifestyle. todays music isnt the best... but i can handle it if it isnt rap.... or emo... but i agree when you say older music is better. a lot of kids are listening to oldschool stuff anyways!

Levi!

Frank Zappa said that the 60s was the most creative period in rock music. Anybody could get signed back then because it was still the "wild west" in the music business. The old farts runnning the labels back then had no idea what younger people would listen to so they signed lots of acts that would never get a chance today. The studio fat cats didn't mainstream the acts the way they do today. It all started with the "British invasion" of the early 60s - an explosion of new music (including the Beatles, Rolling Stones, The Who, etc.) that is astonishing in retrospect.

it's actually pretty simple. if you have a purpose and a message and some talent then you create something that stands up to the test of time. if your goal is to get on mtv and dance around in your underwear and use bad language then you'll probably be remembered about as long as marky mark and thought of just about as highly.

of course, most people would be willing to take 2 years off from picking lettuce from dawn till dark to live the rock star life then go back to seasonal labor when the fame and fortune run out.

the big question is where do I sign up?

Hey, at least Marky Mark wasn't his brother, who happened to be on of the New Kids On The Block. I think you people are being too one sided, I like lots of older stuff, but there's good stuff coming out now also. You might not see it on tv or hear it on the radio, but it's out there. People have gotten lazy and are used to tv and radio telling them what to listen to instead of going out and finding bands on their own. And with the internet it's not that hard to find new bands. In the old days the mass media could tell you about new, interesting and talented bands to check out, that isn't the case any more, but don't think there aren't any talented musicians any more, that's just absurd and shows you haven't been paying close enough attention to the underground music scene.

Yes, there is good stuff coming out today, but it's very, VERY rare and when something good does come out, it almost never gets played on MTV and then radio stations are ordered to overplay it just so people will hate it.

NiceGuy2003, I don't know if I agree with the term 'rare' in this case. I mean, if you mean rare in the sense that most bands are not good, you have to consider that there are a lot more bands making recordings now. I think there are just as many good bands (maybe even more), but there are a lot more bands overall, making them seem more rare. When the costs of recording equipment dropped in the '80s, just about any band could make a recording from their basement (as opposed to paying for studio time). This is why all these crazy genres and sub genres started coming seemingly out of nowhere (Seattle grunge being a good example of this). Now with the internet these bands can get exposure also, making their music available to most of the world. It just means that if you want to find the good bands you have to sift through all the crap out there, but I think that's part of the fun. Finding a band you really like after checking out 20, 50 even 100 you didn't is really satisfying, at least to me.

"Finding a band you really like after checking out 20, 50 even 100 you didn't is really satisfying, at least to me." indeed! i agree but nowadays you cant even find good music unless your on the internet or listening to the radio! mtv has rap.. sum rock... but all of it is the stuff .. im not going there... but i think a new tv station for music should be created...

Well, I'm a big metal head, so I don't know what to tell you as far as most other types of music and where to find them. MySpace.com has great access to indy bands of almost every genre, all of which you can listen to on their pages, and many have free mp3 downloads, and you don't even have to have a MySpace account to do any of that. As far as other stuff, I check Blabbermouth (Rock & Metal) and Punknews.org every day via RSS and any time any band posts free music downloads I get them. Also, there's lots of internet radio stations that are very genre specific and great for underground bands, same goes for podcasts. The good music is out there, you just have to take the time to find it, and don't expect tv, satellite or terrestirial radio to do the sifting for you.

And as a side note, I didn't think MTV actually played music videos any more, I thought it was mostly reality shows these days.

yeah i use myspace. i know the music is there it just sucks that you have to do the work to find it! why cant we just flip to a channel and have great music to listen to? now if ya wanna listen to stupid songs like "laffy taffy" and "bobble head" you can easily find it... but no you cant listen to what you want..... oh lord what has the music industry come to these days!?!?!

Levi!

"I don't want to give the RIAA too much credit for societal influence, but look at MTV. Look how it was on day one, and look how it is now."

"It's just plain garbage, artistically and philosophically. It's laughable, actually. Gangsta? What a bunch of posers."

Nevermind comparing MTV from day one to now.....How about from just ten years ago during the Nirvana era. Makes you wonder what else was a result of that shotgun blast that took Kurt Cobain's life. Frances Farmer, Pennyroyal Tea, and Lithium still blow everything away these jokers are putting out today. That's when Judy McGrath and Brian Graden even bother playing videos that is. As for "Gangsta" rap, makes MTV feel oh so P.C. and self-righteous.Fools can't do enough sucking up to Russel Simmons and P Diddy.
Forget trying to find cutting edge music from the over bloated corporations and occupied radio ladies and gents. Best bet is to look elsewhere....P2P perhaps? I'm certainly increasing my Indie music stash by the minute.

"Yes, there is good stuff coming out today, but it's very, VERY rare and when something good does come out, it almost never gets played on MTV"

Au Contraire! Worst kept secret is the fact there are plenty of Indie bands that are very good and could make a splash if given the chance. Sea And Cake, Kitchens Of Distinction, 5ive Style, Bedhead, and Don Caballero could be the Husker Du, Dinosaur Jr, or Sonic Youth of today. Problem of course is the genre that makes up these bands.....Independent. And why should the major labels put up with freethinking, march to their own beat, bands when we have such filth like American Idol pumping out artists(?), where control can come down to what he or she eats, what they wear, hell even what they weigh! Sad state of affairs indeed. As we learned in the 90's with the demise of Nirvana and Alice In Chains, it's better to keep far far away from eMTv.

So I listen to my old classics, and think that the stuff guys have on cassette, vinyl or 8 track from the 70s and 80s "sux" by comparison -- sonically, lyrically, compositionally, inspirationally, etc.
Doesn't necessarily mean it's so, just my judgement.
It IS the style and maybe the nostalgia factor. It's the music of my coming-of-age, and I find it much better than the junk of today.
(Especially rap)
But I'm not going to blame the RIAA for music styles, anymore than I'm going to blame book publishers for the bad books on the best seller list these days. Ditto movies, ditto tv shows.
Truth is, there were bad songs and bad books and bad movies and junk tv shows back in "the good old days" too.
The industries put out what people will buy. Mostly young people, who spend money. Not older folks who seldom buy any CDs -- and yet there is a tremendous selection of music available from any era on "nostalgia" CDs.
No sense in ranting about the talentless noise in style today -- the folks of the generation before yours have already ranted about the talentless music praised by your generation.

it's probably important to define talentless about right here.

if you can't play your own instruments, if you have to have the singing piped in to make up for your lack of singing ability, if you have to hire someone to write and perform your music, it's a pretty fair bet you are talentless.

I'm not knocking new music, rap, country or anything else because I've heard a lot of good artists in all of it. what irks me is the ashlee simpson types who think we as consumers owe them a career in music because they think they want it. even more repulsive is the labels who want to force this crap down our throats then sue their customers because they don't think they are selling enough of it.

I'm listening to Krokus as I write this. Their last American tour was 17 years ago. I worked as a bouncer on one of those shows. I hear they are going to tour the US again this year. In 17 years will there be anyone who can say that about ashlee simpson?

If, in 17 years, there is anybody who can say that about ashlee simpson, whoever is saying it will probably also be saying that there is no good music being recorded anymore in the year 2023.
Or to put it another way: Who's a Krokus?
The sub-title of this thread says no good music since 1990.
How about 1970? 1960? 1950?
Styles change. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Modern sound is so loud that most of them will be deaf in 17 years anyway -- or was that said in 1990? 1970? 1960?
If the people buying the RIAA music of today like the RIAA music of today, then to them it's good music. To them, the "artists" are "talented". It's not my idea of good music, "artist", or "talented". But I'm not spending any money on it either.
Because I personally think it sucks. But that's a personal judgement, not an absolute evaluation.
Simply put, I'm not going to say modern music, especially if it is tainted by commercial distribution by the RIAA, sucks just because my tastes are for a different style.

Hey, Mike, we take a step back and read all of this stuff, and it becomes clear.

We all sound like our friggin parents!

ROTFL

It just so happens that my download project consists of nothing but old stuff (from 1950 to 1979).

The new stuff they come out with does suck, and you have to keep going to the record store to keep up to date.

With oldies, there are only so many songs and that's it.

"The sub-title of this thread says no good music since 1990.
How about 1970? 1960? 1950?"

My point was not that music of the 60's 70's and 80's wasn't significant. Hell this thread has me jamming to Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, and Bob Mould all in the one loop. I figure music stopped mattering in the early 90's with the death of Alternative Music, mergers of the major labels and the rise of Uncle Edgar Stalin.....I mean Bronfman. My hope would be that the masses so feed up with nonsense like Gangsta Rap and Ashlee Simpson will demand change. Change that the antiquated music industry can't overlook.

Oh How Sweet It would be to hear Fugazi on the radio on the drive to work. One day maybe!

Fed up that is....*

I want to express my opinion briefly, instead of writing an historical essay to illustrate that this a part of a 20- to 30-year cycle. Probably unavoidable. There's a country phase next.

If the majors last that long.

Gadfly, eventually the masses will get fed up with Gangsta rap and demand (more like spend bucks on) change. It will be the younger ones in the masses. And the older ones in the masses will complain that the new music is talentless and meaningless, and not pertinent like the gangsta rap of their day.
As someone else said, take a step back...and we all sound like our parents.
Ask me, and I'll agree that modern music sucks.
I'll even say that to me the music of the 90s sucked.
But I'm not going to blame the RIAA for the state of modern music. They're just trying to figure out what the masses will spend money on, just like they did in the 90s and 70s and 50s.
And I'm not going to make any absolute judgement call that the music of today is no good for whatever various reasons. Let history judge the value of today's music when the next century dawns.
"Baroque" originally meant "crazy music" when the new cats like Bach came up with it in defiance of the tastes of the earlier generations.

"Hey, Mike, we take a step back and read all of this stuff, and it becomes clear.

We all sound like our friggin parents!"

yup... i know i do.. in fact if my mom would read this.. it be " i told ya so"

Levi!

"I'll even say that to me the music of the 90's sucked."

See I wouldn't go so far as to make a claim that any era Pre-90's stinks. Though I will make the argument that I don't remember Nirvana, Soundgarden, or STP f.cking up on SNL like Ashee Simpson did despite their many personal or drug problems. How anyone couldn't blame the RIAA (and Papa Joe) for that debacle is beyond me. I'm in my 30's and don't necessary think of myself as the younger masses but still have a sense of today's artists like Paul Newman, Mogwai,Stephen Malkmus, and Will Oldham understanding their plight of not crossing over to the mainstream which is a direct result of the RIAA.To not sound like our parents, it's part of our responsibility as contributors to this web site to keep the information on artists of today fresh and help them with notoriety removing the deadwood once and for all . Not doing so makes us no different than the 50 year old hacks like McGrath and Freston who have choked off any cutting edge creativity you may have found or forced on eMTv. Maybe what the music world needs once more is a wiff of Teen spirit. Why shouldn't it all begin at grassroots blogs like this one?
The next "Big" thing in music is long overdue. I just hope it rocks!....If we're thinking "historical" it always does!

Which thankfully should leave P Diddy out of work.

I was just watching a Queen video and I remembered this thread. So I just had to come back and express my misgivings that either the RIAA or independent music will ever give us another band like Queen, Kiss, Parliament-Funkadelic, Earth, Wind & Fire, Electric Light Orchestra, nor any of the other bands from the past who gave fans spectacular value for their money, and are still blowing people away 30 years after the fact as they watch old videos and wish that music like that was still possible.

My feelings on this were more thoroughly explored in this article a few years ago. http://www.boycott-riaa.com/article/8421 And sadly, nothing has changed.

I think it was in 1979 or 1980 that I heard a big name record producer say in a radio interview when asked what kind of art he was looking for in music in the future, “Art? I don’t even want to hear about art in rock music anymore.” And sadly, that attitude seems to have grown until it has destroyed everything.

I would be very surprised if you could show me any band that has come out since 2000 which I would not be able to point out some band from the past that totally blows them away.

When the RIAA says they need money to go out and look for new talent, they aren’t thinking, “We have to get out there and find a band to do for this generation what Queen did for theirs. They are thinking about finding some act that is only slightly impressive so that young people will think they must be rock gods because they’re slightly better than most of the pure crap that now dominates the Top 40. But, if you could get the young people to go back and take a serious look at how much we once had, they would begin to understand just how much they have been robbed of by industry idiots who put momentary profits before art and honest to God great entertainment.

“We all sound like our friggin parents!”

My father, now in his 80’s, still loves Pink Floyd, Queen, Emerson Lake & Palmer, Styx, Deep Purple, Yes, Rick Wakeman, Mike Oldfield, The Moody Blues, Renaissance, Al Stewart, Alan Parsons Project, and many others.

Why is that? It’s because the music of the 70’s was of such outstanding quality that it transcended the generations, and older people could appreciate it on the basis of its artistic content. No music produced strictly for the purpose of being a flash in the pan momentary fad can compete with that kind of quality.

Yes, Virginia, the music of the 70’s really was better.

Why do you think they call it Classic Rock? It was made to be played forever.

nope. my father hated music. beat my ass once for singing along with "funeral for a friend" the man didn't like music of any kind. I'd have to say that I don't sound anything like him.

and Krokus was a Swiss band back in the 80's that had a run of semi hits like "eat the rich", "the blitz" and "our love"

I'm going back to some hard core new years reveling now.

Otaku, many of those of us raised with earlier music think the music of the 70 sucked.
We liked music played with instruments that didn't have to be plugged in the make a sound, played by people who could read music, and led by a guy named a "conductor" who arranged things so the different musicians could play together.
Music was written by one guy called a composer. Words were written by another specialist called a lyricist. Another guy with good vocal cords, called a "singer" sang the words, while a bunch of specialists on different instruments played the music.
In the 70s, all these functions were filled by one guy or a group of guys who spent maybe a year learning to play a few chords on an electric guitar. Man, what talent they had to do all those things at once. It goes a long way to explain why the music of the 70s was so bad.
What I'm really trying to say, Otaku, is that one listener's opinion is worth...well, one listener's opinion. Another listener might disagree.
It's the guy who makes absolute judgements whose opinion is worth..well, just one listener's opinion.
The guys who call it Classic Rock are like the guys who call something an instant classic. Expresing an opinion.
Say the RIAA music after the 90s sucked and the music of the 70s was great, and you're just as likely to find someone say the same thing about the music of the 70s sucking and the music of the 50s being great.
There are fewer folks left from the 50s than the 70s. But there are fewer of you from the 70s than kids today, so you'd best not imply the majority is right just because it's a majority.
When I implied that history could judge music on an absolute scale a hundred years from now, I meant that we are all too involved in our own likes and dislikes to make a real judgement.

What would I say? I am your parents....and there's good music to be found in any time...if you don't close your mind. There are always musicians who make music out of love...not out of love for money. You just gotta find them. They are there. Almost time...to say from the east coast Happy New Year...listen with your heart...love with your heart...the music is always there.

ShadowMom has got it. There is always good music from any era. While I have a fondness for the music that I grew up with, there are LOTS of good bands that I've heard in the past 5 - 10 years whose music I enjoy: Supergrass, Wide Mouth Mason, Ocean Colour Scene, Super Furry Animals, Sufjan Stevens, Polyphonic Spree, Eric Matthews, Wondermints, Green Day, Juliana Hatfield, Kula Shaker, Tripping Daisy, Guided by Voices, Sloan, Wellwater Conspiracy, The Soundtrack of Our Lives, Jump Little Children, ...

in 50 minutes it will be next year. at this time I'd like to apologize in advance for anything stupid I'm likely to do. hope eve3rybody has a great new year.

Great list there IFeelFree allow me add some more....

764 Hero, Album Leaf, Apples In Stereo, Arab Strap, Bettie Serveert, Boards Of Canada, Charlatans UK, Dianogah, Echo and The Bunnymen, Mark Lanegan, Hum, Jets To Brazil, Cat Power, Mercury Program, Sebadoh, Soundtrack Of Our Lives, Tricky, Vast...

Trans Am, Sloan, Sam Prekop, Red House Painters, PJ Harvey, Pele, Pavement, National Skyline, Minus The Bear, Kinski, June Of 44.

Not a bad idea ringing in the New Year with some of these bands.

On a side note...best band of the 1970's??? YES!
Make sure to check out their album Close To The Edge....Fragile a good runnerup.

“Otaku, many of those of us raised with earlier music think the music of the 70 sucked.
We liked music played with instruments that didn't have to be plugged in the make a sound, played by people who could read music, and led by a guy named a "conductor" who arranged things so the different musicians could play together.
Music was written by one guy called a composer. Words were written by another specialist called a lyricist. Another guy with good vocal cords, called a "singer" sang the words, while a bunch of specialists on different instruments played the music.
In the 70s, all these functions were filled by one guy or a group of guys who spent maybe a year learning to play a few chords on an electric guitar. Man, what talent they had to do all those things at once. It goes a long way to explain why the music of the 70s was so bad.”

It is unfortunate, but this statement is pretty sure proof that you haven’t heard enough music from the 70’s to understand what I’m talking about. You are actually talking the way my father talked before he heard Keith Emerson playing toccatas on a church organ, or heard Deep Purple performing a concerto of their own composition with the London Philharmonic, saw Mike Oldfield performing with a rock band so big that it very definitely did require a conductor, heard Annie Haslam’s operatically trained voice, or listened to Queen on headphones and was blown away by their intricately produced harmonic arrangements.

The main attraction to most of the older people I knew back then who appreciated serious rock music was that the musicians were indeed not only classically trained, but quite skilled at bringing rock, classical music, progressive jazz, blues, deep lyrical folk rock and musical theater together in one new music form with infinite possibilities and the deepest of philosophical meaning.

It seems it’s not just the kids of today who need to go back and find out what they’ve missed.

Best Band of the 70's : The Doors .

Also worth checking out :

Jefferson Airplane (not Starship)
Aretha Franklin
Jeff Beck
Blind Faith
The Blues Brothers Soundtrack
Brand X
Jack Bruce
The Cars
Eric Clapton
The Clash
Jimmy Cliff
Elvis Costello
Creedence Clearwater Revival
Devo
Dire Straits
Emerson Lake and Palmer
Jimmy Hendrix
Joe Jackson
The Kinks
Pink Floyd
The Police
The Pretenders
Lou Reed
Sade
Santana
Lynard Skynard
Steely Dan
Steppenwolf
Talking Heads (#2 on my list)
Traffic
Hot Tuna
Stevie Ray Vaughn
Weather Report
The Who
Yardbirds
Yellowjackets
Neil Young
Frank Zappa
Warren Zevon

Noobs, there's alot of old stuff out there besides the Beatles and Rolling Stones.

Check the list out (by whatever means),
and give them a listen. If you like what you hear visit a used CD store and by the CD.
Get a decent pair of headphones and I GUARANTEE you will eschew mp3s.

And as a bonus the lyrics actually had something to say besides oops I did it again.

I have yet to hear any lyrics as engaging and thought provoking as Dylan or Morrison.

Oops. forgot the B52's (The Nude on the Moon
compilation is awesome)

Gadfly, "The YES Album" is pretty good too.

Roundabout has always been a favorite for evaluating speakers/headphones/cartridges.

And before you start flaming me about 'promoting' RIAA signed artists please reread the part about the used CD store, sales from which benefit the RIAA not one iota.

Go to their concerts, buy their t-shirts, send them money directly.

Just don't buy their CD's new at any store.
Rent them from a library to check them out.
Borrow them from friends or friends' parents.

Don't pay RIAA lawyers to usurp your fair use rights and injure innocent people with outlandish lawsuits. Just to be clear.

Warning: Strongly worded and potentially offensive rant ahead.

“I meant that we are all too involved in our own likes and dislikes to make a real judgement. “

That argument might hold some water, if I was a die hard fan of any one type of music, rather than a fan of all music in general and something of a musical historian. Based on that experience, rather than my taste, I’m telling you, the knowledge of how to make good music of lasting consequence has all but been lost in America. We don’t even know how to make good meaningless pop music anymore.

The RIAA is directly to blame for a large part of America’s cultural decline, because they’ve worked as hard as they can for decades to dissuade musicians from creative ambitions and limited the musical experience of our youth to the most uncreative types of composition imaginable. But it is also the fault of our inept educational system, and let us not forget the chief culprits, the parents who let their children grow up in ignorance of their own culture.

It’s true that we may now be saying some of the same things our parents said. But they were not really listening to the music. They were speaking out of prejudice. That’s not what most of us are doing today. The sad fact is that today’s music has really become everything our parents thought our music was. Today’s music is of no positive value. It is so negative as to be oppressive to the spirit, demeaning to one’s self esteem, little more than a promotion for a life of sex, drugs and street crime, with no positive alternatives to offset the negative music.

Where is the Yes of this generation? Where are the bands with the positive hopeful messages, and please do not say Christian Rock. (Brainwashing and subjugation is not what I call positive.) Where is there even a Steppenwolf to stand up and rail at the government for this generation?

Somebody earlier accused gangsta rappers of being posers because they’d pee their pants in the presence of real mobsters. Well, I feel the same way about today’s rock bands. In my time rock bands had balls. When something was wrong in America they got up in everyone’s face and made sure we knew there was a need for change, and that they were on the side of their fans.

The youth of America is getting screwed right and left these days. Our country is going down the toilet. The environmental regulations have been removed to the point that in another couple of years we’ll be swimming in acid rain and half our children will be born retarded. We’ve been duped into another meaningless war, for Christ’s sake. Our constitutional rights are about to be sold to a world business tyranny. And you know one of the major reasons why this is happening? Our rock bands have no balls. They’d piss their pants if they ever had to stand toe to toe with the powers that be. They’re wimpy little do nothing posers who sit around whining all day because people don’t think they’re music is worth paying for. Well, guess what, it’s not. And the young people of today know it. They don’t even need their elders to tell them how bad their music is, they’re telling us.

So now we’re going to try to be all politically correct and say, “Oh, we’re not fit to judge today’s music because it’s just another generation gap thing.” You know what? If we go off on a cop out like that, we have no balls either.

It reminds me of the Cheech & Chong skit about the two Eskimos contemplating the dog leavings. Do you really need to pick it up, feel it and taste it to know a piece of crap when you see one? And would you really stand idly by while some industrial conglomerate or government forced your children to eat crap on a daily basis until they developed a taste for it? Geez, our parents may have been out of it as far as the modern music scene was concerned, but at least if they thought we were eating crap they didn’t make up excuses to avoid trying to dissuade us from such habits. Our parents were just square. Today’s parents are guilty of depraved indifference.

Otaku said "The RIAA is directly to blame for a large part of America’s cultural decline, because they’ve worked as hard as they can for decades to dissuade musicians from creative ambitions and limited the musical experience of our youth to the most uncreative types of composition imaginable"
So the RIAA works (and as hard as it can) against its own interests -- making money? Just so they can be meanies? I'm glad you're not prejudiced; just think of what you might say about them if you were biased.
If we want to win, we have to fight against the real RIAA, not mythical meanies. The people there buy what they think will pay off. They try to guess what buyers will like. They don't try to supress any band or musical style just so they can gather around a board table and cackle about how they denied good music to the public. No money in that.
Otaku said "It’s true that we may now be saying some of the same things our parents said. But they were not really listening to the music. They were speaking out of prejudice. That’s not what most of us are doing today"
If you can declare with absolute certainty that others were prejudiced but you're not, then there's no room for discussion. As someone once said, "the problem with censorship is, look at the people who want to be the censors". If you are declaring yourself the arbiter of good musical taste because others are prejudiced and you are not, no one who disagrees with you can make a judgement without per se being prejudiced.
Remember, I agree with you, and the original poster, about the lack of good music in modern music. But I recognize that it's an opinion, and the kids shelling out big bucks to buy modern music have their opinion.
I'm pointing out that the earlier generation people said the same thing about the so-called "classic rock" of the 70s way back then. I'm sure there were some of them who said they weren't prejudiced too.

I agree with Shmoo,.

HAPPY NEW YEAR ONE AND ALL.

~Code
http://www.boycott-mpaa.com

Otaku, well said. I couldn't agree more.

There is no rebellion in music anymore.

No "Ohio" to protest 4 students dead at Kent State by National Guard bullets.

No "Pressure Drop" to assure dissent.

No "20th Century Man" to long for simpler times.

No "Gotta Serve Somebody" for perspective on capitalism.

No "Rockin in the free world" to inspire against commercialism.

No Daltrey screaming "Who the Fuck are YOU" against the establishment.

No "Cars Hiss by my Window" to accent what it is to be alone.

What we get from the RIAA today is oooh baby while Ashcroft puts Tommy Chong in prison for selling glass pipes.

Vapid and soulless tripe courtesy of ClearChannel.

I gave my parents music (Goodman,Sinatra etc.) a shot and now realize some of it is actually really good even if I didn't realize it at the time.

I'm trying to find some redeeming value in new commercial music but somehow just cannot.

New indie music is a whole different story, much more variation. It just isn't getting airplay. fairplay.

"MODERN RIAA MUSIC SIMPLY SUX BY COMPARISON! (Sonically, lyrically, Compositionally, Inspirationally, etc.) "

Modern RIAA music sucks ( double bold on RIAA ).
It's the fear of taking a risk that would seem to be the cause.
As pointed out here by several posters,
it's still all out there. All of the rebellion, inventiveness, clarity and cleverness. It's ALL still out there, but it's risky.
Shareholders don't want risk, they want guaranteed return. The RIAA takes the safe road, shallow content and pretty faces.
This is why they must die

Oh hell yeah gfmlcka The Yes Album was another good one. I completely forgot about it.

Otaku, Take heart! There are many fine bands of today that could rank up there with their 70's counterparts.

For every instrumental band like YES, there is a Don Caballero and Tortoise.

If you're looking for somebody with messages try Steve Earle.

The RIAA has given up altogether with building fine bands for the long term. They're giving us fluff over talent. Think of them like the mpaa. No creativity and plenty of remakes. The idiots are bankrupt both morally and creatively. They feel so good with their rap and pop music. They'd rather bury Indie bands before bringing them to public awareness. A decade ago the major labels were scared to death of the rise of Nirvana. They were happy with the Michael Jackson crap. Made them feel so politically correct and oh so good about themselves. Hell the cowards were frightened in the 50's when Elvis started doing his thing.

So that pretty much put us on our own Otaku to find good music. And I'm happy to announce that it "is" out there if you take the time to look.

"The RIAA takes the safe road, shallow content and pretty faces.
This is why they must die "

Great post Dreddsnik! Couldn't have said it better myself.

Gadfly says, "There's no rebellion in music anymore"
Personally, I think rap is about as low as music has ever sunk. But don't you think Gangsta Rap is popular because it's striking a chord somewhere? I can't stand it myself, but I can see it's rebellion and protest!
Ah, but it's not your chord, so it doesn't count.
There never was as strong a period of rebellion against the sacred cows of the establishment, in music, as in the 50's and 60's...and the protest was done with wit and style. The Kingston Trio's Merry Minuet, dozens of songs from Broadway shows (The Country's In The Best Of Hands, America, Why Can't The English, Normal American Boy), Freeberg's satire "Take an Indian to Lunch".
gfmlcka, it makes the list you gave look like pablum.
But, hey, guys, that's my OPINION. I don't pretend it's an absolute.
As long as people think their opinions are absolute judgements, especially because they are not prejudiced, you're not going to get anywhere.

"They were happy with the Michael Jackson crap. Made them feel so politically correct and oh so good about themselves."

For our Liberal friends here maybe I should elaborate on my above statement before being flamed. Dreddsnik said that the major labels were playing it safe and Michael Jackson was a perfect example of all this. In the 80's eMTv were getting strongarmed to play more diverse rotation of artists. MTV didn't want to display such artists like Grand Master Flash, Sugarhill Gang, or NWA who were singing about real issues in their communities. No the big labels would rather have Wacko Jacko yapping about little boys or girls or whatever his kookie songs were about. I was safe, P.C. and took the heat off of Viacom.

2006 and nothing has changed! That's why we're all here.....Think about it.

Dredd and Gadfly, who think the RIAA chooses fluff over talent, has given up with building bands, and takes the safe road, shallow content and pretty faces:
The RIAA is an organization. As an organization, it fights for things like political sway and choking copyright restrictions and price fixing.
But it is made up of individual companies (and not many of them). They are competitors. They do not take the safe road, they take the money road. If the teenie bopper buyer spends his $20 someone else, Sony loses that $20.
They are all trying to guess what sound will make the teenie bopper buyer spend the next $20 with them. They are not plotting to suppress good music just so they can be powerful bad guys.
What effect do you think you are going to have on public and political opinion (not to mention judges) if all you do is rant about how evil the RIAA is, and can't even recognize that
a) you are often talking about different companies acting independently
b) not everyone shares your tastes

Gadfly says, "There's no rebellion in music anymore"

anonanonon I believe it was Otaku who made that post.

Everybody know the Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Beach Boys, The Who, etc. But here is my list of the best under-appreciated/under-rated albums of the 60s:

Zombies - Odyssey & Oracle [1968]
Yardbirds - Roger the Engineer [1966]
Kinks - Arthur (or the Decline and Fall of the British Empire) [1969]
Easybeats - Friday On My Mind [1967]
Love - Forever Changes [1967]
Troggs - Love Is All Around [1968]
Chocolate Watchband - No Way Out [1967]
Left Banke - Walk Away Renee/Pretty Ballerina [1967]
Paul Revere & the Raiders - The Spirit of '67 [1966]
Remains - The Remains [1966]
Music Machine - (Turn On) the Music Machine [1966]
Hollies - Evolution [1967]
Move - The Move [1968]
Merry-Go-Round - The Merry-Go-Round [1967]
Action - Rolled Gold (unreleased demo tracks from 1967) [2002]
Tomorrow - Tomorrow [1968]
Sly & the Family Stone - Stand! [1969]
Smoke - It's Smoke Time [1967]
Millenium - Begin [1968]
Leonard Cohen - The Songs of Leonard Cohen [1968]
Misunderstood - Before the Dream Faded (recorded in 1965-66) [1982]
Elli - Elli [1965]
13th Floor Elevators - The Pyschedelic Sounds of [1966]
Idle Race - Birthday Party [1968]
Blood, Sweat & Tears - Child is Father to the Man [1968]
Sundowners - Captain Nemo [1968]
Gentle Soul - Gentle Soul [1968]
Los Shakers - Break It All [1965]

"But it is made up of individual companies (and not many of them). They are competitors."

Funny anonanonon, Bronfman, Sony and the rest look to be all in lock step to me. All charging the same prices, all trying to screw the American public, all with their lawsuits. If you ask me they're all different stinking hands of the same face.

I wrote my last post before Gadfly's post, in which he at least recognizes that there are different labels.
Now if people would only realize that Jackson is put out because he sells, and the labels only care about bottom-line $, we'd get somewhere.
The company's staff have to guess about what will be popular, and often they guess wrong. One label's bad guess might be another's profit, so they are really not concerned just with putting out the same old safe fluff.
Let's not support their claim that they need strong copyright protection so they can invest in new talent.
The labels will continue to guess and invest because that's the only way to make money in the future.

Sorry about the misquote Gadfly -- it was gfmlcka's statement about no rebellion, not yours (nor Otaku's).
I'm still running about one post behind.

IFeelFree I'll match your 70's artists with more of todays if you don't mind.


Pavement - Here
Sebadoh - Rebound
Built To Spill - The Plan
Bettie Serveert - Geek
Helium - Cosmic Rays
Guided By Voices - Bulldog Skin
PJ Harvey - Good Fortune
Mark Lanegan - Slide Machine
June Of 44 - June Leaf
Apples In Stereo - Strawberryfire
Don Caballero - Don Caballero 3
Dismemberment Plan - 8.5 Minutes
Catherine Wheel - Sparks Are Gonna Fly
Ween - The Stallion Pt 3
Wellwater Conspiracy - Born With A Tail
Tricky - Evolution Revolution Love
Tortoise - Ry Cooder
The Gunga Din - Paradoxia
Sunna - Preoccupation
Sun Kil Moon - Salvador Sanchez
Sean Na Na - Unicorns
Sea And Cake - Two Dolphins
Japancakes - Duluth 75
Jack Logan - Metropolis
Gomez - Army Dub
Ghosts And Vodka - Futuristic Genitalia
Fugazi - Lusty Scripps
Firehose - For the Singer of R.E.M.
Brian Jonestown Massacre - Open Heart Surgery
Black Keys - Everywhere I Go
Badly Drawn Boy - You Were Right

The RIAA members are in lock step in some things, competitors in others.
They are price fixing. Their organization is filing lawsuits to protect their stranglehold copyrights. They "support" politicians they like with campaign contributions.
They are vulnerable for all these positions.
They are not trying to screw the American public per se. They do not get together in their board rooms and say, "Hey, it's a slow day today -- let's screw the American public some more."
Try telling a judge they should lose a copyright suit because they are screwing the American public. Try telling a politician to vote against the next copyright extension bill because the RIAA is setting out to screw the American Public.
Try telling either of them that they should oppose the RIAA because it supports talentless music. They probably agree that the today's music is no good, but they'll laugh at your argument.
The companies compete to lock up the music that will sell tomorrow. If they think something will sell, they'll try to put it under contract. They don't judge quality, they judge potential sales. Often they guess wrong. The losses are built in the profit they make when they guess right.
It's about money, not about talent. It's the American way.

I wrote my last post before Gadfly's post, in which he at least recognizes that there are different labels.

Absolutely anonanonon. I'm just as sympathetic for Indie rock as I am for Indie rap.....and we're not talking 50cent here, bling bling, or anything Russel Simmons is throwing out there with the help of Uncle Edgar!

"They do not get together in their board rooms and say, "Hey, it's a slow day today -- let's screw the American public some more."

At charging the American public 17.99 for a cd with one good song or pushing Steven Jobs to increase the 99cents Ipod songs I beg the differ. The swine "are" working together. If they were competitors they wouldn't all be charging the "same" damn price would they?. Don't be fooled.

Don't know about any of you but I'm done giving these sharks my hard earned money.

The good music is still out there, but now you have to find it yourself. There is no untainted, reliable source of honest music criticism to separate the wheat from the chaff in the Internet age.

That's correct, George. For most of us, who have been "told" what was good and bad by the majors via their paid flunkies on AM, FM and MTV for so many years, it's a bit like learning to reuse your limbs after 3 decades of coma.

The majors, I know, have been run by scum since they started, but at least there used to be people in music organizations who managed to get talent through to us. It is those particular people who the RIAA have eliminated. These people had enough brains to take risks, understanding that good bands were a good investment. Today's venture capitalists want to buy in the morning and sell by noon....long term has turned from 10 years to 3 months.

Gadfly, I said -- twice -- the RIAA members are guilty of price fixing. Why quote me, and then try to refute my statement by proving the RIAA is price fixing?
I said they do not get together in their board rooms and say "let's screw the American public" etc If you think they are "swine" who just look for ways to screw the American public for fun, you're going to look like a ranting fool in front of the judges and politicians and most of all that American Public whose favorable opinion we must have to win.
You don't write like a fool. Look at what the RIAA really is, and not at some makshift target for mindless invective.
Some people on this board sound like spoiled children who think they sound like adults because they've learned a few crass words, throwing temper tantrums because they can't have their free music. Mindless venting has its place I guess, and here is as good a place as any. But I really hate to think their attitude escapes into the real world, because it works against us just as surely as the RIAA suing grandmothers and Sony sabotaging PCs works for us.

“So the RIAA works (and as hard as it can) against its own interests -- making money? “

On the contrary, that’s all they do think about. And for some reason they think they can make more money by creating flash in the pan one or two hit album wonders, then dropping them before it comes time for a new contract.

Why is this? Maybe because they figure if they promote artists who are good enough to remain popular beyond their initial contract, they might, God forbid, have to let the musicians end up with some take home pay.

Does somebody have to throw a bucket of ice water on these “Give the RIAA the benefit of the doubt” idiots before they wake up. The RIAA does not base its profit schemes on finding talent and providing a product people want to buy. They make their money by creating a prefabricated product of their own design and forcing it into the face of our children until they feel compelled to like it.

And when they discovered they couldn’t make enough money to suit them that way they went into the business of copyright exploitation. That’s why there is rarely, if ever, a defense for any RIAA recording act that has come out since 2000.

The RIAA is not in the music business anymore. That is now nothing more than a thinly disguised front for their real racket. They are in the business of suing people.

“I'm pointing out that the earlier generation people said the same thing about the so-called "classic rock" of the 70s way back then. I'm sure there were some of them who said they weren't prejudiced too.”

And I’m showing you the difference. The difference was, when my father came down on 70’s rock with the exact same prejudice you (anonanonon) displayed a few posts ago, I could sit him down with the music, show him how valid and interesting it was, and have him turn into a bigger rock fan than I was. Heck, he was the one who dragged me to the Pink Floyd concert in 1987. I wasn’t even that interested.

The difference is that kind of thing is not possible today. You can’t sit older people down with the music of today an show them how it’s valid. Why? BECAUSE IT’S NOT VALID. It has nothing artistic to say, it promotes the most destructive social values in the most offensive language imaginable. And the musicianship . . . WHAT MUSICIANSHIP? Has it completely escaped your notice that the RIAA signs people based on what they look like, rather than whether they have any musical talent or not?

The RIAA does not sell music. They sell star packages. Good musicianship gets in the way of selling star packages. If young people had good enough music to get a grip on what real musicianship was, they might be inclined to get educated on the subject. And educated people do not buy star packages.

It is in the best interest of the RIAA, the Bush administration, and big business in general to keep America dumb. And this sorry excuse for real music that now dominates our pop culture is the second best brain rotting tool a would-be fascist empire has ever devised. The first being television.

“The good music is still out there, but now you have to find it yourself. “

I won’t say I don’t hold out hope for Indie. But my efforts to find good Indie music that matches or in any way restores the excitement and enthusiasm I once felt for music is not surfacing. Unlike some people here I do not have time to go to one of these independent marketing sites and formally audition 300 or so albums. I can get through 20 to 30, but still find nothing worth buying. Sometimes the ideas are good, but the talent, experience and production quality isn’t there.

Every once in a while I’ll say this Indie band is good enough to warrant buying a CD, if the price is fair. But I will still not say, “This is a great band that I’m going to be a fan of for 30 years, and which is going to become a significant part of the soundtrack of my life.” Rather, I say, “This is okay to waste a little money on, even though I’ll probably wear it out in less than a year.”

I’m glad some people have time to sift through two tons of mediocre efforts to find these legendary great Indie bands. But it’s not practical for most people. It’s too time consuming and unrewarding.

The big problem is that many of these Indie bands suffer from a depleted awareness of what constitutes good music and how to make it. They’ve been inundated with low RIAA standards for too long.

With time they may grow out of this and start learning how to make truly great music again. But people touting the discoveries of only moderately good bands as if they’d discovered a new Queen is not going to help raise the standards of modern music back to the heights we once achieved.

Thus I am critical of Indie, because I want to encourage it to improve. It has a long way to go before it restores what the RIAA has destroyed.

Otaku said, "The RIAA does not base its profit schemes on finding talent and providing a product people want to buy. They make their money by creating a prefabricated product of their own design and forcing it into the face of our children until they feel compelled to like it." Wrong. This kind of business model would put the company that followed it out of business while its competitors thrived. Defy basic economics, and your mindless rants will be influence the politicians and public exactly the way the RIAA needs to get moe stringent laws
passed.
Otaku said, "And when they discovered they couldn’t make enough money to suit them that way they went into the business of copyright exploitation" They've been in the business of copyright exploitation from the beginning, way before "rock" meant anything but a stone and "rap" a knock on wood.
Otaku said, "The RIAA is not in the music business anymore. That is now nothing more than a thinly disguised front for their real racket. They are in the business of suing people." That's plain silly. Their costs are higher than the few dollars they take in. They're spending the money to save the millions they get from selling CDs to people who do not consider sucy CDs "forced into their face"
Otaku said, "... the exact same prejudice you (anonanonon) displayed a few posts ago." Of course I did; I not only displayed it but I told you it was prejudice as I did. OK, so you (and the dad you sat down and convinced) are not prejudiced, so your opinion is the only one that counts, and we should all follow your lead...is that what you're trying to tell us?
Tell it to the judge. Tell it to Congress. Tell it to the American Public. Tell them how "VALID" your judgements are. And watch them laugh at your opinionated rantings as they rubber stamp the next RIAA request for more restrictive legislation.

Doesn't anyone recognize that the RIAA is an organization of competing companies. They join together to fix prices. They join to enforce their excessive copyright lock.
But they compete with each other for the dollars spent on music. They don't want to supress good music; they want to control the rights to it. They buy the music and bands that they guess the public wants to buy. They often guess wrong. But no company supresses good music deliberately, because a competitor will grab it and sell it and the sales will take money away from them.

“Doesn't anyone recognize that the RIAA is an organization of competing companies. “

No, I recognize the RIAA as an attempt to create a united conglomerate monopoly where there is no competition, and no choice for the American consumer. I recognize the RIAA for what they are, organized criminals hiding behind the laws which they paid to have put in place.

I don’t need to prove the RIAA are criminals. All you need to do is watch the news articles on the net. A day does not pass without new RIAA crimes coming to light. I don’t even have to come to this site to hear about RIAA crimes anymore. They are all over the top news articles that show up on my Google home page.

Go to Wikipedia and read the encyclopedia entry on the RIAA. One paragraph about their stated purpose and then a whole page of the crimes they’ve been accused of. Even the free encyclopedia seems to recognize that society looks on the RIAA as the modern equivalent of the organized criminal. Nor can they find any purpose of value in this organization to present as a justification for their existence or the power they wield. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA

“But no company supresses good music deliberately, because a competitor will grab it and sell it and the sales will take money away from them.”

The RIAA does not have any competitors capable of taking money away from them. This is the collective American recording industry we are talking about. Not 4 independent labels. They come up with rules and all members are expected to be united on them.

Yes, they do suppress music that does not conform to what they have collectively decided to force onto the public. They are interested in promoting fads, not bands who might conflict with whatever fad they are pushing.

What do they care if they discard a good band who doesn’t fit their current fad scheme. All they can do is go to an independent label and enjoy minimal sales, if they’re lucky. This in no way constitutes competition for the RIAA’s mass mind controlled preferred market.

Stop thinking about this logically. In one day you can pull up enough news articles on the net to conclusively show that nothing that’s happening in America is based on any ideal of good business practices. Everything is calculated towards pushing the American consumer into a box where every aspect of their lives will be controlled. And the RIAA is in on this scheme up to its eyeballs. The music itself doesn’t even rate as a secondary agenda. It is all about setting up a system whereby a conglomerate like the RIAA can produce any shoddy piece of crap product they want and force people to buy it.

It’s not logical. It’s Orwellian. And you are the one playing right into their hands by insisting on us looking at the RIAA as if it was just a normal business entity with the normal concerns of supply and demand, when it’s quite obvious that they’re not.

Let us not forget the most common defense of mobsters when they face accusations. “Hey, I’m just a businessman.” Does the world have to fall apart around your ears before you realize the difference between business and organized crime on a global scale?

Otaku said, "I recognize the RIAA for what they are, organized criminals hiding behind the laws ..."
You recognize them for what they are...or they are what you recognize them for. If you are this biased, there is no hope for the cause of boycotting the RIAA, or getting giveaway copyright laws reversed, or fining them for price fixing. Because people like you can be dismissed as ranters without merit.
Last summer, during the height of the shark scare, I read a supermarket rag headline that claimed Castro was training sharks to attack America. A joke, right? Who takes seriously any conspiracy nut who believes it.
To the American public, the judges in court cases, and the politicians who, bought or not, pass the laws, you are just screaming that the RIAA is training sharks.

"Unlike some people here I do not have time to go to one of these independent marketing sites and formally audition 300 or so albums."

If you're fed up with what the RIAA are offering and "classic" rock is only going so far and you want something new and love music, You're going to sample other sources. If anything just out of curiosity. Maybe because of word of mouth. Maybe because somebody here recommended it. Who can say if the next “Queen” are on the Indie labels right now. Who would have thought Nirvana in 1989 on Sub Pop would have ended up in nothing but in bargain basement bins? Nobody seen Nevermind coming. Why do I keep using Nirvana as an example? It’s when the world was right for once and Indie music became mainstream. It can happen again because it “has” happen before.

anonanonon seems to think that the RIAA do their "business" with some kind of honor. This I find kinda funny....Like they're beyond reproach. MMM and I suppose Enron are going to pay out all those pensions too! I wouldn’t have faith in anything these folks are doing.

"This kind of business model would put the company that followed it out of business while its competitors thrived. "

Unless "competitors" are locked out of all mainstream distribution channels by payola, legislative control, or technological lockout. That's not even considering keeping out competition financially by making it impossible for competitors to afford the same tools available to the cartel.
Many labels, but really, one source, one outlet.
Head of Medusa.

( notice, the Indy market is picking up a lot. maybe not to much longer befire the competition IS thriving. So, you're not wrong, are you ? )

“If you are this biased, there is no hope for the cause of boycotting the RIAA, or getting giveaway copyright laws reversed, or fining them for price fixing. Because people like you can be dismissed as ranters without merit.”

No movement for social change has ever been accomplished without ranting - people making so much noise that the public and politicians could no longer close their ears.

Ranters are not automatically dismissed as being without merit. It all depends on how much corroboration they can put behind their rants - how many known events they can pull together to show a logical pattern that people can understand.

And for the record, I am not biased. I’m informed. It’s people like you who insist that we be wimpy in expressing our anger towards the RIAA’s crimes that keeps them in place and allows them to accumulate more and more power to come back later and give us a bigger screwing.

This has been out in the open for 6 friggin years. They commit crimes, they get a slap on their wrist, they come back and commit bigger crimes. If people don’t start screaming soon that this cycle of escalating corruption be stopped, we’re not going to have anymore laws we can appeal to for protection.

We need every last articulate ranting outraged consumer we can get.

I went to a Jerry Riopelle concert last night. He was a local star in Phoenix, but nowhere else, except maybe Holland. The guy who started Phoenix's first rock station liked Riopelle. Everyone in Arizona loves the guy. He was a regional success as the result of local radio.

I didn't spend the 70s in Arizona. Everyone in the place knew all the words and the crowd was singing along to songs I never heard before. It was freaky. Like being in an alternate universe. I expected Rod Serling to tap on my shoulder.

The rock world in Arizona in the 1970s was very different from the rock world in San Francisco or Chicago or Detroit or Kansas City or New York.

What happened in the 1990s that changed everything for the worse? Clear Channel. There was a song called "Stupid People" by a local band that got some airplay in the late 90s, but that's the only one I've heard in the last decade. In a city of 3 million or so, you won't hear a song by a local artist in any genre, unless you count Alice Cooper, Stevie Nicks or the Gin Blossoms. They don't play Riopelle on the radio any more either.

And the radio in Kansas City plays the same songs as Phoenix, or LA or Detroit or New York.

FM radio used to offer a cultural counterpoint to the repetitive Top 40 format of AM. Clear Channel took over FM radio in the late 90s, brought thew Top 40 idea with it and, as a result, has been the single greatest force to reduce all music to the lowest common denominator. There's one flavor now, its content has been politically censored and you'd better like it because that's where the money is.

We lived through disco and hair bands; we'll live through this.

The above discussion always seems relevant but I deleted it the first three times. I still don't feel like I got to the point and I've spent all day trying to pin this down.

So here's one last story...

[O]n Aug. 3, 1966, Chas Chandler, the bassist of the Animals and a fledgling impresario, saw him (Jimi Hendrix) play ''Hey Joe'' at the Cafe Wha? in Greenwich Village. Chandler spilled a milkshake on himself.

Spirited off to England seven weeks later, Hendrix started turning heads at jam sessions within hours of his arrival...

During one early gig attended by John Lennon, Paul McCartney, Eric Clapton, Pete Townshend, Jimmy Page, Jeff Beck and others, the singer Terry Reid ran into Brian Jones of the Rolling Stones outside the bathroom. Jones told him it was all wet up front. What? ''It's wet from all the guitar players crying,'' Jones said.

--------

And it wasn't because Jimi was getting paid more than they were.

The most underappreciated band of the 1960s was the group of guys who played on every Motown album.

to quote a movie

"all the music had to be good back in the day cuz they didnt have no skip button like today...couldnt make it on just one song, the whole album had to be good"

but then again...i know ppl who can listen and actaully like listening to the whole young buck, or 50 cent cds and absolutely cant stand anything with so much as a single real instrument in it...

its all a matter of opinion...and here in the united states...its the popular opinion that matters...u guessed it...the opinion of those ppl that like that shitty music

personally...i like music in general...except for classical, the "50s style", most country, rap...and emo...its just not a very apealing vocal most of the time...so that leaves everything from Ray Charles to Wild Cherry, Lynard Skynard, Pantera, Metallica, and Rise Against...

so i leave you with this....dont issue a premature judgement about music becuase of its genre...judge it on its sound

A few of those guys backed John Belushi and Dan Akroid many years later and many years ago. (Among a ZILLION other things most of us know and would recognize!)

"its all a matter of opinion...and here in the united states...its the popular opinion that matters...u guessed it...the opinion of those ppl that like that shitty music "

I still think this is a myth.
It only seems that way because the distribution channels are so locked down that we ONLY GET TO HEAR WHAT THE MAJORS WANT TO SELL.

Shitty or not, here it comes.

In an issue of "Mad" magazine I read as
a kid I remember a quote from a "Korporate" character in one of their pieces. Ths suit was a book publisher, but the mindset is EXACTLY how all major media is run now ......

" We're only interested in new stuff that's almost exactly like what they're reading now. We KNOW they'll buy that. "

The majority of music lovers simply are not aware of how much is out there that has nothing to do with the labels, simply because the labels don't allow the competition on the "playground".

I can't blame the sheeple for not wanting what they are not allowed to know exists.

Let's show 'em the way.

Gadfly said, "anonanonon seems to think that the RIAA do their "business" with some kind of honor"
Where did you get that idea? Because I don't mindlessly rant against them, making them symbols of unmitigated evil regardless of the facts.
I said their actions are driven by money. They price fix, they seek overly restrictive control over copyrights, they give very little back to artists composers who aren't blockbuster hits, they sue consumers, they compete with each other -- there's no honor in any of that, and I never implied there was.
You don't see the real RIAA at all -- just a caricature that you've created in your own mind. I guess anybody who doesn't see the same caricature gets mindlessly classed as an RIAA supporter. Sometimes that kind of braindead bigotry works, but mostly people see it as false. In the struggle against RIAA control, we can't afford too many false prophets who make themselves objects of derision for the so-called American Public

Otaku said, "No movement for social change has ever been accomplished without ranting". Yes. The difference is ranting without merit. You've tried to show your ranting has merit. You get off to a good start...these kind of reasoned arguments are what we need to convince the undecided public, not the mindless name-calling of other posts.
And then you say, "And for the record, I am not biased. I’m informed" What biased person ever said otherwise? This is the theme song of biased people everywhere.

"Where did you get that idea? Because I don't mindlessly rant against them, making them symbols of unmitigated evil regardless of the facts."

Ok Mroop you win!

“And then you say, "And for the record, I am not biased. I’m informed" What biased person ever said otherwise? This is the theme song of biased people everywhere. “

anonanonon, I’m getting really tired of these illogical personal attacks. You keep insisting I’m doing the movement some harm simply because I don’t see your completely unsubstantiated view of the RIAA as a legitimate business organization and pander to the ignorance of our politicians who can’t even be bothered to read the news that’s all over the internet.

I can bury you in articles that substantiate my point of view of the RIAA as criminals with an agenda non-conducive to making a profit from their own product. What can you point to that demonstrates the RIAA has the business sense God gave a grapefruit?

I love a good debate as much as anyone, but I’m a put up or shut up kind of guy. Here’s a quote from a news post on this very site that shows I’m not the only one comparing the RIAA to gangsters.

“We probably shouldn't find this as amusing as we do, but we just can't help thinking it ironic that the RIAA, ever ready to get on its high horse about the propriety of its cause, should employ the tactics of Tony Soprano. Wait, strike that—Tony Soprano's ethics aren't quite that flexible.”
http://www.boycott-riaa.com/article/19130

Now, you show me a quote that substantiates your view that the RIAA are sensible people who exorcise sensible business ideas that will bring them profit from their product, rather than deliberately doing things that any sensible businessman would know would drive the value of their product down.

If you’re going to refute my logic, fine. But you’re going to need more than a simple statement like “You’re biased” to still the rants of angry consumers like myself. Until you can prove something I said wasn’t true, my rants stand un-apologized for.

And by the way, what reason do I supposedly have to be biased? I don’t file share. I’m not against any particular type of music. I have no stake in the matter business wise. DRM doesn’t effect my normal use of music. I’m not a target of the lawsuits. I’m not even a Republican or Democrat.

But you know, I have to wonder what agenda you’re pushing. What progress do you expect to make against the escalating corruption in our government that the RIAA thrives on without the ranting voices of outraged American consumers to back you up? Sounds like RIAA logic to me. Sell music and be successful in business by alienating your supporters.

You expect to go into court and stand some wimpy logical presentation up against a corrupt government that you know has already been paid to rule against you. This is how you’re going to win? And when you lose you’re going to blame it on the people whose back up you rejected? GET OUT OF MY FACE.

"Ok Mroop you win!"

Go fuck yourself, douchebag.

"The Blues Brothers Soundtrack"

You're not much of an R&B fan. The Blues Brothers was white guy watered down crap compared to the real thing. And that first movie is one of my faves. We're putting the band back together!

"and Krokus was a Swiss band back in the 80's that had a run of semi hits like "eat the rich", "the blitz" and "our love""

Krokus! LOL I've got their greatest hits cd. "Screaming In The Night" was the big hit in the early days of MTV and is a good tune. Other than that, they were a hack AC/DC ripoff band. If they do actually tour the US they will draw 100 people to their gigs if they are lucky.

Otaku, you expect to go to court and tell the judge he's been paid to rule against you? That's how you're going to win? You are a danger to the cause.
We have won a few times. We didn't do it by calling the judge, or legislators, paid off. We won by "wimpy" arguments that made sense and looked at the real world, not the one of unredeemed evil monsters you've made up.
You quote the opinion of somebody who agrees with you and is published on a site that agrees with out viewpoint.
You ask why you should be biased. I don't know your life history. But biased people don't need a sensible reason to be biased.
I've never said the RIAA members aren't guilty of some crimes (price-fixing being the one most pursued in the courts right now).
But you want some substantiation of my view?
Supposedly I see them as a legitimate business organization. OK, their bosses aren't in jail. Nor under indictment. World view, public opinion view, legal view of "legitimate." It's your namecalling, comparing them to gangsters, that is not shared by 99% of the world.
You say, "any sensible businessman would know would drive the value...down" If any sensible businessman -- meaning stockholder, or board member -- would know the RIAA leaders are so dumb, they would have replaced them long ago.
I'm not saying some of them don't deserve replacement. Just that your ranting fails to meet the criteria of "sensible" when compared to the success of people who've made it to the top in the real business world.
Please, don't put me in a position of defending these RIAA bosses. I am not on their side. I think they are overly greedy (not a crime) and have colluded to make more profit (mostly a crime). I just don't hold any absurdist view of them as comic book villains who glory in creating evil.
However, fanatical zealots are good sometimes. They make moderate views more likely to be acknowledged in a compromise. You can scream "GET OUT OF MY FACE" at people who don't hold your extremist viewpoint, just don't go strapping any C-4 around your middle and heading for Orin Hatch's office, ok?

"You are actually talking the way my father talked before he heard Keith Emerson playing toccatas on a church organ, or heard Deep Purple performing a concerto of their own composition with the London Philharmonic, saw Mike Oldfield performing with a rock band so big that it very definitely did require a conductor, heard Annie Haslam’s operatically trained voice, or listened to Queen on headphones and was blown away by their intricately produced harmonic arrangements."

I hate to tell you, but a lot of people who know more about rock and roll than you believe that this is the crap that killed rock music. Long winded, overblown, pseudo-classical garbage! Rock and roll is a 3 minute blast from the neighbor kid in the garage who can barely play a few chords. It is "Louie Louie". It is "Psychotic Reaction". Not MIKE FRIGGIN' OLDFIELD. Screw that crap!

Don't worry about mroop folks, He's just mad because he was outed.....again!

Funny though how the second I mentioned his name he was sure to appear......Keep up the sham prick. For sure..... none of us were able to see right through "that" one.

"Zombies - Odyssey & Oracle [1968]"

Genius band. Love them. Love them! The Zombies have had quite the resurgence in recent years as hipsters discover them. Zombies!

"Don't worry about mroop folks, He's just mad because he was outed.....again!"

You really think I'm the other guy? Hilarious. I think you are projecting. I have only had one ID on this site - mroop. Although I had over 100 mroop's - as the regulars know. : )

So idiot - why would I need another ID? Is there something I won't say as mroop? Do tell - why would I need another ID?

"Zombies - Odyssey & Oracle [1968]"

Mroop you are just one crazy hip cat there.

Shine on you crazy diamond!

As continue to read, I see Otaku is still an ignorant moron.

The major labels absolutely compete against each other for sales. Otaku is a maroon!

Watch out, anonanonon. If you make sense the idiots will attack you, as you are seeing. They have accused you of being me. Which, in my humble opinon, is a good thing!

Great analysis, George. Regionalism was very important back in those days and a regional hit could turn into a national hit. Sadly, those days are gone.

"The most underappreciated band of the 1960s was the group of guys who played on every Motown album."

The Funk Brothers! As you probably know, they recently made a documentary which I haven't seen yet, but is excellent by all accounts. I believe it is called "Standing In The Shadows Of Motown".

And then of course you had the great Muscle Shoals band, James Brown's incredible backing band featuring the brilliant Maceo Parker and so on .....

Jazz enthusiasts ?

Wayne Shorter .. Schizophrenia

LOL

I'm still laughing about Otaku talking up Mike Oldfield and Alan Parsons and all that crap music like it was the height of rock and roll. Now that's some funny stuff!

Mroop said “I'm still laughing about Otaku talking up Mike Oldfield and Alan Parsons and all that crap music like it was the height of rock and roll. Now that's some funny stuff! “

I was talking about the classic rock era, not even about any specific type of music from that era. Just some of the things it was possible to have older people regard as credible. My father also liked Billy Joel, Jackson Browne, Jim Croce, Charlie Daniels, Commander Cody and Abba. Does that bring things down to your level of musical appreciation?

Now, if you want to talk Rock & Roll, it never got any better than Little Richard. It was all downhill from there.

“James Brown's incredible backing band featuring the brilliant Maceo Parker and so on .....“

That band has a name, you know. It’s called Funkadelic.


anonanonon said, “Otaku, you expect to go to court and tell the judge he's been paid to rule against you? That's how you're going to win? You are a danger to the cause.”

No, I expect you to walk into court with so much controversy and boiling hatred for the RIAA behind you that the judge will know he’ll be lynched if he rules in the RIAA’s favor. That’s your only hope of winning in a corrupt atmosphere like this.

When people are out in the streets smashing RIAA CD’s with baseball bats, then you’ll have a chance. Otherwise, you’re just wasting everybody’s time by trying to play it straight when you know your opposition doesn’t have to.

“Please, don't put me in a position of defending these RIAA bosses. I am not on their side. I think they are overly greedy (not a crime) and have colluded to make more profit (mostly a crime). I just don't hold any absurdist view of them as comic book villains who glory in creating evil. “

We’re not talking comic books here. We’re talking “1984” and “Wag The Dog.” Nothing is ever going to get better until people like you take your heads out of the sand and realize that you’re living in the 21st century. This is a world where science fiction becomes reality everyday, and if you think the villains of this world are turning a blind eye to all the new possibilities you are in for one very rude awakening two or three years down the pike.

It’s right out in the open where anyone with a computer can see it. People are screaming at you about the new dangers right and left, and you’re just blissfully ignoring them, because you’re small imagination can’t grasp the gravity of the situation.

Yes, between the RIAA, WTO, surveillance cameras on every street corner, carefully controlled news casts, mind numbing dribble and propaganda pouring out of every speaker, being sent to war under false pretences by a president who finagled his way into office without being properly elected and is now making laws and removing regulations that will poison our environment . . . Yeah, it reads like a bad science fiction novel. You live in a bad science fiction novel. And you don’t think you’re up against bad science fiction novel villains?

Mark my words, if you don’t get a grip on the new reality by 2010 you’re going to be living under a world empire in which the RIAA will be a controlling force, next to other controlling forces that are even more evil than the RIAA. This is what you’re making possible with your damned blind indifference.

Otaku, do you think Castro trained sharks to attack US swimmers too?
You're really so overboard that I think you've lost all touch with reality.

"Otaku, do you think Castro trained sharks to attack US swimmers too?"

No, but I wouldn't be surprised if the RIAA trained you. You certainly aren't down with this movement.

Let’s see, trying to get rid of one of the RIAA’s outspoken detractors who encourages pushing a stronger public awareness campaign and the focusing of public anger. That certainly does seem to work in the RIAA’s favor. Encouraging the people to think the RIAA are just normal business people who ran amuck and just need another slap on the wrist. That works in the RIAA’s favor, too. Gee, I wonder if two plus two adds up to an RIAA troll.

Regardless, even if you’re not a troll, you’re pathetic, and it’s your ideas that will cause the failure of this movement.

‘Nuff said. Anonanonon, you are the weakest link. Goodbye.

"That band has a name, you know. It’s called Funkadelic."

Don't think you are going to school me on the funk, my brother. Funkadelic was not James Brown's band. LOL Parliament/Funkadelic were George Clinton's bands. Dude, you need to hear the album "Mothership Connection" by Parliament immediately! You can thank me later. : ) That goes for all of you white boys. Bootsy Collins did play with JB and P/F though. See allmusic.com for more info.

From Wikipedia

“William "Bootsy" Collins, with his brother, Catfish Collins, and Kash Waddy and Philippe Wynne, Collins formed a group called The Pacesetters in 1968. Until 1971, the Pacesetters were the backing band for James Brown, and were known in that context as The JB's. Future Parliament member Mallia Franklin.introduced both Collins brothers to George Clinton, and 1972 saw both of the Collins brothers, along with Waddy and Wynne, join Funkadelic.”

Maceo Parker was also a featured player of Parliament-Funkadelic.

Sorry, my copy of Mothership Connection is a bit worn out after 30 years. Kind of odd how you respect 70’s art funk, but not 70’s art rock.

It's me.

Me too

Otaku said "...I expect you to walk into court with so much controversy and boiling hatred for the RIAA behind you that the judge will know he’ll be lynched if he rules in the RIAA’s favor. That’s your only hope of winning in a corrupt atmosphere like this."
No judge will ever fear lynching over a copyright decision. To the American Public, coptright infringement isn't even a major issue.
So Otaku is a de facto loser, who hasn't a hope of winning, according to his own words.
His wild and brain-dead ranting without regard to reality, like talk of lynching, will only turn judges, politicians and public opinion against us.
Copyright reform, if it ever comes, will come from reasonable people with reasonable arguments (which includes the prosecutors enforcing price fixing laws and suing for PC sabotage, etc). The lunatic fringe will only slow down any improvement.
Otaku, I think YOU would be the kind to send someone with C4 strapped around his middle charging into Orin Hatch's office.

"I hate to tell you, but a lot of people who know more about rock and roll than you believe that this is the crap that killed rock music. Long winded, overblown, pseudo-classical garbage! Rock and roll is a 3 minute blast from the neighbor kid in the garage who can barely play a few chords. It is "Louie Louie". It is "Psychotic Reaction". Not MIKE FRIGGIN' OLDFIELD. Screw that crap!"

Actually, that was what first began poisoning music. RIAA backed producers and music reviewers railing against artists because they were too sophisticated to be considered Rock & Roll. As if rock artists of classical quality ever stopped bands like Aerosmith from hitting it big with basic blues rock. (Or was blues even too sophisticated for those f***tards.)

That’s a perfect example of what I’m talking about - the media telling young people to ignore art in music and stick to basics, as if it was actually a bad thing to have a classical education so you could appreciate music for serious listening, rather than just for dancing or head banging.

Well, if the cretins who talked that way back then wanted rock to be completely devoid of art, they certainly got their wish. They ought to be dancing for joy every time they turn on VH1.

Tnx All for the music lists. I'll be checking them out.

"C4 strapped around his middle charging into Orin Hatch's office. "

Sweet dreams are made of this.

Otaku said, "Yes, between the RIAA, WTO, surveillance cameras on every street corner, carefully controlled news casts, mind numbing dribble and propaganda pouring out of every speaker, being sent to war under false pretences by a president who finagled his way into office without being properly elected and is now making laws and removing regulations that will poison our environment . . . Yeah, it reads like a bad science fiction novel. You live in a bad science fiction novel. And you don’t think you’re up against bad science fiction novel villains?"

If Al Gore or John Kerry had won either time...what would have happened on and after 9/11?...what about when there were chemical weapons in Iraq and they were harboring the same people that were responsible for innocent peoples deaths all around the world? I'll tell you...America would have gone on oblivious to the global community, a doormat for the rest of the world, including terrorists, to walk on. George Bush did the right thing by going into Afganistan and Iraq. Just like I feel we should attack and oust the dictators of Cuba and North Korea next...when the rest of the world wants all Americans dead, do we really want a pushover asshole in office? Didn't think so...I could sit here and preach all day that the war was for the common good...but that would be futile since I already this is going to get a bad reaction all over...I will just continue to say that bad spin and propaganda comes from all sides...think about it...there has been controversy and scandal with EVERY position of power in our society becuase as a society we are based on a party system...we align ourself to a party and try to get some moron that knows shit into a political office...and the losing side points out every single little thing that they do...including nearly choking to death on a pretzel...and they capitalize on the bad things...such as not necesarily proving that Iraq was a direct immediate threat to the US and no chemical weapons were found...but what about the freedom of the Iraqi citizens?...Saddam Hussein (i cant spell) was attempting ethnic cleansing in the northern provinces of Iraq by eliminating the Kurds...why, I'm not really sure...but when a facist dictator attacks several other countries in a futile attempt to gain power in the world, withstands one US lead invasion, and goes on to another 10 years or so in power before he is finally ousted by a second US lead invasion...all I'm saying is, better to have balls than to be a pushover....and the elections....good lord...he won fair and square...besides...Al Gore didn't really have a chance to win...

(please take note that if anything I am a democrat...though I think of myself as non-partisan)

o yea....i dont wanna hear abunch of crap about this...

to answer from earlier, Dreddsnik said, "I still think this is a myth.
It only seems that way because the distribution channels are so locked down that we ONLY GET TO HEAR WHAT THE MAJORS WANT TO SELL.

Shitty or not, here it comes.

In an issue of "Mad" magazine I read as
a kid I remember a quote from a "Korporate" character in one of their pieces. Ths suit was a book publisher, but the mindset is EXACTLY how all major media is run now ......

" We're only interested in new stuff that's almost exactly like what they're reading now. We KNOW they'll buy that. "

The majority of music lovers simply are not aware of how much is out there that has nothing to do with the labels, simply because the labels don't allow the competition on the "playground".

I can't blame the sheeple for not wanting what they are not allowed to know exists.

Let's show 'em the way."

ive tried this with some of my friends at school...they still couldnt see that it was good music...they are so convinced that what they are force-fed every day is the best thing out there...and the RIAA loves it...their eyes are not closed...they're blind...blind to all that is not in this "maintstream" of media...and as the say in the medical world...there is no real cure for blindness...and ive been thinking...maybe the best way to topple this giant beast that is the RIAA is not from the outside...but from within...what we need is several major musicians to speak out against them...not just 1 or 2...but several...from every label...Korn tried with "Yall wanna single" but it was a futile attempt...if their major rock names all go against them....then what happens to the beast?....it either dies of cancer...or is tamed to what we want, and we become the handlers of the animal

"If Al Gore or John Kerry had won either time...what would have happened on and after 9/11?"

There would not have been a 9/11. It's quite clear to me that Bush knew it was going to happen and let it happen, if he wasn't in on the planning of it. Watch "Wag The Dog" sometime, and you'll see how it all works. They wanted to take America's mind off of a stolen election. So they knocked down a building and started a war.

“what about when there were chemical weapons in Iraq”

I can’t believe you’re still asking that. There were no friggin weapons of mass destruction. He made it up. And because of that little fib a couple thousand Americans are dead. More than died in 9/11. Give me a break. What does it take to make you people wake up? Here, have some fun reading. http://www.voxfux.com/archives/00000092.htm

“when the rest of the world wants all Americans dead, do we really want a pushover asshole in office?”

Have you ever once stop to wonder why the rest of the world hates us?

“ but what about the freedom of the Iraqi citizens?”

What about it? We don’t exactly have freedom hear in America right now. Does some other country have the right to bust in hear and start throwing bombs right and left to free us from our Bush era corporate tyranny? No they don’t. That’s our problem to fix. And we wouldn’t have given a darn about their problems if it wasn’t for the oil.

And we didn’t liberate the Iraqi citizens. WE KILLED THEM. Didn’t you see the footage of the bombs flying everywhere? Do you think they were just magically not killing civilians by the hundreds, if not thousands? Good God, how can any idiot buy this dribble about neat clean precision wars that don’t kill civilians?

You know what? You need to hear this from somebody who rants better than me. Stick this in your ear if your over 18. http://www.ranting-gryphon.com/Rants/2rant-iraq.mp3

“and the elections....good lord...he won fair and square...besides...Al Gore didn't really have a chance to win…”

Excuse me. What state were the votes in dispute? Who was Governor of that state? No, that’s not suspicious at all, is it? Does the word “Blind” hold any meaning for you? Good, because that’s what the rest of us who are no longer supporting this crap have stopped being. I suggest you wake up and join us before it’s too late, if it’s not already.

“o yea....i dont wanna hear abunch of crap about this... “

You’re the one who threw the crap. I’m just hosing off the mess.

Do yourself a favor and think about this...all media and news...ALL OF IT...is in some way propaganda...including your little voxfux article, including EVERY SINGLE news cast and news paper in this country...what do you think journalism is?...think about it...the same type of thing as your voxfux article, was broadcast from japanese radio stations to american warships in the pacific during world war 2..."Turn back yankees, go back to your wives and girlfriends before you die a horrible death at our hands"...some of it does inform, but it is mainly meant to persuade someone...i would know...I'M A JOURNALIST...i am and have been completely aware of the factual statements in that article for some time, and still...i support the war...and the little rant mp3 just finished...and i literally cannot find the words to say because i want to slit your throat in your fucking sleep you disrespectful paranoid little 12 year old prick...*sigh of releif* that felt good...

and to continue...

just becuase we havnt found any WOMD (weapons of mass destruction)(keep in mind that doesnt have to be a nuclear weapon...it can be a plutonium rod with a stick of dynamite strapped to it, aka "dirty bomb", or a small vial of sarin or athrax taped to a hand grenade...these alone could be responsible for tens of thousands if not millions of deaths worldwide) doesnt mean they arnt there...hell...we used to think the earth was flat...we used to think that our blood would boil if we went past the tropics...we used to think that we were the center of the universe...we used to think that pluto didnt exist!...and you sit here and tell me...that iraq definitely does not have WOMD...how do you know for sure?...as the mp3 said "Iraq has hundreds of miles of fucking sand!" how very true...and how very easily a rich cowardly dictator can dig a whole IN that desert and hide WOMD...and if Hussein wasnt doing anything wrong...then why, before any US soldiers even put one little toe on Iraq soil...or as you say sand...he was launching fucking missles and civilian centers and troop bases in fucking kuwait?

at first i shared your opinion...back in 2003 that is...i also thot that in 2001 that bush was the cause of 9/11...but im not in any way saying that i like bush as a person...i think every politician or any person that runs for office is a slimey piece of scum...but considering this is america...we get to pick which piece of scum we want in office...how great (note the sarcasm)...but in iraq...they dont...they have been forced to live in fear of saddam for over 15 years...and what happened the day he was ousted from power...what happened when he was captured hiding in a fucking hole in the desert?...the people of iraq rejoiced becuase they were finally in fact free...you say were not free here...go to north korea, go to iran, go to fucking cuba, and try to use your freedom of speech, or any of the other freedoms granted to us by this country...america is the greatest, most powerful, all be it most corrupt, nation on earth...also one of the few that allows its citizens to be free...there may be 191 states in the United Nations...but how many are free?...hmm....maybe fifty, if that many...drug lords run amok in south and central america, warlords control africa, terrorist groups run rampant in the middle east, and communist dictators plague asia...

also you seem to be confusing the general iraqi public, to saddams elite group, gun running, drug dealing, extortion, bribing, ethnic cleansing (genocide), prostitution...a small list of offenses that are part of a long list that his elite group has been confirmed of doing...it doesnt take much to fund an army now...especialy with old chinese and soviet war equipment all over the black market...so a simple "pimp" or drug dealer from here in the states could fund a small army...i wonder what a rich dictator could do?...hmmm?

what im trying to say is...stop intentionally listening to propaganda and find some cold hard facts to base an arguement on

i really should proofread my posts...shouldnt i?...i typed that horribly...

“what im trying to say is...stop intentionally listening to propaganda and find some cold hard facts to base an arguement on “

I’d love to, if Bush and his buddies hadn’t made it impossible to get at the facts. Thus we have only the results to go by. And the results are that the freedom you claim we have here in America is disappearing so fast it’s making our heads spin. So, what are we going to do, just let go of our freedom because we don’t have iron clad proof that we’re being duped. Or are we going to have a sudden attack of good sense and realize that there’s only one source all these bad results could be coming from?

There is, however. enough evidence of bad faith and industrial collusion to convince any sensible person that we should not believe word one that comes out of the Bush administration. While there is infinitely less evidence that Iraq was ever as big a threat to us as they were made out to be.

Here, have another rant from a possibly more respectable source.
http://www.willthomas.net/911/Bush/Congress_Military_Draft.htm

“as the mp3 said "Iraq has hundreds of miles of fucking sand!" how very true...and how very easily a rich cowardly dictator can dig a whole IN that desert and hide WOMD... “

So, maybe, there might be weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Maybe, as in 10% of a chance. But this is a reason to declare war and invade? I mean, think about it. How many countries can you point to where we without a doubt know they have weapons of mass destruction? By this logic we should have invaded China and Russia ages ago. Heck, they should have invaded us, because everybody knows we’ve got them, and nobody in the international community trusts us anymore, because they get freer access to the truth about what we’re doing.

Is this going to be our policy from now on? Just invade anyone that we think MIGHT be a threat to us, when we have no conclusive evidence to prove such allegations? And how is this different from the rationale that kicked off any historical attempt at world conquest and domination?

"I’d love to, if Bush and his buddies hadn’t made it impossible to get at the facts."...as i said...all politicians are liars that only serve the people that fund their campaingns...

"So, maybe, there might be weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Maybe, as in 10% of a chance."

its enough...when its a dictator that harbors terrorists and has somehow lives on thru an invasion...not to mention one that has tried to commit genocide in his own country against his own people

"Is this going to be our policy from now on? Just invade anyone that we think MIGHT be a threat to us, when we have no conclusive evidence to prove such allegations? And how is this different from the rationale that kicked off any historical attempt at world conquest and domination?"

lets take a look back at attempts at world conquest...worth mentioning anyway

Egypt
Rome
Alexander
Hitler & The Third Reich

the first 3 are kinda the same...an emporor wanting more land, more power, more subjects to rule over...but then again...everyone who has power, wants more, and fears losing power the most...moving on....Hitler was a psycho anyway...but his reasons, other than hating people of the jewish faith, even tho he was half jewish, were the same...he wanted more power...and he tried to accomplish that thru conquering other countries...violating several treaties in the process by even having an army...

but anyway...to get back to my point...it was the right thing to do...these are human beings we are talking about...dont they deserve the right to live free of fear of a facist pig?

"but anyway...to get back to my point...it was the right thing to do...these are human beings we are talking about...dont they deserve the right to live free of fear of a facist pig?"

Not unless they’re willing to get up and do something about it themselves. I mean, we live under a fascist pig. Whose coming to liberate us? And even if somebody did think it worth their time to rescue us from Bush. Wouldn’t we say “This is our problem to be fixed in our own way. Mind your own business. We don’t want that kind of help from outside.”

As it is, the people of Iraq have just traded one fascist pig for the pawn of another fascist pig. A fascist pig who thinks nothing of bombing TV stations to get rid of people who say things he doesn’t like. A fascist pig who condones the torture of prisoners. A fascist pig who in the end will pull out when he’s done plundering and leave the Iraqi people to struggle for life in the devastation we’ve left.

And you know what? After that they’re going to hate us more than ever. And you had just better pray that there aren’t any weapons of mass destruction hidden out there in the sand. Or that no other nation takes pity on them and gives them some. Or that nobody teaches them how to use the Sony rootkit hiding on government computers to launch our own missiles against us.

And this is a good thing? This makes one lick of sense? Who do you think you’re kidding, besides yourself?

Wake up and smell the coffee. We’ve stepped over the line. We’ve broken the rules of international conflict. We invaded without justifiable cause. We are no longer the good guys in the eyes of the world. Things can only go downhill from here.

Everything that was accomplished towards world peace and democracy in the 20th century is being thrown in the toilet by your wonderful corporate dictator Bush. 100 years of progress towards peace paid for with the blood of your ancestors just thrown out the window. Good God, do you really want to live the worst wars of the 20th century over again, with us on the negative side?

Don’t you understand? If you’ve forgotten the lessons your fore fathers died to teach you, we won’t survive long enough for you to learn them first hand. We can’t be that stupid again. For God’s sake take off the rose colored glasses before it’s too late.

well...i share your hatred of bush...but ya know...its kinda funny...we always blame the president for problems...did you know that the president is a pawn himself?...controlled by OPEC and the oil industries, his political party, other comercial entities that paid his bills...hell maybe even the RIAA...were so quick to blame the president...whatever...im not disputing the fact that hes an ignorant ass texan...heh...and im from texas...lol...

but were in Iraq now and just think about what would happen if we pulled out now?...or even in 6 months...take a look at Vietnam...we tried to help a country that was being attacked...after 7 out of 10 service men were killed or injured in action we made a hasty retreat cause we couldnt take it...and look at vietnam...complete chaos...its people are worse of now than they were...and why?....because we didnt finish the job that we went in to do

You just had to compare it to Vietnam, didn’t you? That’s the big thing nobody even wants to go near - the fact that we could be so stupid as to do something like that again.

But as long as we’re reminiscing about the good old days of Vietnam, I’d like you to remember how long that pointless war went on, and how much it cost us in wasted American lives.

I’d also like to remind you that nobody gave a frig about the poor Vietnamese. We burned their villages, herded them into trenches and opened up machine guns on them. All we cared about was our foolish media generated fear of communism. Just like how now we only care about are foolish media generated fear of terrorism.

America still hasn’t recovered from Vietnam. Our soldiers are still suffering and dying from that war, because we didn’t even care about our soldiers enough to protect them from dangerous chemicals like agent orange, nor did we give them proper care and concern when they came home to help them readjust. Kind of like how we sent our soldiers to Iraq with out any protective clothing, not even as much as is available to our police officers at home. Halliburton can charge the government $45 for a case of Coke to send to Iraq, but some how there’s not enough money for flak jackets or bulletproof vests.

God, this is sad. Somebody actually getting nostalgic for Vietnam and wishing thousands more Americans had been sent to their deaths for a pointless cause. How old are you, by the way? Did you actually live through those times as I did? Do you know what it is like to live in an America where a young man’s greatest fear is not Communism, nuclear war, or terrorists, but the fear that his own government will take his life away from him without his consent, or even his understanding of why they would do such a thing.

Have you forgotten so quickly how, in that media generated madness, police were ordered to open fire on unarmed American college students? But then, why should you care? You are someone who talks about slitting the throats of 12 year olds. What do you care for the lives of the generation about to inherit this mess?

Apparently we did not learn our lesson. We must go through it all over again. I hope you enjoy the make up course. But try to learn it well this time. In fact, why don’t you enlist so you can have a front row seat for this wonderful thing we’re doing for the Iraqi people.

Sorry, I checked your online profiles. I had no idea I was talking to someone so young. Of course you don't remember those years. You weren't even born yet, and apparently you have no idea what’s about to happen to you. I feel sorry for you. And please don’t take my sarcasm about enlisting literally. That’s like saying I want you to die, which I don’t.