http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-piracy29apr29,0,3250364.story?coll=la-home-business
Students Do Not Share Gonzales' View on Piracy
Attorney general says downloading bootlegs is illegal, but many at seminar are unfazed.
By Lorenza Muñoz and Jon Healey
Times Staff Writers

April 29, 2005

In his first trip to California as the nation's attorney general, Alberto R. Gonzales told a group of high school students to just say no to online piracy.

But, for many of the students, the response was to just say "why not?"

During a daylong UCLA seminar featuring Gonzales, students peppered speakers with tough questions about the real effect of piracy. Some even suggested that government should focus more on tackling poverty and improving education than on jailing kids who download movies, music and software.

"Isn't the government using morality as a means for studios to make millions of dollars?" asked 18-year-old senior Kate Schwartz of Santa Monica's New Roads High School.

Unfazed by the students' skepticism, Gonzales said this was only the beginning of an intensive educational outreach effort. He wanted to let the students know that intellectual property theft was illegal, carried consequences and could permanently stain their records.

"Sitting through a one-hour, two-hour session may not be enough…. It takes awhile to educate people," he told reporters later. "And, unfortunately for some people, it will take an example by this department prosecuting people."

Still, Thursday's event proved to be a reality check for Gonzales and Hollywood in how hard it will be to discourage bootlegging by today's tech-savvy kids.

Eamon Cannon, an 18-year-old senior at New Roads, said talking to students as if they were criminals was unlikely to change downloading habits. The son of film and TV actress Robin Bartlett, who has appeared in such shows as "Mad About You," Cannon said he downloaded hip-hop songs from file-sharing networks and didn't plan to stop anytime soon.

"No one's going to relate to it," he said of Gonzales' stern message. "I don't feel I'm doing something wrong."

The seminar, sponsored by Court TV and the Motion Picture Assn. of America, also featured Oscar-nominated actor James Cromwell and stuntman Kurt D. Lott pleading with the students not to download movies and music because it hurts artists financially. They told students that piracy cut into the Screen Actors Guild's health insurance and pension plans. Cromwell, who was in such films as "Babe" and the HBO show "Six Feet Under," is SAG's secretary-treasurer.

Cromwell noted that only a tiny fraction of actors make even $50,000 a year from their craft. Although the system for distributing money in the film industry may be broken, Cromwell said, it does not justify copying movies for free. "There's a downside to piracy, and that is, ultimately, it screws people over," he said.

But some students were not impressed.

Angel Aparicio, 18, a senior at Belmont High School, said his uncle had to take a second job because piracy slowed production at the DVD plant where he works.

"What stops actors and stuntmen from just getting another job like a normal citizen?" he asked.

Others questioned whether the punishment for pirating movies — as many as three years in federal prison for a first offender with no commercial motive — fit the crime.

Started under Gonzales' predecessor, John Ashcroft, the "Activate Your Mind: Protect Your Ideas" seminar held at UCLA is the educational component of a broader Justice Department initiative to combat piracy. That initiative includes assigning more prosecutors to copyright cases and increasing international cooperation by law enforcement to nab pirates.

Gonzales also met privately with studio representatives and let them know he expects them to do all they can to educate kids on copyright issues and to stem piracy.

"This is not a problem that can be solved solely by the government, by the Department of Justice," he told reporters. "There are civil remedies, civil tools that are available to the industry."

Court TV — a joint venture of Time Warner Inc. and Liberty Media Corp. — offered to work with the department on the educational component of the program. Thursday's event followed another session held in Washington in October with Ashcroft. About 120 students were selected from Belmont High School in Los Angeles, City Honors High School in Inglewood, Mira Costa High School in Manhattan Beach and New Roads.

Outside Bradley International Hall, students milling around the UCLA campus were equally unconvinced by anti-piracy arguments.

Bobby Brathwaite, a 26-year-old junior, said downloading on campus was pervasive and would continue well into the future.

"It's kind of the new business model and it's here to stay," he said, noting that he has about 200 song files on his computer. "Record companies are using the courts and law enforcement to try and protect their profit margins…. When I buy a CD I feel like I'm paying for corporate lawyers and corporate headquarters and, no offense, but I don't want to do that. And I don't have to."

But 21-year-old Marcy Rodriguez and her friend Sonja Fritz said they did not like to download — mainly because they didn't want viruses infecting their computers. Even still, they often receive copied CDs as gifts and usually hear homemade mixes at parties.

Senior Ashley Bonner said everyone she knew had downloaded music or movies at least once. She said most of her friends and acquaintances didn't see any risk with illegally copying music or movies.

"I don't think students think anything can happen," she said as she fiddled with her iPod. "I don't think the word is getting out there."

"He wanted to let the students know that intellectual property theft was illegal, carried consequences and could permanently stain their records."

oh my god! this is going on your permanent record!!!!!!!

"Sitting through a one-hour, two-hour session may not be enough…. It takes awhile to educate people," he told reporters later. "And, unfortunately for some people, it will take an example by this department prosecuting people."

I've heard this same exact line from people who were trying to convert me to their religion.

come to think of it, this sounds amazing like..

"what we have here is failure to communicate."

Cromwell noted that only a tiny fraction of actors make even $50,000 a year from their craft.

and writers make even less. but that's not because of filesharing. they weren't making squat before the internet.

A tiny fraction of PEOPLE only make more than $50,000. In the US. Around the world its worse.

You know whats wrong with actors? ITS ALL AN ACT!

I hope to demonstrate through ridicule that the top dogs at the MPAA, RIAA and DOJ have no understanding of computers. Yet the entertainment cartel wants to partner with the FBI to dismantle the internet.

Even as goldenpi commneted some three years ago, it's hopeless from the gitgo when students are expert-level and merely laugh at the Captain Kangaroo bumbling clowns brought into the classroom to lecture them.

It is increasingly obvious that Cary Sherman and Fritz Attaway use Gonzales, Dan Glickman, and Mitch Bainwol like finger puppets.

At the Ptariot Act hearings last week, Gonzales deflected a tough question on network security by saying, "I am no expert on computers." And the Senators smiled in sympathy.

Ted Olsen said the same thing in his Grokster morning chat with Fred on CNN. "I had to have my grand children show me how to use iTunes."

These guys aren't even embarrassed. Yet everyone else is laughing at them in courtrooms and Congressional heraings.

Is it too much to ask to have people in Washington that are educated? In our immediate future, we're going to have our butts kicked by China and India. Why should our economy and communications network be systematically dismantled by surveillance freaks?

gotta bring the house down somehow eh

Gonzalez seems to think the kids don't understand and need to be educated--what's laughable is that the kids do understand. They just don't agree. Smart kids.

It would be a very good idea for some of these suits to go to college campuses and high schools around the country and actually spend some time listening to the other side of the story. All they ever hear is Glickman and Sherman whining about how much money they lose. They should listen a whole lot more to the people--and a whole lot less to the corporations. If I had much faith left in voting, I would remind these old guys who gets to vote in the next election. But not, of course, if they're all in jail for 3 years. Nazis. (Sorry)

"He wanted to let the students know that intellectual property theft was illegal"

Unless, of course, you're a record label, in which case it is legal and endorsed by the Library of Congress.

You folks are right on target again, as usual!
(i.e., this is another impactful thread)

I cant comment too much on movie downloading. Im a musician and its really only that aspect of the business I totally understand. File sharing is great for music. For movies, I have no idea if they are genuinely hurt by file sharing or not. My gut instinct tells me they arent though for two reasons. One is that movies and DVD sales still make a TON of money so its hard to believe there has really been a negative impact. Secondly bootleged movies are usually really crappy in quality, and are a poor subsititute for the real thing.

"Some (students) even suggested that government should focus more on tackling poverty and improving education than on jailing kids who download movies, music and software."

"Gonzales said,'Sitting through a one-hour, two-hour session may not be enough…. It takes awhile to educate people,' he told reporters later."

Both of these statements indicate that Gonzales is in over his head. The institution of copyright may have been a simple process that worked beautifully for all concerned for two hundred years. Until now. The reasons for confusion are due to the unquestioned and unchecked expansion of corporate profits at the expense of the consumer and the author.

Copyright law is now as complicated and ridiculed as the tax code.

No teacher could hope to master it to the extent of translating copyright code for kids, nor trust that she is not giving illegal advice.

Even the nation's top attorney is confused.

I suggest that Gonzales might reflect that has better things to do with his time. I suggest that conservative strategists re-think the expansion of federal police and surveillance powers that arguably were NEVER considered by the Founding Fathers.

Creating NEW CRIMES and NEW LAWSUITS. This may seem like a beautiful thing ("job security")for the thousands of so-called eager young Intellectual Property lawyers being churned out in diploma mills – but conservatives and business apologists might consider the idea of clogging the courts with victimless crimes and nuisance lawsuits...

What's good for the sauce is good for the gander. Giant corporations will be brought to a standstill while defending thousands of nuisance patent infringement claims.

Bear in mind the original intentions of the immigrants who came to America for a chance to start over with a free and just system. The earliest efforts to create a copyright and/or patent system were met with terrific skepticism. And righfully so.

Asking for a monopoly on manufacturing a good or providing service was only too familiar to those burgeoning capitalists who recalled the indignities of the King's monopolies. And the worldwide corruption of the East India Company cast a pall on corporations. The earliest Assembly leaders and Judges of Jefferson's era were terrically skeptical of a claim to originality.

Compare that to Gonazles' attitude, who is unquestioning of what Big Business tells him to think and say. Clearly pro-business advocates believe that in the case of property rights,"more is better."

"What stops actors and stuntmen from just getting another job like a normal citizen?"

I love this line. Here in the northwest when overzelous government officials and envrionmentalists killed the timber and fishing industries rather than working on a solution, the thousands of people displaced were told to go find another job. In my home state of Michigan when the auto industry had massive layoffs they were told the same thing. Maybe that sould be a mantra for the entertainment industry.

They're not loosing their jobs because of file sharing and anyone who's researched it knows that. Even the industry.

"Sitting through a one-hour, two-hour session may not be enough…. It takes awhile to educate people,"

I just got done reading George Orwells 1984 a couple months ago. Their method of education sounds very simular.

"I just got done reading George Orwells 1984 a couple months ago. Their method of education sounds very simular."

Of course. It is their goal to brainwash America's youths into blindly following whatever the government and corporations say, like in socialism. We must all teach the younger Americans of this age what the truth is and to make sure they teach their children, and their children teach their children, so that the government and the big corporations can't maintain control over the people. I laugh whenever someone refers to us as a 'republic' simply because if it were Microsoft or Time Warner's choice, they'd be Kings and we'd be the peasants. Take the example of Dong Zhuo in Romance of the Three Kingdoms: He was a brutal and tyrannical ruler who sided himself with the most powerful man in China, Lu Bu. A coalition of the heroes of the Chinese world, Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Gongsun Zan, Cao Cao, Sun Jian and Liu Bei, formed together to topple the tyranny. It's time for the Boycott-RIAA Coalition to topple the Tyrants and their 'Lu Bu' government.

They are our only hope.

"Here in the northwest when overzelous government officials and envrionmentalists killed the timber and fishing industries rather than working on a solution, the thousands of people displaced were told to go find another job. In my home state of Michigan when the auto industry had massive layoffs they were told the same thing."

This wouldn't be such a bad thing if our economy wasn't so crappy that there weren't any other jobs to find. I knew if Bush got elected my company would be doomed fail because of his policies. It's looking its getting closer and closer everyday. Yet, Exxon (a company I'm sure Bush has ties with) posted RECORD earnings during the first quarter of this year. RECORD EARNINGS. While the rest of us slave our asses off payiing their higher gas prices. We need a national drive off day at Exxon gas stations. They can afford it.

"Attorney general says downloading bootlegs is illegal..."

Are we again trying to change definitations in the middle of the stream? First there are no movie bootlegs I am aware of. Bootlegs are usually recordings of a concert or live preformance and are typically not sold. They are most often made by the sound man and it isn't a studio effort. In otherwords, other than ClearChannel whom does record the concerts and then sells them, the majors haven't been able to sue for bootlegs as they don't own the recording masters made through bootleg with rare exceptions.

As far as this business with the secondary income from support people in the music industry they sort of took the cake with the "works for hire" meaning that if you do something for a recording, be it a back up musican, a vocalist backing, even the artist themselves that make the original recording it seems the majors what it all. By using the "works for hire" passage it means these folks will never see another dime after the recording. That is hardly paying royalties that supposedly the majors are about. You know, the familar cry of "we represent the artist" thing?

We have yet again in the background here that idea of we have product, you good little consumers go consume, you owe us. Despite the fact that many of the offerings that have come through the box office has been either subpar fare or remakes of old classics. I guess the script writers just don't have the caliber of writers anymore or Hollywood fired them in favor of cheaper working artists. The industry shills that have been put out to defend the industry appear to be ill prepared to do so.

One other thought...

"...said his uncle had to take a second job because piracy slowed production at the DVD plant where he works."

I would make the connection that the same places that do dvd pressings also do cd pressings. So how does the idea that the industry wants to sell digital on line music help the pressing plants? In short, the industry itself is what is putting the workers jobs into the outmoded class. There is very little need of the massive pressings that were the ground work of the old model where physical works were how the music was containerized to get it to the customer. With the usual flare, it is all the downloaders fault as much as it was the car drivers fault that buggy whip makers went out of business. Must be nice to have an instant scapegoat to cover the tracks of your mistakes.

Alberto R. Gonzales told a group of high school students to just say no to online piracy.

Because it worked so well to eliminate the nation's drug problems, as well as eradicating teen sex.

'overzelous government officials and environmentalists killed the timber and fishing industries"

ha ha ha. funniest fucking thing I've ever heard. The fishing industry is in the shitter because the fucking fisherman have fished 90% of all of the large fish out of the ocean. That's 90%. Wow, with only 10% left, what the fuck would one think was going to happen to the fishing industry.

The same thing goes for the fucking timber industry. Greedy bankers bought the trees and saddled the timber companies with high interest debt. Then the timber companies increased production to pay the interest beyond the land’s capability to recover. Thus, the timber industry is in the shitter too.

As far as I am concerned, fuck the lumberjacks, the fisherman and the auto workers. It's survival of the fittest and natural selection. Adapt or die. Those aren't my rules, those are the universe's rules.

Whiney bitches.

stick it to the man, whiner

That was used as an example for the entertainment industries rediculous assertions Raoulduke1. your assertion on fishing is only partly true. but I won't go into it here as that hasn't anything to do with the RIAA or MPAA. as far as timber, again only partly true and could've been corrected with rational thought and not with you're approach. you have no idea what you're talking about. Try coming out here to the northwest and stand in the town square and say that and you'll see how quickly you're run out of town.

By the way before this gets out of hand, loggers, fishermen, and all their supporting industry workers are all outdoorsmen. they live, fish, camp and work in the outdoors. it's a way of life for them. not just some weekend outing from the concrete jungle so they can look at pretty trees. they don't want to see the wildlands ravaged any more than the tree huggers. go after the corporations that causes this, not the people who live off of it.

As far as I am concerned, fuck the lumberjacks, the fisherman and the auto workers. It's survival of the fittest and natural selection. Adapt or die. Those aren't my rules, those are the universe's rules.


Since the entertainment industry is controled by a corporate conglomorate as is (by your assertion) the timber and fishing industry, we can therefore conclude that this rational, well thought out statement of yours can also apply to the independent musicians as well?

Gonzales' "education" to students across the nation are as timely and effective as those drug scare movies I saw in high school health class back in the '60's

maybe climate change is affecting the fishing industry

"As far as I am concerned, fuck the lumberjacks"

That's quotebook material. I'm going to say that to someone later and see what they do.

"It's survival of the fittest and natural selection"

Actually those are the same thing.

Sherm I know a few people you can say that too and see what happens. LOL

It's amazing how when you try to draw a comparison to the entertainment industry, this sort of thing happens.

Sherm will be in the papers tomorrow if he says that to the wrong person. And it won't be pretty, either!

let's see

way back in roman times it was salt merchants

then it was fur trappers

then it was the guy who made buggy whips

then it was fishermen, lumberjacks, oil workers, farmers

now it's the riaa's turn

I'm beginning to see a pattern here

Alberto R. Gonzales told a group of high school students to just say no to online piracy.

(Because it worked so well to eliminate the nation's drug problems, as well as eradicating teen sex. -- gdZiemann)

"He wanted to let the students know that intellectual property theft was illegal."

(Unless, of course, you're a record label, in which case it is legal and endorsed by the Library of Congress. -- gdZiemann)


Hey, George, super stuff!

Sherm, Comp,

Please explain the irrationality of my position. Can you define rational argument without googling it? Specifically what premises and conclusions do not correlate and are illogical? Or were you just talking shit?

On a side note, survival of the fittest and natural selection are two totally different things. They are of course related but they are clearly different. Natural selection refers to the choice of mates which is a subtopic of the survival of the fittest theory.

As a matter of fact, the fisherman and the lumber jacks have a lot in common with the RIAA debate. However, they do not correlate with the independent musicians but more with the sellouts who sign with the Majors, i.e. Cheryl Crow and her ilk. The Major artists take the side of the RIAA because it suits their short term economic interest despite the fact that it hurts our interests and their long term interests. The fisherman, lumberjacks and miners for that matter who side with large multinational companies who fight any effort to reasonably curtail the wanton and reckless rape of the land are dumb swine and deserve no sympathy. Throughout human history fisherman, hunters etc have fished the last fish and killed the last game. That’s what they do and they have to controlled; by force if necessary.

Answer me this, what the fuck is a lumberjack going to do for a job after all of the trees are gone? Not a god damn thing. So as far as I’m concerned if the whiney bitch North westerners have to lose some jobs in the mean time so that we have the opportunity to responsibly manage our timber resources then go write code for Microshit or something.

As far as me not knowing what I’m talking about, precisely what do you know about my history. As a matter of fact, I have considerable experience in the timber and oil industries and my family was responsible for destroying much of the last 110 foot tall, old growth, loblolly pine stands in this country.

Alberto Gonzales NEEDS to get his nalgas back to Tejas...we have some fields bare of crops that desperately need fertilizer, and with that gigantic load of bovine feces coming from his mouth, maybe it will stimualate crop growth here in the that little old state hanging down from the body of the United States like the utter on a cow!

""Sitting through a one-hour, two-hour session may not be enough…. It takes awhile to educate people,"

I just got done reading George Orwells 1984 a couple months ago. Their method of education sounds very simular. "

COMP..REMEMBER WHEN I USED TO MAKE ALL THE 1984 REFERENCES AND PEOPLE SAID I WAS OVERDOING IT? MAYBE NOW THAT YOU READ IT...YOU SEE WHY I WAS SAYING IT.

~CoDe

with proper forrest management there will always be trees and jobs. that's something many never understood and still don't.

however the irresponsible knee jerk reaction is to shut down everything. Hell the tree huggers live in the cities and have jobs, the government has their taxes, who cares if some country bumkins loose their livelyhood. so long as we in the cities have something pretty to look at on our weekend outings. we'll pay a little more for toilet paper and lumber.

Code I read 1984 when I was in high school. just reread it again at my daughters insistance. I've always agreed with your 1984 comparisons.

"what the fuck is a lumberjack going to do for a job after all of the trees are gone?"

God damn you uneducated jackass. Do you believe everything you hear? In the majority of cases more trees are planted in replacement of those that are lumberjacked to death than were actually there in the first place.

"As far as me not knowing what I’m talking about, precisely what do you know about my history."

Who cares about your history? Am I required to read your autobiography before I know enough about the premise of your argument to be able to tell you that you don't know what you're talking about?

"As a matter of fact, I have considerable experience in the timber and oil industries"

So? I was a waiter, that doesn't mean I know anything about food. A friend of mine has "considerable experience" in construction, but he doesn't know anything about physics. What experience do you have in the timber and oil industries? Does it involve research on forest management? If so, your research sucked.

"my family was responsible for destroying much of the last 110 foot tall, old growth, loblolly pine stands in this country"

Good job. Now there's no more trees left.

You don't have to respond if you don't want to.. I'm mostly just mocking you anyway.