From http://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2676
"Christians at fault for earthquake, tsunami

Apparently the Christians have blasphemed Allah because "... they ascribe a son to the Most Gracious." A poster on the Al-Maghrib.org forum called Abu MishMish presents a long list of the worst recorded natural disasters starting with the volcanic explosion at Tambora in 1883. He notes that most of these disasters occur in December especially around Christmas time. (And, strangely enough hit non-Christian countries such as Indonesia)."
=======SNIP=========
So, can we ascribe the majority of copyright infringement to Christians. I mean, remember how entire monasteries in Europe were set ablaze with the work of many monk's hands copying all kinds of text, copyright infringement at its most illustrious if you ask me (of course, no copyright laws at that time, but when has reason ever stopeed the Copyright Cartel?).

This is getting to the point of absurdity, and that's what happens when religious fervor takes hold to the point of turning government after governement into little theocracies.

Interestingly enough, on the referenced site, they had a poster agreeing with this
Christianogenesis to world disasters...
http://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2676

"Poster Hadeed Indeed agrees:

Assalamu 'Alaikum
That is really interesting - all those dates do revolve around the celebrations of the kuffar.

SubhanAllahi 'amma yasifoon wa 'amma yushrikoon

Maybe, but Allah (SWT) has other ways of doing that with Mercy. It's well known that earthquakes/and sending of Reeyaah (winds) have often been the ways Allah destroys people. Wallahu a'lam

We really need to clear this earth from Kufr, Allahumma asta'aan

Ps. Those other dates that are not bolded... maybe if the disasters were a form of punishment from Allah(SWT), then who knows, maybe the people were involved in so much shirk whch caused their ruin - e.g. from the faiths of buddhism, hinduism and chinese/japanese cults.

A "Kufr" is anyone who doesn't believe in the Muslim religion (or the particular sect of the Muslim religion to which the poster belongs). He doesn't say how he intends to clear the earth of the Kufrs."
-------------------SNIP----------------------
Thus, since I am nominally a Christian, I will go ahead on behalf of all Christians, and take credit/blame for:
1) Filetrading of copyrighted materials (copyrighted by independent musicians)
2) Dry skin and the "heartbreak of psoriasis"
3) Halitosis (bad breath)
4) Hyperhydrosis (sweating too much)
5) The worldwide plague of obesity
6) Bacon
and, the most horrific of all...
7) The Lawrence Welk show (so Christian you could taste the Borscht)

Thanks, we can now go on to downloading/uploading the King James version of the Bible on
"the internets" as our fearless leader calls them/it.

~CW

Bacon?

Joann Castle rocked.

So did the guy that played slide guitar.

And now that we have the most ridiculous story for THE ENTIRE YEAR out of the way, let's remind ourselves that we're here to boycott a music and movie industry that doesn't want to play fair or allow anything that doesn't make them money, ok?

The movie industry plays pretty fair, for a multibillion dollar industry. The RIAA is much worse in nearly every aspect.

"The movie industry plays pretty fair...The RIAA is much worse in nearly every aspect."

Keep in mind that the RIAA is nothing but the lapdog of the majors, doing what the majors don't want done in their name so that the RIAA can be the lightning rod to blame instead of the source that it really comes from. Had the majors to accept the blame for what they instituted instead of the RIAA, their lily white reputations publicly stained far beyond what it is today.

"We really need to clear this earth from Kufr..."

Here again is the intolerance of religion. Each claiming to be the one true religion with the one true god. Problem is that in order to be accepted by this or any religion you must live within that creed. For those that don't some religions aren't acceptable of the live and let live idea. Rather they want to force you into the realms of what they deem acceptable. So much so that it is ok to fly planes into buildings, ok to hold hostages, ok to bomb those that aren't of like mind. Saying that we will fix it and glass over some country isn't the answer anymore than hostile actions "In The Name Of" is. We could do this right back to the stone age and who would benefit? Those within the creed?

This is one of the tunnel visions of religion that man has inflicted upon himself. I am sure the "natural disasters" were most carefully picked to represent the vision wished to be protraited and not for the actual happenings or causes. God did it is a very useful catch all phrase for such.

sure we can blame us christains, we're blamed for everything else.

http://freeinternetpress.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2678
"Westboro Baptist Church Prays for More Swedes to Die
Posted on Saturday, January 08 @ 11:04:57 PST by daisy_miller

daisy miller writes "Saturday, January 8, 2005

Westboro Baptist Church, best known for it's extremist anti-gay movement, is in the news again with their new godhatessweden.com website. The suffering of “filthy, faggot Swedes” in the South East Asia disaster was punishment from God for Sweden’s tolerant attitude toward homosexuality. This is how the influential Christian extremist movement in Kansas has reported Swedes’ suffering in the tsunami disaster.

Now a pastor in the Pentacostalist Church in Sweden who is hailed as a hero on the site has condemned it as appalling.

Åke Green, a pastor in Borgholm on Öland, is currently appealing a ruling by a court in Kalmar, which sentenced him to one month in prison under Swedish hate crimes legislation. Green had been prosecuted for using a number of anti-gay Bible passages in a sermon.

The court’s ruling has made some evangelical Christians view Green as a martyr – and Sweden as a pariah land. The website godhatessweden.com, owned by the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas, intersperses praise for Åke Green with comments on the tsunami such as “we pray for all 20,000 Swedes in the tsunami’s wake to be declared dead.”

The Westboro Baptist Church set up its anti-Sweden site following Green’s conviction last June. The church is well known for its focus on sex, and also owns the site godhatesfags.com. The site calls Sweden “perverted, irreversibly cursed of God and damned."

Speaking to The Local, Green has told of his distress that the website is using his name in this way:

“I think it is appalling that people say things like that,” he said, “it is extremely unpleasant.”

Green said that he has contacted newspapers in the United States to distance himself from the comments on the website. He added that he is surprised that authorities in the United States have not intervened. “This harms Christianity,” he said."

yeah but code didn't own up to stealing the Lindburg baby. I know you did it man... 'fess up

I tried going to godhatesfags.com and
godhatessweden.com and could not find either site.
I think it's because my PeerGuardian and ZoneAlarm software is set to block sites created and run by
gapemouthed retarded assholes who are ANENCEPHALIC!
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/anencephalic
"Pronunciation: an`ensuf'alik


WordNet Dictionary

Definition: [adj] characterized by partial or total absence of a brain "

LOL...nope, not old enough to the Lindberg baby kidnap...
the trial was in 1935, I was born in '52. And, I think
Bruno Richard Hauptmann, was framed for that one.

I tried visiting God's website but it was down. I'm sure however that he'd approve of Codewarrior taking the blame for bacon

Since I'm half Jewish, bacon is like kryptonite to us...so, it only makes sense that the juicy, greasy, flavorful porcine treat which dances so invitingly on plates at hotel morning breakfasts around the world, tempting us to consume this forbidden flesh, would HAVE to be a Christian invention...

LOL>..I just came up with a new idea...Bacon...Brown Kryptonite!

God is love. Not an American, Not a Republican...not even a human. The reason God is beyond all reckoning, and beyond everything, is that it is NOT tied down into being constrained.

I managed to get to the GodHatesFags.com website (the godhatessweden.com is still offline, thank God)...

What a load of putrid manure that place is!

They list the following as their "Love crusades"
(NO, I am NOT making that up...that's what it says)
"Schedules for upcoming pickets
WBC to picket Rincon/University High School in Tucson,Ariz. -- 7 a.m., Jan. 10, 421 N. Arcadia Av.; and, WBC to picket the following apostate, Arminian, pro-gay churches* -- Sun., Jan. 9
WBC to picket New York's corrupt ex-mayor Rudy Giuliani at the Salina Chamber of Commerce Annual Banquet -- January 11, 2005, 6:30 p.m., Bi-Centennial Center, 800 Midway, Salina, Kan.
WBC to picket tsunami survivors of the Swedish fag colony on the Thai island of Phuket - including the fag Paradise Complex and fag Connect Guest House and Coffee Bar in Patong Beach - and the Swedish Embassy in Bangkok - Jan. 16 and 17)"

I'm sorry, but these anal orifices seem to have gotten the wrong copy of the Bible, i.e., the one in which the word "love" was struck through and replaced with the word "hate".

I guess they disregard the part of the bible where Jesus says, "A new commandment I give unto you, that you love your neighbor as yourself"....
maybe they think Jesus is a "fag" for his long hair and loving his fellow man.

This is the picture of "Fred Phelps,Sr."
http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2002/Fred_Phelps_Preaching_8-4-2002.jpg

He's their "leader" and "pastor"...
Here's another pic of old Fred..
http://www.godhatesfags.com/images/2002/Fred_Phelps_10-29-2002.jpg
This one has him with a cowboy hat on...
He bears a striking resemblance to "The Tall Man"
Angus Scrimm, from the Phantasm movies...
the difference is Angus Scrimm is a cool guy....this one is a retarded asshole.

I think that should be "Baconite"

what dear? my turn to do the dishes? what kinda crap is this. I'm the man of this house. I.... oh, alright.

sorry guys, have a good evening

A) Just got back from checking out those sites. For those that can't get to the sites, envision Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Jimmy Swaggert all rolled into one, energized with a maniacal outrage against their chosen foes.

Smoking crack.

B) I see that in past life... you were known as... Bruno...?

C) Bacon predates Christianity. Maybe it was a Hindus, starving to death next to a cow.

A Hindus or several Hindi.

i am new to this great site can i chat?

where are you all?

Arizona

colorado

The Great and Sovereign State of Confusion here...

Welcome anon...chat away

Did you bring bacon?

In response to the Westboro Baptist Church, and for anyone else here who is belligerent concerning the Christian community
http://www.lifeway.com/lwc/article_main_page/0,1703,A%253D150063%2526M%253D50020,00.html

Canadian bacon....now that opens another kettle of fish...why is it called "canadian bacon" on a pizza, but "ham" in a sandwich....
(discuss amongst yourselves)

hmmm, no bacon, no christians, no republicans, no pets, no kids, no fun, no pool, no mtv, no escape....
damn, sounds like lebanon

I have searched the Christian , King James version a hundred times...
and I have found not ONE reference, wherein Jesus instructs us to
"pray for the death of Swedish fags"...but hey, they probably have
a different bible at Westboro...and I bet it is laden heaven with
notations in the margins written in Crayola crayons, with the letter
"N" backward (the way in cartoons a kid has the N backward in LEMONADE
for SALE)...and loads of words spelled incorrectly....and the word "FAGS"
written in all caps with three underline marks....

They undoubtedly are blessed with that "Custom" version of the Holy Sciptures...
or as they may write it...the "HOLEY SKRIPTURES"

It's not Christian to hate your neighbor in my book...nor to pray for the death of those belonging to a certain country.

In MY Bible, Jesus says to pray for those who despitefully use you...not pray for their friggin' death, and PEPE,,,....please don't say you are taking up for these inbreds ....I see their website and can hear that banjo theme of the movie Deliverance playing in the background...wasn't pastor Fred the guy who said "You got some mighty purdy lips boy"...just asking.

BTW Pepe..that link you gave prominently advertises "Liberty University",
that unholy spawn of that piefaced goo-head Jerry Falwell...
'Nuff said about that site!

I'm only belligerent when I've been drinking. or smoking crack cocaine. or attending pro sports events. and ever since that little incident with the phoenix police I have to stay away from the booze. of course I have been thrown out of a couple of churches

typo...Holy Sciptures= Holy Scriptures...
and seriously Pepe...
Westboro gives Christianity a bad name.

Defending these retards is like saying Caucasians are cool, and then using the KKK website to back that claim up...

Christians can be cool...hatred loving groups like these confused morons at Westboro are not..sorry if you think they are cool...bursting the bubble here...but they are meanspirited backward, bigotted, slack jawed idiots....and yes, I mean that in a bad way (you have to know the comic Dom Irerra's "not in a bad way" routine, to get that last reference )http://www.domirrera.com/biographywhite.htm

if I hadn't messed up my computer I could be downloading music right now.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't mean to say I was sticking up for that Westboro outfit...if that is where they are coming from, they are no friends of mine...however, I have not spoken to anyone in that Church...this information is only coming from a web site, and people need to be cautious.

We also can't assume all the people in that Church feel the same way. Personally, if that were my Pastor, and I knew for sure that, that is what he was teaching, I wouldn't be there. I would consider them a cult, with a really lousy name.

I think my main way of thinking here is that so many people at this site don't have too many good things to say about Christianity, as comp pointed out, so why should headlines and stories, such as this one get anyone up in arms?

What is with Jerry Falwell??? I don't even listen to him..is he still on tv? I liked what the site said..it's true.

And Code, you're being judgemental..God's job, not ours!

lol...you're a man after my own heart captdunsel!

BTW...there are some great external hard drives out now that hook up via USB 2.0...cost...about a dollar a gig...

Pepe...I've seen these progeny of married cousins in videos on the streets, dancing around and celebrating when prominent people die of AIDS. Christ would be wailing with a whip if he saw these kinds of people claiming to be working in his name!

Judge not lest ye be judged means, to me, I can judge and be judged. Every time I write something on one of my blogs or sites people judge me in their mind.

I told my mom, who was a minister, as was my dad, in the Assembly of God church, that the bible says "Spare the rod and spoil the child"...and that people have screwed up their interpretation. They think it says, do not spare the rod and do not spoil the child. It doesn't say that...I read it as a dictum that you SHOULD spare the rod, and you SHOULD spoil the child.

The bible never says pray for the death of homosexuals. Show me a verse in the KJV that says that exactly and I shall be quiet about the subject.

as for falwell..the site, in the upper right hand corner, has a color ad for Liberty University, that machine of indoctrination started, and overseen by that piefaced goo-head, old fat Jerry.

as far as the godhatesfags.com website, the registration info is:
WESTBORO BAPTIST CHURCH
P.O. BOX 1886
TOPEKA KANSAS 66601

Now, I don't know if you know your bible that well...but the numbers 666 in that zip code, don't look like a number associated with the REAL Christ...it's the number of the AntiChrist!

By the way, most of North America (Christian nations???) have been giving Christianity a bad name lately....but at least, so far, to the best of my knowledge Jerry Fallwells kids haven't walked into any schools, stores, offices, etc, strapped with dynomite and blown people away.

Code, relax, for the most part you and I are on the same side..of course we don't believe in praying for the death of people, unless they are so sick and we pray for their earthly release. We just lost my husbands dad this Christmas. He was very sick with cancer. In his case, it was a blessing he went quickly.

And yes, I understand the 666 number very well.
Keep watch on the EU!

For the most part, this whole thread has been pretty lame.

. . . including the article at the top.

For the most part, this whole thread has been pretty lame.

I rest my case!

I've known a lot of christians in my life. there are worse people in the world to have for neighbors. those people from that south american drug cult for example..whoa, they were scary. point is if you look you can find bad people anywhere in the world following any number of religions. nobody wants to bring it up given the tsunami tragedy but Thailand has a very prominent child sex industry which caters to tourist pedophiles with money. One of the biggest sex slavery rings runs all the way around the world starting in Russia, going through the phillipines, the middle east, africa and on to europe and the us.

It would be interesting to see how many people here know who Sara Maria Aldrette was. I could go on with this for most of the night but again the point is that you can single out anyone or any group. right now it's just acceptable to harp on christians. I guess it's their turn in the barrell. Next year we'll be hating on those damn druids

.and if you guys want to really get into a heated discussion I dare anyone to go into a sports bar in Denver right now wearing a Colts jersey

Notwithstanding my previous criticism, 'Code was correct in lambasting the the Westboro Baptist Church (at least, its leadership) for being jerks that disgrace the faith.

And I'm in complete agreement with him about how Falwell, Robertson, Swaggart, Bakker, etc., have really given Christianity a bad name.

P.S. Not all topics turn out well. Nobody can bat a thousand. But to put things in proper perspective, it's well-known that CodeWarrior almost always does a commendable job.

"set to block sites created and run by
gapemouthed retarded assholes who are ANENCEPHALIC!"

Boy somebody's had too much caffeine today. You know, if you have to provide dictionary definitions, it sorta ruins the joke. But then anencephalic is one of my favorite words, especially when talking about politicians, entertainers, and journalists. And Michael Moore.

Isn't it amazing when christains are mentioned only a few extremists are held up as justifacation for criticizing the whole christain faith. Lets try this on other groups....

Russia had Stalin, therefore Russia is bad

people of lower incomes have more tendency of commiting crimes, alcoholism, and misuse of the welfare sytem therefore low income people are bad

Native Americans slaughtered innocent pioneer women and children, they're bad...
Oh and Custer slaughtered innocent native american women and children therefore all 19th century military is bad

And lets not forget Martin Luther King, John F. Kennedy, Bill Clinton all adulters therefore nothing good can come from public servents.

since the mafia is made of of mostly Italians guess what that means.....

Oh hell lets just criticize everyone because of a few bad apples.

Until humanity can shake itself of its superstitious bullshit need salve its fear of death with fictitious spooky supernatural beings, we are doomed to spend our brief lives on this planet slaughtering each other over our belief systems. There is no greater proof that we are still a primitve life form, busy here on our little planet dreaming up reasons to hate each other and thinking up ways to murder each other. Ten thousand years of progress has given us gadgets and toys, but we are still the primitive species addicted to satisfying our penises and salving our fears with deities.

My god has a bigger dick than your god.

My god has breasts.

"There is no cause so righteous and holy that you won't find some idiot following it"

I was just reading where I left off last night and you all seem so angry are you?

who said life was going to be easy?

hey irkenpirate, are you still there?

I was just reading where I left off last night and you all seem so angry are you?

anonymous I think most are

anonymous5

Hello new person

...no anger here...just frustration at times...I often liken it (Conversations on Christianity) to standing in front of a firing squad and pleading for my life ... rather pointless ... and as you may have noticed, most folk here feel they have no need of Christian oriented conversation, (it often just all gets shot down in flames by sheer silliness) hence my feeling of last night.

Often enough, one topic around here leads to another, which ulimately leads to various opinions ... I don't mind opinions as long as they come with some form of intelligent conversational reasoning, rather than just slam dunking.

There are some really good Christian folk here by the way...

Other than this, we all have the one thing in common and that is our battle against the evil RIAA empire. Come to think of it, we are all angry with them.

So, be prepared for the weird, wired and wacky, put on your hard hat (and skin) and welcome to the Boycott! ~pepe~

"There is no cause so righteous and holy that you won't find some idiot following it"

well said. that also includes the fight against the RIAA

Welcome to Boycott-RIAA, anonymous5. Always good to see a new member come in and post. While it may look like they are mad, most are stating their opinions, what they believe. I am sure you have heard that it isn't safe to argue politics and religion.

Those two subjects gets peoples passions up. What article starts a thread is not always where the thread will end up. In such manner, many topics are explored. You have some devout christians here and you have some atheists here. The spectrum includes all in between. With such a mix you would expect flames, wars, trollship and all sorts of other happenings.

It is not odd that such aren't happening over the subject. They are saying whats on their minds, no more, no less.

Angry? Hardly. Argumentative? Absolutely.

There are at least two sides to every debate. Sometimes BOTH sides of the argument are ludicrous. If we come here simply to agree with each other on everything, then what's the point?

So pick a point of view and defend it. Often we all learn something in the process.

From religion to politics

Oh man !!! religious people

i wish people would get over religion already.

TheSherminator hardly likely to happen as it's been around for over 2000 years

You're a few thousand years short there, pepe.

Hi, anonymous5, and welcome to the eternal debate! I don't know about the rest of you (well, some of you leave no doubt about your opinion), but the problem I have with Christianity is not the religion itself, but with hypocrites and "false prophets," if you will. I respect people who live their lives doing what they say they believe in, but I can't stand the ones who try to convert everyone else and do so many horrible things "in the name of God."

I'm not angry and bitter, I'm just mean. However when I struggle for a reason to continue on, I go see a man who has never failed to bring me back to reality and force me to be happy.

He sits at the bus stop at the corner of Sheridan and 72nd most days between 3:00 and 3:15 pm and whenever I'm feeling low I drive by about 50 mph and splash him (there's a big pothole there that always fills with water)

.....much cheaper than paxil

...and safer...unless the man gets a gun....

Just a little harsh, methinks. But hey, he's at the bus stop for a reason...

Whenever I feel like I have lowered myself to the level of wormsweat, I just watch Jerry Springer for about 5 minutes and realize that life just isn't so bad after all. I consider that show as proof of evolution, as many of the guests appear to be of a completely different species.

George, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. I caught a glimpse of Springer's show a couple of weeks ago. Pathetic...

it's ok Im pretty sure he's a christian so he'll forgive me

All very well spoken. I just have one quick question. I noticed that various times throughout today and yesterday I was being hacked into by someone at this sit. Please stop it and take your anger problem to a psychiatrist before you end up ruining the United States. Besides don't you have anything better to do? Like getting a real job?
Thanks, it's been real!

Oh, the question is,
which one of you is it?
Want to confess?
Let's chat about it, K??????!!!!!

Oh, the question is,
which one of you is it?
Want to confess?
Let's chat about it, K??????!!!!!

??

it just happened again. Would you like me to report you?
It is against the law you know!

it just happened again. Would you like me to report you?
It is against the law you know!

bubble wrap is cheaper than therapy

what exactly do you mean by "hacked into" ? if you mean someone is hacking into your computer you should probably study up on firewalls and internet security. if you mean that someone is hacking into your user account then you should report that anyway. if you mean the shropshire slasher is stalking you then call anyone but daffy duck

If you are having such attempts, would love to talk to you. Maybe you know something I could learn. anonymous5, I am not the admin of this site but would be curious on your info and alarms. You can contact me through the Dmusic site and a Dmusic note.

BTW, I couldn't hack my way out of a paperbag so it isn't me. However I am concerned with personal security.

lol wet1... right on.

Well, I posted the whole thread to show how silly it is for anyone to blame all the ills of the world on any one group. To allege it is the fault of Christians, or Buddhists, or Taoists or atheists, for things like tsunamis, seems looney. But, in the Bible, we have things like "THE FLOOD" being the result of God being mad at folks. Now, here's my take for what it's worth.

Supposedly, God gave men and women (humans) free will. Part of free will, is the ability to make a choice that goes one way or the other. Now, if one reads the Bible (KJV) we see that apparently, God is very intolerant of some acts or behaviors, and according the bible, killed whole groups of people for behaving in ways God (trying to avoid "He") didn't like, whether it was sodomy or whatever he found objectionable.

But, we also must believe, if the Bible is to be believed as presented, that God knows the future, and thus knows, prior to creating a creature, what it will do.

Hence, he gave Adam and Eve free will to eat of every fruit in the garden, but told them not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. Now...I know, it's getting complex...he knew BEFORE telling them, that Eve would eventually eat of the forbidden fruit.

So, my continuing perplexing problem is, if we believe the Bible as it is written, is creation all an exercise in futility.

If I knew my son, when he was little, would eat all the candy in a jar, and had this knowledge because I knew the future, and I sat him in a room with that jar of candy and told him not to do it..and KNEW his freedom of choice would amount to eating all the candy, what would the point be? I mean, in my cross-dimension reality, he eats the candy, and has already eaten it before I sit him down and command him not to.

The future cannot be knowable, if it is only a branching path with multiple possible outcomes. If God knows "the future", then there is only one outcome, and that is the one that in fact , is predestined. Now, if we take this to its logical conclusion, an omniscient God, knew before the world was created, whether each of us were going to hell or not. So, in terms of this all encompassing knowledge, it's like watching a movie over and over and expecting to end differently one of those times.

And, if there IS such a thing as predestination, then, from that perspective, is there REALLY such a thing as free will after all, or is it merely an illusion?

And, this "free will vs. predetermination" question is not just one for Christians. Buddhists struggle with it too.
http://ramalila.org/BuddhistQuestions/FreeVsPre.html

Here is one man's interpretation of all this
http://www.geocities.com/JoyfullyServing/Essays/freewill.html

And, another site with an essay on free will
http://www.thoughtware.com.au/philosophy/philref/PHILOS.08.html

Certainly, with moving into this topic, I've taken my own thread far afield, but I think that's ok, because, these kinds of discussions just don't seem to go on enough in a lot of places in the world.

We are able, in this virtual meeting area, from all parts of the country, to explore what we think with others, and from this discourse, some of us may learn something, or we may get a different slant on things.

Minds, like parachutes, work best when they are open.

I think tolerance is important now, more than ever.

I certainly don't have the universal franchise on all truth , revealed or otherwise.

I think it's great we still have the ability to discuss things freely on the Net. Goodness knows how long that will continue given the forces at work in the world.

anonymousperson...
Not paranoid are you? Until 9:56 you hadn't said much of anything except "You guys sound angry."

You have expressed no real viewpoint, argued with no one, were actually greeted in a generally cordial manner. Why would anyone bother when there are such opinionated alternatives?

Speaking for myself, if I were inclined to hunt down and harass someone (which I'm not), you'd be like last on the list right now.

Maybe it's an ad or something.

"Minds, like parachutes, work best when they are open."

If you have an open mind, what keeps your brains from falling out?

"call anyone but daffy duck..."

That joke had a three-minute delay.

I sort of agree with you George, without ips, addys or someother method of seeing what it is, there is no telling.

"If you have an open mind, what keeps your brains from falling out?"

It isn't the drop, it's the sudden stop...

Is far easier to look at a log and figure where it came from than spooking at shadows and jumping. Much like you it would be far easier to throw insults than to figure out how to hack. Don't think I could pick up hacking in the next 5 or 10 minutes so it is probably beyond me.

If anonymous5 is doubt of this inability on my part he can submit the ip to the admin and I am sure the admin will verify it isn't the ip I use.

Those essays are profoundly thought-provoking.

If God's ways are beyond our comprehension and logic, then it would not be unfair to delineate the outcome of free will in this assessment:
If a person is saved, it is because of the grace of God.
If a person is lost, it is because of rejecting God's offer of salvation.

(My post was a response to what CodeWarrior had written at 11:41 p.m.)

Diogenes -- Now we're discussing the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism, which has nothing to do with Armenians.

Please find my previously posted analysis of this subject here:
http://www.azoz.com/family/castle/1625/1629London.html

George -- yes, the quandary between Calvinism and Arminianism does come into play.
Here's a link to a Biblical perspective:
http://www.khouse.org/6640/christiandoctrine/BP039.html

Opposing factions (Calvininism vs. Arminianism) position themselves on either side of a fence and delude themselves into thinking there are only two choices in a dispute.
It turns out that part of the truth is found in both doctrinal positions, but neither side has the corner on the whole truth. Following are the most valid exerpts from both sides:

"Man is in absolute bondage to sin and Satan, unable to save himself (by accepting Christ) without the help of God."

"Although God may already know the outcome, it is still up to you to accept Christ."

What is the most relevant part of God's Word on the subject of free will?
"God would have all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
(I Timothy 2:4)


BTW: I read your analysis on your webpage. This is very interesting material. Thanks.

Just so we don't get esoterically carried away-- there are a number of doctrinal issues that can't be completely explained. God has sovereignty, and the Bible says that His ways are "beyond finding out." But human inclination is to labor to define, dissect, and promulgate positions . . . when, really, people just need to read The Word and let God be God.
Or, they can freely choose to ignore God and what His will is.

Code mentioned a central cognitive dissonance to Christianity, that is, a Creator that purposefully empowers man with freewill, then punishes him for exercising it.

In the beginning man created gods. With our larger brains we had the ability to contemplate our mortality, and formulate questions which can not be answered. To a human, an unknown is a bad thing, a potentially dangerous thing, and a stressful thing, so we created our own answers, these took the form of religion and mythology. All questions then had answers; people felt better and less fearful. Over the centuries it became apparent that religion was a powerful tool for controlling people. Warlords, kings, tribal heads, and other leaders integrated religion into rule. Through fear, manipulation, and mind control, societies gained power, usurped lands, and slaughtered billions. With the advent of the printing press, a new tool was born to strengthen the grip; people were handed books, told to believe or leave, or worse, believe or die. People wanted to believe, wanted to obey, most need to think they understand, and they need a leader. Today religious people consider their faith in the backdrop of their short time on this planet, conveniently ignoring the fact that most religion has caused hardship, pain, death, and suffering to billions over the millenia. But if one looks through the veil of the feelgooders and spinproctors, one sees that even today, more people are being slaughtered a la religion than any other reason.

There is nothing wrong with a question that has no answer. When eternity is uncertain life becomes more precious.

Diogenes2

Let God be God....I like that one... I also liked that bit in one of Codes links that said people would rather change God than themselves.. that is an absolute truth.

Here is a site I found that has an interesting way to look at this subject.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~lkolberg/transcripts/C391B.html

Again, we get so caught up in history, (old news) legalism, this-ism, that-ism, we tend to get bogged down and lose what we're seeking in the first place. (new, good news)

How things came to be as they are, is not as important now, as to what is happening in the world today.

God is still calling His people ... the question is, are you hearing Him?

When Christ died on the Cross, EVERYBODY was bought with that price... that was His predestination choice for us. He presented the offer, big time. One can accept that, or throw it away.

Whether He knows which choice you make? I think, is immaterial.

"In the beginning man created gods."

Or, the other possibility is in the beginning, God created man.

The dilemma is one of faith. No one can prove what happened "in the beginning", so we choose to rely on one belief system or another.
You have yours; I have mine.
But we can still tolerate one another, and that's important.

"Whether He knows which choice you make? I think, is immaterial."

And even by His knowing everything, it does not necessarily follow that He chooses to influence everything (such as whether a person is 'destined' to be saved or lost, for example, which has to imply an attribute that's something less than providential).

(Pepe, that last post of mine was not directed to you -- I simply started with what you said and ran with it to make a general indictment against Calvinism).

Geez, Louise.

"Again, we get so caught up in history..."
balanced with
"When Christ died on the Cross"

So, are we supposed to pay attention to history or not? Or just the parts you feel are significant?

"How things came to be as they are, is not as important now, as to what is happening in the world today. "

Religion -- the anti-science.

That's not MY 'take'.

History IS important.

But, talking about 'history' going back to day 1 -- well, then, you know what I posted on 10:21 this morning.
(There is no record, only suppositions or faith.)

Scientific suppositions are entertained where there is no compelling evidence or demonstrable proof - that makes them hypotheses.
Religions are hypotheses too.
In these gray areas, it's all a matter of faith . . . what you choose to believe.
What 'Code and some others of us would like to emphasize is that a person's belief system should be tolerated -- unless they live their lives different from what they profess; then, ShadowMom's valid objection kicks in!

Thats it... now I see it..George, you see Christ as a historical thing... I see Christ as a NOW thing. He lives NOW..not just in the past ...I was referring to religious history... I have a problem relating Christ with old history...hence my comment on the 2000 years of history..I again, was relating to "since Christ" time, not the times since they were chucking virgins into volcanoes to "appease the gods thing"

Sorry , Diogenes2, I knew to what or whom you were referring, to... carry on...

That's cool. Thanks.

out of time - commitments calling - check back this evening

"George, you see Christ as a historical thing... I see Christ as a NOW thing."

Of course you do. The Islamics see Mohammed; the Buddhists see Buddha; the Christians see Christ. Or the Virgin Mary. On a grilled cheese sandwich.

I see dead people.

"I have a problem relating Christ with old history."
2000 years ago hardly qualifies as current events. The Calvinism/Arminianism thing is only 400-500 years ago.

Actually, it is quite easy to see Christ's progress throughout history. It's called war.

from one end of the circle to the other. Still hating on christians while there are plenty of druids still walking around and I see nobody knows who Sara Maria Aldrete was.

sigh

Those who cannot remember are doomed to repeat

visit this site site at your own risk - I don't make any claims or guarantees about the content



http://www.nmrising.com/public/864.htm



This fool tries very hard to twist the basic facts and justify his perversion of a few basic tenets of christianity. This is the same argument I have seen (in varying forms) for most of this thread.
No matter what side you take, no matter how clearly posted the path is, even if the mystical hand of some all powerfull supernatural being comes down from on high and slaps you on the back of the head, there will still be those people who will argue and get pissed and tell you that black is white and day is night and everything that is wrong in the world is because of p2p. (and of course, that tsunamis are cause by some evil empire testing new weapons.)

In this spirit then, I offer anyone who is willing to read it a few simple guidelines that I laid down for my kid so she would know right from wrong.

1. If it summons the police, disaster recovery or fire departments it's probably a bad idea. don't do it.

2. If it involves breaking glass, blood loss or shrunken heads, chances are it won't go over well with the man.

3. If it requires more than an hour of pennance, it may also involve probation, drug screening or a jail term

4. If it's taboo everywhere else, it's not going to be accepted here.

5. If it requires taking your clothes off, you've stayed up too late

6. Always hide human remains in someone else's basement.

7. popularity is overrated- Julius Caesar was elected dictator of Rome, look what it got him.

if you follow these basic rules you should always be able to tell right from wrong, no matter what your religious preferences

...not even with my ten foot pole!



love to ALL you guys and gals!

(I don't give a shit what religion you choose or not to practice/proclaim! I wish you ALL happy things so long as you don't derive the "happy" from the true harm of other living beings.)

...B Goode 2 one another.

"Actually, it is quite easy to see Christ's progress throughout history. It's called war."

Make that the 'progress' of misguided Christians throughout history (as starting religious wars).
It's not what Christ taught or wants.
And, yeah, I agree, there's been way too much war (and two many misguided Christians). It goes back to what ShadowMom wrote recently about those with faith not practicing their faith, or trying to forcibly impose their beliefs on others -- both of which are condemned by Christ's teachings.
It does get discouraging to ponder all that bad stuff, doesn't it.
But that's one of the sad results of God granting people choices about how to live their lives.

I'm in Fobix's corner. Right on, bro!! or Sis!!!

I love it captdunsel--sounds like the beginnings of a new religion to me! My daughter's at the right age for this, too. Do you mind if I share it with her?

Fobix

"Code mentioned a central cognitive dissonance to Christianity, that is, a Creator that purposefully empowers man with freewill, then punishes him for exercising it"

Who do you believe is being punished? The adulterer has his reward on earth here in the form of his sexual gratification. The unsaved rich man has his reward in his money. The lying politician has his reward in his power. The false prophet, or minister has his reward in power, and personal wealth. They have their rewards right here on earth. Why do they need Heaven? God is not responsible for your choice nor the consequences of those choices.

There are so many more blessings that come through faith.

Gee George, you see dead people? How exciting! Next time you see CS Lewis, would you ask him a couple of questions for me?

The dead people in Iraq.

They don't interview well.

What about the dead people in Israel? The dead people in Palestine. The dead people from the tsunami? Which brings us back to this thread....these have nothing to do with God...only the misguided fools using GOD to justify their actions..again, mans choice, not Gods.

None of those dead people interview well, either. But a lot of them got their picture in Time magazine this week.

You know, I have tried my very best to not take this thread any more seriously than CaptDunsel.

If you believe in things you don't understand, then you're suffering...[drum/clavinet riff] from superstition anyway.

Hmm...

"If you believe in things you don't understand, then you're suffering...[drum/clavinet riff] from superstition anyway."

I believe in membrane physics, but I have trouble understanding it (especially the equations), so I guess you have to count me among the fold of the superstitious.
Truth be told, I still can't fully comprehend how live visual images can be relayed many miles through air to an antenna and received as a moving picture on a television screen, but I darn sure accept its reality.

Well, and I guess I have another embarressing confession: I used to teach biology, but I'm still somewhat mystified how a so-called 'simple' single-celled organism can have the resources and complexity tantamount to the physical flow of a major city.

Actually, my main problem is that the more I try to understand profound things, the more I become aware of other things that I still don't know enough about! (How frustrating; my self-esteem is always vulnerable to taking another hit, it seems.)

Okay, I admit: I believe in some things I don't understand, and I don't understand some of the things I believe in.
Oh, my goodness, did I really say that? It almost sounds irrational!
Hmm. I'd better not share these misgivings with my colleagues. No telling what they might think of me. I mean, what if they considered me (gasp) superstitious?

Diogenes2

High Five! Well said my friend!

Diogenes2

It has always been my problem how to understand how a five foot sunflower comes out of that little tiny seed...or a pumpkin, or watermelons...veggies of any size for that matter

I also humbly admit that I shouldn't have included flood victims in with the above. After all, it is the Lord's earth and He can rattle away any way He chooses. That should likely fall under the category of "see how fleeting life is?" "Pay Attention!"

I remember my father-in-law just three short years ago telling us "You think life goes by fast now? Wait till your our age" He was 76 at the time, and we just lost him this Christmas..

One place we don't have a choice is the hour of our natural death, which can hit on a seconds notice.

Aren't I a ray of sunshine this morning?

Pepe, thanks for your affirmation.
You know, sometimes the search for truth can be a lonely vigil. It's nice to have some company.

Isn't it humbling how life poses more questions than answers? The net effect is to make me feel pretty dumb, I can tell you that.

One night I was gazing up at the stars and thinking, I wonder what's beyond the end of the universe. But, then, I had to get a grip and face the prospect that there may be something there BEYOND the end (even if it's just blank space), right? Wait, then there may not BE an end...my mind went spinning and I had to shake myself.

Even something simple like the wind -- I can't see it, but, like magnetism, it's a force to be reckoned with.
I believe in the likelihood of some metaphysical forces, too, even though I don't understand them well. I guess that makes me unenlightened . . .

A recent episode of the Nova television series featured how there's an elite group of world-renowned physicists who have embraced the latest explanation of the string theory -- the "M theory" which hypothesizes the possible existence of a parallel universe that's neither visible nor delineated.
Those poor guys are almost as bad off as me.

Diogenes2

I believe the universe is infinite. Isn't it amazing how we just all sort of hang here in the balance? Literally

And thank you for the affirmation. Always nice to meet with fellow Christians. I'm just a humble housewife, with the wonderful opportunity to be able to work at home. Still leaves me lots of time to check in here between work.

I also think this site is the best for allowing such a diverse core of people to come together like this...I do believe it's a very special place indeed, and we have leflaw to thank for this, and of course everyone here.

And especially Codewarrior, who keeps bringing these subjects to the front...I just run with them

Parellel universe...well I have often contemplated deja vu. There are just so many questions that I have for the Lord, I'll be an old nag.

That wind, that force to be reckoned with you mentioned, is about to hit here in the form of a blizzard...I'd best go batten down the hatches....

"I believe the universe is infinite."

The universe may be limitless.
What puzzles me more is how some people think of it as not having a beginning.
It's physical matter. But in public education, seldom does anyone ask about the original 'stuff' that the universe must have come from -- how or from Whom?
Too deep a mystery for them to contemplate?
Or maybe they don't like the potential answers that might arise.
It's easier (less controversial) just to start with handy material already in place and then say, "Oh, it all began with a Big Bang."
Uh huh, just like my car initially began with pieces of plastic and metal at the manufacturing facility with no one able to say how the raw materials got there? That's a good one.

Many of my former students felt unsatisfied with that approach as well.
(Textbooks treated cosmic science without regard to possible intelligent design.)

Academic freedom . . . available information was shared, and a discussion of different ideas was allowed, along with merits of plausibility.
Those who wished to hold to either belief system were tolerated.
(I say either, because BOTH approaches require 'faith' of some sort.)

There is no reason to say that if they earth did start with a big bang, that it was not God's big bang, is there? He wanted to start somewhere, right?

I attended an eight week Bible and Science seminar many years ago..the one thing that stuck with me, and this may be silly, but some folk believe that the earth, being as old as they say it is..millions of years, rather than thousands of years, is improving with age. I don't know, if you take a tomato, and set it out there, does it improve with age? Or does it rot?

Anywho, here is a site I found that I thought you might enjoy..just a small one

http://home.att.net/~jamspsu84/ttocid.html Sure hope Jerry falwell isn't lurking about this one...it seems that every site I find lately, 'ole Jerry has something to do with it..and I've found a few folks here don't seem to like him much. Enjoy.

"I believe in some things I don't understand, and I don't understand some of the things I believe in."

Okay you two, how did you feel when you found out the truth about Santa? Or the Tooth Fairy? Or the Easter Bunny?

Enlightened? Shocked? Betrayed? Lied to?

What??? No Santa? No Easter Bunny? No Tooth Fairy??? Wahhhhhhh!!!!!! I'll tell you in a minute!

I'm serious. We teach our children not to lie. Yet the whole world conspires every year to lie to them about a guy who comes down the chimney.

I knew one girl who believed in Santa until she was fifteen because she trusted her parents and could not conceive of them telling her anything that wasn't true.

Faced with reality, she asked, "What else have they been lying to me about all of my life?"

gdZiemann

You know, you're right...I knew of a family that one of their kids rejected Christ because of that very thing.

Christian parents have to learn how to approach their children concerning their faith, but mostly by showing their children just how serious THEY are about it. When it is an every day part of your lives, kids tend to take it as a natural part of their familes lives. As serious as eating every day.

For our kids, we have a son and a daughter and of course raised them in our Pentecostal Christian home...right from the get go, we taught them the importance of giving and being truthful...as far as Santa was concerned, he was a real person, and we explained that to them. And so in the "santa spirit", or the spirit of this wonderful old gentlemen who loved children so much, he loved to bring them gifts, they accepted the truth of that.

As far as the tooth fairy and Easter bunny go, we always just approached them in such a playful manner, they never did take them THAT seriously..I always got caught trying to slip a dime or so under the bed anyway...I never heard them complain though

If you are truthful with your kids, if you raise your kids by DOING the things YOU SAY you are going to do...and that includes carrying out your threats of punishment when deserved, but loving them at the same time...they grow up with that same love and respect. If we promised something to them, we followed through with it, whether it was a dress for our daughter, or a drum kit for our son.(He's a very good drummer today I might add) Or a smack on the bottom for rude behavior.

We TOOK our kids to Church, faithfully, never wavering from our beliefs, and studied the Word right beside them.

The Bible tells us to "let our yes be yes, and our no, be no" It also tells us to stand firm, to keep from wandering and weaving.

I never worried about drugs or pregnancy or disease where it concerned them, and I'm happy to report we have great adult children now.

My parents never told me there was some old man that was Santa. They did tell me there was a God.

But, I'm still working on that connection between Christ on Golgotha and the chocolate Easter eggs....

Code,

you're a product of two staunch Pentecostal parents...I'm still trying to figure out how you got into so many other things, forget about santa, and you're right about the easter eggs..go figure eh?

"My parents never told me there was some old man that was Santa."

I don't think mine did, either, to be honest. But they did seem to put a lot of effort into avoiding telling me the truth, even under direct questioning.

"We can neither confirm nor deny... unknown unknowns..."