Bush re-elected
Turkish Daily News: 11/4/2004

By Gunduz Aktan

TDN- If the people of NATO countries had voted in the presidential elections of the only superpower in the world, John Kerry would have probably been elected as U.S. president. However, the American people chose George W. Bush. This election divided the United States right down the middle. Confusion in Ohio, similar to that which took place in Florida in the last election, damaged the respectability of the oldest democracy in the world.

Bush, in the second and last term in office, will try to eradicate polarization within the United States and the world because it appears that it will be very hard to rule over either without reaching a certain degree of consensus.

The main problem faced by the world and the United States is the new security threat of terrorism. The matter needs to be reassessed and a global agreement needs to be reached. The threat posed by terrorism necessitates armed conflict in the short-term. In this respect, the concepts of "preemptive" or "preventive" strikes or legitimate self-defense needs to be defined clearly. These concepts need to be redefined by the United Nations. In the event of a conflict waged against a terrorist group with weapons of mass destruction, members of the U.N. may be forced to intervene in other countries without adhering to the conditions listed in article 51 of the U.N. Charter. The development of a legitimate self-defense concept that would result in U.N. Security Council approval for any intervention under such conditions would necessitate the resolving of complex legal problems.

The medium and long-term objectives in the conflict against terrorism will be the changing of the social infrastructure that spurs terrorism. When one considers that terrorism originates mostly in Middle Eastern, Muslim countries and Muslim groups, the prevention of the war on terrorism devolving into a clash of civilizations becomes a priority.

No one can ignore the fact that Middle Eastern Arabic terrorism is fed by the Palestinian problem. Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's health situation may result in the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) developing a more collective democratic leadership. On the other hand, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon being forced to implement the "road map" may become a priority for Bush in his second term in office. Efforts to win over the support of all the Islamic countries may help in finding a solution for the status of Jerusalem.

There is no doubt that initially all of Bush's energy and attention will be concentrated on Iraq. According to the U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, the United States continues to lose ground in Iraq. Under these conditions, it seems very doubtful that the elections in Iraq will take place in January 2005. While the instability in the Sunni region continues, elections taking place in the Shiite and the Kurdish regions may result in the break-up of the country. This would be seen like a defeat for the United States. Kurds say they are in support of Iraq's territorial integrity, but their policy concerning Kirkuk betrays their real intentions. The United States may be forced to curb Kurdish aspirations.

There is no doubt that there are serious socio-economic problems within Muslim countries. The resolution of these problems will depend on the intensification of the efforts on economic development and democratization. Everybody now knows that armed intervention for regime change creates more problems than it solves. In this respect, a U.S.-European Union common stance could be a new opportunity for the mending of Trans-Atlantic relations.

It is very important for us to harmonize our relations with the United States, as well as our relations with the EU in Bush's second term. The EU is not a global force yet. The benefits and the influence any cooperative policy we might formulate together with the EU will be very limited in our region. The United States, on the other hand, plays a major role in the security and stability of the region. As long as the current balance of powers continues, the security cooperation between Turkey and the United States needs to be maintained. However, this cooperation seems to be linked to the developments concerning U.S. policy in Iraq. Turkey's fears concerning Iraq may be better addressed if the United States becomes more open to cooperation with its allies.

And the relevance to Boycott-RIAA is?

The election is over already. Get over it. Get back on track.

How did ohio damage the respectability of our democracy? I guess Turks are morons.

Who cares.

Not Ohio, Sherm, confusion. And you must admit, we've been voting long enough in this country we should have it down pat now, don't you think?

Actually, I thought you meant a turkey, not Turkey, leflaw.

God..another political parody post?
Enough already

And you "gobbled" it right up...

I had been up all night worried about what the Turks thought.

LOL, George!

Bush is the worst President this Country has ever seen. He is a pathological liar and the most immoral man to ever occupy the white house. He is a liar and a murderer. He is possibly the Anti-Christ who will lead us all into the fiery breaches of hell.

Bush's victory is an impediment to our cause.

But we have to live with it, raoul. People bought the package. Rove is good...very good.

I thought Ankara had a very well balanced assessment.

".. the most immoral man to ever occupy the white house."

How quickly we forget about Bill Clinton, huh ?

Bush was elected by self-righteous prigs who think getting an extramarital blow job is the height of immorality.

'Tis better to be led by a sex-offending "no one died when I lied" liberal Democrat than a warmongering bring-'em-on conservative Republican ?

Whatever. Thank God Bush won.

A resounding YES.
And the damn sex police should mind their own business.

No Carla -- The red states are possessed by Queer Fear. They don't worry about terrorists because terrorists only attack the huge cities in the blue states. But those gays are a threat to life. liberty and the American Way in the land of the pig farms.

That first sentence is scary. The last time I checked, this country was a sovereign nation. It's up to us to choose a leader, not outsiders.

Queer fear eh? As a gay male I can tell you ther we are indeed a threat to life! Watch out and cover your butts, cause we're out to fuck you and ruin the sanctity of marrige in the name of Lord Satan.

I didn't mean to imply that the self-righteous prigness only included heterosexual blow-jobs. I know it also included gay ones

And I was referring to the extra 3 million "church goers" who voted this time.

It certainly is nice to come to this site and find a whole page full of political rants and propaganda, but shouldn't we be focusing on issues that are at least somewhat related to the music industry?

Seriously, this site becomes more and more useless to me every day. I've stopped checking it every day, and now stop by maybe once a week. It's very tiring to have to wade through a cesspool of political ranting to get to something even remotely related to the music industry.

You should probably stick to checking sites like EFF.org then. They are straight news and information. Here we discuss the issues and support each other in these frustrating times.

"shouldn't we be focusing on issues that are at least somewhat related to the music industry?"

The RIAA has become so insignificant that no one even wants to talk about them any more. And there's no way to annoy such a self-important organization better than just flat-out ignoring them.

Besides, what's really more important -- the future (or lack thereof) of this country, or the financial fate of a bunch of fat-ass cigar-smoking greedy label execs from other countries?

The RIAA is just as much our own legitimate personal problem as is the Turks' opinion of the presidential election.

Both opinions carry the same weight.

TDN- If the people of NATO countries had voted in the presidential elections of the only superpower in the world, John Kerry would have probably been elected as U.S. president. However, the American people chose George W. Bush. This election divided the United States right down the middle. Confusion in Ohio, similar to that which took place in Florida in the last election, damaged the respectability of the oldest democracy in the world.

where the fuck was there confusion in ohio as in flordia, there wasn't it just was a bit close. damn forigners getting into our god damned politics, they should mind their own goddamn businness since their countries suck anyways even though most are modled after the USA.

Guys are you listening to yourselves? Carla when you wrote, "Bush was elected by self-righteous prigs who think getting an extramarital blow job is the height of immorality.", that is exactly the same type of rhetoric being spewed by Republicans and Conservatives following Clinton's reelection in 1996. Their description of Clinton at the time was "Bill Clinton is a pot smoking, gay loving, lying son of a bitch of a politician." They assumed that the majority of Americans believed as they did. They were proved wrong as Bob Dole found out the next night. They too thought, the world was ending and they were proven wrong. Likewise, not everybody feels the same as many on this site about Bush. He did win the popular vote by 3.5 million. The election is over, Bush won, and now you need to focus on 2006. You need to take back the senate and/house from the Republicans but it's not going to happen unless the Democrats can field candidates that appeal to that extra 3 million churchgoers you derided. They are citizens and have every right to participate as any other citizen. In any case, the Democrats need to field candidates that can appeal to moderate conservatives and take seats in the states that went Red.

mtekk: can we keep a more civil tone on this thread?

"where the fuck was there confusion in ohio as in flordia, there wasn't it just was a bit close. damn forigners getting into our god damned politics, they should mind their own goddamn businness since their countries suck anyways even though most are modled after the USA."


Ummmmm....... Tell us how you really feel? I would have just said something along the lines of; Why should we care what Turkey thinks? We're screwed up enough as is without other putting in their two cents.

carla I don't see you doing anything other than insulting people who didn't vote for anyone but Bush. I didn't vote for him either but c'mon. Lets respect others rights to vote the way they want to vote. Even if we don't agree.

We have no proof that bush won anything. No recount only a fixed election. How do we know he really won. We don't. No way to show it.

Calling people idiots and other names, mocking their honest beliefs, and cussing them out does not win converts from "EITHER" side of the issue. Too many people are shouting at each other and not caring to hear the other side. What is your purpose? Do you want to bring people to your side or tick them off?

There is a teacher at my old school, who taught 7th grade and is now the gifted teacher. He is an old hippy, as liberal as Carla, Leflaw, and George on political issues. But, he has lived such a fascinating life and someone I love to talk about music, computers, and teaching. Sure, we disagree on politics, but he never puts anybody down and we have great debates on the issues. Why can't we disagree on politics but end the day share a drink?

gilbd: You do realize had the election turned the other way, the conservatives and Republicans would be saying EXACTLY the same thing in relation to Kerry.

Have you visited any other country mtekk? Were your forebears from Europe? Do you know about anything that isn't in your own backyard?

And your spelling is embarrassing.

"We have no proof that bush won anything. No recount only a fixed election. How do we know he really won. We don't. No way to show it."

Oh good grief! We're not actually going to go there are we? People make some really good points on this site for and against Bush. This argument will get us nowhere.

But you do know it wasn't Kerry brother that made sure we had no proof in his state also I think Ohio was the same way.

"Why can't we disagree on politics but end the day share a drink?"

Because we get violent when we drink and we're REALLY pissed off about the name-calling that has gone on for a year now.

Personally, I think the Democrats ought to do what the Republicans do immediately after losing a presidential election -- start investigations and impeachment proceedings.

Carla to restate something from another thread.

"I've been behind the times I guess. I fail to see how typo errors and misspellings on the internet is some kind of measure on intelligence. I knew a college professor with two doctorates and he cant type to save his life. Does that lessen his intelligence? I think not. Lets cut out the anal retentiveness when it comes to people's typing abilities and stick to good discussion."


Granted his profane laced tirade doesn't speak volumes for him but I respect anyone who can voice their opinion in a manner that I can understand. As long as someone can type in manner that I understand I have no problems. Why does typing ability have such clout on the internet?

*Stand up Singing*

"Kum Ba Ya!"

But gibd you did see that Kerry saw Ohio as a waste of time if he decided to challenge it didn't you? Even though I voted for Kerry and have far different views of him now that I have seen Stolen Honor I respect him MUCH more as a person for conceding the way he did.

Nah Mike, I think the conservatives would have had a little more class and accepted Kerry as the new president. The folks at democrats.org/blog need to take a deep breathe and release slowly.

You can't recount votes that haven't been counted yet, gilbd. They're still at it, counting the provisionals in Ohio.

I voted for Bush in 2000 and I hapen to find this the funniest thing I have read on this site in the last several days. How true it is though.

"Personally, I think the Democrats ought to do what the Republicans do immediately after losing a presidential election -- start investigations and impeachment proceedings."

"I respect him MUCH more as a person for conceding the way he did."

Likewise.

Look, the person made a crack about Clinton being immoral. I am insulted by people who think an extramarital blow job is on the same level as Bush's lying.

In my post, I was not insulting everyone who voted for Bush (which I could do, have done, and have stopped doing), just the "churgh goers" who think their moral beliefs should be imposed on everyone else. And I won't apologize for that.

George: Both sides have been guilty of the name calling for far too long.

"Personally, I think the Democrats ought to do what the Republicans do immediately after losing a presidential election -- start investigations and impeachment proceedings." First, the likelyhood of that being carried out is even more unlikely now that the Republicans have increased their majority in both houses. Second, it will more than likely backfire against the Democrats as impeaching Clinton did the Republicans. Third, the Republicans will retaliate against the Democrats. Yup, no matter who got elected, there's too much hatred on the other side.

I think poor spelling and grammar is a sign of intelligence. If one is a poor speller, one should use spellcheck.

Tyops don't count, as I have often said.

I respect him also for that. But the fact is how do we check the votes to make sure also they had problems in most of these states with their votes being change. It was in the news on the net I posted one about it and I also read three places of upstanding newpapers about it. They claim they fixed it but how do we know they did. we have no proof. That is the main thing no proof.

George: I was in no way making fun of your response.

Like that typo!

I just wanted to be clear

"Look, the person made a crack about Clinton being immoral. I am insulted by people who think an extramarital blow job is on the same level as Bush's lying."

Indeed. It's quite ironic that Clinton gets impeached, while in any other job, his mates'd be giving him a pat on the back and a round of drinks down the pub.

I'm interested to know why you believe Bush's 'lying' is above the biggest problem with marriages in this country.

For starters, over 1,000 dead Americans and 100,000 dead Iraqis.

Carla I remember teasing the professor I posted about, telling him to use Word when he typed something on the internet. His response? "Hell I don't have time for that. Have to get my thoughts out before I forget 'em in my old age!" Maybe people just don't want to type something out using a spell checker and then cut and paste it to an internet chat forum. Was his spelling so bad that you couldn't understand his post? C'mon Carla you're more intelligent than that. Harping on someone's typing is petty.

I think it's an embarrassment that he complains about stoopid other countries when he can't type a sentence.
I don't think that is petty.
I think it's indicative of how provinical so many Americans are.

provincial. As I said, I don't mind typos. It's flaunting one's ignorance that annoys me.

.. I Toldya about the racism/homophobic mix and it's effectiveness..kneejerk politics and politicians with clever slogans slip easily into the pit of us/them, black/white, jingoism.. How does that relate to the RIAA and this site? Simple. Now money will buy anything in congress.. so you can boycott all ya wanna.. won't much matter now with the bought congress we got now.. go to the courts? fight the lawsuits? won't matter now. If you ain't represented by bigshot lawyers with bigshot lobbyists, your lawsuit is considered frivilous.

Nevermind Carla. Personally I have more respect for someone that can pick apart someone's opinions with reason and logic rather than going after something easy like typing ability. I remember learning to type I used to type in ALL CAPS AND ONLY USED PERIODS AND QUESTION MARKS. How annoying that was. I was fresh out of high school and graduated with a 4.2 gpa. These are just my opinions and I'll stick to them. The typing ability argument against someone's intelligence is extremely petty and lazy. If you feel that strongly I won't be able to change your mind so go get 'em!

Politically, I think that the current US climate will solidify the EU as a new world political entity.. what do you folks living in Europe think?

It's not typing ability. It's literacy. I certainly hope you grade your students on grammar and spelling.

Jazz the right price has been able to buy anything in congress for MANY MANY years. What's your point?

You GO, Carla!!

I don't type much on here because I can't spell good. People will say get a dictionary. Well I have one but that doesn't always help how do you find a word when you don't know how to spell it. I have had to change my words a lot of times because I can't find the word I want to use. But that's my problem. But that's why I don't type more. And I do see people come down on others for it. I not trying to make anybody mad but it does make it hard for some of us to type on here. I'm always afraid I will spell something wrong.

That congress, Stevepjc, if a one-sided majority, be it Rep or Dem, knits itself into a formidable wall against any representation of small folk..

Contrasting views on morality/immorality, as I figured. Disagreement reached.

"It's quite ironic that Clinton gets impeached, while in any other job, his mates'd be giving him a pat on the back and a round of drinks down at the pub."

Um, just for the sake of perspective, it was the false statement Bill signed in the written deposition (equivalent to "perjury") that the Repubs could have focused more on, if they had been smarter. But once they were content to allow sex be the pivotal issue, they lost some momentum (as most of us could have predicted at the time.) And, ultimately, the impeachment effort failed.

I only mention this to set the record straight about what might have counted more, legally, if one were an opponent of Clinton (who, himself, was holding a bar license at the time).

I've gone out of my way to talk to people in person who voted for Bush...have listened to the folks on CSpan...and in general...tried to find a consensus on what seemed to be the reasons and issues they voted for Bush...
(the following are usually issued with a very strong Southern twang/whine)...

1) He's a Good Maaaaaaan
2) He's against them "Queers Marrying"
3) He's against abortion
4) He'll protect us from the "tare=ists" (sic...terrorists)

gilbd -- I promise never to fault your typing, and will only offer corrections for learning.

I'm sure whatever you have to say will not be comparable to:
"damn forigners getting into our god damned politics, they should mind their own goddamn businness since their countries suck anyways even though most are modled after the USA."

All I'll say Carla is I judge a person more on their ability to get an effective point across. Spelling, grammar, and typing ability is a distant second.

(BTW, technically, lying under oath is still perjury -- no matter WHAT the topic of the lie is about.)

"I'm sure whatever you have to say will not be comparable to:
"damn forigners getting into our god damned politics, they should mind their own goddamn businness since their countries suck anyways even though most are modled after the USA.""


Now THIS I will agree with. He could have got his point across better. Anger does alot to people's ability to communicate.

I only fault people on their spelling and grammar if they act like assholes!

Jazzmary that has been our system since day one. Does it need to be reformed? You betcha it does. Sadly though it's what we're saddled with until someone powerful enough comes along and has a mind to change it.

Thank you for that carla it means a lot to me.

Code I don't agree with you on much of anything but I DO agree that if someone shows their ass anything is fair game.

Hi,code! Let's see what this current government will bring.. I am still proud of the fact that all the work in this country got the vote out. All I ever wanted was a fair fight.. and, although I think we were slicked and screwed.. and tha the Osama tape was the defacto Willie Horton of 2004.. ( They're comin' to GET ya!) We still have to give the current US government time to show us what direction they are going to take.. then we can react and act accordingly.. we have court fights (political), boycotts, and petitions (political) actions ahead.. and gilbd, it's the honest expression of thought that counts here..

Bush, who has held fewer solo press conferences than any recent president, frequently cut off reporters trying to ask follow-up questions, quipping he could do so "now that I've got the will of the people at my back."

What a shifty little smug asshole. As far as I'm concerned a terrorist attack on a red state is not an attack on my country.

"As far as I'm concerned a terrorist attack on a red state is not an attack on my country."

I'm a firm believer of respecting others beliefs. This statement though takes the cake. You wish death on people exercising their rights as American's to vote for whomever they wish? How American of you.

stevepjc, give raolduke time, bro! I was that mad on Wednesday! I have been punked by the smug in more ways that you can count, and frankly, that pisses one off!! But free speech is allowed here.. including blowing off steam!! As a new resolve.. for the America that I hoped for is gone.. I am knitting in my heart a new strategy to not only survive, but more effectively change things around here for the better.

Thank you also Jazzmary

I didn't vote for the man either but unless I want to rennounce my American citizenship, George Bush is my president for the next four years. I have 20% use left in my right arm after my time in Desert Storm. People who say things like raoulduke just did it makes me wonder why. Why did I join the army? Why did I want to follow a family tradition and serve in the US Armed Forces? What the hell was I fighting for? Oh yeah that's right. My country.

Wow, I leave you people alone a couple of hours, come back, and George is posting on a political thread!!!! Wonderful!!!!
gilbd, even though a lot of us feel like we wuz robbed --so far I have yet to see any real reports of fraud, only a few machines with too many fingerprints on them. If you find any more reports, post them please, I would like to read them.
Jazzmary, I've been trying to figure out what happened in northern Florida, where so many African Americans were disenfranchised last election, because Jacksonville and Tallahassee both went Bush on us. If all those people were so mad, why did Bush win there? Any clues?

Code, I got different answers than you. When I asked people why they were voting for Bush (I wish this were a joke, but it's true) I got:
a) Kerry's scary
b) Teresa's scary
c) God told them to.
Okay, #3 is made up. But I really had one person who is related to me (for which I will never forgive her) say, "Did you hear what Teresa said?!"
I told her no, what did Teresa say.
"She said Laura Bush never worked a day in her life! Can you believe that?!"
When I told her Teresa had also apologized for it, her response was, "And so? Does that make it all right?!" I think she was holding out for burning Teresa at the stake. Oh yeah, she used that survey from the Christian Coalition, too. Just an example of another informed voter.

And Kerry's scary? Not anywhere near as scary as some of the right-wing nutcakes out there.
(Also scary is how many of those kind of misguided right-wingers there are in America who gave Dubya another four years.)

I was just surprised that so many people had no idea what the issues were--they would stand around and ask each other, "Who do we want here? Which one are we voting for?"

To me, that's amazing and disgusting.

"Kerry's scary" -- hmph!

And I suppose Dubya isn't?

"And you must admit, we've been voting long enough in this country we should have it down pat now, don't you think?"

No, what I'm saying is.. nothing happened in Ohio other than the following:

Bush got more of the popular vote, so he got the electoral votes. Gee, someone call the press.

But still, Turks are morons if they think they could count over 100,000,000 ballots without a hitch.

"misguided right-wingers there are in America who gave Dubya another four years."

Are you sure it wasn't just misguided left-wingers who attempted to remove him?

Probably somewhere in between, huh?

Folks, the nation is polarized and I predict (un) civil war within a few years. I don't advise standing in the middle cause you will only get caught in the cross-fire. If you are a "sane" moderate, and you refuse to "pick sides", please, get the hell out of the way!

Oh well, at least we get to dodge that ancient curse that says "may you live in calm and uninteresting times."

Shmoo, of Electric Gypsy
Support Local and Independent Music!

"There's no way to annoy such a self-important organization better than just flat-out ignoring them."

You can't believe that. The purpose this website should be to ignore the RIAA? Don't you think they'd like for people to ignore them?

The purpose of this website? Which one?

"Don't you think they'd like for people to ignore them?"
Not if it means ignoring each and every product they produce.

I get a kick out of some of the posters who started to read the above article but apparently only comprehended the first paragraph and didn't see the word "if" it started with. The rest of the article is a pretty fair synopsis of what's going on.

By the by, the country is 5.3 trillion in debt. If you don't want to pay taxes, how do you think you'll pay it off? Are you going to force them "dammed foreigners" to start buying American goods? That'll work great , especially when all they hear from americans is ungrateful hatred of anybody daring to have an opinion. To most other countries, America is still quite young. Also the people here just didn't spring up from the ground, they emmigrated from the dammed foreign countries some of you routinely spit upon. Americans are the only people on the planet who go to somebody else's country and call THEM foreigners. BTW, the brits used to do the same thing before the big fall.

Hey, stevepjc, all I said was that an attack on a red state was not an attack on my country. I did not advocate violence in anyway shape or form. Pay attention and work on your reading comprehension skills. Furthermore, you have no idea where I live or where I'm from in the first place.

As far as I'm concerned those people are not Americans. "Home of the brave" remember? That means no cowards. Bush and his supporters are cowards. They attack the weak and the defenseless while running from the strong. Cowards. They put their faith in an after life because they are afraid of dying.

Now, I'm afraid of dying too. And my way of dealing with it isn't any better or worse than fantasizing about some supreme being. I just tend to try and not think about it. However, the Bush supporters have some sort of delusion that if you take away everyone’s liberty and you drop bombs on brown people then you can have safety and security. Well, I’ve got news for ya, it’s a big bad world out there and if you want to get by you’re going to have to take a punch or two and throw a bunch or two. But I’ll be damned if I am going to feel bad for people who piss themselves and run around in circles destroying the earth just because they are afraid of losing their strip mining job, may have to witness a couple of guys making out or may have to watch someone else on tv die. Fuck those people. We’re all going to die anyway. It’s the life you lead while you’re here that counts.

Over 60 million people died in WII, if you don’t count the 100,000 people we murdered in Iraq, the number killed by terrorism is probably less than 10,000. What a fucking joke. Elizabeth Edwards has breast cancer, breast cancer will kill more women in America this year than the entire total for terrorism in the history of the world. Jesus Christ! More men, particularly rednecks, will die from prostate cancer this year and nobody even cares.

Historically, empires fall when they become overly aggressive and over extend themselves. No empire has ever crumbled by being too altruistic and sophisticated. If Bush and his cronies keep pushing they will break this country into pieces. And all the kings horses . . . you know the rest.

ShadowMom I tried to find the page at the Houston Chronicle for you. But I think you have to buy it now to see it.

But if you use Google you can find a lot on voting problems. This is how I find most of mine. I go to Google then I click on the News and then I do a search for Elections 2004 Voting Problems. I find more things this way then just trying to use the main page of Google.

Hey, gilbd...if you're a big user of Google then maybe I can let you in on a little trick I use to help my spelling. I have google installed into my Firefox browser, so when I'm not sure of my spelling...I give it my best try and highlight it, right click and on the bottom of the pop-up menu is google search. Google will correct the spelling for if it's not too far off. Then just copy and paste. Give it a go and I bet it will do wonders.

Thanks pinemikey I use word when for that but I will give it a try. Most of the time mine is way off. And I try to find another word I can use. But I will try it.

gilbd - Do you use IE? If so, try this:

http://www.iespell.com/download.php

works great ...

Here's a great one!!!! Gotta see this, you all knew it was coming. gilbd, this one's for you. Enjoy, but take it with a grain of salt unless a few more sources confirm it. Let the battle begin!

No, just enjoy it, don't start another war over it, okay? This guy works entirely too hard for his stories.

http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=930&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

Btw, just for the sake of fair play, when do we get to see Bush's assessment of Turkey?

Yes I do use IE thanks kyodylee I will try it. Boy I have never had so much help in all my life. Everybody is making me feel so good right now. To know you care has me with tears right now thanks everybody you are great.

Shadowmom, George W will issue a turkey report on November 26th.

I suppose george will be off to Crawford for some brush clearing. I'd say he's had more time for it since being president than anytime before. I'm surprized it's not all gravel by now.

Loose brush is the work of the devil....it must be eradicated!!!

If we could get this guy fired up as much about dirt on our street, the pavement would only be 1/256" thick.

I can't believe I read every post! I used to drop by this place several times a day and lately just don't bother because of the political opinions and nastiness.(spelling bee 101) I have missed hilarious tongue-in-cheeks, but do not miss the overbearing ranters who somehow believe that church goers do not have the right to vote...just vote, not impose their moral beliefs...how in the hell can you possibly tell their intention? Get this bitter crap out of your collective systems, and either do something about what you don't like or shut up.

Yay!!....now you got your political rant in too!!

ShadowMom - Here's his Turkey assessment,

the picture:

http://bootnewt.tripod.com/bushturkey.htm

AND the real story:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1206-02.htm

Nuthin' is too good for OUR troops! I bet their mouths are already drooling for this year's bird.

FUCK GOD!

I keed the religious, and like to raise their blood pressure.

Thanks, kyodylee--I love the Guardian, it's fun to read and so irreverent. But it did leave out one detail. (Can't resist, sorry!) There were 2 plastic turkeys in the picture.

ShadowMom - ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ouch, Carla, now that you got their attention, how do you really feel?

I thought I would add a note about the name calling aspect..
Bush often refers to Karl Rove as "the architect"...and many call him the puppet master....

But, as we know, Bush likes to give people pet names/ nicknames....

His nickname for Karl Rove (who, by the way, to me looks a lot like Heinrich Himmler)...is "Turd Blossom"....
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/usa/karl-rove/
"For the next decade or so, Rove kept his nose buried up the ass of the nearest Bush. He helped George Jr. embarrass himself in a 1978 congressional bid, then bailed out of Bush Sr.'s first and failed presidential bid in 1979.

He maintained a close buddyship with the future president Junior, however. In a high point of Time Magazine's history of powerful journalistic coverage, a 2001 report revealed that George W. Bush's pet name for Rove is "Turd Blossom." No, really.

Rove helped Bush Jr. transform himself from rich-dilletante wastrel into rich-dilletante-wastrel-with-power in 1994, acting as his political adviser in Dubya's successful run for Texas governor. According to ABC News, more than half of the campaign's nearly $1 million budget went to Rove. Considering the challenge of making Bush look good, the sum was probably not out of line. "

I was partially reacted to W's statements today:
"I will reach out to everyone who shares our goals..." (bite me)
"And we will uphold our deepest values of family and faith. " (so if I have no family or faith I don't count??)

What happened to the turkey? No, don't tell me, I don't want to know!!!!

I'm looking at the connectedness of his two statements:

"I will reach out to everyone who shares our goals..."
"And we will uphold our deepest values of family and faith."

By "our goals", he may mean his base of Republican goals!

By "our deepest values of family and faith", he may mean his base of right-wing values of family and faith!

So, that being the case, most of us ARE left out.
(Non-conservatives don't count anymore.)

Buzzwords, Carla, that's all it is. He rarely says anything of importance, and generally uses small phrases with just a few key words--like Weapons of Mass Destruction (4 words), Let's Roll (2 words), Bring It On (3 words), the all-important There Will Be No Draft (5 words), and we can't forget Raise the Debt Ceiling (4 words). I personally think he's insulting people with this method, but then who knows?

His method works with his base of support: They vote for him.
(That may say more about his base of support than it does about him.)

That's what scares me.

"I will reach out to everyone who shares our goals..." (bite me)
"And we will uphold our deepest values of family and faith. " (so if I have no family or faith I don't count??)

I heard that crap too carla. (spooky, ain't it.)

During, and at the end of his exceptance speech... I somehow couldn't stop myself from looking at the gray banners on either side of the stage with the stark
"W" emblazoned.

It was a chilling visual. (Kinda like an "after-image" burned onto my retinas after looking at certain pics from the late 1930's early 1940's...

Anyone read the comic strips in the paper where you gotta compare 2 similar pictures and pick out the differences?

lol

BTW, "exceptance" was a deliberate mis-spell of "axceptance" (which I can't spell anyway because I refuse to "accept")



May you live in uninteresting times!

Shmoo, of Electric Gypsy
Support Local and Independent Music!

The W's put one in mind of swastikas.
John Stewart called the the W Hotel.

If I could just hack into Karl Rove's transmitter....you'd see different works coming out of Bushy's mouth....got me thinking....
Wouldn't that be cool>?

I personally would have Georgie "doin' the dozens"....like...
Osama..Yo Mama....

or...a rappin' Geogie...

"well my name is Dubya and my Dad's an O.G.
I threw down my gang signs at the Iraqis...

I never done a driveby, but I soaked suds in the Guard....
And everyone knows, I say I'm workin' hard....
(then the scratch part happens)..
work...work...workin' hard....workin' hard...

Me and the Dems will be workin' hand in glove...
and I promised the OB-Gyns they could share their love...
(scratch continues)...share...share.... share their love..."


"so it goes"-Kurt ("CrazyMan") Vonnegut

lol..works AND words

It might be good to read 1984 by G. Orwell before the USA government outlaws it. There might be some lessons to be learned.

Gee... no one here ever considered a similarity to current events and Orwell.

you might find this interesting to see just how bad the democrats really did http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm

thats new to me fred

Sometimes I wonder, can those of us here who are more "right wing" in their polo-tiks tell by our words/posts/language that we are very very upset and worried over recent events???

lol

i dont consider myself right wing more moderate but seeing how the extreme left operates i lean more towards the right every day

here in the socialist republic of portland oregon they are blocking traffic protesting the election ( even though kerry won here ) throwing bricks through peoples windows with bush signs in the front yards , painting peoples houses with hate messages and making death threats to the local radio talk show hosts and the left is supposed to be the tolerant side , give me a break lol

There is absolutely no sense in debating you duke. You are so far left it is pointless. If you are an American I am ashamed.

"Historically, empires fall when they become overly aggressive and over-extend themselves....[not] by being too altruistic and sophisticated."

Steve, is THIS perspective (by the duke) pointless?

Are you suggesting that the United States is even close to imploding? When I say imploding I mean anarchy in the streets, Government falling, and the country literally falling apart? If you mean that than YES I think it's pointless as well as highly delusional.

I'm just waiting for someone to pipe in with, "He's not MY President."

I'm still waiting for a rational explination of this statement.

"As far as I'm concerned a terrorist attack on a red state is not an attack on my country."

"Historically, empires fall when they become overly aggressive and over-extend themselves...."

"Are you suggesting . . ."

I'm suggesting that the statement he made about empires has merit.

(MY only previous comment about it was asking if you thought it was pointless.)

"If Bush and his cronies keep pushing, they will break this country into pieces."

The way they've already pushed and encroached against civil liberties, the way they've launched a pre-emptive military attack against a country that was not a direct threat to us, not to mention the way they've threatened other nations with "axis of evil" provocations, yeah, it's not hard to make the leap to what the duke said about "if Bush and his cronies keep pushing".

He's not my kind of President.

Can someone please explain to me what Bush meant when he said he has political capital to spend?

I hope it's not about Bush and his cronies having a privilege of power to keep pushing...

How about a little tongue-in-cheek "math lesson" here:

Let 'bull' = Bush and his cronies
Let 'china shop' = fragile individual liberties and precarious foreign diplomacy
Let 'access' = "political capital to spend" (not having to face voters again + Republican Congress for at least two years)

Then:
'Bull' has 'access' to 'china shop'.

Carla, he probably doesn't know what he meant. Here's an article about that "political capital" that Bush mentioned:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2109246/

From the article referred to by Lachatte:
Bush's words included, "fighting and winning the war on terror" -

[casting disdain]
Does he really think there are THAT many people gullible enough to believe a kind of (global) anti-terrorism war is win-able, with him at the helm?
(Wait! 51% of the population may be!)

"Can someone please explain to me what Bush meant when he said he has political capital to spend?"

He spent all of the real money in the country so now he's going to create imaginary money and spend it, too.

George, that's a good one!

I tried to read the transcript of the press conference, but it made my head hurt. "Alleve" -- he's not just mangling the English language, he's creating a whole new one. It would be nice to hear Dubya answer one question ... just one.
He's got to be the most inarticulate president we have ever had.
Thanks for the link, Lachatte.

Hail to the chief.

One-finger salute?

Sheesh.....

rightwingnj: Tom sent this link to me a couple of weeks ago. Watch and listen to G.W. Bush in a debate in 1994 and the recent 2004 debate:
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=George%20Bush%201994%20debate%20AND%20mediatype%3Amovies

And now, some encouragement from Chicago Tribune columnist, Mary Schmich.

24 blessings for all of us losers to count
Mary Schmich
November 5, 2004

OK, fellow losers. It's time to wipe your nose, dry your eyes, gargle and look on the bright side.

Time to stop whimpering, "It feels like a death in the family." Time to stop muttering, "I'm moving to Canada." Time to stop wishing you could get your hands on a few of those Iraqi weapons that went AWOL after the American invasion.

The best way to conquer rage, bitterness and grief is to count your blessings. So let's go:

1. Thanksgiving is coming.

2. Barack Obama.

3. Christmas is coming.

4. Barack Obama.

5. Alan Keyes. Really, isn't he fun? And he says he's going to stick around Illinois to keep the show going.

6. The defeat of John Kerry. Now no one can blame him or his supporters if the war in Iraq gets worse.

7. Gloating. Be grateful you didn't have the chance. Given the opportunity, you, too, would have done it, and it would have looked just as unattractive.

8. The first snow is coming. If you don't consider that a blessing, you should be voting in Florida.

9. The defeat of John Kerry. Now no one can blame him when the rich get richer.

10. Or when even more software programmers are forced to drive cabs.

More blessings:

11. Only three more months to the January sales.

12. California stem cell research. Backed by Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, California voters just went where the federal government won't--they approved $3 billion of research on human embryonic stem cell research. As California goes, so goes the nation. Eventually.

13. Bipartisan cooperation. You think that's a joke? Just because Congress is dominated by the same conservative conservatives that run the White House? Well, we need a laugh.

14. Melissa Bean. A middle-age suburban Chicago woman beat the 35-year incumbent, Phil Crane, to win a seat in Congress. Like Barack Obama, she appealed to voters across party lines. Proof that regimes can indeed change. Peacefully.

15. Barack Obama.

16. The defeat of John Kerry. Now no one can blame him when the newly united Europe gets it together enough to start bullying the U.S. back.

17. Four more years--before "CSI" is pre-empted again by election coverage.

18. James Spader. No, he wasn't a candidate. He's a "Boston Legal" character, prime-time's most charming sleazebag. But he's got the scummy ethics and seductive gaze of a top-notch politician.

19. No more Swift Boat ads.

A few final blessings:

20. Barack.

21. 2012.

22. Obama.

23. This wise thought from the late H.L. Mencken, which proves they just don't make pundits as good anymore: "Democracy is the theory that holds that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."

24. And this wisdom from the re-elected president, spoken Thursday at his first post-election press conference: "Life is bigger than just politics."

Thank you, Carla. I'll bet #23 is your favorite.

I think it's funny that CNN is reporting on the phenomenon. (I wonder if Bush supporters would be this depressed had he lost.)

Some Kerry supporters glum after loss

NEW YORK (AP) -- It's a long way from the Manhattan office of psychoanalyst Sherman Pheiffer to the Cambridge, Massachusetts, practice of psychologist Jaine Darwin. But both are in blue states that voted heavily for John Kerry, and on the day he conceded, they heard plenty of distress about the election.

"My patients were incredulous, depressed, angry, very frightened," Pheiffer said. "Everyone talked about feeling frightened (about) the future of this country."

Darwin heard the same kinds of reactions. At the end of the campaign, Massachusetts Democrats "kind of let themselves hope Kerry would pull it out," she said, so patients felt "the roller coaster had crashed. I think we all had a little post-Red Sox magical thinking."

And among Kerry campaign volunteers, of course, the loss was still stinging the day after the concession.

"If I happened to be on a tranquilizer or Prozac, I would have to triple my dose," joked Sam Feldman, a 75-year-old retired businessman who lives on Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts but who volunteered for Kerry in Florida.

Elizabeth Marshall, a volunteer at the Centre County Democrats headquarters in Pennsylvania, said people there showed "bereavement, almost. People feel that something they had, which was hope for imminent change, has been taken from them."

The good news, mental health experts say, is that most Kerry supporters will get over their disappointment on their own. In fact, maybe sooner than they think.

"Right now you've got them at the depths of their despair," said Daniel Gilbert, a Harvard psychologist who has studied voters' emotional reaction to elections. "They're not going to feel worse in a week. They're going to feel better."

In fact, Gilbert said, his work has shown that voters get over their election-day disappointments faster than they predict they will.

"They don't think they'll be over it in a month, but they will be," he said.

Even now, Pheiffer, Darwin and other mental health professionals said they weren't getting any new patients because of the Kerry defeat. And Dr. David Rissmiller, chairman of the psychiatry department at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey-School of Osteopathic Medicine, said there's been no election-related jump in calls at two New Jersey crisis centers he's familiar with.

Temporary sadness, anxiety and concern about the future are understandable responses among Kerry supporters, said Dr. Charles Goodstein, a psychiatrist at the New York University Medical Center.

So when is it time to call a mental health professional? "When something goes on longer than you're comfortable with, then talk to somebody," Darwin advised. "You don't have to have major depression to talk to somebody."

Healthy reactions to post-election disappointment include talking about it with others and becoming or remaining politically active, experts said.

"I think it's important to give yourself a little bit of time to grieve," said Mary McClanahan, a psychologist in State College, Pennslyvania, who volunteered along with Marshall at the local county Democratic headquarters.

She described herself as "incredibly disappointed" but also galvanized.

Her fellow volunteers felt the same way, she said. And for both civic and psychological reasons, she said, such people should re-invest that energy in politics.

"Whenever we suffer a disappointment, and there's a chance to have a future success experience and we don't take advantage of that, it leaves people with greater regrets in the long run," she said.

I can't say thoughts of the holidays or snow cheer me. Barack Obama yes. Air America, Comedy Central, yes. And you guys here (and I mostly mean the women!).

Why is everyone so excited about Barack Obama? America will never elect a black man to be president.

mroop...I think they will. Did you hear him speak. I'm white and a woman and I would vote for him.

That is if I don't become a baglady. Which my chances are better now. At my age I can't get a job. And I won't have any Social Security in five years. Because Bush will have spent any money that we have left. He said he has more political capital to spend. And if thats what I think I'll be a baglady.

People who speak well are disliked by the ignorant masses of America. They prefer an idiot like George Bush because he is just like them. Americans are scared of the fags and the terrorists and especially an uppity black man who dares to speak well. It is threatening to them.

But they like to think they are politically correct.
He could at least be Vice President. Which would be a waste because he's so good.
moopie, do you think the election was stolen? I'm listening to too much Air America.

I think these people think Bush is some kind of God. But what I see is a demon of the devil. Do you see the glee in his eyes. It's like a demon. It's really makes me want to hide in a cave somewhere.

I doubt it was intentionally stolen but what do I know? Randi Rhodes is going nuts. : ) I don't put too much stock in her because I think she is a bit of a demagogue. According to her, Democrats are always right and have never done anything wrong and are perfect in every way. I prefer a more realist approach and I think Randi goes too far.

As far as being politically correct, what people say and what they do in the privacy of the voting booth are two different things. I think a lot of us underestimate the feelings of the heartlanders about the fags and the intelligentsia and the Hollywood liberals. I think they really do feel their way of life is threatened and they are angry and scared. If only they realized it was the right winger corporatists who are hurting them. But that will never happen.

Maybe you saw that study that showed Bush supporters believe that Bush supports issues that he does not support. They think he is in favor of the Kyoto treaty and the International Criminal Court even though Bush has clearly stated he is not in favor of these things. But they support these things and then impute them to Bush. Unfortunately, it's very easy to trick most Americans. They really don't have a clue of what is really going on.

It's hard to explain Paul Simon and Barack Obama as Illinois Senators.

"As far as I'm concerned a terrorist attack on a red state is not an attack on my country."

hate to break it to you, but not everyone in the "red states" voted for bush. A good friend of mine goes to Wooster, a liberal arts college in Ohio, and she campaigned for months and Nov. 2 she went to the nearby trailer parks and neighboorhoods and explained to people why they need to go out and vote.

and somehow you think because a little more than half of a state voted for bush, it would be just fine if they were attacked.

i find that extremely offensive and ignorant.

i have relatives in florida, they voted for kerry, do you want them bombed, too?

please, pull your head out of your ass.

People, what do you want to accomplish?
Do you want to keep the Republicans in control of all three branches of government? So far, I have heard many people doing the usual denegrate Bush posting and say that those who voted for him are ignorant and deluded. That may be fine and dandy and make you feel good. However, did it occur to you that such rhetoric may turn off people who you might have reached through a lively debate. I honestly believe that Michael Moore and company energized moderates and people who might have stayed at home to come out and vote against Kerry and the Democrats. You have to give them a reason to vote for your guy and not assume everybody hates Bush as you do. The Republicans and Bob Dole learned that lesson in 1996 and it looks like the Democrats and John Kerry have also been taught the same lesson.

mroop: You absolutely correct with your comment about how heartlanders feel about homosexuals and the intelligentsia and the Hollywood liberals. You should also include many in the deep south as well. But how are you going to bring them over to your point of view by insulting them and calling them names?

If you want to have any chance of taking back the senate in 2006 and the presidency in 2008, you have to find some way to give voters in the conservative parts of the country to vote Democrat. It has been done before look at Jimmy Carter in 1976 and Bill Clinton in 1992 and 1996. Both men ran as moderates and captured votes in the south.

As for the state amendments against Gay Marriage that passed by huge majorities and brought the evangelicals out to vote for Bush, thank the Massachusetts Supreme Court.

Had that court not struck down the Massachusetts law against Gay Marriage, you wouldn't have seen the wave of anti-Gay marriage amendments. Most people I know do not approve of homosexuality but taolerate it. Live and let Live.

Thanks to the clause that forces states to honor other state's decisions, there was the impression that the Massachusetts Supreme Court making law for the rest of the country. So, the people who had strong moral reservations against homosexuality came out against it. Now the question is, how many of them would have turned out for Bush if the Massachusetts law on marriage had not been struck down? I don't think you would have seen all of these Defense of Marriage amendments being passed.

"As far as I'm concerned a terrorist attack on a red state is not an attack on my country."

Yeah, that really gets people to listen to your point of view. However, consider the implications of such an action:

1) Passing of legislation that makes The Patriot Act look like a local issue to raise the local sales tax.

2) Should the attackers who perpetuate such an act turn out to be Arab and/or Muslim like the members of Al Qaeda, think of the backlash against people of the Muslim faith or Arab. Can you say lynch mobs and burning down mosques?

3) Then, if the attackers turn out to have been supported by a foreign country like Iran, Sudan, or North Korea for example, don't be surprised if said country gets turned into glass.

Think before you speak for the consequences should your wish come true are far worse.

"However, did it occur to you that such rhetoric may turn off people who you might have reached through a lively debate.

Absolutely wrong!!! 100% wrong. This election was lost because the Democrats played way too nice. John Kerry should have not voted to give the president authority to invade Iraq (abdication of constitutional authority) and he should have called him out on the fact that "W" is a liar, coward and a racist.

"As far as I'm concerned a terrorist attack on a red state is not an attack on my country."

Methaphors people. Poetry, art, politics. get it together.

If you notice the terrorists don't attck the red states anyway. They attack the blue states. The states who for the most part aren't 25% populated with chickenshit cowards and who vote to uphold our values.

If you look at the US from space at night there are the light parts and the dark parts. The light parts happen to neatly coincide with blue states and the drak parts neatly coincide with the red states or former slave states. HMMMMMMMMMMMM? curious.

"and somehow you think because a little more than half of a state voted for bush, it would be just fine if they were attacked."

And one would clearly hope that your friend is safe and protected. However, the greatest danger in America is obesity, not terrorist attacks. So if she practices good portion control and exercises regularly she should be fine and free from danger.

thats fine keep that attitude and then run hillery in 2008 the "reds" will hold office another 8 years

I like Hillary, but I hope she has enough sense of duty to the country to know she would not win as president and should stay a senator.

nice remark carla thank you

She has as much charisma as a rock, doesn't she?

we've all had our differances here but if we all thought alike it wouldnt be any fun

I just read this: "The British tabloid Daily Mirror summed up the feelings of many of its disappointed readers in a blunt front-page headline, “How can 59,054,087 people be so DUMB?”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6407893/

yeah and im sure the left wing us papers would like to say the same thing who gives a rip

good artical though sorry about that

They're just about the only allies we have left in the world. I care and I feel the same way. Oh, I didn't mean to forget POLAND. How DUMB of me!!

Yeah, ShadowMom. Don't forget Poland.

Charisma isn't everything (John Kerry!). She's a good midwestern girl. She's very bright. She'd be a good president. But the country would not elect her.
Anybody remember Adlai Stevenson?

he received the largest popular vote of any losing candidate in American history.

wonder if Kerry took that record now ?

Okay, she cosponsored Hatch's Induce Act. And charisma helps. Unfortunately, sometimes it counts for way too much.

Hillary needs a good talking-to.

Yeah, well, we have 4 years to do it, right?

"However, did it occur to you that such rhetoric may turn off people who you might have reached through a lively debate."

You mean the way Bush makes most of us feel with his inability to do nuance, admit mistakes, bear responsibility, and lack of command of the English language, geography, history and math.?

Hillary Clinton?

Haven't you people figured it out yet? Bush didn't win because he deserved it, he won because the Democrats put the most piss poor candidate possible out there. Except for, of course, Hillary Clinton.. the absolute worst possible candidate. What a psychotic mega-liberal bitch. If you don't like republicans being elected, you might not want to support shitheads like hillary or kerry.

When Bush speaks---oh, God, he gives me a headache. Do all his speeches go in an archive somewhere, for reference? Or maybe to be used in English classes as examples of how to get failing grades? (But I understand he gets those code words in there, doesn't he?)

Oh, well, Sherm, which shithead would YOU recommend?

What really gets me is these religious people think they are the only right ones. If I remember it is God that has the right to judge people not us. And they are wrong to say its is not gods wishes. Has god come down and talk to them and told them this. My dad was a preacher in the Assembly of God Church and he said it was only gods right to condemn us and not for us to condemn others. And by them being this way about gays they are condemning people that they have no right to condemn. These people are not really good people if they do condemn others just because of the church. That’s not gods way. And they should not be using god this way. Until god comes down here and tells me himself I don’t have the right to condemn anyone. But as long as these people keep condemning others they may have a problem when they die. It just might get a little warm where they go. I get sick every time I hear one of these so call religious people say its gods wishes. And they think its ok to kill. Look at how many people have been kill over all this. And they say that’s ok. Like I said it may get pretty warm. They should be ashamed.

Sorry everybody I just had to get that out.

"And they should not be using god this way."
I don't think it can be put any better than that. I always figured, though, that if I'm wrong and there is a hell, I'll be going there when I die. It won't be because I'm evil or immoral; I just do not believe. But if those people are going to hell for sure, I refuse to participate in this particular field trip.
You sound like a true Christian, gilbd, and I certainly respect you for that.

www.youforgotpoland.com

Here's Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson talking about 9/11 on 9/13/2001:

Falwell really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen."

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur ...

http://www.actupny.org/YELL/falwell.html

I forgot Poland AGAIN? It must be my pre-senile dementia acting up again!! They're both still in the denial stage anyway, mroop, but one day they'll come out of the closet, mark my words.

"But how are you going to bring them over to your point of view by insulting them and calling them names?"

I'm not trying to bring anyone over to my point of view. I'm just saying that most people are ignorant. They vote for a guy because they think he would be a good person to drink a beer with at the bar. Remember - 40% of Americans think that Saddam planned the 9/11 attacks. What does that tell you? It tells me that people are ignorant and probably stupid as well. They voted for George Bush because they think he's a "good guy". People are suckers. There's nothing I can do about that.

They do make a cute couple, don't you think?

Only 40% ? I thought it was more like 52%. Now that other 12% really has a lot of explaining to do!!

"but one day they'll come out of the closet"

Ha! Or get caught with a skanky hooker like Jimmy Swaggart. "I have sinned!"

ShadowMom I think of myself that way. But I don't believe everything that is in the Bible. You know Man did do the change from the old language. How do we know they didn't do it to fit their wants. I have read most of it. And had nightmares. The devil chase me all night in it. I quit reading after that. I thought you might get a good laugh out of this.

Hang around here a while, gilbd, and you'll learn to turn around and kick him in your dreams. I used to be a very quiet, normal person; now I think I'm getting kind of obnoxious. And I never ever laugh at people who truly believe. But televangelists and people like Robertson and Falwell who use religion for their own ends--well, they deserve every nasty thing we can say about them. And even the nasty things we only think...

mroop, you're bad!!

I agree . I don't go to church. Most of them are going just to see who can out dress the other. Are some crazy thing like that.And I sure won't watch those TV ones. I think as long as you treat people like you want to be trearted you are a good person. I guess you could say I have my own belief. I'm not the best person in the world. Just ask my husband he could tell you a lot. hahaha

People in Arizona don't fear hell -- we live in it.

"What really gets me is these religious people think they are the only right ones. "

So do the far left wingers and the far right wingers, right?

I don't put people left or right. I think we should be more than that. But when they put gays down just because they have a different lift style from the rest of us is that right or left to you. They should have the same rights that everybody else has. This is America right.

stevepjc I just can't see a real Christian putting the gays down. That is not a ture Christian. Unless it has changed. Because I was raised different. You don't put people down just because they are different.

most people in the US dont want a 1000+ year definition of marriage changed from one man one woman to same sex. they have the same rights by setting up the proper paperwork just not the term married . i dont see the big problem . unless the gays want my approval and i dont know why they would i dont want theirs

shadowmom, I can't say I have any specific shitheads in mind that really tower above the rest. Is hillary the best you can think of?

"thats fine keep that attitude and then run hillery in 2008 the "reds" will hold office another 8 years"

Yea keep telling yourself that it wasn't close. Two elections called on the last of the fourth quarter.

Just remember after your guy guts the judicial system the demographic trends are in our favor. When the worm turns you will be defenseless.

Out of th 80 million who didn’t vote, I’m willing to bet that more of them are on my side. I’ll take that chance.

"they have the same rights by setting up the proper paperwork just not the term married. "

Oh really? And where did you learn this piece of information? Do tell.

"he received the largest popular vote of any losing candidate in American history."

By percentage only, John Kerry got more votes tham Bush in 2000.

"You mean the way Bush makes most of us feel with his inability to do nuance, admit mistakes, bear responsibility, and lack of command of the English language, geography, history and math.?"

LOL!!!

just from what ive heard and to be honest i dont really care one way or the other

ive been married a couple times its not all its cracked up to be lol

What are they afraid of. Who is it hurting. I'm not gay I have a husband and 2 kids of my own. And I don't see where it hurts me if they want to marry. How can it hurt me or anybody else. As long as they are happy is all that matters. Also it gives them the same rights that we have. And that is the America way.

He snorted cocaine ... He dodged the draft....His friends knew him as an alcoholic womanizer with a bad temper....a complete failure at business until his wealthy friends rescued him. Yet within a few short years he was elected Governor of Texas, and quickly catapulted into the White House in spite of losing the popular vote. Then he was re-elected with last minute help from Osama Bin Laden, in spite of high disapproval ratings. He still couldn't think his way out of a wet paper bag without the advice of his staff .....and yet he's been able to declare an endless war and institute some of the most radical changes in American history ....

....... How has He done it?

I submit to you that George Walker Bush is the ANTI-CHRIST. The violence and destruction that began when Bush first entered office, is now certain to culminate in the apocalypse, as predicted in the Bible over 2,000 years ago.

Also it's just a piece of paper.

get over it

"just from what ive heard"

Well, unless you live in Vermont you heard wrong. But don't worry, you are like most Bush supporters - misinformed.

i live in oregon and they have been doing civil unions along time here

and marriages when they can get away with it lol

I say more power to them that are lucky to find someone to love. I would like to know how many people here has had god come down and tell them in person that he does not want gays to marry.

I'll check back tomorrow and see how many has been told. I have to go now. nite all

gnite take care

"he received the largest popular vote of any losing candidate in American history."

That's a useless piece of trivia. The US population is at it's highest point in history as well.

lol she wanted to know if i ever heard of the guy thats all i know about him

"He snorted cocaine"
"He dodged the draft"
"His friends knew him as an alcoholic womanizer "

You're talking about Clinton? Oh wait..he wasn't an alcoholic

George posted this link but nobody commented on it:
http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war34.html

It's a very interesting site. Thanks, George. I never would have found it.

Carla, have you read this article?: "Why Democrats Should Be Thankful -
At least they don't have to clean up the Bush fiscal catastrophe."
I don't know anything about world finance, so this statement was alarming: "It's only the willingness of the Chinese and Japanese central banks to buy our debt that keeps us afloat."

So, we're in debt because we're trying to fight the terrorists on their soil, while the Saudis, Chinese, and Japanese are buying our country?

http://slate.msn.com/id/2109203/

For anyone interested in learning about the national debt, here's a start:
http://brillig.com/debt_clock/

http://www.toptips.com/debtclock.html

I guess these weren't important issues for the "conservative" Republicans. I suppose they're just trusting in the Lord to take care of it.

George said
"People in Arizona don't fear hell -- we live in it."

That reminds me of something someone said...talking about the "hate groups" in Arizona...someone commented there are a lot of "hate groups" in Arizona...and someone else said..."Yeah, but it's a "dry hate" ".
(A take off on the fact it gets really hot, but with low humidity in AZ, and they say it's a "dry heat", so it doesn't feel so hot).

Latest news from Turkey:
"Beheadings are on the rise around the world, as militants in other causes take note of the shock and publicity the brutal tactic has generated in Iraq."
"The headless bodies of three police officers were found in Port-au-Prince early last month, and authorities said the militants had launched a terror campaign called "Operation Baghdad."

I guess that "freedom" is spreading around the world.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/COPYCAT_BEHEADINGS?SITE=JRC&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

I think Mike2212 actually did bring up an important topic, and one that the Dems MUST address. Karl Rove is not called "the architect" for nothing (and I guess, he is not called "Turd Blossom" as his nickname by Bush for nothing, either). You have to give the devil his due, he skillfully transformed what SHOULD have been a contest of TWO MEN, against TWO OTHER MEN, one political platform against the other....but, it became...BUSH, THE COWBOY DEFENDER OF THE FAITH...DEFENDER OF MOM, APPLE PIE, AND EVERYTHING AMERICAN...against the evil liberal Kerry, who became a symbol for the "HOLLYWOOD LIFESTYLE"...Abortion, and Gay Marriage...

I really don't think most people even viewed Mr. Kerry as a real, flesh and blood man...people were too busy stereotyping him as a Gay Loving, Abortion Promoting, Flip-flopping liberal, who the SwiftBoat Vets for Lies, claimed had hurt the POWs by his allegations of our troops having committed war time atrocities.

Well...on that latter point...folks here and in my real life, should know I am one of the strongest supporters of our men and women in the military possible....and I have a lot of friends that were in Nam. To a man, every one of them who were "in country" have told me that they reguarly saw atrocities and what probably constitute war crimes, committed by their fellow American soldiers. Kerry was trying to tell the truth....but the truth is often unpopular. Bush and his crowd like "all Jingoistic radio, all the time...featuring your favorite hits...such as AMERICA the BEAUTIFUL..."

You noticed that the Bush crowd didn't adopt singer Edwin Starr's song "WAR (What is it good for, absolutely nothing)" as one of their theme songs.

The DEMOs let the Republicans aggressively frame the argument....but, that's not the only problem.

Let's talk about one of the central issues...is this country officially, or even unofficially, a "(fundamentalist) Christian Nation"? If so...time for all the atheists, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists, Jews, Scientologists,Latter Day Saints, Catholics, Episcopalians, Greek orthodoxy, etc., pack up and move.

Of course, that is not my position, but I think, it is a theme that has underscored the Bush-Cheney presidential race.

Probably the height of this whole Karl Rove driven propaganda effort (and, though Karl Rove looks a lot like Heinrich Himmler...he is basically the 21st century reincarnation of Josef Goebbels) was the famous "wolves at the door" ad. I just felt they should have had Bush, dressed like a grannie, wrapped up in a comforter in bed..with a large, computer generated Wolf...banging on the door and huffing and puffing and threatening to blow the door in...

Or, perhaps they could have had the musical score from Peter and the Wolf, playing in the background .

The real man...Bush, born in Connecticut, schooled in the Eastern establishment Ivy League schools, bankrolled by the Bin Laden family, who appears to be a personal coward, and has apparently been cowardly his whole life....was never really campaigning...Rove kept Bush the "defender of the faith"...the 21st century King Richard the Lionhearted....protecting us from the Muslim hordes...out in front. The light of heaven is gently caressing the face of Bush and his robot, Stepford Wife Laura, the chain smoking girl from West Texas who
allegely ran a stop sign, and her actions apparently resulted in the death of a friend/boyfriend....
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3910b26e685a.htm
"Wednesday May 3 6:13 PM ET Report: Laura Bush in 1963 Car Wreck

Report: Laura Bush in 1963 Car Wreck
By JIM VERTUNO, Associated Press Writer

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - At 17, Laura Bush ran a stop sign and crashed into another car, killing her boyfriend who was driving it, according to an accident report released to The Associated Press on Wednesday.

Mrs. Bush is the wife of Republican presidential nominee-to-be George W. Bush (news - web sites), the Texas governor.

``It was a very tragic accident that deeply affected the families and was very painful for all involved, including the community at large,'' said her spokesman, Andrew Malcolm. ``To this day, Mrs. Bush remains unable to talk about it.'',
never was really shown to the public. These were wax dummies who were fed the right things to say.

Real humans make mistakes, and mature ones admit them. Bush, when pushed on this issue during a national television debate...obliquely danced around the only mistakes he MAY have made, was in making certain appointments...even then, he wouldn't name names.

So...I believe it was a straw man election...Kerry was the straw man...soaking up whatever qualities Karl Rove wanted to paint him with...he's a flip flopper...he hurt our POWs....he would be soft on terrorism...he doesn't understand the way the world works...and on and on and on.

They threw big, stinking, hot turds against Kerry, and tried to get as many stick as possible...and again...Karl Rove is not called the "Turd Blossom" by Bush for nothing.
http://badattitudes.com/MT/archives/000148.html
"Turd Blossom to Ride Again!
Columnist Helen Thomas, on a new book about Karl Rove called Boy Genius:

"Several years ago when (Rove) started getting accolades from political writers as the mastermind behind Bush, the president is known to have bristled.

"He once told a journalist that he did not like his aides getting 'star treatment.' So he started calling Rove 'Turd Blossom,' which refers to the so-called cowpie splat made by bovine waste when it hits the ground.

"But whatever Bush calls him, you can be sure Karl Rove will be formidable in W's 2004 race for re-election."

It was all show, all perception....

Rove pulled off a political coup...the political equivalent of Shock and Awe.

But, back to Mike2212's comment...and one which has become repeated by the Right...the notion is that there are around 50 or 60 million pissed off fundamentalists who want to shove gays back in the closet...or better yet, cast them into outer darkness or into the eternal flames of Hades based on their congenital sexual orientation...

The image created by this..to me, is like a 21st century witch hunt/ McCarthyism...with the message being...you can run but you can't hide (remember Bush saying this several times?)....we will find you liberals wherever you are....

Rove framed the debate with the eloquence of Frankenstein (i.e. "Fire Bad")
such that...Bush Good Christian/ Kerry is a Baby Killing anti-Christian, Viet Cong lover....

For now, I won't go into what is being investigated with regard to apparent electronic voting irregularities ( http://www.blackboxvoting.org )...
or the whole Halliburton investigation ongoing.

The problem, as I see it...is that the Demos tried to run a clean race, comparatively speaking...and Rove and company, tried to throw as much fecal material on the osciallating cooling device as possible, hoping to obscure the real Kerry, with all the shyte they could paint him with.

That still though, sidesteps Mike's valid point...there is a class battle...there are those who believe that the USA, like Iran, should be a monotheistic, Middle eastern controlled theocracy...they just think it should be their version of Neo-Con/Promise Keepers/Chrisitianity, and not Islam that should be the state religion.

Let's all have all kids starting their school day, mouthing the mantra...
"God Bless Mom, Dad, and President Bush. Please direct him as he goes about hunting down and killing those Godless Muslim terrorists".

This is NOT a democracy. It is a constitutional republic. If it WERE a democracy and 51 percent of the people thought we should hunt down and kill all followers of Islam worldwide...then Bush would have his Neo-Crusade mandate to wipeout the Children of Mohammed.

Gays would indeed have to hide in the closet...and then, since our black brothers and sisters are in the minority as well...should they fear about new Jim Crow laws...or Neo-Slavery Laws?

I have always been completely mystified about these claims that Bush is "likeable"....he, to me, is the most detestable, most irritating human I know of. He is the kind of "frat rat" that I despised during my undergraduate career in the early 70s.

He was a foul mouthed drunk...and is STILL foul mouthed (e.g. "keep those motherfuckers away from me..." ). There is nothing I know of in his entire life that showed him to have even a modicum of courage...

So...it was never really a real contest in the sense of one man against the other. Most people, even most Bush fans, I believe, acknowledge that Kerry won all three national televised debates (even with Bush allegedly having help and direction from the mysterious hump/bulge on his back).

This election was not on who is the smartest...who is the tallest...who proven themselves in combat...who has a sensible plan for the future...it was this bizarre combination of a high school popularity contest...combined with the rabid zeal of the anti-abortion, anti-gay, neo-Con driven religious right...and scared Americans convinced that Bushy is singlehandedly responsible for keeping that Terror Alert color code cooled down from a Bright, Fluorescent RED.

At the end of the day...was this really a referendum against the "Hollywood lifestyle"....or the "Liberal humanist agenda"...or was it just a bunch of scared people, huddling in the dark, afraid of a 6' 4" rich Arab on dialysis making videotapes?

Dunno....

"BEHEADINGS ARE ON THE RISE"....Here we head (pun intended) back to the past in the George Bush Wayback Machine....Guess that Ohio will soon see the re-emergence of the Guillotine as the preferred method for public executions....

Hey...how about burning those textbooks with that heresy about the earth orbitting the sun in them....

God don't like that science crap...

I watched a program this morning (6-7am EST) on CNN. CNN Presents: The Mission of George W. Bush

"As President Bush begins to prepare for his second term, CNN examines President Bush's first term and what we have we learned about him and his style."
It's airs again tonight at 8pm.
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/index.bush.mission.html

George, that's a bit too close to the truth.. but great!! If we could compile a list of those stupid slogans Dubya used, I think a lot of people would be surprised not only at how many there were, but how few words Dubya actually knows.

Carla said: "I like Hillary, but I hope she has enough sense of duty to the country to know she would not win as president and should stay a senator."
Jeffrey Toobin agrees with you.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/content/?041108on_onlineonly01

'Code, great post! You provide super coverage of information and worthwhile opinions.

And, Lachatte, good links to the mounting national debt (and unprecedented spending by Dubya).
Yeah, as you said, the "conservative" Republicans might be just trusting in the Lord to take care of it.
Either that, or those who don't share his priorities or approve of the way he spends so extravagantly on certain things (could be half of the population) will still be financially beholden to help pay for his decisions anyhow; so either way, I guess the neocons are covered and don't have to worry. (Grrrr.)

One of my friends said that Dubya has no need to be any more articulate or deep-thinking than the majority of his prime base of supporters who voted for him twice. An oversimplification? Probably, but with a likely element of truth. (They perceive him as THEIR guy, and their minds are made up for good, no matter what he says -- and maybe even no matter what he DOES.)

I guess Bush, feeling somewhat emboldened now, can afford to think of spending some "political capital"? Hmm, that normally would be expected to mean he can kinda do some things like he wants to for awhile....but, wait, hasn't he been doing that sort of thing for most of the past four years already?

Daniel 8:1-17 In the third year of King Belshazzar's reign, I Daniel, had a vision, after the one that had already appeared to me. In my vision I saw in the citadel of Susa in the province of Elam (located in Iraq just east of Babylon)...I looked up and there before me was a ram with two horns (Saddam Hussein), and the horns were long (Saddam once had the fourth most powerful army in the world). One of the horns was longer than the others but grew up later (his forces were divided into the regular armed forces and the Republican army. The Republican army was formed later and eventually grew into seven elite divisions that became the backbone of his forces.). I watched the ram as he charged towards the west, the north and the south. (Saddam was causing a lot of trouble in the Middle East - fighting with Israel in the west, then brutally suppressing the Kurds in the north, and finally invading and occupying Kuwait in the south, which triggered the first Gulf War.) No animal could stand up to him, and none could rescue from his power. He did as he pleased and became great. (By 1990, Iraq had become the greatest military power in the region, and was on the verge of acquiring nuclear capability. This would have enabled him to overrun Saudi Arabia and the rest of the Persian Gulf oil states.)

Suddenly a goat with a prominent horn came from the west (United States military forces under President George HW Bush), crossing the whole earth without touching the ground (US forces were either shipped across water or airlifted in from across the globe). He came towards the two-horned ram (Saddam's forces) they had seen standing by the canal (the straights of Shatt Al Arab, an important oil-producing region shared by Iraq and Kuwait, and crucial in the conflict. Kuwait was later found to have been slant drilling for Iraqi oil.) and charged at him in great rage. I saw him attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering his two horns. (the air war that proceeded ground action in the Gulf War shattered and demoralized the dug-in Iraqi forces, both the regular army and the Republican Guard.) The ram was powerless to stand against him, the goat knocked him to the ground and trampled on him, and none could rescue the ram from his power. (US ground forces then rolled right over Saddam's forces. Other Arab nations in the region were either neutral in the conflict or openly supportive of US military intervention.) The goat became very great, but at the height of his power his large horn was broken off. (After the War American prestige and power in the region soared. Yet in spite of world-wide acclaim and a job approval rate of over 90%, George WH Bush nevertheless lost the presidency a year later, and was no longer commander-in-chief of the most powerful military machine the world had ever seen.) And in its place four prominent horns grew up towards the four winds of heaven. (Having retired from politics, his power and reputation was now in the hands of his four sons: George, John (aka “Jeb”), Neil & Marvin. It was now up to them to redeem the family’s name.) Out of one of them (that is, from one of his four sons) came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. (George W bush started out failing at everything and spent most of his adult life drinking. He had no power to speak of – so his horn was small. Then at the age of 48 he was suddenly elected governor of the southern state of Texas. Then he gained more power when he was appointed to the presidency, and moved east to Washington DC to assume the office. Now he's sent American forces off to conquer or ‘democratize’ the Middle East, which is known in the Bible as 'beautiful land'.) It grew until it reached the host of heaven and it threw some of the starry hosts down to earth and trampled on them. (Here we have a picture of an arrogant leader whose great power has gone completely to his head. He even challenges the authority of heaven by falsely pretending to be on some divine mission from God.) It set itself up as great as the Prince of the host; (Beginning with 'Operation Infinite Justice', Bush pretends that his own violent and pre-emptive version of justice is equal to the justice of a patient and merciful God) it took away the place of daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low. (The United States has invaded or destroyed numerous Mosques in the pursuit of fundamentalist Moslem ‘terrorists’. It has also proclaimed that any Islamic state offering them sanctuary will be attacked.). The heavenly host was delivered up (many innocent civilians are being slaughtered by American forces - over 100,000 at last count - and delivered up as angels before God), and the little horn (George W Bush) raised itself impiously against the regular offering and cast true religion to the ground; (though he claims to be religious, a Christian, a man of peace fighting against forces of evil, just the opposite is the case. He is a violent and profane man consumed by a lust for power; he persecutes and murders the poor to increase the profits of the rich, ie for oil.) It succeeded in all he did, and truth was thrown to the ground (for a short time his 'war against terrorism' will be very successful, in that he will win every military battle. He will fool a lot of people with his lies about WMDs, even lie himself into getting re-elected, and pretend that he is fighting for freedom and democracy rather than oil, money and power ).

Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled? -....." He said to me, "It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated." (The ‘war on terrorism’ will last about six and a half years, causing an unbelievable amount death and destruction. Then Bush/the Antichrist will be removed by God and peace restored to the Middle East)....While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. (Jesus, the son of God) And I heard a man's voice calling, "Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision." As he came near the place I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. "Son of man," he said to me, "understand that the vision concerns the time of the end." (This vision is about the last days - the time of the Apocalypse and the battle of Armageddon.)

I don't know about your connecting Dubya or the U.S. to the dots of that many prophecies, but it would be difficult not to concur with your statements about how:
"he will. . . pretend that he is fighting for freedom and democracy rather than oil, money and power."
"...though he claims to be religious, a Christian, a man of peace fighting against forces of evil, just the opposite is the case. He is a violent and profane man consumed by a lust for power; he persecutes . . .

I'll bet you've got some real winners there; those probably hit the target dead center.

now kids, the bible isn't real. it's make believe.

Geez, it'll BE 2008 before you guys let this thing die.

raoul -- The antichrist is supposed to be embraced by the world (Hint: That's not Bush)

Regarding: "The Bible isn't real. it's make believe."

[Devils's Advocate checkpoint now activated.]
Spiritual matters are beyond verification or refutation.
If the Bible cannot be disproven (or proven), then its potential veracity is up to each individual to decide.

"The antichrist is supposed to be embraced by the world (Hint: That's not Bush)"

Ver-r-r-y good point.

Yeah I know, DR. But if I said that tomatoes are god, then that can't be disproven either.

The question is.. where did the idea that that's a credible idea come from? Did someone accidentily place it in the Non-fiction section?

"But if I said that tomatoes are god, then that can't be disproven either."

Well, several things here.
First, we may want to see if we could agree on what 'god' or 'godly' would mean to us.
If 'God' (it/he/she) connotes a powerful, though not necessarily visible, being -- well, that would be more than something having just a spiritual (non-material, ethereal, other-worldly) feature associated with it -- it would possess some degree of force of energy.

A tomato (a physical substance) cannot be proven not to have a spiritual dimension associated with it. But, for the sake of argument, if we were to ask how can it be known that tomatoes aren't God, it would be practical to consider whether tomatoes have demonstrated any otherwise unaccounted-for power; and since they don't, it may be safe to say that tomatoes do not fit the typical profile for what we would expect from them if they were divine.

Okay, like I said, tomatoes can't be proven not to have an inherent non-physical dimension to them as long as we allow for the possible existence of a spiritual essence to exist in parallel with the known (material) universe.
It likewise cannot be disproven that there may be a spiritual domain or a spiritual entitity exisiting outside our known universe which could have material impact on our universe.
Our scientific laws are based only on what we know about our physical universe.

"The question is.. where did the idea that that's a credible idea come from?"

Beliefs about mysticism and the supernatural have persisted for centuries. This is a fascinating topic.

Taking it a step further: Most people are afraid of what they call ghosts -- aren't those usually thought of as non-material beings possessing the potential for power? (The key is "thought of", and not necessarily provable. But ghosts are certainly popular in stories and the theater.)

The Bible speaks of a case where an occultist was able to conjure up an image of a person who was deceased. That ability was attributed to a power granted by a sinister force.
People may choose to believe that or not. Some do not think evil (per se) exists at all.

Even today, some feats of magic have not been explained by scientists (cynics may add "not yet", and they'd be correct).
Objective (material) truth vs. mysticism -- this is quite a topic.
But I really don't think we (the membership) want to go there.

Again, what is "credible" for one person may not be so for another, so we just have to let it rest. Those who want to put "faith" in hoped-for things not yet seen or proven -- such as believing the Bible is God's Word -- should actually not be belittled since this involves the issue of spiritual matters (divinely-revealed knowledge?) that cannot be proven or disproven.

Hope this helps.
(If not, I'm sure you'll let me know.)

typo: entitity = entity