It's the big night...Bush v. Kerry.
The tally is ongoing...

Maybe some humans from a future where money and greed are abolished will time travel back and mind wipe the winner and have him disband all the corrupt organizations and corporations...

Hey, it could happen.

Bush will win because life is unfair (and you cannot trust the system).

Neither choice is good. Sad really.

Why can't you trust the voting system?

i second that zanezann!

they need to use popular vote not electoral (which to me is so dated)

I don't care as much who wins as much as I care that Congress & the presidential seat are split. If Bush wins, I would like to have a democratic congress.

sherminator you hit the nail on the head man, gotta keep them in check!

"If God had meant us to vote, He would have given us candidates." (I don't know who said that.)

Just once in my life I'd like to feel free to vote for someone I'm genuinely enthusiastic about. In a battleground state, I could not in good conscience vote for a third party, though that would have been my preference.

"If God had meant us to vote, He would have given us candidates."

I LIKE it!

It's not necessarily the voting system we don't trust--it's the Republicans who run the system and count the votes that we don't trust (paper trail....paper trail....yes, precious, it likes paper trail). Just kidding, looks like a very longgggg night down here in Florida. And there are many many absentee votes to count. Love those kids--our polls closed at 7 pm, 3 hours ago. Students at the University of Miami are still waiting to vote...and they say they won't leave until they do. Incredible!!!!

I'm glad they're standing out there refusing to leave until they vote. That's awesome. Of course, if they can't, then it's still tough shit because they've known for the last 4 years what time the polls close. But still.. I hope they let them vote. For a turnout this big, they ought to bend the rules for closing time.

They HAVE to let them vote, Sherm, as long as they get in the line by 7 pm--a news story a little while ago said that about half the polling places in Miami-Dade are still open because people arrived by the deadline. So don't expect our results to be complete for quite a while. And like I said, we had a massive number of absentee ballots mailed in; it will take a couple of days to count them all, I think.

it's not the republicans, it's all the power hungry people on BOTH SIDES. as long as we as a people see this as an us VS them there will never be any working together.

autodidact why can't you vote for third party? if you like them and you feel they are the best for the job it should be easy. If we vote for someone we don't believe in then we'll never be happy. maybe it's the human desire to back a winner.

"They HAVE to let them vote, Sherm, as long as they get in the line by 7 pm..."

Ah ok. I wasn't sure about that. I remember last year when people complained about the polls closing early. I guess those people didn't even show up until closing time. Thanks, shadowmom.

I heard a democrat pundant state that in 2000 florida had all the absentee ballots (except the military ones) counted on election night. he went on to say "they're worse than they were four years ago and they had four years to fix it."

I called my mom this morning and joked askomg her if she figured out how to punch a hole in a piece of paper. she said that the people who have trouble with those ballots will have trouble with any ballot.

Hey..Fox News is predicting Bush to win with 582 1/2 electoral votes!!

I think it's pretty obvious that if the butterfly ballots confused you that much, that pretty much anything will confuse you.

Whaddyaknow..I picked some crazy large number as a joke....in reality I didn't realize the total electoral votes is 538. We always hear 270 and most people stop counting.

I have a stomach ache.

I wouldn't worry yet, carla. Although the FL counties look like they're favoring Bush.

CA is 55 votes and that's Kerry all the way. I'm not sure what WA and OR are supposed to do.

worked an 11 hour day at one job, made it to the polls 18 minutes before they closed. going to get a few hours before going to my second job. I'm pretty sure I have said this before but I like to repeat myself. come january 1 of 2 men will be sitting in the white house congratulating himself on his future retirement package. then he will pick up hosing the us citizens for another 4 years just as his predecessor did and it's a pretty fair bet the average person won't be able to tell a difference in how the job is being handled. can't say as I have any real interest in staying up to see who that's gonna be.


meet the new boss, same as the old boss...

autodidact, sadly you hit the nail on the head. Too many folks I talked to today, not so much voted FOR a candidate, but AGAINST one.

It's pretty sad that our presidential candidates are so both equally unliked that the election will be a photo finish.

My philosophy on big politics (and forgive me if this gets graphic) is thus:
You know you're going to get f**ked in the @ss by both of them, you just vote for the one whom you feel will lube you up before, & kiss you when it's all done.

Kerry & Bush are the same crooked, unqualified sh!ts. Some choice, sh!t A or sh!t B. Either choice is still sh!t & it STINKS!

Back to the NBA. Can't stand to watch the news outlets call states with 1% of the precints reporting.

bah, NBA. Bring back hockey.. !

sherm, washington and oregon will go Kerry. I live in Oregon and Salem and Portland have the majority of our voters and those two cities are full of tree hugging liberals who want to destroy our lumber industry to save a few birds and fish. my two cents.

lol.. tree hugging liberals are the worst kind. At least they're tree hugging in a pretty place.

So Kerry will probably win CA, OR, and WA. That will put him over the top. George will have to depend on FL and OH probably.

They just projected him to win CA. It's a lot closer now.

haha. yeah, pretty when it's not raining.

Miami-Dade and Broward are both going for Kerry so far with about 80% of the precincts voting. Broward has gone for Kerry by about 66%, I think. The damn figures come and go so fast it's hard to keep up with them. But we're going to be Kerry here it looks like. I'm crossing my fingers, cause California and Florida can't hurt!!

Btw, they had pictures of the butterfly ballot in the newspaper here. That was the most asinine thing I ever saw. The supervisor of elections in Palm Beach replaced it with a "bullet" ballot--and Palm Beach fired her ass. Good riddance. A lot of elderly Jewish people voted the wrong way that day. And it was a real dip-shit ballot. Remember KISS?

And do I expect a real big difference in January? No, I expect a difference. And for now it's enough. Baby steps. You can't change the world in a day. I registered as a Democrat, but make no mistake--when I vote for the President, I don't care what color his coattails are. I just happen to like the Democratic platform better than the Republican. If Kerry doesn't make changes, I'll vote him out in 2008. That's a no-brainer, isn't it?

I'm a tree-hugging liberal; so what? If we don't hug a few of those trees, Dubya will cut them down, to "preserve our forests."

just follow the arrows. that's what my 14 year old daughter said when she saw the butterfly ballot on tv. can't be any simpler.

Yeah, No Tree Left Behind is George's motto.
Trees purify the air.
I love trees.

here in oregon schools and the majority of jobs in the rural area is dependant on timber. it is a resouce that is easy maintained when properly managed. the tree hugging liberals want to cut off ALL logging. maybe we can go back to building our homes out of stones.

trees, like any crop, needs to be managed not cut off. when it's your livlihood you tend to think differently then when you live in a major urban area

http://www.asktog.com/columns/042ButterflyBallot.html
Here's the infamous ballot. Remember a lot of these people were older, and never saw a ballot like this. And from I read at the time, this is NOT the same as the sample ballot that was mailed out. So what's wrong with bubbling in? It makes it very simple, everybody knows how to do it, and it's hard to make a mistake, but if you do it can usually be fixed. Not on this. And like I said--they fired her. I guess the voters there had had enough, don't you?

We need to save forests. It brings oxygen to the world. Helps with global warming.
You can't cut old forests.

Comp, my house is made out of stone. What's your point? Let the logging companies do whatever they want?

I still don't see the problem. just follow the arrows. it tells you where to punch. what's so hard about that??

What's wrong with brick -- isn't that better for housing?

agreed carla. but you don't overreact and destroy an entire economy. I won't let the logging companies do whatever they want. we won't have any trees then. there's more than enough forrests to provide all of our lumber needs.

Are you trying to tell us....(gasp)....logging companies have a ... a ... conscience? How democratic of them. But I don't believe it for a minute. And neither should you, or one day you'll wake up and there won't be any more trees. Didn't you ever see the movie "Silent Running?" Save the trees....save the trees....

We should stop encouraging people to use lumber as building material. And I'm sick of rampant suburban growth with all that lumber.
The rust belt had to find a different economy. So should loggers.

Quandry: Paper or Plastic? Do I choose to destroy the ozone or the spotted owl? Nuke the Whales!

I have a major problem with deforestation, pollution, etc.

I'm not a tree hugging liberal. I guess the line has to be drawn somewhere. I'm not going to chain myself to a tree for no reason. It's more important to protect the rain forests anyway. Not the trees in the Northwest.

No the logging companies need oversight. like ANY business they are out for the money. here in Oregon, hurting the lumber industry has caused massive depression in many areas. northern california as well. over a few birds. These tree hugging, city dwelling liberals who's only contact with trees are when they walk through the local park or buy a tablet of paper at walmat doesn't see this. we have many beautiful areas I love walking through. most people here who's livlihood depends on lumber are hunters, fishermen, and outdoorsment in more ways then most urban dwellers even dream of. don't think for a minute they would support killing off the forrests

we have a bumber sticker here that's very popular that says.... "save a logger, eat an owl..."

clear cutting is no longer allowed here

At least we have Obama. At least that jerkoff Phil Crane is losing.

obama is cool. I like him. I look forward to better things from that guy

They called FL for Bush.
Oh my stomach.

I like that bumper sticker.

I wasn't trying to say they were killing all the trees there. Just that if I were going to save trees, it would be rainforest trees.

pepto bismol can help

CNN hasn't projected it yet though.
ABC has.

I'm watching cnn and they just said the Kerry camp is secretly giving up on Florida but they aren't calling it

The northwest was/is a rainforest. The U.S. has unfortunatley cut down most of its rainforest.

Rainforests can't grow in a non-tropical region. The northwest has a lot of trees, but it's not a rain forest by any stretch.

yes it is Sherm. Carla is right. Technically from a geological standpoint it's called a temporate rainforrest.

FOX is calling Florida for Bush, surprise.

Oregon still has plenty of forrest left and will have for all time with proper management. there is a measure on the oregon ballot this election about just that issue

I'm going to watch the rest of this in bed, hugging a pillow in lieu of a tree.
*sigh*

Then I wouldn't save a temporate rainforest. Just a tropical one =) The one's that are responsible for 99% of our oxygen.

ohio looks very Bushy right now.

It's rigged

comp--what happens when you deforest a region? Look at the pictures of Haiti after the hurricane. Blame it on the massive tree-killing that took place there. The soil had no anchor, nothing to hold on to, so mud slides killed a lot of those people. Same thing happens in Puerto Rico and points south. Leave the trees alone. That's why they have tree farms now.

Carla, don't give up on Florida yet. 95 to 97% of precincts reporting, but there were 97,000 absentee ballots in Dade alone. I voted absentee and a lot of Democrats I know did, too, because we don't trust the computers that much. Wait and see....I make no promises, but news organizations are following the trend of education. They are getting more stupid every year. Being first is more important than being right. And Fox still sucks.

It's not rigged. Jesus.

You're right about Florida. Tons of absentee ballots. How often do mud slides occur in the northwest?

Shadowmom I agree. you can't deforrest a region and that's the message lumber companies have finally gotten. but the urban environmentalists are going steps further. they're trying to stop logging all together. that's disasterous and wrong.

tree farms are necessary in a tiny island like puerto Rico but not necessary here in the US. managable forrests can do the same thing.

foxnews.com still hasn't given Kerry california.

how would people in Florida like it if people out here like me tried to tell you guys how to manage the everglades without knowing how it'll impact the local economy?? we wouldn't know what we're talking about except for some statistics to back us. same thing is happening here from people all around the country and in the cities who have no idea how the hell people here live.

And this whole time I thought a new President was voted for.. every year, not every 4 years... Wow, that just makes this even worse.

Where are you from?

It doesn't make it worse. It's fine how it is.

Comp--if you can't see the global impact instead of the regional economic impact--I don't know what to say to you. People are always telling us what to do with the Everglades. Tooth and nail we fight to preserve it, because it is unique--there's no other national preserve like it. But every year we lose a little more to developers, who pay a little more to their politician of choice. This isn't a battle against just the lumber companies--it's against ALL the corporations who would take every inch of this planet and develop it or use it one way or another. And if we lose, we will never get another chance. Don't ask us to choose between a company and a forest, or a few hundred or even a few thousand lumberjacks and losing our forests. It's not even a choice.

And now--I have never been so irritated with the state of Florida, and the people who live here as I am right now. As a famous person once said, "You can fool some of the people all of the time and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." And he also said, "There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again."
Well, dammit you idiots in Florida, you did.

I can see the global impact. I just don't believe it's as serious as you think it is. The people have spoken.

I've just watched obama in an interview. I can support him as president. bet he'll run in a few years.

all I can say is that Kerry wins I'll support him as my president. if Bush wins I'll support him as my president. that's democracy. we vote for who we think is best then we ACCEPT what the majority selects and work together. anything short of that is NOT democracy.

What is the global impact of deforesting the northwest?

Tree's don't produce as much of our oxygen as liberals would like us to believe. Most of it comes from algae from the ocean. Trees are nice, but let's be reasonable, let's find some middle ground eh? Otherwise I'm going to have to start marching around with a sign that says "Down with Trees"

lol =)

You may be right, but without trees, we'd still be dead. Still, all the trees in the world have a trivial influence compared to the dense tropical rainforests in brazil, africa, and what's left of the destroyed everglades.

the northwest is not being deforrested anylonger. that's been stopped

Then I guess there's no global impact

I still have hope for Ohio, but it's just a hope. I cannot believe the absolute stupidity of people who voted for Bush. It just goes to show the educational system has completely gone to shit, and politicians are obviously quite happy to keep it that way. And don't give me any grief for that--this president's educational plan is lies and empty promises, teaching our children to take stupid tests instead of teaching them what they need to know to survive in the world---the WORLD--not their community, not their state, not even their country--their WORLD. This jerk prefers to let the private sector take over the education of our children. That's a crock of shit. And so is he. It's more than my stomach that hurts tonight, Carla, I'm absolutely ashamed.
I had faith that all the people who were cheated last time in Florida could take that conservative right bunch of thugs. I guess not. In the morning when I wake up, if somehow the absentee ballots pull us out of this hole we're in, I'll be quite happy to apologize. But I think the central and northern parts of Florida have shown their true colors, and they leave me feeling disgusted.

The liberal-filled big cities in the northeast and the west still don't have enough people to control the country for everyone else. Too bad for them. New York (my former home), LA, and Miami can all eat it.

well oregon just went for Kerry

I cannot believe the absolute stupidity of people who voted for Bush.

shadowmom those people feel the same way about you and those who agree with you. this is why this country can't work together

Yeah. Michigan looks like it's leaning toward Kerry. That's 17 votes..

Comp, if you are suggesting I have to support a president who wages war for oil, destroys our environment for corporations, has a kinship with mercury, and spends more money on a foreign country than on education here, pardon me, but that's bullshit. He's a moron, and worse he's a religious moron. Separation of state, church, and school is a wonderful thing. Keep your church out of my government, and out of my school, and we can probably co-exist. Try to tell me what faith I have to believe, or force-feed it to my child, and we will have war. Try to tell me a corporation or even an industry is more important than the environment we all share and we will have war. Try to tell me you're looking for terrorists in Iraq, or Osama in Afghanistan, and I say you are a liar. And to look this entire country in the eye and tell them a flat out lie, and they still vote for you-----inconceivable. And yet there it is, it's happening, isn't it?
If the rest of the world thought we were stupid before, I think we are in the political process of confirming their belief.

lol

Maybe you're exaggerating everything.

religion is being kept out of school. There are those that won't even say the pledge of allegiance anymore. The destructive wave of political correctness that is ravaging culture in this country has not slowed under Bush.

this is a democracy. if you want people who support Bush to accept a Kerry pesidency then those who support Kerry need to accept a Bush presidency. doesn't mean we have to agree with him just means we have to work for a common good. if we can't do that then we really don't believe in democracy. unless it's our way of course

And please---excuse me if you don't agree with me. If you voted for Dubya, I don't think the world will end. I don't THINK it will. But I also don't think by a long shot it will be better in four years than it is now.
Comp, bud, this is Miami, please don't try to sell me the depressed area shit. This area where I live right now is STILL recovering from Andrew. Sorta like oh a war zone...New businesses didn't want to come here, people left and moved up north and left their houses empty and falling down. The only economy we had was the tourist dollar. Tough. People don't really pay to see houses leveled to their foundations. But you adjust, you know?

Let me tell you a story that happened in Fla. Where my home is, there are three main sources of income, you can farm, you can fish, or you can work the timber industry.

I worked the timber industry. At one time I worked in a plant making plywood. The company that ran the place also had a 2x4 mill there. Cores from the lathing process made 2 2x4 from the waste.

The timber company didn't plan for a future. It was too expensive to invest in the communities future and the workers that depended on them for a job. They cut but did not plant replacements. After 15 years, there were no trees to cut. They pulled up stakes and left, leaving behind those that worked there to do without. Closed the plant and the area suffered from a lack of jobs for quite some time.

The company that did this was a well known company. Gerogia Pacific...

and thats bush's fault ?

No, Sherm, it's not. You don't understand---in Florida, if you go to a school that doesn't meet their educationa requirements, you can send your child to a private school--and the state pays for it. BUT---most private schools are parochial-----so they get a healthy dose of religion with their ABCs.

wet1 so true. that's been the problem. I worked in a mill out west. but here we have more forrests and the lumber companies don't do those things any longer. in general that is. there are still isolated instances.

educationa=educational. It's late, I'm tired, and I'm really depressed. So sue me.

I have heard about that and have mixed feelings. On one hand, I feel basically what you do. But on the other hand you can send your kid to a private school, if you wish, and they'll pay for it.

If it makes you feel any better, I've separated myself 100% from religion of any kind, and I went to catholic school for several years. People from my school said that you might go in a christian, but you'll come out an atheist.

No burner, this has nothing to do with Bush. It has to do with those that are tree huggers (as folks here have called them) and what happens when they are totally ignored.

im from oregon and i know what the tree huggers have done to the forest industy

Lets see here, we have sneaky Hollywood media bosses, obese filmmakers, has-been rock stars, liberal biased media, Stalinist antiwar protesters, militant gays, antichristian ACLU, NAACP haters, nambla perverts, even the paranoid delusions and nazi conspiracies from the likes of Code and leflaw, all working to oust George W. Bush and still the people have spoken and it looks like another 4 years for the prez. And what does that mean for this site? More ranting, irrational posts, nazi references, megalomania, everything but what the mission statement is. music! This site like the leaders of the democratic party would be wise to seek new leadership.

burner where in oregon?? I'm in Coos Bay

good point

I was excited to vote for the democratic candidate.. until they announced it was going to be Kerry. You're also right about this website. I gave up on that months ago. It's helpless. If you want to boycott the RIAA find another site.

And I think it says something about people here that Bush will win in spite of all the organizations you mentioned. Most people don't fall for it. Not that Bush is "good" by any stretch..

gaston up by hillsboro i went to school in brookings

love Brookings. I have a store in Reedsport. only the rain depresses me

i lived most of my life on the coast im glad to be away from it only takes me about an hour to get to seaside if i want to

That's all we need is this Codewarrior coming here every 5 seconds with his nonsensical Nazi witch hunts for the next 4 years geeez. Let's find leadership here who really know how to free the music!!!


Don't hate me GopSweetie because I'm Beautiful!!

hopefully we can get back on the mission now that the political distractions are over (well soon to be) and we can find other things to argue about lol

Codewarrior does a fine job.

So we’re not looking for terrorists in Iraq or Afghanistan?!?!? Shadowmom you are what’s wrong with this country. Your one sided rants ridiculing people who vote for someone THEY believe in is exactly what is wrong. You lowlife self righteous shit for brains. I’ll have you know I have already been to Iraq and returned and done 7 months in Afghanistan before being wounded and sent home. You make my physically ill. I HAD to register just for this thread. I will GLADLY volunteer to go right back to Afghanistan or Iraq when I am medically cleared. Why? BECAUSE I SIGNED UP FOR IT! I am a SOLDIER! Not a know nothing bitchy old hag who has never even CONSIDERED picking up arms to fight for their country and what they believe in. Consider suicide ShadowMom. If you’re that miserable it’s your only real option. I doubt you’ll be missed.

codewarrior is passionate about his beliefs and is a asset to our cause . i dont agree with him all the time but he is one of the smartest people here.

This thread was relatively civil...

"This site like the leaders of the democratic party would be wise to seek new leadership."

Retaining the Senete, Holding the House,
Bush for another 4 years, Daschle gone
Liberal Democratic defeats

If only we could remove these Codewarrior and leflaw from the leadership of this site get back to boycotting the RIAA, free the music, the world can be a perfect place.

Steve you are no better than her as you so say acting like that....

"If only we could remove these Codewarrior and leflaw from the leadership of this site get back to boycotting the RIAA, free the music, the world can be a perfect place."

How are we going to free the music with ashcroft in there?

Code and larry do a fine job. How long have you been posting here? 3 maybe 4 minutes? I'm not getting involved.

goodnight.

you can remove leflaw if you want. it's his site and I'm sure he'll discuss an adiquate price for you to purchase it.............. Not sure you could afford it though.............

Steve where did ShadowMom say we weren't looking for terrorists in Afghanistan or Iraq? I've scanned through the thread and must have missed it.

"Try to tell me you're looking for terrorists in Iraq, or Osama in Afghanistan, and I say you are a liar. And to look this entire country in the eye and tell them a flat out lie, and they still vote for"

Nevermind. Found it. Ouch is all I have to say.

sorry for being stupid but did hatch run in utah or what ?

"sorry for being stupid but did hatch run in utah or what ?"

Not this time around

burner....

Paranoid irrational megalomaniacs just because they're smart don't make them good leaders. Code's idiol Hitler is a great example of that. This site needs new passion, new vision and Code, ShadowMom, Carla, and leflaw
have made sure to exclude those with such zeal. This site needs an overhaul and it starts at the very top.....

"Steve you are no better than her as you so say acting like that...."

Agreed Dave. You have to admit she sort of had that coming though. Nevertheless I still agree. BUT people who have actually been to Iraq or Afghanistan are the only real judges of what we're doing over there. Armchair generals or people who are miffed at the outcome of an election really have no room to talk. She's passionate about her politics and she has that right. But for a soldier who has been there and been shot at to read that I understand perfectly where he's coming from.

"She's passionate about her politics and she has that right. But for a soldier who has been there and been shot at to read that I understand perfectly where he's coming from."

Right, but your certainly not going to change her mind talking like that....and wouldn't that be the point?

NBC and fox are calling Ohio for bush...and ABC is still holding off until provisional ballots are included...so it could be a while before we actually know for sure

Ok, I'm not going to bed, but I'm still not getting involved.

In OH, Bush is winning by 100 VOTES!

With over 1/4 million left... Not over..

"Right, but your certainly not going to change her mind talking like that....and wouldn't that be the point?"

Granted Dave. We don't know what Steve went through or how he was wounded. You have to admit that he was justified in his anger. Maybe he could have voiced it differently but then again. So could she. I was in the first Gulf War and have some idea what he may have went through. Maybe that's where I can see his anger more so than someone else. No worries.

Why has Fox News been the only network to call Ohio for Bush?

SteveCapri

Amen.......And I commend your serving in our brave army. We can't thank you and your conrades enough. This Shadowmom and her kind have had the run of this site for much to long. You statements are well taken and truly a breath of fresh air.........You're my hero!!!

Oh well....I'm done thinking about this for now...back to life...Ohio may well turn into this years legal battle...bah..

I’m actually so mad right now I’m in tears. This may be an internet chat board but ShadowMom is an American (By residence only) and for any American to make an accusation like that is inexcusable.

ShadowMom have you ever served your country in the Armed Forces? Have you seen a friend go down from a rocket attack THE DAY BEFORE he was to go home while sitting in a phone bank making travel arrangements for a surprise cruise with his wife??? No you haven’t. Have you seen a crew carry in a true patriot like Pat Tillman who gave up millions of dollars in the NFL to serve his country WHILE ON PATROL actively looking for the enemy? No, of course you haven’t. Have you had an AK-47 round pass through your belly while a grenade sends shrapnel through your back while on patrol looking for the enemy in Afghanistan? NO OF COURSE!!! You HAVEN’T!!!

Some people may think I was out of line with my previous post. After having a minute to reflect on so many people I have fought side by side with serving their country HONORABLY I have come to the conclusion that I was dead on with my comments. No matter WHO is elected president I will support and defend this country with my life because that is what I signed up to do. If it’s Kerry than so be it. If it’s Bush than so be it.

See this is the problem with this world we have the likes of Codewarrior and leflaw running a site like this with their insane propaganda about nazis everywhere and nothing about the music while real men like
SteveCapri are on the outside looking in.....I vote for SteveCapri to head up new leadership for this website. A hero who knows how to get things done.Not this wishy washy Liberal leadership we have now.

And Feldmen this is for you!!! We should have taken Shakespeare's advice....

GOPSweetie04 - what about ashcroft????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

hahahahaha

GOPSweetie. Thank you. Truly thank you. I wouldn't want this site. I haven't read anything from Codewarrior or Leflaw so I do not know where they're coming from. I'll leave that to your judgement. This was my first time on this site. And last.

Gopsweetie comes onto MY website and bad mouths me?


I think I will give him/her/it a lesson it will never forget. In 60 minutes. You got one hour to make amends, asshole, or I will show you another side of life.

You wanna call me out on my site? I'll be your huckleberry. I can get 100 people to track you down in 12 hours. Wanna bet?

You think you can change this site from the "top"? I think maybe I will change this site from the bottom, which of course is where you are.

Come on, make my day, to coin a phrase. Ever meet an armed liberal?

lol ok can't leave yet...this just got good

"This site, like the leaders of the Democratic party, would be wise to seek new leadership."

"Good point.
And you're right about this website. I gave up on that months ago. It's helpless. If you want to boycott the RIAA, find another site."

"Hopefully, we can get back on the mission now that the political distractions are over (well, soon to be)..."

Where there's life, there's hope.

As long as the music industry uses OUR government to do it's bidding, this site will, must... have some political undertones. Tell the big 5 to stay away from washington...and we will too!

leflaw is this what you and your website all about?? When your leadership is under attack you come out with threats of violence?? threatening to attack women?? leflaw being a lawyer I'd think you'd know better. My guess is you're nothing the man SteveCapri is. Your only purpose in life to to bully people in court. So be it. We all have to be something in life. You choose to be a "shyster" lawyer. But please with the threats. Step down from this site leflaw it would help the cause without you.

Give me your phone number sweetie. Its time we met, don't you think?

Wow Leflaw. I've read this site for quite some time and don't see things the way you do but I would stoop that low if someone didn't agree with me. Do you always threaten those who don't agree with you?

Sorry my post should have said

I wouldn't stoop that low

No, I usually throw them out immediately when they threaten another user or subscriber. Tonite I am in a good mood, so I played with my food a bit longer.

I've disagreed with him and he never threatened me. But I never told him to leave and I never called him names.

Maybe I missed it. Where did she threaten you? Sherm are you saying that if someone called you names that would set you off enough to physically threaten them? We're supposed to be adults. Leflaw you're an attorney correct? Does your state bar condone physical threats towards other people? I hope not.

see?

He was just fucking around. Chill out. I always give ppl shit here, and I take flak for it by people who just don't get it. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Oh well

goodnight for real.

Night, sherm.

See what? The only thing I see is a lawyer who has gone off the deep end and seriously lost his temper. Sherm if he was just screwing around I think he should say so before Sweetie looks up the whois on this site and forwards it and his threats to his state bar. I'm still in a bit of shock over some of the things I've read in this thread. ShadowMom being very into this election, SteveCapri standing in with his fourteen cents, GOPSweetie going after Leflaw verbally and Leflaw now threatening physical violence.

I always though that the two things you should never discuss in politics is religion or politics. Leflaw when the post election lawsuits are over are you going to point this site back in the right direction?

yeah i'll be back for some abuse tomorrow . take care all

"See what? The only thing I see is a lawyer who has gone off the deep end and seriously lost his temper. Sherm, if he was just screwing around I think he should say so before Sweetie looks up the who is on this site and forwards it and his threats to his state bar."

I have wondered if there is case precedent about whether freedom of speech on a chatboard has legal limits (i.e., threatening physical violence).

You know I've been coming to this page for sometime and I used to love the whole idea of confronting the RIAA. But I have to say that I also think this site has lost it's way and these two Code and Leflaw are to blame. I understand that politics play a part in all this but come on.... Threats? Nazi's?AntiAmericanism? What does all this have to do with Boycotting the RIAA and you Leflaw if you are a lawyer should be ashamed. If you are on the side of music filesharers everywhere maybe I should rethink my stance on the whole thing. Turn this site around or leave it up to those who can do a better job!!!!!

YOU ALL MISS THE POINT.

Fuck anonymous cowards. I like face to face. I will meet anybody anywhere. My chin is stuck way out. You all know where I am. You wanna badmouth or threaten me, my site and my subscribers, here? No way. I don't tolerate problem children. Go away. Fuck off. I am merciless with some putz who comes onto a website anonymously with venom and tries to tell the owners what to do. Only a moron would expect anything other then venom in return.

What ought to surprise you trolls is how long i can hold a grudge, and to what extent I will go to protect this site and its subscribers. Your best strategy after you attack me is to turn around and walk out. Otherwise, at a certain point, I will decide to make an example out of you. Just for the record.

Now the shrapnelbrain who decided to sign on to this site for the first time tonite just to bad mouth me and another subscriber ought to walk out of this bar peacfully.

I am Wyatt Earp here, not you. Be Governed accordingly.

PS:

as far as fair and balanced, you will find that I posted plenty of anti-Kerry news here myself, regardless of my own political leanings, which are independent. However, I have come to the conclusion that I never want to go to a party or a book burning with Anne Coulter or Newt Gingrich, Zell Miller, Trent Lott, Hilary Rosen or Fidel Castro ( who was in fact a lawyer).

Go to politicalcompass.org and learn how much you don't know about the ridiculousness of judging people politically, and the uselessness of the terms liberal and conservative, right or left.

Its really a burden to be intellectually curious, well read and able to speak and write clearly. You have to educate a lot of assholes.

Jeesh.


Here we go again.

Ok Mister FightTheRIAAnow .


1. Please state if you are referring to Dmusic.com or Boycott-riaa.com or Gnutella.com., which all share the same newsfeeds.

2. Please explain what you think the mission statement is for the above named sites.

Oh, you thought it was all one site. Oh. Nobody told you. Oh. You didn't understand. Oh, you want to know where the lavatory is, and how to get the valet to get your car so you can leave and go home to your sick mother.

"You know I've been coming to this page for sometime"


and you just signed up 10 minutes ago.

Here is my answer to your physical violence accusation:

Pennsylvania law gives a homeowner the right to defend his home from intruders at night. It is assumed that any stalker or intruder who comes at night is there to do violence, and the landowner is allowed to respond accordingly.

It is not a good idea to accost a homeowner at home at night in his own home.
Sort of like an analogy to not attacking a website owner on his own website. He is allowed to have his way with you. Isn't that a good policy?

Talk about acid reflux. urp.
Last Sunday's 60 Minutes had a piece on the type of vehicles our troops are forced to use -- non-armored, using plywood and sandbags for makeshift reinforcement. And even the steel plating they are trying to use now doesn't cover the bottom. Way to support the troops. It made me sick.
Soldier, thank you for sacrificing. We who protest this president and his policies also believe we are serving this country.

It's the Supreme Court and the Justice Department we have to be worried about with a Bush second term.

BTW folks, we have a new email address validator, hence tonite's multiple registrations and posts by the same person who wouldn't validate their email. Oh well. It's tough dealing with some types on the internet.

So leflaw not only do you threaten women, steal passwords, but you're also an intellectual bully as well? I have children leflaw and I don't take threats lightly. I have saved these threads and if you follow through with your irrational behavior, I will make sure to defend myself with the proper authorities. As for those who have come to this site and not posted before and have done so now, maybe it's your deplorable behavior leflaw along with your sidekick Codewarrior that's making people act. If you both are the leadership here I'd take the advice of your subscribers and change things around. It seems the masses have spoken like tonight's election and have found "you" leflaw.....wanting

make the validator refuse free accounts like hotmail & msn too. Then the problem disappears completely.

The subscribers want leflaw to stay.
Don't speak for us.

right, sherm.

What do you want to do tonight Cheney? Same thing we do every night Bush, TRY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD! lol

I certainly want leflaw to stay.

I hate the politics on here, even though I participate. I said the site was hopeless above. I was exaggerating. It's not, and it's not like it used to be. 9/10 articles are now RIAA related.

So what's the problem then? The members of course. We all post in these threads and not the others. It ain't leflaw's fault. When I say "goodnight" I'm actually saying "I'm probably done but I always have stuff to do so I lurk 24/7"

I don't hear any complaints from subscribers, either, GovernmentOLDpartySweetasss.

I think that's Grand Old Party, Dumbass.

As for being an old party, the Republicans trace their roots back to the mid-1850s, while the Democrats say their party's earliest ancestor was a congressional caucus founded by Thomas Jefferson in 1792, which went through several forms before 1844, when it adopted the name still used today.

The Republican Party, on its official web site, points out that Grand Old Party - while certainly the accepted meaning for GOP, for many years - is not the original meaning, or even the only one.

The Republican National Committee says the acronym dates back to 1875, at which time it meant "Gallant Old Party." And in the early days of the automobile, it gained another popular, although ultimately fleeting, translation: "Get Out and Push" - the treatment early cars often needed.

Stalwarts of both Republican and Democratic party campaigns would, of course, tell you that "Get Out and Push" is the proper attitude when it comes to motivating voters.

So there's no Republican monopoly on that strain of GOP.

As for the elephant, its status as party symbol appears to be safe.

It dates back to a cartoon by legendary political cartoonist Thomas Nast, who in an 1874 issue of Harper's Weekly, depicted the Democrats as a donkey trying to scare a Republican elephant.

Win or lose, both symbols have endured.

Dang it, I gotta open my mouth here.

I been coming here a while. I have seen a lot of the stuff that goes here. It is rare that there is name calling for the most part. Only time it really comes out is with politics.

We got folks that go both ways at this site. Some bitch and gripe at the opposite for not seeing it their way. Ok, that is the way of the world. Ain't gonna be two folks that see it the same, right down the middle.

This ain't a butter up to leflaw or code but they have both been more than fair. None of you have seen this kind of reaction before to a poster. The only thing leflaw did was stick up for the site and tell the disrupter to put up or shut up.

leflaw, I don't think the threat was right to the poster. You got other means as webmaster to take care of that. If it includes me for speaking up, so be it. Somehow I don't think that will be the case but it IS at your discretion how you deal with problem children. Threating shouldn't be one of them in the sense of making it personal.

Right or wrong, that is the way I see it...

Lef, I hope you know I wasn't calling YOU a dumbass.

It's pretty much called now. All I can say is I'm relieved. I'm no fan of Bush but if Kerry made it in, we'd be doomed.

And I find it really quite amazing that Bush won, even with the huge push the media gave Kerry.

I'm sure Osama will be pleased if Bush wins. His stupid face makes a great recruiting poster for the terrorists.
And no one in the world is going to help us.

It's not called until Ohio is counted. The only way out of that is if Bush wins all that remain, but he will probably not win WI. night for real this time (for real

Flame on, I'm going back to bed.

Stealing my password and changing my name leflaw is so juvenile. If this is the idea of your threats to me I find them funny. I expected better from the leader of this website. If this is the best you have leflaw, the RIAA have nothing to worry about. Leflaw you're not the solution here anymore, you're part of the problem and even your most loyal lemmings sense something is wrong here.

I got news for you too, Sweetie, I ain't no lemming. I call it the way I see it.

Just like I mentioned it wasn't right on lefaws part, you ain't right either.

If you continue this ditribe, it will be for the best if you don't come back!

Repeat:

There will be no abusive posters on this site. You abuse someone, and I will abuse you back publicly, and will use admin tools and other measures. I will be the most abusive person on this site. I am Oliver Cromwell, and this is my protectorate. I'm the cop. And I will use more than a nightstick.
Metaphorically speaking of course.

In the past, I offered a $1,000 reward on Gnutella to obtain information about an anonymous abusive poster. I had subscribers fill out on-line litigation affidavits in another case.

Some people enjoy baiting me. I didn't know how to react at first and ignored it. Now I don't. The community generally sees it as self protection and keeping the peace. And our stats are growing, not shrinking.

As to Boycott-riaa (I am writing from DMusic.com, which shares the neews feed), it is a robot site, which runs off of Dmusic's back end. No one runs it. Any critics of boycott are talking to a robot. Its really quite funny to watch. Shows you the power of the internet. We use boycott-riaa.com to disseminate intersting copyright and independent music news, as well as anti-riaa stuff.


And Carla, feel free to call me a dumbass, just not too often.

PS:

If any one wants to seriously run Boycott-Riaa, let me know. We will gladly pay a fill or part time salary, depending on your plans.

thats "full or part time salary"...

Leflaw have you ever looked into vBulletin to let the site run itself? Except instead of feeding off of another sites newsfeeds it would put more control in the users hands.

Just a suggestion

No, but I will check it out, Thanks.

It's a forum plain and simple but very stable and would give the place a facelift.

www.Vbulletin.com is the company site.

is it possible to combine the dmusic newsfeed with vbulletin ???

Try to tell me you're looking for terrorists in Iraq, or Osama in Afghanistan, and I say you are a liar.
SteveCapri So we’re not looking for terrorists in Iraq or Afghanistan?!?!?
Thank-you for serving our country. Just because you served your country in time of war. Does not make that war right.
Osama in Iraq, his terrorist there i think not. 9-11 Osama and his people did it. Not Saddam and the Iraqi people.We went to Afghanistan with our troops first. I was all for that one. But not Iraq for their oil and a power hungry president. Who did it to show the world that he could. Steve you have to support your president when you serve your country. He is your commander in chief. But he is no longer mine, so i do not have to follow him. I will say what i think of him, and for what he doesn't do for this country. Which isn't to much. A leader must lead and not be a power hungry bully. I'm sorry you feel this way. We support our troops as does ShadowMom. It just that I would like to see no body bags, no lost limbs etc. I saw it all way back in 68 - 69 and for what. Saddam was not going anywhere. Hell to many no fly zones and such. Osama and his people are the ones we should be after. As Teddy once said, speak softly but carry a big stick. If we do not question our President then where do you think you'll be fighting next. Is it Iran, or back to Korea for part two? The people of this Republic have every right to speak out for what they believe in. Our families fought and die for it. This is not Russia or China. You may not agree with me and thats fine. But open your mind and eyes and see what is happening. As for that guy code, if people did not speak up and say what they see. It will be just like Nazi Germany. Follow the leader without question. You have eyes but you do not see, you have ears but you do not hear. Or is it just follow the leader and believe. If grammar and spelling is off it late and right now i do not care. Ohio oh my he we go again.

I'm sure it's possible. If you want to run the site independently from your other ventures I reccomend making the site stand on its own with vBulletin and let the users dictate what is posted THEN you can moderate accordingly. I've installed vbulletin many times on a variety of sites and have found it to be the most powerful of the forum scripts out there.

Back to running the dMusic feeds onto a vbulletin php script. I would have to know what script you're using for Boycott-Riaa. It looks and performs like CuteNews but not sure. I'm sure its possible to combine the two. Not certain it would work. If anything you can keep the site the way it is and implement vBulletin to take over your forum duties? I dunno. You're site, you're call. With the election almost over I'll be happy to see things go back towards copyright, IP, and RIAA/Music business stuff.

Hawk as a first Gulf War Veteran I have to disagree with you. To me what Shadowmom posted was a believe the media type blinded post that she didn't think quite through. A sort of heat of the moment type deal if you will. I found her comments offensive as well but then again this is a politics thread which is why I've kepy my keyboard closed until now.

When I joined the Army I wanted to be a "lifer" and do my 20 years like my father and grandfather before me. An unfortunate friendly fire incident halted that. I would give anything to be back in and in the fight whether its Afghanistan or Iraq. I believe that even though the initial saber rattling was complete bullshit, the fact that Sadaam is gone is a good thing. Yes it’s horrible we’re losing good people over there but that is the price you pay in war.

If Bush would have come right out and said the real reasons for going into Iraq I likely would have supported him. (Please don’t anyone give me the line about it was all for oil.) Now he is what I call in my circles the Corporate President which is the reason I didn’t vote for him this time. I hate the fact that he’ll bend over backwards to help corporations with their bottom line and screw the little guy in the process. Bottom line with Bush overall is that he got caught in a nasty lie and doesn’t deserve to represent us again. Unfortunately it looks like that will happen again though. Considering the alternatives I’m wondering who would have made us better off. The field wasn’t that impressive to me.

I was in Baghdad for desert storm as special ops. I saw a lot of things. However, to be honest, I never expected to see so much biting, slandering and fighting over politics. It's actually a bit sickening.
I'm a middle of the road kind of guy to be honest. I was asked at the polls who I voted for, and I POLITELY told they guy (who btw was holding a kerry poster) that I voted for the guy who I felt would do the job. I was polite, I was almost cordial, and he understood. We actually struck up a conversation about the weather.
If you voted for Bush, that's your right. If you voted for Kerry, that's your right as well. Whoever wins will be supported, like it or not, by a lot of people. We cannot allow this great nation to be so extremely divided along party lines that we don't see the truth in that fact. We must pull together, and while it may offend your delicate sensibilities, you might just have to swallow your pride and say "hey, that guy did the job he was hired for".. good or bad.. he did the job.
ShadowMom has spoken out against guns, walmart, perverts, forestry and many other topics. That's okay with me. She's (most of the time) intelligent in her posts, and (usually) keeps it within the realm of opinion. When she does go on a rant, she gets blasted just like anyone else. It's happened to me a few times. I don't agree with a lot of what she says, but isn't part of being an educated adult being able to look at all sides of an issue and make an informed personal decision (opinion)?? Isn't that what voting is all about? Not who has more money to shove tv commercials down my throat. Not who can sling more mud. In the end, when I vote, I always vote with my head and my heart, and not mutually exclusive to either. I vote for the candidate that has the most to offer ME, who says things that touch ME the most. I take into consideration what others say, even my father, who has my undying love and respect. He doesn't always AGREE with my votes, but he at least understands that I made what *I* felt was an informed decision.

Leflaw and Code. Hrm, there's a tough one. They are both well read and obviously know how to write. They've chosen to align themselves with this website and this cause because they believe in it. Even though it does look like this is going to be an uphill battle for a long time, these two, like many others, have decided to put thier not inconsiderable talents into it. I applaud that. It's actually part of what keeps me coming back. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I don't always agree with what either says, but I don't have to. I just have to say so, and leave it at that.

People want to come in here and read once, and post, w/o actually reading the entire collection, then flame? Come one folks! If you don't like the soup, leave the kitchen. You have a right, so say your piece and walk away. Just don't harass someone just because they have different ideologies. All you have to do is go somewhere else where your views are the same as everyone elses.
I believe in this cause. I believe that music should be free, and musicians should get paid. Whether that will happen under Bush or Kerry honestly remains immaterial. IT HAS TO HAPPEN. That, my friends is the bottom line.
ttmmm

Remye, very well said.

with 100% of the districts reporting, bush carries ohio by 2%.

American has forsaken rationality for "faith based" leadership, and quite frankly i hope we as a nation pay dearly for our collective stupidity.

This time there is no doubt.. the people have spoken, and a majority of americans have become deluded with the same emperialist "manifest destiny" crap that led to the genocidal indian wars.

Because americans support the warlike neocon agenda, terrorists have a reason to hate americans rather than just american politicians, and where before it was not so clear, i honestly sympathise with their holy war against america.

" i honestly sympathise with their holy war against america."

That right there is just sad. It's a free country though.

i voted for Michael Badnarik. i get to complain either way. on a less cheerfull note, looks like you're right awehr. sad. really really sad. :=(

I straddle the fence.. i'm a social liberal but an economic conservative..

I never really had a problem with republican administrations.

the trouble is.. bush is not a republican. he is a new political manifestation.

The best way i can term him is "neo-Nero".

his administration runs our nation even worse than he ran his oil companies, sets the world and economy into shambles..then laughs and sings while they burn (let the eagle soar)

The world is just shakin their heads.....

But think about what you said awehr. You said you sympathize with terrorists in their war against us. Does that mean you sympathize with Osama?

WE were the terrorists and anarchists back in 1776.

so yes.. it does.

I'm not saying i enjoy what happens to americans, but americans have just said they want their leaders to trample the sovreignty and economic independence of other nations, and force them to live like americans when they at best could care less.

In the words of the nox (stargate): "your way is not the only way"

Sorry I missed the festivities.

I had to crash early last night...dead tired.

And, for once, I decided not to post my thoughts on the thread I started.

Of course, I do HAVE thoughts on this whole election issue, and , have opted to post those on my many blogs...

I posted those under the heading...
THE RELIGION OF POLITICS.

http://codewarriorz.blogspot.com
http://codewarriorz.blogdrive.com
http://codewarrriorz.tblog.com
http://codewarrior.blog-city.com
http://codewarriorz.tblog.com


Thanks.

You sympathize with Osama Bin Laden. The man responsible for killing 2700 of your fellow American's. What did we do prior to the attack that led to your conclusion? It's been shown that they planned this well before Bush took office so what do you think triggered it? I'm trying to understand you but have to be honest; To me it looks like you're pissed that Bush looks to have won and are speaking out of anger which I understand. I didn't vote for him either but what's done is done. So please if you can explain your thoughts a little more I would appreciate it. I truly am trying to understand where you're coming from if you're indeed NOT speaking out of anger.

What did we do prior to the attack that led to your conclusion?

ok.. first we carved up their land and made new unstable nations from regions which WERE stable.

second we continually impose military might and sanctions against their nations which keep them dirt poor, among other things, and it apparently is only because they are "too different" from us.

It reminds me of when they pick on the foreign exchange student in school... same principle but apply it to middle eastern islamic peoples.

We shuffle their land and kick them whenever they try to rise above their situations.. maybe because we dislike the ideology of 4-5 people who are in high position there.

I have a stake in the region too as a jew.. so the fact that i've said what i've said is important. There is always another side to an issue..

this issue is one of a people whose identity as a people have been denied for huge quantities of time dating back to the time of the crusades and even further.

as for anger regarding bush.. i consider his administration just like i consider the continuous barrage of corporate marketing... a daily annoyance.. but a mind numbing one.

To me.. disappointment is more accurate. this is not bush's fault anymore. he may have stolen the election in 2000, but this time people put him back despite his lack of aptitude for the position.

Well I don't really know what else I can say. You are strong in your beliefs and I will respect that. I don't understand how us laying sanctions on countries is bad yet when we went into Iraq it was bad also. What makes us obligated to trade with a country? Just to be nice? BUT going into Iraq was worse even though we got rid of a modern day Hitler? To me your arguments don't add up. To you mine problem has just as many holes in them. I'll agree to disagree. I still think you sympathizing with terrorists who are out to kill us all is sad. Like I said though. It's a free country.

I can't believe your dismissing the unfair stunting and hegemonistic destruction of governments and economies.

We whine about recessions..but they live in unfathomable misery just so our nation's leaders can "punish the evil doers"

We occasionally mention less than wholesome means to remove invasive copyright industry legislative/enforcement efforts.

What they are doing to us is small potatoes compared to what the US does to mideastern peoples.

It takes a lot to push someone to violence, and if youre incapable of comprehending it maybe you should go live there for a little while and find out what it's like.

See to me though that doesn't excuse an American sympathizing with the likes of Osama Bin Laden. I see your points. Believe me I do. I just don't agree with them.

I don't need to go live there. I fought and damned near died there. That was enough for me.

Off the subject. Watching Fox News and am wondering why Ralph Nader even bothered to run.

I suppose i'm able to sympathise with militant arab factions because as a jew many local domestic policies trample my freedom to reject christianity.

I suppose when you're locked in a gym at the age of 14 and forced to attend latin mass in a school you remember the indignity.

"I fought and damned near died there. That was enough for me."

stefepjc: just remember this.. that guy "in the other trench" so to speak.. that guy knows he is facing down the most higly trained and best equipped fighting force on earth. He would not be doing so without a damned good reason.

Just like you he's human, and just like you he doesnt want to do what he doesnt think is necessary.

Again I'm not playing down or talking down your points. They're good points. I just can't see how you said what you did. Again you have your reasons and I respect that. I think it's really best we just let this one lay. You won't change my mind and I obviously won't change yours.

Attempt to change the subject.

Barak Obama = First Black President of the United States. If he wants it that is. `

ok lets go through this shall we, first off fox news is a republican work horse, second ralph nader, after the first election in 2000 became vindictive. he is a good man and all of the things he has said make sense and are true. However, he did not pull together the people he needed to, right after the election, if he did pull together a ton of people, or stuck with the green party we would have had a stronger 3rd party candidate.

on the topic of osama bin laden. this is what he said after the 9/11 attacks. " what america is tasting now is something insignificant compared to whjat we have ttasted for scores of years. our nation had been tasting this humiliation and degradation for more than 80 years. its sons are killed, its blood is shed, its sactuaries are attacked and no one hears and no one heeds. millions of innocent children are being killed as i speak. they are being illed in Ira without committing any sins (he was refering to the sanctions) To America i say only a few words to it and its people. I swear to God, who has elevated the skies without pillars, neither america nor the people who live in it will dream of security before we live it here in palestine and not before all the infidel armies leave the land of muhammed"

he is defending his religion, his land.yes he killed innocents but they were desperate, they needed to be heard, and i think their please fell on deaf ears before done you? buttttt the bad things we have done to them have been left out of the news especially out of fox. I am jewish too and i know for a fact that the israelis ( some) espeically those in power here in the neo cons, and the rest of the neo cons are making everyone see islamic as terrorist, if we were invaded and fought back we wouldnt be a terrorist we would be patriotic. its rhetoric.

"stefepjc: just remember this.. that guy "in the other trench" so to speak.. that guy knows he is facing down the most higly trained and best equipped fighting force on earth. He would not be doing so without a damned good reason."

From what I saw for the most part it was the threat of being shot by his own leaders. Yes some were doing it for a damned good reason in their minds. I have four confirmed kills in Desert Storm. Not a day goes by where I don't remember each and every one. Hell I'm getting choked up as I type this post remembering one specific one in Basrah where he couldn't have been more than 20-21. Yes I wasn't much older BUT it was either shoot him or he would have shot me. I was fighting for what I believe in and in my mind his motives were wrong and needed to be stopped. I remember also being in Kuwaiit and coming on a scene where a 16-18 year old girl was raped with a broken wine bottle and bled to death. These are the things I remember about "them" and maybe you can now see why I am trying to agree to disagree. I hope you respect that as I have respected your points.

May the best liar win

think about it this way. in simple terms,
we invade a country, and bomb it to shit killing a ton a ton of innocents as well. they didnt have anything at all to do with 9/11, so forget 9/11 ( this is a iraq we are talking about. why wouldnt there be resistence? we are foreigners in their land we are the invaders. dont give me the crock of shit of bringing democracy, you can do that in more peacful ways. look at our election here its just as bad as it is over there.

ah to hell awher, and the others who are trying to use logic. guys we lost, the america we wished was true wasnt we are getting dumber by the generation, and the politicians love it that way. also politics are like religion to these guys they close their ears, and stick to their guns, they think we are yelling at them and telling them what to do, when we just want to give them information that really shows that they arent looking at facts. and are causing a huge problem by doing so. And to get rid of PC they are wrong. they are but in their world, their perception we are tree hugging sissys. so there are only three things to do. pack up and leave, the dumb have inherited the USA. or try to educate more people and get a 3rd party in after 4 years of hell. or finally just realize money is an agreement of wealth and if we destroy that agreement they dont have any power anymore

there are bound to be the assholes who come out and use war for their gain it happens here

"May the best liar win"

I sure hope you're not talking about awehr or myself.

To give you some background.. i am someone who lives in a state of personal disconnection which can only be compared to living life through a huge panel of soundproof bulletproof glass.

I'm able to view almost everything with objectivity.

I am in this community because music has been the only thing which can bridge this disconnection for short periods of time, and because the so called copyright wars have, through excercise of pure greed, destroyed the purity, meaning, and intent of that music for all artists everywhere.

Until i see a lawsuit by every artists guild against the RIAA for defamation for supplanting the meaning of their music with conveyed greed, I myself will be unable to find peace in my music.

The profundity of this transgression against the artform that music is, and all who appreciate it, can not be overstated. It is to the spirit what a nuclear exchange is to the planet.

That is, i guess, what is necessary to stir me from my normal disconnected observation.

I am no partisan, and while i care for the state of humanity in general, i take no sides.

in other words.. i will argue a position, but i will not lie to substantiate it because 99.999% of the time it really does not matter to me that much.

"Until i see a lawsuit by every artists guild against the RIAA for defamation for supplanting the meaning of their music with conveyed greed, I myself will be unable to find peace in my music."

Now you and me are on the same page!!! I haven't bought a CD since 1998. Kinda proud of that. I will say I have bought DVD's though. Sorry... I like my home movie entertainment.

My real worry is not if Bush or Kerry is president..the real worry is the larger majority the GOP has with the House and Senate (I know it would just as bad with the opposite).

With apparent John Ashcroft keeping on as AG, then his crusade against the internet will go on unabated.

We're going beyond worrying about being able to share an mp3 here or there.

He's modifying the FBI itself to take an unprecedented focus towards curtailling the freedoms we enjoy using the internet.

Oh well, do a capture of the image on your screen right now and store it away in a safe place with your other fond memories, because over the next four years you will see a radical reduction in the internet's ability to do what it was designed to do. It's been a good run, I've been using the net since 92 or 93 and I'll miss it.

Sorry, probably a little melodramatic, but that's just a residual feeling I'm expressing about where I feel we're headed.

Leflaw I wonder if you could put up a poll on Boycott-Riaa. "Did you vote for Bush" is the question. I'm curious.

We can do a poll. It will be up sometimes today 9 (I hope)...

The majority of the senate is republican...the presidency of the democrat would be needed to balance it out I suppose if there really was such thing as a bipartisan anymore.

I dont think there was an inkling of thought regarding the Patriot Act.
Gun control was.
"I dont care about invasion of privacy, freedom of speech...damnit..I need my gun!"

It's nice to know where the priorities are.

I am just sick to my stomach.
The U.S. should have spent more time educating and uplifting the south than on foreign aid.

I'm curious Carla. Who did you vote for if I may ask.

How could you possibly think that I would vote for Bush?
I voted for John Kerry and Barack Obama.

lol

The House is lost, the Senate is lost.
Bush created so many more terrorists and people who hate us. I am afraid they will try to kill us. Who will help us? Bush wants to go it alone.
I'm just sick.

Carla
I honestly think the majority of voters for Bush might be holding to the idea that he could be another Ronald Reagan. I voted for Bush back in 2000 as somewhat of a backlash to Clinton's administration with NAFTA...even tho I probably knew that he was going to finish daddy's job with Iraq..I never realized Bush was going to exacberate the economic woes of our country with his family's personl interest.
Foreign policy is not too much of a factor in my voting decision primarily because I dont really see the bipartisan differences....so it comes down to economy and social issues and Bush to me pretty much ignored both of them during his term.

To show another side to the story. Alot of people raved about F9/11. Anyone who voted for Kerry watch Stolen Honor? Carla? And before you think I'm jumping on your choice I didn't vote for Bush either.

i wasnt laughing at who carla voted for i was laughing that steve would ask her

Burner I knew she didn't vote for Bush. I just wanted to know which alternative she chose.

A lot of those posts attacking leflaw and code looked like the same person with different accounts.

I do remember leflaw mentioning that the cost of running this site is $36,000 a month. If someone else were to take over the site, I believe that would also include paying that $36,000 every month.

While I usually agree with the Republicans over the Democrats I am wondering if the Republicans are getting to much af an advantage.

2008 Prediction:
Rep - R. Guiliani
Dem - H. Clinton
Ind - J. Ventura
Lib - R. Paul ?
Con - Buchanan ?
Grn - ???

I didn't see Stolen Honor, but I'm proud Kerry protested that war.
Reminds me of police who think they have to protect their own regardless of what they do.
It's wrong.

In addition, my conversations with undecided voters were contemplating on Bush because theyre wanted assurance of protecting our borders.

The last time we really protected our borders was the spanish war. There's quite a difference when a country literally invades you and tries to take over as opposed to instigating a war for unknown speculative possibly trivial reasons.
Thats why war wasnt a major factor in my vote.

just a thought i think the democrats need to take a hard look at aligning them selves with the extreme left bomb throwers like michael moore and the rest of the idiots from hollywood if they want to be taken seriously. i think they turn off alot of people when they have all the negative crap like moveon.org puts out .

I shouldn't be, but I'm constantly amazed at how dumb people are and go against their own best interests.

Even though the election is over and he has lost, (Most likely) I highly reccomend it as people so proudly reccomended F9/11. Scary film. I'm almost ashamed I voted for Kerry after seeing this. I see why this film was fought so hard. Then again looking at the alternative it was clearly the lesser of two evils. If I would have seen this I most certainly would not have cast my vote his way.

Michael Moore and extreme left -- bomb throwers? Is that a metaphor? You can't mean that literally.

I would *hope* that even a pop-culture deluded culture we live in..that people would have some inkling of common sense.

What that people wouldn't be swayed by films like F9/11 and Stolen Honor?

Pop-Culture and politics shouldnt mix. Its hard to take them seriously because it insulting to assume that people are THAT brainwashed or the very least not everyone is.

I never saw F911 so I cant speak for that film. I only assume that it hit the majority the way Stolen Honor hit me. Makes you stop and think twice. No harm in that.

I never watched F911..I read one of Moore's book and while some of his views are engaging...a lot of it was just pure pandering..particularly his views on race issues and I saw him as another anti-Bill OReilly or anti-Ann Coulter with a lot of contradictions.

But I will say that its very likely that F911 swung the popular vote to Republican...ironic.

Why do you think it swung the popular vote the republican way? Backlash over it being an obvious smear piece like Stolen Honor?

[nods]
While some praised the film..there are a lot of others who were pretty disgusted.
I was told it was very one sided because the film primarily focused on the republicans and not the democrats which is something I wouldnt be surprised about. But thats the thing..its a biased money maker...it shouldnt sway your personal judgement..but we live in a crazy world.
Im not saying its absolute..it's just very possible.

Looking forward to your response indie. Gotta go for a bit. This thread has been.......Interesting to say the least.

Did Moore really endorse Kerry in that film at the end?

I've just finished reading this entire thread and I'll never get that 20 minutes back.

lol george i know what you mean

From the Onion, a late update:

WASHINGTON, DC—Supporters of presidential candidate Ralph Nader blamed his defeat Tuesday on George W. Bush and John Kerry, claiming that the two candidates "ate up" his share of the electoral votes. "This election was stolen out from under Mr. Nader by Bush and Kerry, who diverted his votes to the right and the left," Nader campaign manager Theresa Amato said. "It's an outrage. If Nader were the only candidate, he would be president right now."

kerry conceded so its all over now

Hip hip hooray. Way to go Bush !

the people have spoke .its good to see that even though with the media against the republicans the people saw through the smoke screen and voted with some common sense.

lef, I hope you realize none of that was me.

Bill

we are doomed

Well there will be a draft. I can't believe Bush won. I can't believe this is happening.

Carla, get a grip. It's not the end of the world.

We get four more years of great humor on The Daily Show and SNL. Subliminable strategery, Hispanically speaking, because we all know how hard it is to put food on your family. It's hard work.

So the world will hate us. They already do. And by actually electing Bush this time, the American people are now complicit conspirators which obviously think "freedom is on the march."

Which brings us to the crux of the bisquit, namely the question posed in the movie "Signs" -- Does everything happen for a reason, or are some people just lucky?

Have you ever noticed that the only time people tell you that "everything happens for a reason" is when you've just been screwed by fate? Maybe your house blows down in a hurricane, you get a divorce, your dog dies, you lose thousands of dollars in the land of pig farms -- you know, all of those things that country music are there to remind us about.

I think some people are just lucky.

Hi, George, I just got back. Didn't mean to start a firestorm here, but I guess I'm still just a dreamer and an optimist. And right now, I'm a really unhappy one. It always surprises me when anyone reads my posts, and I certainly had no intention of insulting or slighting our troops. Just the twit in the White House.

And, no, I don't think I have to support him just because he won. Protest and dissent is peculiarly an American right, remember? This is still America, and if I don't like what my government does, it is not only my right, it's my duty to let them know. And if you agree with them, good for you. Enjoy your next four years, you deserve them.

Gdziemann

You mean like when people do bad things to you and tell you later "It wasnt personal?"

I dont think either presidential candidate wouldve changed the world's attitude about us as much as our attitude about them.

We shall see what our future holds when it comes down to social and economic issues as Americans have little tolerance for them

I know you had more class, thumbtack.

leflaw, can I get in trouble with you for calling a twit a twit?

Before all this presidential showdown...whatever happen to the fate of Roe Vs Wade?
With the repulicans having full control...it's going to be interesting.

carla--check your DMusic notes, please.

ShadowMom -- Just don't misspell it.

Thank goodness, I'm a very good speller. If I ever misspell it, you may be sure it is intentional, George!

Lef,
Your site your rules. More power to ya.
Until that idiot showed up, there was
disagreement, but it was civil.
The moron's only objective was to bait.

I'd Looove to help run the site, but I have no experience or cash. I have all
the TIME in the world, and thats it. I am
a disabled house-dad.
I believe soundly that the corporate engines must be brought in line ( RIAA and it's cronies are symptoms of a greater disease ). The only way that happens is if ALL the truths are exposed.
THAT is the meat of the internet, and the real reason for the RIAA and other industries push to clamp down on it.
The politics ARE appropriate here, since they are part of the WHOLE truth.
It's really too bad Obama DIDN'T run for pres. He'd have gotten my vote.
As it is, I voted for Badnarik for pres, and I gave Obama my vote as well.

IDEA!!!!


Call in Boycott-riaa or Dmusic conference call!!!

Actually kerry would have put in the draft.

Bush won the popular vote this time so atleast democrats can't complain.

America made a wise choice

Enjoy the next 4 years

I just got out of bed -- again. Glad you're rising to the occasion, George.
Feeling sick has given way to weeping. I think that's progress.
These two Johns have a lot of class.

The way I see it is I haven't had a president for four years. And I won't have one for another four years. And that's sad. We have no American anymore just a repulican country.

"Actually kerry would have put in the draft."

Not sure the alterative is any better. Our boys, scheduled to come home and get out are finding that can't be done. To stop the drain of folks leaving the military in droves they have made all the members retainable and have kept them from getting out. Especially those in the war zone that were scheduled to come home already.

To be honest, it is a matter of numbers. I don't think in the long haul, if we remain within Iraq that there will be any other choice. No matter how it is presented, not enough military to cover the ground comes out to not enough people. The aren't but just a few ways to increase the size of the military. You can drum the patriot theme at fisrt and that has been done. You can increase the inticements to keep and recruit new members and if that doesn't work, what you gonna do?

The choice is easy. Either leave Iraqi or reinstitute the draft. Don't depend on the Pres saying no draft. He will say anything to get back in office. He knows this is his last term. He won't be facing the voters again next election time. Don't be suprised if this issue comes up again if we are not out of Iraq soon...

I'm amazed how tained the vote is. Why are 1500 lawyers called into action on behalf of the canidates? How corrupt is the system if even before all the votes are in, there's already been a number of court cases filed about the voting system? After 2000's voting fiasco I had hoped the 2004 vote would go more smoothly.. it hasn't. Whether it's Diebold's machines or the validity of absentee ballots... it's all just more of the same old, same old. I didn't have faith in the government before.. and I've even less now.

There was some others they was lie the Diebold's machines. It was in texas. They would change the peoples vote. How many people had their votes changed. It's really sad to know this goes on here. Like I said we don't have a america anymore.

" meet the new boss, same as the old boss... "

RIGHT ON!!

Nicely put.

Politicians... they are all scum-sucking-hose-weasles

Sorry that was
There was some others besides Diebold's machines

I wonder how much truth is in the statement that the best politician is the person who never wanted the job in the first place

I like how today they're saying that Bush got the most votes ever while conveniently forgetting the fact that our population is bigger than ever. Well.. duh.

"We get four more years of great humor on The Daily Show and SNL."

SNL was pretty hard on Kerry and the Democrats, too. Humor knows no political boundaries, because on some level all politicians are pandering buffoons. I really don't care for Jon Stewart, though he was OK as a guest host when Tom Snyder was on vacation.

" they think freedom is on the march"

Freedom is on the march. Here's what George Will wrote in his column "W, with all his faults":

QUOTE
Tuesday's winner will not start from scratch but from where we are now, standing with the women of Bamiyan, Afghanistan. Back in Washington recently, Zalmay Khalilzad, U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan, said those women were warned that Taliban remnants would attack polling places during the Oct. 9 elections. So the women performed the ritual bathing and said the prayers of those facing death. Then, rising at 3 a.m., they trekked an hour to wait in line for the polls to open at 7 a.m. In the province of Kunar an explosion 100 meters from a long line of waiting voters did not cause anyone to leave the line.
END QUOTE

The "blame America first" crowd just can't wrap their minds around the good we are doing. Thank you to all of you who served in the middle east, and made this possible.

awehr: you say we made a stable region unstable. It depends on your definition of stable, I suppose. Iraq was at war with Iran for some time, a torturous war. Then Saddam blundered into Kuwait looting raping and pillaging. This is stability? You must have a different dictionary.

Well now that the race is done, the votes have been counted, and Kerry has conceded, I just want to thank a few people.

To Carla, thank you for posting that informative letter from Michael Moore on that last thread. That and the enlightening posts by mroop incresed my determination to go out Tuesday and have my vote counted. Of course I placed my vote for George Bush for president and Isackson for senator from the State of Georgia.

However I do want to make it clear that I voted for John F. Kerry in the Georgia Democratic Primary before giving my vote to Dubya yesterday.

I feel really good being able to honestly tell people that I voted for Kerry before I voted against him.

autodidact:
While I agree that internal conflicts are not always the fault of americans, it's naive to just automatically believe that after we meddle our noses for reasons we like to believe are selfless motives..its often not the case that its the best interest for them.
If it were, why are we always in a state of conflict with everyone else? Because they hate us? Why?
The first question to ask as an american is..do we care? If not..any assumptions made based on our ignorance is pretty meaningless.

awehr: Umm actually, the United States had nothing to do with cariving up either the Middle East now Africa. Prior to 1919, the Middle East and the area of the Arabian Peninsula was under the control of the Ottoman Empire. Following the end of the First World War, the Middle East was divided up between France and Great Britain who were to govern the territory under the authority of the League of Nations. Lenanon and Syria were ruled by France until their independence. Meanwhile Jordan, Palestine, Egypt, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States were governed by the British.

Africa was divided among Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Portugal, Belgium, and Spain.

In any case the true blame for the problems in the Middle East lie with the League of Nations and the European countries who governed the area.

BTW: If I recall correctly, only Iran (Then Persia), and Ethiopia were not under the control of one of the European Nations.

carving not cariving. Sorry for the misspelling

I'm glad john kerry decided to concede instead of challenging it.

In John kerry's concession speech he used the phrase "came too late and too short".
Sounds like a line he used on his honeymoon.

Thank you lord, the vote is over.

Now we can go back to bitching about the latest act of The Shrub or The Great Leader, depending on which side you favor.

Thank you lord, the vote is over.

Now we can go back to bitching about the latest act of The Shrub or The Great Leader, depending on which side you favor.

Sorry for the double post, wasn't intentional.

BTW The Shrub=little Bush

How is it that there's 280 posts here and not one is from CodeWarrior?

Did he NymShift and I missed it?

Has self control really gotten hold?

Are you in mourning Code?

You all know my stance and there's no need too reiterate it here now.

Name calling and inter-bickering will signal the end of this forum (as a success) as it does every other public, out of control, forum. It's even worse when the example is set at the top.

Mike-- you flip-flopper, you!

Mike2212:

"In any case the true blame for the problems in the Middle East lie with the League of Nations and the European countries who governed the area."

after wwII america played a heavy role in international affairs. Do not dismiss their involvement in post wwII politics in the region.

If i am not mistaken americans had a huge role from the carving out of isreal forward.

And.. if you havent noticed, these factions are not particularly friendly to the european powers either.

But it is clear, or was clear until quite recently, that europe followed the lead of the united states from the end of wwII to present, and thus it is the US which can be clearly seen as ringleader.

In any case the true blame for the problems in the Middle East lie with the League of Nations and the European countries who governed the area.

The man is worse than corrupt. he is an idiot.

and i consider you one for voting for him.

If you want faith based leadership that is your choice, but isaakson is incapable of even keeping up with legislation on the hill. He is an incompetent, and your blind vote along partisan lines shows your true colors.

I trust your accountings of history in posts after this one as i would trust a nazi's accounting of the history of jewish culture.

the quote which should have been pasted was:

"Of course I placed my vote for George Bush for president and Isackson for senator from the state of Georgia."

number one.. you misspelled his name, and you got his seat wrong.. he's a representative.

number two.. i mailed him about legislation and he responded about the wrong bill, thus showing his incompetence.

Pinemikey wrote:

"My real worry is not if Bush or Kerry is president..the real worry is the larger majority the GOP has with the House and Senate (I know it would just as bad with the opposite).

With apparent John Ashcroft keeping on as Attorney General, then his crusade against the internet will go on unabated.

We're going beyond worrying about being able to share an mp3 here or there.

He's modifying the FBI itself to take an unprecedented focus towards curtailling the freedoms we enjoy using the internet.

Oh well, do a capture of the image on your screen right now and store it away in a safe place with your other fond memories, because over the next four years you will see a radical reduction in the internet's ability to do what it was designed to do. It's been a good run, I've been using the net since '92 or '93, and I'll miss it.

Sorry, probably a little melodramatic, but that's just a residual feeling I'm expressing about where I feel we're headed."


Yeah, I share that ominous type of apprehension myself. We probably have good reason.

Let's see, Ashcroft & Co. might initially be able to set his sights on those whom he could define as dissidents -- those aligning themselves in some manner to be construed as lending comfort to the cause of terrorism by openly speaking or communicating critically against the government's policy on the war on terror -- and with FBI enforcement, prohibiting those individuals and website operators from use of the internet under federal penalty. Eventually, the scope of dissident offenders might be broadened to become even more repressive against citizens' civil liberties . . .
That's not surrealistic, is it? (I actually hope it is.)

There may be enough legislators to go along with Ashcroft's tactics. After all, in the interest of "national security", that sounds so urgent! (in the ears of those who are too prone to trade rights for 'safety')

Just several months ago, I recall the Administration speaking forcefully about the need to shore up intellectual property rights (I hate that terminology, just like 'Code does). Not long afterward, Ashcroft announced his intentions: a get-tough policy against P2P infringement.

CodeWarrior You need to read this. I know they had problems in Texas also it was on the net.

Touchscreen voting troubles reported

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/11/03/electronic.voting.ap/index.html

gilbd
Thanks!
will check it out.

enough already.. bush won.

the problems are terribly small and insignificant.

There were no significant states which could be contested.

end of story, time to live with it and realize the american people are behind a president who has no respect for
A. other nations
B. nonchristians & homosexuals
C. technology & progress.

the majority of americans WANT to regress back into the cold war under neocon control. if you dont like it its time to emmigrate.

sorry:

D. the free capitalist market (that's a big one)

I always wanted to get the last word in a political argument...

We've got Dubya, Rumsfeld, and Ashcroft until January 2009! Yikes!

Oh, I've got to tell ya: Yesterday when I was casting my ballot at an elementary school that served as a voting location, they had these cute posters made by primary-grade children hanging on a wall nearby.
The one that caught my eye the most (and, at this point, seems almost prophetic) had these words printed inside a nicely colored border:
GOD HELP US ALL.

Yep. That's how I really feel, too.

awehr: The name calling does convince the justness of your views and I will not stoop cuch childishness. I may expect such speech from my elementary school students but resorting to callin me an idiot tells me all I want to know about your character or lack thereof.

Furthermore, whether I misspelled Isaacson's name or not does not take away from the fact that he was running against Denis Maget for Zell Miller's senate seat. You really need to get your facts straight.

Finally, if you had bothered to check your history books then you will realize that the United States did not become a big supporter of Israel until after the 1967 War. During the 1948 war, the United States strongly enforced it's neutrality by embargoing weapons shipments to Israel. That is why the Israeli Defence Force air airm first fighters were Czech versions of the Messerschmitt Me-109 called the CS-199 and Spitfire Mk IX that were acquired from Czechslovakia. Additionally, throughout, the 1950-60s, the main arms suppliers for Israel were Britain and France. In fact the three nations combined forces to attack Egypt in 1956.

That was the Suez Crisis of November 1956 when France and Britain decided to attack Egypt when Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal. Until that time, it had been owned and operated by British and French companies. The United States pushed for the British and French to pull out.

Awehr: Here, I will even help correct your historical misinformation by pointing out where you can find accurate facts. This is the standard 10th grade World History Task and should be at your reading level.

"World History, Perspectives of the Past"
by D.C. Heath

1) the true story behind Imperialism: "Chapter 25: The Age of Imperialism" pp. 568-580

2) Treaty of Versailles and division of Ottoman Empire: "Chapter 27: World War I" pp.634-637

3) Post World War II Middle East: "Chapter 34, Section 4 New Nations arose in the Middle East" pp. 795-803.

If you want to debate European and Middle Eastern History, you should really get your facts in order or follow the proverb, "It is better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt."

*Rolls eyes and shakes head*

Awehr: One last point the correct spelling is emigrate, not emmigrate.

In regards to spelling, 'Tis a poor sword that doesn't cut both ways'

This has been a charming discussion, but I have to prepare notes for tommorrow's World History lesson on West African Empires.

Shadowmom It's nice know somebody out there can tell the difference between a joke and serious beliefs.

awehr: You actually thought I was being serious when I said I voted for Kerry before I voted against him? You really need to stop the hating and chill.


Night, all

If'n yer so smart, why'dya vote for Bush?

Eric Zorn always makes me feel better.

Eric Zorn's Notebook, WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 2004 (Chicago Tribune)

A PLACE CALLED HOPE

Twenty months ago I chose to put my trust in President Bush and hoped that he was right – that we'd reached the point where the threat posed by Iraq was so serious that it called for the solution of last resort -- a military attack.

I came to regret and disavow that choice.

And now, more than 1,100 American deaths and one quagmire later, it appears that I'm in the position once again of having to hope that Bush is right – that his approach to fighting international terrorism is the best approach, the one that, long-term, will result in maximum liberty and minimum loss of innocent life.

My hope this time is not accompanied by either trust or a sense of choice, but it is a hope.

Those of us who feel there is a better way had our turn at the polls Tuesday, and we lost.

President Bush has won a second term.

Now he gets four more years to try to be a uniter not a divider, to increase respect for the United States throughout the world, to reduce the threat from Islamic fundamentalists who practice terror, to put more people back to work, to improve health care and extend educational opportunities to the disadvantaged, to stanch the flow of red ink in the Federal budget, to protect the environment and to do all the other things he promised he'd do.

Republican President Bush will enjoy a Republican Senate, a Republican House, Republican appointees in seven of the nine Supreme Court justice seats, 29 Republican governors and virtually 24/7 support from right-wing talk radio to help him realize those promises and confirm the beliefs of his supporters.

Credit and blame for what happens in this country and to this country in the upcoming years will belong to him and his party.

Speaking for myself, I'll be happy to apportion both and trust that they will accept it honestly.

They begged the electorate to give them responsibility. Well, they've got it:

Opportunity. Responsibility and that ol' devil Accountability.

No more blaming Dan Rather, Tom Daschle or the homosexual agenda when things go wrong.

No more bleating about what President Clinton did to the economy and a White House intern and didn't do to Osama bin Laden.

Some of my e-mail this morning has been taunting and ugly – celebrating the Bush victory by inviting me to eat crow and do anatomically impossible things.

But winning an election does not demonstrate the superiority of your principles and programs; it's merely a chance to do so.

To the old saying that the only poll that matters is the poll taken inside the voting booth on election day, I'd add that the only vote that matters is the vote ultimately cast by history.

I have more doubts than hopes about what history will say about George W. Bush. So does about 48 percent of the electorate.

The doubts will inspire our vigilance. The hopes will get us through.

We're doomed.

The third world war is upon us.

And we have no one else to blame but ourselves.

Well Carla.....I hear Obama won the senate seat for Illinois, so perhaps a light at the end of the tunnel. Stay away from that crow Eric mentions....I hear it is nasty stuff.

Glad to see you recovered, Carla. And I like the column. Especially the last two sentences. I always told my children trust is something you earn, and once it is broken it's very hard to put back together. Trust has been broken many times by this administration. It will take more than four years, I'm afraid, to put it back together.
We are not doomed, the world is not ending, but there's obviously a lot of work to do. Vigilance and hope. I like the sound of that.
Whether we like it or not (and I think most of us here do NOT), we have to put up with him for four more years. But we've already proved we can make our point with politicians by calling, e-mailing, and writing. So those are the things we need to keep doing. I wish I had some religion left in me--it would be so easy to say ... pray.

If'n yer so smart, why'dya vote for Bush?

Carla: I have enough respect for your decision to vote for Kerry and the reasons for doing so. Despite the fact, I do not share your political views, I do respect you and support your right to do so. I do ask that you respect my right to have differing views without the petty remarks.

However, to answer your question the reasons why I voted for Bush is that I agree with his elimination of the Taliban government in Afghanistan and bringing the war to the enemie's doorstep. I still have no faith in Kerry's ability as Commander-in-Chief due to his record as a senator from Massachusetts, his testimony in front of the senate where he painted any American serviceman serving in Vietnam as a war criminal. My father served two tours in SE Asia as an infantry officer and my two uncles were in the Marines and Army. In my opinion, Kerry is a traitor to those he served. I myself served in the USAF prior to going into education and might still be recalled to active duty. Frankly, Kerry is not a man who I trust to not cut and run when the going got tough.

Now my other responses were directed at awehr who basically accused me of having a nazi's view of Jewish culture and a general name-calling. When that happens, I tend to fight back, the only way I know how, by documenting my facts.

Well, when Osama bin Laden is planning his next attack on America, perhaps he can take into account the "political" map and leave the states that didn't vote for Bush alone.

Carla: One last thing, I apologize for any petty remarks, I may have directed towards you.

I see now, it's all about hating Kerry and thinking he was a traitor (instead of recognizing his courage in protesting a useless and immoral war). I guess that makes me a traitor too, in your eyes.

I just don't understand how you can get past Bush's lying and stupidity.

kyodylee -- my sister in southern Ohio is worried that the terrorists will target Columbus.

Okay, now, that's enough. Who knows where I can find or download a copy of Kerry's testimony? Because I do not believe he indicted every single serviceman. Vietnam was wrong, your father was not wrong, you were not wrong, but I want to hear this testimony or read it for myself. And if the record doesn't support you, Mike, I'll be sure to let you know. Code, Carla, mroop, anybody know where I can find it? 'Cause I've got plenty of time to listen to it, or read it. I want to know the truth.

Google to the rescue:
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Manifestos/VVAW_Kerry_Senate.html

Mike? Where did you hear it? How do you KNOW what he said? I don't know what he said, so let's clear it up.

Perfect, Carla, thanks, I will be back after I read it .... and one thing usually leads to another on the internet. Let me see what the traitor had to say.

". . . his [Kerry's] testimony in front of the senate where he painted any American serviceman serving in Vietnam as a war criminal."

Hey, ShadowMom, I'd like to check in on that too.

Hmm, as an aside, I wonder if Kerry will consider trying for the presidential primaries again in 2008.

Okay, Mike, keeping in mind that you're a history teacher--do you accept that this is the full, complete, unedited text of Kerry's speech that day? Because if you do, show me where he indicts ALL the soldiers. Show me where he's a traitor. Because I'm positive you could not condone war crimes. Just being American doesn't make you an angel. Nor does it make you perenially right. If you DON'T accept this version, show me another one, and I'll read it. I have never read or heard this testimony, but if you are going to quote it, back it up.

Hi, DemandRelevance. Check it out. Not to pick on Mike, but these generalizations drive me up the wall. And he's a teacher, so I'll make him back it up. I'm not saying he's wrong...yet...but I really want him to show me where he gets these ideas.

www.StolenHonor.com

Okay, stevepjc, just to make you happy, I taped that movie the other day, but I've been so busy muttering to myself about .... you know, that I haven't watched it yet. But I'll watch it tomorrow morning and get back to you. It has something to do with his statement? Yes or no?

Yes or no? Don't waste my time.

Okay, to bed, people, I will watch it tomorrow, promise. A review to follow--thumbs up or thumbs down. Goodnight all.

It's no worse than what Michael Moore tried to get across with F9/11. Really will make you stop and think though.

It's a smear piece no doubt about that. Again though it's no worse than Moore's smear on Bush.

I just finished reading that statement.
I don't think it can be easily summarized.

Kerry made some valid points.
It WAS a futile war, perhaps one not managed for victory.
And, yes, there WERE evidentally a lot of things done wrong over there, as revealed by many news accounts and specific documents during the sixties.

Nonetheless, sweeping generalizations regarding the many, many military personnel who served over there will be tenuous to prevail . . .

The statement that "he painted any American serviceman serving in Vietnam as a was criminal" is NOT necessarily valid from the account I read from the webpage http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/
HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/
Manifestos/VVAW_Kerry_Senate.html

(Sorry, that webpage address didn't get properly connected together on my post.)

Perhaps it may turn out to be that this text is not the full, unedited speech. But, barring that, I stand by my evaluation (agreeing with ShadowMom) that Kerry (in the account presented on the webpage) did not indict all the soldiers.

History...is ususally HIS-story...written by men...and we KNOW men are ALWAYS "fair and balanced"...and, history is generally the product of the victors...as in Egypt where a vindictive ruler was often known to try to eradicate all traces of a ruler they did not like.

History is not a clear, objective depiction of events as they actually happened. It was never that way since the time of Herodotus...
http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/herodotus/

Also, history is slanted in favor of those civlizations who have chosen to develop a written language.

History is not now, nor ever has been, an exact science....it is at best, a meandering stream, tainted by the stench and color of those who choose to dabble in its reporting.

"History is written by the victors."- Winston Churchill
http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/Misc%20Topics/history_or_his-story.htm

http://www.halexandria.org/dward006.htm

assorted links:
http://welcome-to.chiangmai-chiangrai.com/ancient_historical.htm

http://hnn.us/articles/1247.html

http://www.besthistorysites.net/

"awehr: The name calling does convince the justness of your views and I will not stoop cuch childishness. I may expect such speech from my elementary school students but resorting to callin me an idiot tells me all I want to know about your character or lack thereof.

Furthermore, whether I misspelled Isaacson's name or not does not take away from the fact that he was running against Denis Maget for Zell Miller's senate seat. You really need to get your facts straight."

ok.. the facts.

you voted for isaakson, who doesnt even know what legislation is floating around the hill.

You made a very careful choice and did a lot of research i suppose.. considering you misspell his name. (that is sarcastic btw)

I suppose if you dont think its idiotic to choose people solely based on party line i feel sorry for you. Maybe you just throw money at cars solely because it has the right nameplate?

The name calling is simply pointing out the obvious.

In all honestly if youre an academic then you should be doing enough research on the cadidate you vote for to know how his name is spelled by now.

I will even help correct your historical misinformation by pointing out where you can find accurate facts.


How am i to trust a tenth grade world history text when tenth grade AMERICAN history perveys the same inaccurate myths...

I go with code.. history is written by the most dominant nations.. in this case its written by english speaking peoples who dont want their precious home nations cast in a bad light.

Need i remind you that encyclopedias from the turn of the last century described mexicans as lazy by nature.

I've been behind the times I guess. I fail to see how typo errors and misspellings on the internet is some kind of measure on intelligence. I knew a college professor with two doctorates and he cant type to save his life. Does that lessen his intelligence? I think not. Lets cut out the anal retentiveness when it comes to people's typing abilities and stick to good discussion.

steve.. good point..

I've been lauded for my writing, but subsequent years on IRC have eroded my abilities. It happens to the best of us, but this is not a case of simple misspelling.

This was the name of a congressman he voted for, not one word out of a vast vocabulary which he may not have used for some time.

If he did his research he would have seen the name in writing enough times to spell it correctly as if it were second nature.

Perhaps it was rash to call him stupid for that, i think it would be better to more accurately direct my criticism toward his terrible judgement in this situation.

Carla, thanks for posting Eric Zorn's column and Kerry's testimony on Vietnam. I'll send that to my son. He voted on Tuesday for the first time. He is so frustrated by the outcome of this election because so many of his fellow students who voted for Bush did so because of religion...They are opposed to abortion and homosexuality. They do not want to consider any other issues. They vote as a group. And there is fear and hatred. They tend to spout love and faith in the Lord, but don't associate with anyone of a different race or belief.
Like Sherm, I was raised Catholic and Democrat. But I have never voted straight party, and I am not a practicing Catholic.
I think some people voted for Bush out of fear that Kerry would take away their guns and bibles. That he would relinquish control of our country to foreign nations. That he would diminish our ability to protect ourselves from terrorists. These ideas were promoted by the Republicans, churches, and the NRA and subsequent tv ads perpetuated it. Most people don't go to factcheck.org to check out the truthfulness of the ads. They watch the ads and they believe the ads.
The FCC will continue to allow the corporations to grow. Those who supported Bush, like Sinclair Broadcasting (which already owns 24% of the television market) and Clear Channel, will be able to expand. Ashcroft and the FBI will continue to work for the MPAA and the RIAA.

Like DemandRelevance and ShadowMom, I would like Mike2212 to explain his conclusions about Kerry's testimony on the Vietnam War. Are we missing something?

Code, great links! I'll read more later on. Thanks.
Mike, from a history teacher's perspective, please comment on those links, too.

Uh,

awehr

"To give you some background.. i am someone who lives in a state of personal disconnection which can only be compared to living life through a huge panel of soundproof bulletproof glass. I'm able to view almost everything with objectivity".

Thats off the wall. Are you the boy in the bubble?

"i am someone who lives in a state of personal disconnection which can only be compared to living life through a huge panel of soundproof bulletproof glass. " That sounds a lot like .... Dubya!!

One thing I think Americans should hear is the reaction from your closest Ally, the United Kingdom

here is the front page from the "G2" commentary supplement to The Guardian newspaper.

http://methlabs.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=385

The Mirror ran with "How can 58,941,293 people be so DUMB?"
Another tabloid went with "WAR MORE YEARS"
Others chose pictures of a depressed Kerry on the front cover.

Something like 70% of this country would have liked Kerry to get in, and less than 10% prefer Bush (the remaining votes going to other candidates).

I know the typical reaction is "we don't care what you think!", but the UK is your closest ally. We went into Iraq with you when very few other countries would even consider it. We've stood by you when everything else was bad for you.

However, this election just polarized us very strongly against you. It used to be considered suicide to talk about stronger European relations, but now the opposite is true: any candidate that speaks in favour of America stands little chance of electoral success.

There is a huge surge in support now for the pro-European Liberal Democrats in our polls. If you want to know what this election MAY have done, it may have lost America a long-standing ally, especially if a pro-EU candidate gets in our election next year.

Without Britian, America will stand alone on many issues, and the chances are now that it won't be the only superpower for much longer - it can't afford to stand alone.

When you stop meddling in our affairs, we'll stop telling you who to vote for.

What i could never figure out. Is why do we have to have the election results by 12:00 am. When the polls close at 7:00 pm.

Who says, "We don't care." You must have been listening to the White House again. I was watching Link TV, and it seems like most of the heads of the European governments (France, Germany, and Spain to mention a few) are saying they want to work with Dubya, but most of the people on the streets don't seem to be happy. Guess what? There's a whole bunch of us over here who aren't happy, either.

Dubya wants to bring us together I know how he can do that. All he has to do is step down and give it to Kerry. After all it was a fixed election. No way to have a recount. No proof that he won it. It was fixed. He will never win us over. Not me anyway.

Yes, George screwed over Europe, and I feel bad for Tony Blair, who stood so nobly with us after 9/11.

It's shocking how provincial so many Americans are, never having traveled and sitting on their asses watching tv.

Including certain college-educated, Bush-voting, never-been-to-Europe-but-I've-taken-cruises members of my own family.

Carla, I felt bad for Tony Blair, too, until I heard him say he would not apologize for siding with Bush and refused to admit they were both wrong. Now I think he's painted himself into a corner, and can't get out of it. As Bush goes, he will go. But I don't think the British will put up with too much nonsense from him anymore. They've gotten kind of independent over there, haven't they? Maybe it has something to do with the BBC, and media control. Something to look into, maybe.

Blair went to war in iraq without popular support here, you can expect a LANDSLIDE defeat in a year, that is how strongly people feel here.

As for the newspaper headlines, when 70% of the country hates (and I mean that word) Bush its wise to go with public opinion.

The BBC are being really balanced about this, and theres certainly no bias thats twisting the facts on any news station (except on Bush-supporting Sky, which I note with pleasure is losing viewers to the BBC).

However, the population of the UK is very liberal. Blair was elected as a liberal candidate. When the population elects a libeal candidate, but he switches to right-wing policies in his second term, backing the most hated American leader in decades, people get annoyed.

Also here many people did not believe the evidence about Iraq, or the "motives" that were presented - the people of the UK travel a lot more than people in the US. We read more, and the basic level of education and literacy here are higher.

Since the US poll shows people who have better educations voted for Kerry more, its no surprise that we supported him.

We're not independant, we're liberal, and have been for more than a decade.

Just remember, there are 48% of us who are extremely depressed. We tried to oust him. We failed.

We're pulling ourselves together. We will be vigilant and hopeful.

Please don't abandon your American friends or tar us all with the same brush.

Dubya can say what he wants about our success in Iraq, but people in other countries obviously don't agree with him. I just read this story about the lack of security in Iraq: International medical aid group to leave Iraq - Escalating violence, targeting of aid workers prompt decision
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6406039/

TheRealJFM--I meant that as a compliment. It seems the more repressive things get here, the more liberal and independent-minded the British become. I love it!! Seems we have forgotten this country is supposed to be about tolerance--now you're only tolerated if you're on the right. Education is a very large part of the problem. We have to learn to question authority all over again. Let the lesson begin.

ShadowMom :

I appologize, I took that as meaning the UK is going for crackpot little parties or something

Thanks for the support.

Sorry for not getting back so soon to respond but teachers in my school are in the building from 6:30am to 4:00pm Mon-Fri. However I wanted to clear some things up.

First, from awehr's initial comment about the United States being responsable for the mess in the Middle East. If you are talking post 1967, then the United States has been involved in the area in a major way. However, from 1945 until the middle 1960s, the United Kingdom played a greater role as the empire retracted. When Iraq threatened the newly formed Kuwait in June 1961, it was Britain that sent troops to the country to face off the Iraqis. From 1952 until 1957, British armed forces aided the government of Oman against the Saudi-supported Omani Liberation Army. British presence in the area ended with the withdrawal from Cyprus in 1979. Both France and Britain were major arms suppliers to Israel until the Six Day War of 1967. The first military deployment by United States armed forces in the region post World War 2, occurred when I believe Eisenhower sent the Marines to Lebanon in the late 1950s. Not counting 6th Fleet deployments to the Eastern Mediterranean and the Israelis shooting up the USS Liberty in 1967, I believe America first became involved in the Middle East in 1973 when the United States resupplied Israel with weapons drawn directly from US units. I was not saying the United States was blameless but the mess in the Middle East did not blow up overnight, I am saying that the initial causes for the conflict go far beyond the last 30 years.

Code, et al: If a book that has a full bibliography is unacceptable as a source for World History, then what do you consider to be an proper resource? (I am being completely serious here.)

As for the comment about John Kerry, I stated that it was my opinion and I make no apologies for voting against him and Edwards. As for Johnny Isakson (correct spelling this time), I read over the bills he sponsored (All 300+), read through his views on defence, education, (On his Congressional webpage) and did not see anything Nazi like on them. To be perfectly honest, when I voted Tuesday, it was reported that Kerry was leading and I wanted to make sure we had a divided government. I am still going through Kerry's votes in the Congressional record from 1989 and am at odds with his record on defense (B-2 bill in 1989) and foreign policy. I was particularly against his suggestion about having American troops under UN command. I had thought about voting Libertarian but realized it was going to be either Bush or Kerry in the White House. I chose the conservative candidate over the liberal one. If you don't agree, that's fine. However, I am at ease with my vote and participating in the election.

"I still have no faith in Kerry's ability as Commander-in-Chief due to his record as a senator from Massachusetts, his testimony in front of the senate where he painted any American serviceman serving in Vietnam as a war criminal."

"As for the comment about John Kerry, I stated that it was my opinion..."

Well, Mike, ". . . due to his testimony in front of the senate where he painted any American serviceman...."
sounds like a statement more than an opinion.

Well, when Osama bin Laden is planning his next attack on America, perhaps he can take into account the "political" map and leave the states that didn't vote for Bush alone.

I seriously doubt that bin Laden will keep such a promise of security for those states that didn't vote for Bush.

CodeWarror, do you know anything about Dubya's family having had financial dealings with bin Laden's family dating all the way back to 1978?

Are we done yet?

(hell no.)

Yes, I agree with DemandRelevance and the many others that we tend to stray WAY off-topic here...

...but GET USED to it folks. The country has become polarized. (a very BAD thing in some ways for OUR issues because we are now UNABLE to separate the "non" music/RIAA/p2p/etc...)

It all goes together...

sorry,

please don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the message.

Shmoo, good points (as always).

BTW, I just had to throw this into the mix:
Instead of the usual Pledge of Allegiance, how about an updated version that might more closely reflect present-day reality? Maybe it could go like this. . .

"I pledge my misgivings about the United States of America - one nation, splintered and polarized, under Neocons, with liberty and justice under assault.
God help us all."

uh ditto...
"...- one nation, splintered and polarized, under Neocons, with liberty and justice under assault.
God help us all."

There is intelligent life here

or so goes the rumor...

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." —Saginaw, Mich., Sept. 29, 2000

If you guys keep voting for a guy that says shit like this...it's your own fault.

you know .... reading all this NOW? Makes me think to ask the question, WOULD you all vote the same if you had to vote for Mc Cain or Obama? :thinking: