May I point to the 800-pound gorilla sitting in the middle of these political discussions.. and I only do this because the posters here have the fervor and curiosity to do the homework.. That big gorilla I speak about is Racism.

Am I the only african-american here? Sure sounds like it sometimes because certain assumptions keep emerging in the posts. The Ku-Klux-Klan was/is a terrorist organization composed of "Christian,""upstanding" members of many communities in this country.. Yeah, you say, that has nothing to do with me, but the ideas of racism are like a low-range hum that permeates all the politics here.. you can hear it but no one wants to admit it.

Now, hear me out.. Bush, by speaking to WHITE people, indicates that he is going to lead and save WHITE people. ..and don't give me any of that token-black stuff.. Condeleeza this and Colin that and Michael whatever.. those people act more WHITE than WHITE folks.. now my definition here is that WHITE is NOT A RACE!!

Again.. White is NOT a race.. got it?? WHITE is a MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER. Racists consider themselves, somehow, superior and separate from "the rest of us" and need protection and "to be safe" from the world. That is why we jumped a non-christian, brown country.. People who call themselves WHITE also think that they have SUPERIOR DOMINANCE over all .. so we can suck oil out of anywhere to power our huge, gas-guzzling suv's that turn the riches of the earth into pollution that kills us all, then invent air-conditioning and hepa filtering to protect "their" children.. People who identify with this think they have the right to tell "any inferior being" such as women, what and when and how to do anything to their bodies. That is why you see proliferate ads and giveaways for Viagra and other sex-enhancing products, and NO reference to condoms, education, or safe-sex for women.. and no power over her sexual or reproductive rights.. after all, you have control, right??

Apply this cultural standard to yourself.. and a whole lot of this ultrareligious rhetoric begins to make sense. The more you are aware of this gorilla, the more you will focus on some of the codewords and some of the real issues that are surfacing to further divide this country.. from Willie Horton to the swift-boat argument, this drones on... Notice, for instance, that none of the swiftboat critics of Kerry in this discusting political adare brown, or asian, or anything.. that is a clue. Notice that every Bush ad has no (ok, maybe one token) black folk.. no where.. Notice the theme of "safety from the world" the unknown, the uncontrollable.. and need I mention, Soccer moms became Security moms?? Are you beginning to see what I am talking about.. and one more thing, do NOT bore me with the "that was my forefathers and not me" :poop: because if you enjoy the residual wealth and RESULTS of their actions, you are, as a citizen of this country, involved.. if you can heed the words laid out in the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, which was laid out by our .. as you say ... forefathers, you can grow up and accept the bad stuff as well.

As we enjoy our freedoms established generations ago, we can acknowledge the priveleges we inherited as well.. OK, that is all for now. I hope this stimulate some honest, intelligent discussion.. and, please, leave the name-calling, flame throwers at home.

Read "A Desperate White House" by Margaret Kimberly, which is an excellent commentary in one of my favorite sites, www.blackcommentator.com In fact, check out the whole site, which intelligently discusses politics from the black side of this American Culture, with plenty of links for more information/opinion.

I really don't have much experience on this topic however race is always played in political campaigns. Candidates always reach out to minorities. pandering for votes. I'm not sure if that qualifies as racism or pandering. The Willie Horton ad was indeed playing on racial fears and prompted me to vote for Dukakus. Weather it's a concious effort of racism or pandering to a voting block like attending activities important to women or Catholics I'm not sure.

It's definatly a topic to examine and both parties are full of White rich men so we need to keep an open eye to this. One thing however, dispite all our bickering here about the issue I really don't see any racism in our comments. if it's hidden, it's not intentional and could either be lack of sensitivity, lack of education, or over sensitivity from others. all three are possibilities.

Personally I have to disagree with one thing and I may have read it wrong. but White is a race. I'm white, therefore I'm of the caucasion race, proud of it and don't consider myself (or everyone I know) a MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER. Racism is not just unique to the white race.

Absolutely, speak the truth. I give Code Warrior hell on the phone very day about the Waco crowd, home of Bob Jones University and the Branch Davidians. It is ALL ABOUT CODE WORDS. This has only recently come to be interpreted as signals to the fundamentalists, rather than racist talk. And Waco and Crawford Texas are ground zero for the Late Rise of Rise of the New Confederacy.

Plantation owners.

Cheap disposable labor.

Let them workers flow across the Rio Grande. When they get sick, move them out to Florida, California, or Wash Stae for seasonal work. No need to concern oneself with work conditions, OSHA or workers' comp, unions, or health care. The same third world exploitation of labor that goes on time immemorial.

The kind of conscripted laborers that were shot, whipped, worked and bled to death on the levee construction projects in the state next over, Mississippi, in the recent 1920's. Missisippi was The former center of the White Citizen's Council. Now that honor has passed over to Texas.

Mary, I have spent one tough year back home here in Virginia, the site of the Brown vs Board of Education battle zone. In Prince Edward County, for six years the public schools were closed, rather than integrate. Those kids in the late fifties were denied education for SIX YEARS!

So the code words were always in place, and it was only righteous that Trent Lott got spanked for his code speech. But still it goes on and on.

I have lost some focus recently, it is true, Mary, and been diverted by the waving of the bloody flag of fundamental religion and the battles over Darwin and Row v Wade. It really is and has always been about racism, Mary. The code words are for that purpose.

If it hasn't been said plainly enough, we all admire your unwavering committment and exhortations for us all to go out and vote, and convince our neighbors of the same.

Thank you for that.


I think you may have shown some interest in Phillip Roth's latest book, "The Plot Against America." http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618509283/102-7971150-1100958?
v=glance

This is the alternative time-continuum plot that speculates what if Lindberg had become President of the US, and the assumption that the America First fascist crowd would have let England burn and fall into the ocean.

I am fascinated with Phillip Roth's canon of work. He is a formidable and cranky intellect, and "The Human Stain" is sorta intersting. (Not the movie--please....) But again, I don't think a white person should dare to presume he could walk in a black person's shoes or write a book plot about it.

So the secondary wave of criticisms are rolling in from the critics at NY Times and Wash Post about "The Plot Against America," saying, hey, sure Lindberg probably would have set loose the hounds of genocide against the American Jews---but you all seem to have forgotten one thing.

The vast waves of BLACK LYNCHINGS that took place all over America between 1918 and 1964. That amounts in itself to a dispora, does it not?

And here's a little tidbit to chew on:

WACO holds the world's records for lynchings in that period.

I rest my case.

Same here comp. I'm not sure what she meant by white. She said Bush is speaking to white people and she defines white as not a race.

I'm not sure if that was for convenience purposes so she could refer to a specific group of people in her article or if she actually believes that.

Mary is right. Scientifically there is no such thing as races because there is no
unambiguous way to describe it.

Species are valid concepts because the test is non-ambiguous: If two individuals can breed
and if their descendants can breed also then they are of the same species.

But let see about races. My skin is white and the genetic difference between me and my
brother is let say 1000. The genetic difference between my black neighbor and I will be
typically 1001. But it could be 1002 with my other "Caucasian white" neighbor. How
you can classify us into races?

The greatest stupidity of all about race came from the Nazi when they invented the Jew
race. There is no Jew race. Jew is a religion and a culture not a race.

The real issue there is not to fall for those that try to convince you that you are from a
superior category of human beeing and that your neighbor because he look different is a
danger.

This is true racism is still there harming our societies. We should gather together and fight this type of inferior people regardless of our skin color culture, religion or political party affiliation starting there in USA.

technicly if there's no such thing as races, then there's no such thing as racism.

The Jewish people are unique in that they are a Religion, a culture and a race.

even so if white is not a race, I'm still not comfortable with being labled

WHITE is a MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER.

Sorry I know racism, sexism, and agism is still out there and a serious problem to be addressed, but I think we're reaching a bit far here.

For a biologist there is no race period.

But there is racism and the racism consist in trying to separate people into "race" weaken them by division and control them. The racists are those stupid enought to go with it. I am sorry to say that these racists are prominent and dangerous. Some imfamous example are Milochevic, Ariel Sharon, and Ben laden.

Those that fall in the trap and think that their ethnic group are better than the other group are racist. Are you Racist compmore?

Technically, there is such a thing as race.

And biologically, there are definite differences in the genetic makeup of pure blacks vs. pure whites vs. pure asians. The differences are pretty small, but it's not like all races are the same. And it's hard to draw a line on an individual's race since such a high percentage of people have a mixed heritage. Should I make the disclaimer that I don't think that any of them are "better than the other"? Judging from the above post, I better cover my bases.

"Jew is a religion and a culture not a race."

It's an ethnicity, just to clarify.

Mary, I completely understand your point of view. You've made very good observations. Tom, thanks for your insight.
I'm a Christian, actually raised Catholic. The religious speech of this administration and its supporters makes me very, very uncomfortable. I attended Catholic schools for 12 years before leaving my neighborhood for college. I grew up with a FEAR of God. A fear of dying in my sleep with SINS on my soul (fighting with my brother and sister two times, disobeying my parents one time). A fear of going to hell. A fear that my maternal grandparents, who were (shudder) Protestant, would die before I could convert them to Catholicism and therefore not go to heaven. So, what's my point? Fear is a strong emotion. Fear can be used to control. Convincing people that you have all the right answers because you have strong religious convictions is all about control. Lead the sheep. Tell them to be afraid, be very afraid. Then tell them that you will take care of them, because you love them and the whole country. And again, because you love them so much, you will kill their enemies - the ones who have evil in their hearts - the ones who don't respect life - the culture of life - pro-life - anti-choice. Just leave everything to the government who is guided by God.

Lachatte, you could be one of the Pryor kids. Do you watch American Dreams (Sundays on NBC 8:00 Eastern time)? I absolutely love this show and it always makes me weepy.

Ever since my parents switched to the Republican party in the mid 60's, I knew it was basically about racism.

No, I don't Carla. But my daughter does. I'll ask her about the Pryor kids tonight.

Compmore.. it doesn't surprise me, given your previous posts, that you have some understandings to gain to realize what I am explaining here. First.. do you KNOW any black folks? Live in your neighborhood, maybe dialog with more than the tokens at work? If not, check yoself no-1.. A monolithic cultural environment.. a la Friends on TV.. is NOT AMERICA.Is your church integrated, addressing issues of all cultures, any outreach, both now and when you were growing up?? No? Check yoself no 2.. You choose to call yourself WHITE.. that means that you align yourself with the culture that promotes these activities.. What are you, really? Human.. Irish-American, Italian-American.. see what I mean.. all these Europeans with proud ancestries arrived here, and became not extensions of the old country.. but blended into WHITENESS, therefore giving a lazy identification, by skin color, of the new culture.. and it extends to this day.. want more dialog? Check "Working on the Chain Gang," by Walter Mosley. It is an excellent book about explaining what I am talking about.
Want more about residual priveledge?? A labor department report was issued THIS MONTH, stating that the average net worth of "White" households is not 14 percent, but 14 TIMES the net worth of "Black" families.. Where did all that money come from, and why is it so unequal??

I don't know what you're talking about with my previous posts. I'm not a racist never have been. yes I know blacks so what?

You choose to call yourself WHITE.. that means that you align yourself with the culture that promotes these activities..

that is as much of a sterotype as you are fighting. just because someone doesn't agree doesn't make them a racist. does everyone who calls themselves an arab align themselves with the radicals cutting off peoples heads? Just because I don't hold with the far leftist bleeding heart everyones a victim of the white opressors doesn't make me a racist. I'm as much proud of being white caucasian as you are being African American. I respect that in you, doesn't sound like you respect that in me.

BTW I do agree with all the inequalities of the workplace and that is an issue that continues to need to be addressed

Jazzmary -- Have you seen the Chris Rock riff on the difference between being rich and being wealthy?

Bush is on the side of the wealthy.

The very first sign of not understanding is fervent denial.. and it ALWAYS begins with the statement... "I am not a... " and if calling yourself white is a stereotype, it is a mighty widely practiced one. No, disagreement does not make you a racist, denial does, however.. because you refuse to see OR investigate. That you KNOW is merely enough, and nothing more needs to be done, because obviously you have the true answer. Look inside at your statments again, Compmore, because you continue to exhibit the arrogance that accompanies this cultural standard.. Go back, read up, discuss HONESTLY amongst the diversity (if any) that you come into contact with, and get back with me. BTW.. I do not call myself Black, per se, for the same reasons.. RACE is not a COLOR, it is a CULTURE..

I never said I refused to see or investigate. I mearly made the statement that I didn't see the point you were making. look at my first post.
suddenly I'm being called a racist. who's the closed minded one here.

you've already made up your mind so there's nothing I can say or do to convince you. has nothing to do with denial. I don't deny there are serious problems in equal treatment and issues that need to be addressed. I am not racist and I say that with pride. We all have different life experiences and our desire to understand each other works both ways. I have read up on it, took college classes on the subject, I just have a slightly different perspective.

Respect works both ways. you've gotta give it to get it.

"May I point to the 800-pound gorilla sitting in the middle of these political discussions.. and I only do this because the posters here have the fervor and curiosity to do the homework.. That big gorilla I speak about is Racism."

George Bush is not a racist. He loves the brown people. I know because he said so:

"Some of the debate really center around the fact that people don't believe Iraq can be free; that if you're Muslim, or perhaps brown-skinned, you can't be self-governing and free. I strongly disagree with that."

George Bush - April 13, 2004

So if you are not in favor of the war, then you are obviously a racist.

But seriously, I think it's interesting how Bush flipped the race card on that one. I read Kimberly's article and she is on the money.

"Candidates always reach out to minorities. pandering for votes."

Actually you are wrong, compmore. Bush shunned the NAACP in order to pander for votes from his base. So he did the opposite of what you are saying.

Bush also twisted the truth when he claimed that he met with the Congressional Black Caucus in the debate. What really happened:

"The caucus members got to see Bush only after showing up at the White House gate and refusing to leave until the president agreed to meet with them, according to the group's leader. ...

Caucus members were greeted by Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and national security advisor Condoleezza Rice. But they were told flatly, "The president is not on the premises," recalled Candice Tolliver, the group's communications director.

Caucus members then said they wouldn't leave until they could meet with Bush. Fifteen minutes later, the president showed up."

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/002763.html

Notice how when the black people show up, the White House sends out some fellow darkies to meet them? Too funny.

..where is it that I call you anything, compmore?? It is your REACTION that I am addressing. I can appreciate that you are proud. but pride is the problem.. it is humility and humanity that bridges the cultural gaps here. That is what I am getting at.. we need to understand each other, not stand in our repective corners and stare ominously, waiting for the next "assumption." Read my first post, it says nothing about compmore there. And mroop, I get it.. Thanks for your imput on this.. it seems we have common ground after all..

mroop you GET it!!

perhaps because of our individual experiences we're both a bit sensitive.

Jazzmary, your post would have made perfect sense to me too if I would have understood your definition of white. I understand what you're trying to say, but you're not saying it right. Race exists, and I'm white. So what?

My roomate is black.. I'm not sure what knowing black people has to do with anything, but since you asked comp, I'll answer that ahead of time.

And I think comp's reaction a result of him being white and you saying he's part of a murderous culture of separation of power (I can't believe you're calling white people this and getting away with it, but whatever). Maybe what you meant to call them is "white facists." How about that?

Race is not culture.

Ethnicity is a culture.

ethnicity is culture, rather.

"Again.. White is NOT a race.. got it?? WHITE is a MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER."

and black is not a race either.. it is a culture of grudges based on color and "world owes me" separatism.

If you have dark skin, but do not behave as if you belong to a people separate from the rest of america, then you are not included in my above statement which is equally ignorant as the quote at the top of this post.

BTW.. I am a Jew.. i guess this makes me a money hungry powermonger. (lol)

All i say is.. every faction which currently exists has had its share of enslavement, persecution, etc. The christians didnt learn from being fed to the lions, african americans didnt learn from segregation, and jews (particularly fundamentalist zionists) did not learn from the continuous war and terrorism in an area they could easily move on from.

the overall point:

REVERSE RACISM IS NO BETTER THAN NORMAL RACISM... period.

How can you honestly dialog without knowing the true definitions.. This is a hard subject to discuss because.. looks like I AM the only african-american here.. awehr.. I agree that every culture has it's good points and bad.. true.. and I said in my last post that I don't consider myself black, either..I was pointing to the unsaid reasons why people would vote against their economic interests, and support a candidate who they think will "protect" them without any more work or thought on their part. I am trying to elicit some kind of honest look at something that scares people.. and there is no basis for it.
Sherminator, the fact that you think that you can tell me how to express my points, "You're not saying it right," indicates an automatic assumption that you can express my words for me better.. turn that around and if I did that to you, would you start flaming? Be Honest, now. I never said race did no exist, per se, but it is in the wrong construct. Human beings cannot be divided by the mere color of their skin.. it is a cultural divide.
White, Black, Yellow, etc are Cultural entities, with the outside coverings of human beings as the easy identifier. awehr.. racism is racism, true.. what is this reverse business.. please explain.

Well said.

"If you have dark skin, but do not behave as if you belong to a people separate from the rest of america, then you are not included in my above statement..."

Kind of the point I tried to make earlier. Maybe those people that are included in the statement should be given a name other than "white" unless she actually thinks it applies to all whites.

"Sherminator, the fact that you think that you can tell me how to express my points, "You're not saying it right," indicates..."

I didn't say you didn't say it right. I suggested that you didn't say it right. Consider it a plea for clarification.

Ok...please define your use of "white" while keeping in mind that white is a race.

Walter Mosley, in his book, Workin' On The Chain Gang, says "What black people have experienced as a group for centuries many whites now experience as solitary and alienated individuals. In their various groups white Americans might feel that they belong, that there is a group spirit that looks out for them. But individually they suffer the barbs of bureaucratic indifference and the vicissitudes of corporate whims like everyone else. At the group level a white man might identifiy with the white, male, Christian president. But that identifications means very little on the unemployment line or when the HMO refuses to supply possibly life-saving technology.

by the way.. I do not consider the posters here in a "racial" way.. I do not know the color of your skin.. by your definitions.. I only know you by the thoughts you express.. And, to me, that is a much better way to know a person. So next time you look into the mirror, look past the skin-level, which is a requirement to get beyond the constructs of this current culture.. and know that common ground can exist between this vast array of diverse human beings. So, sherminator, what do you think of the urban rappers, then.. they certainly exhibit a different culture.. bet that you have an opinion on that.. but go deeper and ask yourself on what is that opinion based? Just the color of skin? or the cultral assumptions that arise from looking just skin deep?

I agree with you. But from the article it just sounded like you were saying there is no race and that whites are a murderous culture etc.

I do have an opinion on urban rappers. In general, their music sucks and they dress like they're begging people to not take them seriously. It isn't about race though. Black & white Kids in the suburbs mimick the way they dress & act and look equally dumb. And I base those opinions on the values I have that are a result of the culture I grew up in. For example, if you want to be respected, look respectable.

I agree with what you're saying here. I just don't totally understand what you said in what you said in the article.

I'm currently a light brown I guess...owing to my Native American genes...maybe some red, but I fade a bit in winter....

As George Carlin says,...Colin Powell "happens to be black"...but for all intents and purposes...he and Condi are "house n*****s"/ Steppenfetchits for Bush.

I was just thinking of the Demo catch phrase that is going out of style..
"Help is on the Way"...when you hear that...do you ask "What color is that help"?

As white is not a race, neither is black a race.

But, I just think we all need to get beyond trying to put everyone into a class or group and see each other as people....maybe someday that "all men are created equal" will ring with more sincerity once all men are TREATED equally.

But, I just think we all need to get beyond trying to put everyone into a class or group and see each other as people....

I couldn't agree more. I was once almost fired as a supervisor because a native american employee didn't like a decision I made and blurted out that I did it because of the color of his skin. I lost all respect for him.

BTW just curious, I wonder how Colin Powell (who grew up poor in New York) and Condiliza Rice feel about being called a token just because they've achieved something great in their lives. Not all African Americans who aspire to develop their skills in our culture are tokens or sell outs. Powell I know works with underprivliged African American youths to give them hope to aspire for better things in their lives.

Just because you shouldn't try to put people in a group doesn't mean that people don't belong to groups.

Judging me because I'm white is a bad thing. But admitting that I belong to a group called "white race of people" isn't a bad thing. It's a fact. Why does it seem like some people are trying to deny it?

"I wonder how Colin Powell (who grew up poor in New York) and Condiliza Rice feel about being called a token..."
How about "used"? They added credibility to this Republican administration. They spoke to the U.N., and the press and the Senate, repeating the false information that was given to them. Now their credibility has been tarnished.

Sadly, sometimes these labels are necessary. Suppose I see a "white" man snatch someone's purse, how do I describe him if not "white" or "Caucasian?"
And compmore, I don't care what color, gender, heritage, religion, or politics Condi professes--she's a flat-out liar, and whether she's fronting for Bush or doing it all on her own, I don't care. She is not to be trusted. And THAT is a label she deserves.

shadowmom that's fine and ok as long as it's not a result of her ethnic background. I don't agree but that the difference of our opinions.

If Colin Powell felt used he would say so. he's a smart man, not a puppet. He honestly believed the information given to him, as did Kerry, and most democrats and the president. Powell was doing his job and when he found out the information was wrong he admitted that. he still believed in what he was doing.

Time will tell, comp.

"He honestly believed the information given to him"

Where do you get this crap from? Powell was the guy fighting against going to the UN and spewing that bullshit. In the end he decided to follow orders like a good military man. Anyone who has read anything about this situation knows it. If Bush wins Powell will not be coming back.

"U.S. News and World Report revealed that during a Feb. 1 rehearsal of his U.N. speech urging war, a frustrated Powell threw his script in the air and said "I'm not reading this. This is bull----."

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Among_the_deceivers_060503.htm

Damn compmore with the misinformation again!

You know the saddest thing...after the last four years in the Sunshine State, I think she's right. There's too much systematic prejudice going on in this state. And it gets attention from the press, but not the hue and cry it should be getting when you consider how widespread it appears to be.

Thanks, mroop. I know compmore's heart is in the right place, he just needs some encouragement. That was a very encouraging post...

His heart may be in the right place, but he did say that Powell honestly believed the information given to him with no support to back that up. It's simply not true.

It's well known that Powell was the dissenter all along and as a result he was cut out of the loop. Bush used Powell's reputation to further his own sick goals and in the end it is Powell's reputation that has suffered for it.

Compmore may not know it, but he is parroting the Bush propaganda.

Message to compmore - Do some reading on the Office Of Special Plans. The intelligence was cooked to justify the war. It was intentional deception, not an honest mistake.

Where do you get this crap from?

I get it from Powell. he said it in an interview. yes he did fight against it but you know as well as I do any team player gives their imput then backs the final decision by the leader. if they disagree strongly enough, they resign.

I do read mroop. perhaps you should read a little bit about civility. the only reason I've been so strongly opininated these past few weeks is because I'm getting so tired of hearing how terrible everything is. I'm sick of the slanderous, loopsided hateful and personal attacks on everything republician then seeing website links constantly displayed as if that's all thats needed to justify the hatemongering dripping and ozzing off these threads. The conservitive blogs do the same thing to the dems and Kerry and they have all the same kind of Links that "prove" their views.
I'm saying what I believe. I'm sick to death of hearing people here accuse others of being puppets, parrorting, liars, spineless etc just because someone disagrees. You guys have already made up your minds a long time ago. There's no objectiveity here. You people just see stories then hold it up to justify your anomosity. I'm an independent. I agree with so much of what you guys say. But as long as you continue to spourt hateful venum disguised as an objective view of selected facts I will be there. and don't ask for my facts, I will not waste my time supplying them only to have them knocked down. The only respect you have is for those who agree with you.

OK I'll play the game once.

I know this'll get wraped but here are two interviews with powell that showed (at least publicly) he believed they existed and still defended the invasion after doubt was brought about. I know there will be links presented that shows a different story.

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2004&m=February&x=20040203172510ESnamfuaK0.6736109&t=usinfo/wf-latest.html

http://www.command-post.org/archives/007447.html

I don't care if you're an independent or not. You are sadly underinformed.

"I'm getting so tired of hearing how terrible everything is."

Me too. Let's talk about how great everything is. Freedom is coming! I read that on a blog so it must be true.

Ok.. compmore.. give me your absolute working definition of "race" that we all can use to further discussion.

Well, at least you are coming full circle to discuss politics again, which was one of the primary points of my first post. Tell me how we are going to mend and live together after this election. And tell me how spirited discussion is non-respectful.. I am only disrespectful if I am lied to.. and a lot of non-thinking Bushites have lost my respect. Me telling you what your actions mean to me is not disrespectful, it is instructional in nature, so you can know the true impact of what you are saying to people to further your cause or train of thought.

A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics

oh my god, even the dictionary calls it a "group" of people. This plague is everywhere!

(not a thing to do with culture)

"I know this'll get wraped but here are two interviews with powell that showed (at least publicly)"

I know what Powell has said publicly. I just said above that Powell is being a good soldier. He has also denied that he will step down if Bush wins the election. But everyone is reporting otherwise.

"Secretary of State Colin Powell has been a good soldier in public, even as he has had to fight for every small victory against Administration hawks like Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. But he has privately grown more frustrated, and now, sources close to Powell tell Time, he has a firm plan for his exit: he will step down at the end of President Bush’s current term."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,346150,00.html

How about the middle ground, guys.. let's start with the untenable situation that we are in and work to make it better. It's begins with an informed vote. But the Bush crew is actively couching the issues in fear, and I assert, again, that they are not above massaging the "racial" fears of people to gain power.. and, to me, it is a lowbrow approach that leaves scars that will be very slow to heal. And our awareness of how these "racial" codes interact will help to sort out the answers to combat this tatic.. example.. the Dred Scott reference in the debate.. explain to me how that is a code-word tatic.

group ain't race. So physical characteristics are enough?

I look at people from the heart, not from nationality. I won't play word games. I don't care what meaning the word Race comes from. personally I agree with most of what you said in your story. I responded to the remarks about whites. I'm not sure what you ment by that and was a bit offended by what it implied on the surface.

If we want a meaningful discussion the name calling, accusations, and fingerpointing must stop. I'm not going to argue details or semantics. I'm not voting for Bush or Kerry. I'm leaning Nader but am looking at Libritarian.

Spirited discussions are not a problem. discussions where terms like "King George the Cowardly" "F$@# Bush" "parroting the Bush propaganda." "Liar" and insinuating that any one candadate (usually Bush) Intentionally mislead, murdered, has no heart, compassion or brains is not spirited. It's nasty sleezy and is exactly the reason mainstream americans are sick of politics and voting.

I don't care if I convice people of my political cause. the only thing I'm trying to pursuade people here is to be civil and stop this stupidity. If I didn't believe in this site, it's cause and the people here I would've given up a long time ago and left for other sites. I learned so much from everyone here. But the minute nastiness starts I get defensive. I can go on and have no anomosity toward anyone here. even Mroop when he's not slanderous and sarcastic, he has so many great ideas and insights. But I'm realisic enough to know that many people here will not be able to do the same when it comes to me.

I agree, I hate being lied to as well. that's one of the worst things someone can do. but I have to be convinced that Bush INTENTIONALLY lied. he had access to the same information Kerry did. Maybe he's not upfront about the faulty intellegence but in my heart he believed it at the time. no amount of name calling will change my mind.

.. and mroop, where has Condeleeza been lately.. seems after the 911 "testimony," she has been very quiet this election year..

Well, since Compmore has accused me of not being objective, I will say that Kerry is also stoking fear for votes by saying that Bush plans to cut Social Security by 30-45 percent when he has no info to back up the claim.

But regarding Bush and race - when Bush was running for the nomination against McCain it looked like he might lose in South Carolina. So Karl Rove started a whispering campaign that McCain had a black baby. He also used what are known as "push polls", which is when you call on the phone and say, "How would you feel about John McCain if you knew had an illegitimate black baby?"

Just do a google search on Karl Rove and black baby and you'll find plenty of info.

The Dred Scott reference was a code word to anti-abortionists telling them that he would support them. I knew something was up when I heard that during the debate. I was thinking, "Why the hell is he talking about Dred Scott?" I found out the next day.

"Why Bush Opposes Dred Scott
It's code for Roe v. Wade."

http://slate.msn.com/id/2108083/

I read that and I found it disgusting. I wish McCain would've cleaned Bushes clock.

compmore, I would agree that the frivilous name-calling is not good. But you must understand the nuances between "King George the Cowardly" and "parroting the Bush Propaganda." If you lump these two into the same catagory, you are missing the point. One is baseless name-calling, which is bad. The other, if accompanied by substantiating proof, is an observation. Big difference.

But that's the same thing people get mad at for all the time. I call people names and am always completely justified. Just like you!

".. and mroop, where has Condeleeza been lately.. seems after the 911 "testimony," she has been very quiet this election year.. "

I haven't heard much from her lately except for when she tried to defend her mushroom cloud statement a little while ago. I guess they trot her out when they need her. They've also kept Rumsfeld out of the spotlight now that the war is going so badly.

Some classic Rumsfeld lines on the looting of Iraq:

"It's untidy, and freedom's untidy. Free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things."

"The images you are seeing on television, you are seeing over and over and over. It's the same picture of some person walking out of some building with a vase and you see it twenty times. And you think, my goodness, were there that many vases? Is it possible that there were that many vases in the whole country?"

If more folks were honest and aware of the impact of "race" in the election process, and the using of it in dirty politics, these tatics would not be nearly as successful, right. But they do work, and they play on people who do not want to think for themselves. You can identify them pretty well by their distilling everything down to black and white (not race, but shades of nuance.)

sorry the facts does support that things aren't always what Bush says (I can find just as many facts showing Kerry's inconsistancies) but doesn't support the childish conclusions of King George the cowardly and other remarks of that nature. those type of conclusion would never be allowed in an actual debate.

agreed jazzmary. the general populance is swayed by emotional pandering. Individually people are smart. as a group people are stupid. (I include everyone including me in there) Unless we are vigilant

Yeah, mroop, I discovered the true codeword for Dred Scott as well.. and I recall that all Bush could come up with during the debate is that it had something to do with the constitution (he didn't know what, however) And in the back of many minds the name Dredd Scott is a fuzzy lesson from High School history that had something to do with the civil war and that means that it had something to do with black people and that must mean that it is bad and I don't want anything more to do with a a judge who would bring up all this black stuff, or anything like taking away more of my rights.... do you see the spin of thought that I am demonsrating here?

thank you all for a lively discussion. I gotta sleep now.. end of a twelve-hour day. I am surprised that I am not more cranky than this. Goodnight, dmusicites!

"he had access to the same information Kerry did."

Well, I hate to tell you that you are parroting Bush propaganda again. Bush did not have the same information that Kerry did. He had a special unit in the Pentagon that was created for the purpose of cherrypicking intelligence to justify an invasion. As I said above, do a google search on "Office Of Special Plans" and start reading.

Why do you think the CIA is leaking documents all over the place in the past couple months in order to destroy Bush? The Wall Street Journal recently wrote an editorial and called the CIA's attacks a "second insurgency" because they are out to get Bush.

The reason the CIA is out to get Bush is because he used OSP intelligence to justify the war and did an end around on the CIA. Now that the war is going badly he is trying to blame the CIA for faulty intelligence! In return, the CIA is trying to sink Bush. This is unprecedented.

"do you see the spin of thought that I am demonsrating here?"

Yes I do. And now I am also going to sleep.

Here's a start on the Office Of Special Plans:

"Air Force Lt. Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski, who worked in the Pentagon until her retirement, was with the Office of Special Plans: 'What I saw was aberrant, pervasive and contrary to good order and discipline,' Kwiatkowski wrote recently. 'If one is seeking the answers to why peculiar bits of 'intelligence' found sanctity in a presidential speech, or why the post-Saddam occupation has been distinguished by confusion and false steps, one need look no further than the process inside the Office of the Secretary of Defense.' She described the activities of Rumsfeld's Office of Special Plans as, 'A subversion of constitutional limits on executive power and a co-optation through deceit of a large segment of the Congress.'"

"On March 9, 2004, Los Angeles Times' staff reporter Greg Miller writes that during testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee, George J. Tenet, Director of the CIA, revealed that "A special intelligence unit at the Pentagon provided private prewar briefings to senior White House officials on alleged ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda without the knowledge of [the] CIA Director ... [and the] disclosure suggests that a controversial Pentagon office played a greater role than previously understood in shaping the administration's views on Iraq's alleged ties to the terrorist network behind the Sept. 11 attacks, and that it bypassed usual channels to make a case that conflicted with the conclusions of CIA analysts." [5]

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Office_of_Special_Plans

More here:

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=office+of+special+plans&num=100&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=images

saying what I believe from information that I have seen isn't parroting, sorry. just because I haven't read everything you did..... but you do have a point. I know the CIA is pissed at him.

try being more civil and I'll be more responsive.

Well, I guess you see parroting as offensive and I don't see it that way. I will say the Bush propaganda team has been extraordinarily successful at making their viewpoints seem to be the status quo of information. For example, something like 40 or 50 percent of Americans actually believe that Saddam was involved in 9/11. This proves the success of the Bush propaganda.

agreed. now I do see your point. ok I can and do accept that

(Extend a hand) lets work together. You do have a lot to offer.

I can't promise I won't say something rude and offensive. I like a rough and tumble debate with vicious invective. In case you haven't noticed. : )

If you have 20-30 minutes to spare at any point I highly recommend this article for the real neocon agenda in Iraq and how it went so horribly awry. It will blow your mind.

Baghdad Year Zero

Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia

http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html

so it is a concious effort. well if it happens I'll drop from the thread.

This has got to be one of the most energetic topic boards I have ever been on! I wish I had found y'all sooner! Anyway, I'm going to start from the top down. There is a lot of ground to cover, and some extras that I would like to throw in on my own, if you don't mind.

>Lachatte

Fear is a strong emotion. Fear can be used to control.<

Hit the nail on the head, my man!!! No force on Earth is more potent than fear, with the possible exception of hate. More atrocities have come out of fear and hate based on ignorance than I care to think about, this past term being one of them. I mean, color-coded fear days?

>Jazzmary2U

First.. do you KNOW any black folks? Live in your neighborhood, maybe dialog with more than the tokens at work?<

Well, that's interesting. Hampton Roads is predominately a black city, with very little white influence, with the rare exception being in it's officials. And I've got to say I am nonplussed with what I see around here. Mind, I have met a lot of good black people here, people I am proud to know and to call friend. But, for the most part, the place is a hellhole. It's run down, with overinflated rent prices for the region ($1000/mo for 650 sq. ft, plus all utilities, which are monopolized so that they set exorbitant prices) and very little in the way of public works. I mean, they have been working on an overpass for the last decade!! There is a lot of crime, a lot of murders, a lot of drug dealers, and very few honest jobs. I know, the economy is in a slump, but when McDonalds turns you down, that's saying a lot.

>compmore

Just because I don't hold with the far leftist bleeding heart everyones a victim of the white opressors doesn't make me a racist.<

True. That makes you reasonable. This is a topic that cannot be painted in black or white (no pun intended). The lines of distinction are very fuzzy here. I think race is no longer about the color of one's skin, but the attitude that a person reflects. It just so happens that a lot of the time, a certain attitude is represented in a group that happnes to have the same ethnic origin, although it is becoming less and less so.

>gdZiemann

Have you seen the Chris Rock riff on the difference between being rich and being wealthy?<

Well, this is a bit off topic here, but I have two very distinct definitions for rich and wealthy. And no, I haven't seen the Chris Rock bit, but I'll have to look it up now. I love Chris Rock.
Rich: Having a lot of money.
Wealthy: Being able to live at your current or ideal standard of living without working, and being able to sustain that standard of living indefinately thourhg passive income.


>Jazzmary2U

The very first sign of not understanding is fervent denial.. and it ALWAYS begins with the statement... "I am not a... "<

That has to be the biggest, stupidest blanket statement I have ver heard! "I am not a terrorist!" Oops, maybe I am then... No, not understanding is ignorance. Understanding but not caring is stupidity. I am not a is simply a person stating his/her belief at the time. You are basially saying that anybody who denies to themselves or to others that they aren't something, ANYTHING, is in ignorant denial. That just is not so.

>compmore

Respect works both ways. you've gotta give it to get it.<

BRAVO! It's something that my generation has somehow forgotten, and is rubbing off on the older generation at that.

>Jazzmary2U

..where is it that I call you anything, compmore?? It is your REACTION that I am addressing.<

I am losing more respect for you, dear madam. A reaction is still an action, and in this case, it reflects this person's opinions and personal beliefs. Basing a response on an attack of another response is the same as an attack of that person's very character. Thus, you are calling him a racist.

>Jazzmary2U

"What black people have experienced as a group for centuries many whites now experience as solitary and alienated individuals. In their various groups white Americans might feel that they belong, that there is a group spirit that looks out for them. But individually they suffer the barbs of bureaucratic indifference and the vicissitudes of corporate whims like everyone else. At the group level a white man might identifiy with the white, male, Christian president. But that identifications means very little on the unemployment line or when the HMO refuses to supply possibly life-saving technology.<

So, if we are white we are evil, even though whites are just as suspect to the same injustices that others are? Um, that is a contradiction on your opinion if ever I saw one. It also brings up my previous point: it's not about race anymore, it's a bout attitude. Those people are greedy, plain and simple. People may go into a venture to help others, but businesses are ALWAYS out to make money. That's the point of a business after all. I have plans for an upcoming real estate business. I hope to help people get decent homes and living , but I'm not going to do it at a loss either. I'm humanitarian, but I am also lazy, and therefore want to help people out while ensureing that I don't have to work anymore.

>Jazzmary2U

what do you think of the urban rappers, then.. they certainly exhibit a different culture..<

It's a deplorable culture at that! I hate the stuff, but as any good strategist knows, the best way to defend something is to know thine own enemy. It's a culture that promotes the glamorization of murder and drug dealing, the iconization of women as "bitches and hoes" and as more property than real people, the galmorization of indescrete and unsafe sex, of taking what you want regardless of who you hurt, and the propagation and continuation of such a system. Why, do you support that culture?

>Codewarrior

"Help is on the Way"...when you hear that...do you ask "What color is that help"?<

Cut to the core. In the military, we had a similar situation. If there was a fire on your ship, and you broke your leg and coulden't get out of your space on your own, and you saw a hand reach down to lift you up to safety, are you going to give a damn if that hand isn't the same color as yours?

>compmore

BTW just curious, I wonder how Colin Powell (who grew up poor in New York) and Condiliza Rice feel about being called a token just because they've achieved something great in their lives. Not all African Americans who aspire to develop their skills in our culture are tokens or sell outs.<

Compmore, we agree on something here, and as I read more of your posts, the more I start to like you. This little bit was in response to Jazzmary2U, and I have to say that in this light, it seems like Jazzmary2U is exhibiting some of the symptoms of righteous indignation and self-destructive opinions of her, for lack of better term people, and revels in the 'woe is me, pity us' attitude.


>ShadowMom

...I don't care what color, gender, heritage, religion, or politics Condi professes--she's a flat-out liar, and whether she's fronting for Bush or doing it all on her own, I don't care. She is not to be trusted. And THAT is a label she deserves.<

Too true! If Condi was white, would it have made any difference? She still would have been a liar. that was her choice, and the public's opinion of her is based on her actions, not her race. Thanks Shadowmom.

>mroop

In the end he decided to follow orders like a good military man....<

That's exactly what he did, and rightly so for what his background is. He saw, with a deeply ingrained belief from all the way back from boot camp, that contardicting a superior officer was the worst thing a person could do, and in this case, it would have ben treason in his mind.

>mroop

"U.S. News and World Report revealed that during a Feb. 1 rehearsal of his U.N. speech urging war, a frustrated Powell threw his script in the air and said "I'm not reading this. This is bull----."<

I did not know that. That is also the response I would expect out of a good military man; you can have your own opinions, just not in public.

>compmore

yes he did fight against it but you know as well as I do any team player gives their imput then backs the final decision by the leader. if they disagree strongly enough, they resign.<

You have not served in the military, have you? This recent mutiny must have shown you that this is not always true when it comes that that very different culture. You can't just quit the military. That's called desertion, and during time of war, it's punishable by death. Colin once again did what a military man would do: he did not show a divided front to the enemy. To do so would confuse the soldiers and sub-commanders, and lessen the total strength of the military. He made a good decision ot stick with it until the end of the war. He looked out for the best interest of the conflict, regardless of his opinions on it.

>mroop

But he has privately grown more frustrated, and now, sources close to Powell tell Time, he has a firm plan for his exit: he will step down at the end of President Bush’s current term."<

Exactly what I said. Or vice versa, something like that. You said ti first mroop, is what I'm getting at. Now that his opinion is the same as that of the general populace and that of his troops, he is diong what he planned on from the start of this insane war, and leaving it all behind. Good for him.

>Jazzmary2U

group ain't race. So physical characteristics are enough?<

Group IS race. Why are you so adamantely against that? Is Eminem white or black? His ethnic origin is caucasian, but he does not hold the same opinions of those you call 'white'. What is he then? What of the caucasian kids who dress like Dre and Ghostface and Nas? What are they? WHEN WILL YOU BE HAPPY?

>compmore

...and insinuating that any one candadate (usually Bush) Intentionally mislead, murdered, has no heart, compassion or brains is not spirited. It's nasty sleezy and is exactly the reason mainstream americans are sick of politics and voting.<

Aye, but here's the rub: what if it's all true?

>compmore

...but I have to be convinced that Bush INTENTIONALLY lied. he had access to the same information Kerry did.

Coming from a background of politics AND from a family history of involvement in the Intelligence community, I can say that your statement is not true. There is a lot of information that the President is privy to that nobody else is, including certain heads of agencies or bureaus. There has always been a lot of infighting between the different intelligence branches, and nobody eveer wants to share an informant, or mole, or lead. No wonder nothing ever comes out right!


>Jazzmary2U

One is baseless name-calling, which is bad. The other, if accompanied by substantiating proof, is an observation. Big difference.<

Ah, too true! The elections always bring out the worst in people, and everybody is always up in arms in defending how they say what they say, and if you don't agree, you're just being a butthead. We should all be so open-minded; maybe then we could get a good President for a change *and that was not just an attack on Bush alone*.

>compmore

Individually people are smart. as a group people are stupid.<

I don't know about all that. Individually, a lot of people are pretty stupid too. It's just that all the stupid people tend to stick together and create one big stupid overmind.

>mroop

The reason the CIA is out to get Bush is because he used OSP intelligence to justify the war and did an end around on the CIA. Now that the war is going badly he is trying to blame the CIA for faulty intelligence! In return, the CIA is trying to sink Bush. This is unprecedented.<


See? INfighting at it's best! Although it's not really unprecedented. What's so amazing is that it's so public! The government as a whole stopped listening to the CIA back in the late 70's when they told Rreagan and his Cabinet that the Soviets weren't a threat anymore, and that the new threats were coming out of the Mid-East and the fanatic Muslim block. Hmm...............

>mroop

She described the activities of Rumsfeld's Office of Special Plans as, 'A subversion of constitutional limits on executive power and a co-optation through deceit of a large segment of the Congress.'"<

In other words, lying. 1984 anybody? The best way for anybody to swallow a story is to make it with one part truth and two parts lie. That way, you can prove the first part, and get everybody else to swallow the other two parts as stuff that you know because you have access to better information than they do. Machievelli would be proud.

Well now, that was interesting, wasn't it? Since we've all decided to be so honest, why not ask a hard question: do you (meaning everybody individually) think we should still be in Iraq, or should we have left a long time ago, and why do you hold that opinion? Just to see what everybody thinks.

BTW, does anybody know of a good general political forum? I've been dying for one.

wow dude that did blow my mind!!!!! that is some fucked up shit...

He made a good decision ot stick with it until the end of the war. He looked out for the best interest of the conflict, regardless of his opinions on it.

that is exactly what I was trying to say. BTW I was in the military.

My statement about Powell was about being Sec of State. he gave his imput in meetings, disagreed (sometimes strongly) then when the President made his decision, Powell stood behind it.

yes sometimes people are stupid individually. I was making a generalization. which is still true.

Aye, but here's the rub: what if it's all true?

doesn't matter, the general public is still turned off by it. if we want to get people involved in voting we've gotta make it worth their while and an honest debate, not a street braw. I'm still not conviced it was deliberate on his part.

Thank you, nuke, for your thorough commentary.. you are, of course, entitled to your opinions.. I am just trying to bring to the fore the underlying "racial" tatics of this political season.. and they are many and strong. Again, I refer you to the post earlier go to Kimberlys commentary and examine some of what "minorities" deal with in this country. Multiple people have expressed discust at the rap/hip-hop artists.. I brought that up for examination of the complexities of a culture, how the artists expose all kinds of assumptions and predjuices that naturally are an outcropping of the cultures of race in the USA in particular. The whole movement began as a political statement against the day-to-day racism that the artists encounter. I do not like some of the mysogyny, and racism on their part as well, but you cannot dismiss out-of-hand, and entire artform because you think you have the right to assign cultural values that you were raised with and support. Can you, at least, admit that the color of skin in this country influences your perceptions? That is a cultural construct, in addition to a biological activity. Physical characterists, what you call "race" is one tenent of a larger cultural grid.. for example.. one mentioned Eminim.. now, to place Eminim into a category.. you had to integrate CULTURAL standards.. caucasion ethnicity.. that is cultural.. why, because if you never saw Eminim, you would not be able to make that judgement.. is he black or white.. then you explain that answer using not BIOLOGICAL perameters, but artistic, societal, or CULTURAL perameters, that is why I make the initial assertion. Once your eyeballs see a person, the perceptions then take over..and the cultural grid gets immediately applies. CULTURE. Again, race is a social structure invented by those with the power to name them.. hence the term, "minorities," even though the ones who constructed the terms are actually, numerically fewer than the "minorities." Another term bandied about frequently, is "white and non-white," which is also a cultural judgement.. Can you understand where I am coming from?? I will post references, if you would bother to check them out, but it would involve study, for this is a complex cultural issue, as your example of Eminim illustrates.

mroop.. thanks for the links!!

Well Jazzmary2U, while it is true that perception based on the color of one's skin is a deeply seated psycological trigger (there have been studies on just that, and they are very interesting), the color of one's skin is meaning less and less each day, on the individual level. As a group, yes, it is sometimes more convinient for politicians to group certain ethnic demographics together, but a majority of America knows that the simple lumping just doesn't cut it nowadays. Have a little more faith in your fellow Americans; after all, you said it right when you said that we were all stuck in this together.

Jazzy Mary, you are not the only African-American here. I am as well, and have experienced a great deal of racism from the "dominant culture" in this country. Not all people in the dominant culture are racist.... but, I've experienced my fair share of it.

There's the immediate perception from those in the dominant group that if you're black you either
a) grew up in a ghetto
b) listen to certain kinds of music
c) are less intelligent than other folks because of your ethnicity
d) didn't earn your way into certain fields, schools, etc; because of your ethnicity
e) are in certain places because of a quota.
f) are a criminal of some type
g) poor
h)on some kind of government assistance or welfare or have been on drugs.

Many will avoid looking into the mirror and say, "I don't do this." I say, oh please, save the bullshit. I remember speaking to one woman who said I'd only get a job because of my race - even though I had a bachelor's degree and worked in the field I was applying in - for at least several years.

I think the "reverse racism" thing is bogus. Prejudice and racism are two different things in my book. You can be prejudiced against certain people based on skin color, religion, etc; Yes, this is true. But, racism implies "power." It's systematic and far reaching. Only those who possess the power have the ability to carry out racism. I already know there will be folks who disagree with me saying, "bullshit, it's not true." Whatever. I know there are some that believe that racism is some relic of the Pre-Civil Rights movement and doesn't exist. I watched a documentary where a few in the dominant culture would mind becoming black. Their answers were not surprising. Many said no. When asked why, they noted the treatment of many blacks in America. If racism itself is nonexistant, why be afraid of switching places ..if it did not affect one's place on the social strata?

Sadly, Americans look at one another based on a stereotype. Racism is no longer talked about "openly" as Mary said because people don't want to be accused of being a bigot. Now it's done in ameliorated "nice" words: "Welfare Mother," "Gangsta", "HIV infected mother," or...when a black man is addressed..it's "Man, blah blah blah" or whatever. Never by his first name

And now, the way America treats its own is "stretching" out to other lands like Iraq and Afghanistan. And don't tell me that this is bullshit, especially when I talk to a lot of individuals on a daily basis on these very same topics in chat. There people's "true" colors come out. See Abu Gharib which reminded me of many pictures I've seen of lynchings during the Jim Crow south. So it's not surprising that an Ann Coulter who says things like, "We should kill all the Muslims leaders and then convert them to Christianity" is tolerated by a vast number of Americans..and even supported.

Do I have faith in my fellow Americans? Not much. Especially since disenfranchisement of black voters is still taking place and my vote is more likely not to count. Things like this were happening during Jim Crow at the time when my parents were denied the right to vote.

http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=8365&fcategory_desc=E-Voting%20Machines%20/%20Vote%20Integrity

And I'm not whining about "why me" bullshit, nor do I want some stupid handout from the "dominant" society. I get sick of some people accusing me and others like Mary of having a chip on our shoulders. I'm just facint reality. I just want the bullshit to stop.

And for those thinking of replying to my post..playing the part of "defense attorney" asking me to "prove my point" with evidence. It's another red herring in my book. The prosecution is only asked to provide evidence to make their case, while the defense can use all sorts of logic to show why "this point" is not true, etc;. It's all spin, and in my view bogus. I'm not hear to speak for all black people. I'm speaking for myself and my own experience. If you have a problem with it, too bad. I really don't care.

hear = here.

Thanks MerylStryfe, for further illuminating what I am trying to say. I agree that it is unfair to lumb people into any category.. that is why I assert that one must embrace the culture that calls itself white. I know lots of good, caring Americans who don't embrace this.. those are my friends.. some of them are here, too. I care enough to bring this up so folks here can read and arm themselves against the ooze that will undoubtedly come up in the next two weeks.. not to mention the outright illegalities we fear are about to take place.. we MUST be vigilant.

Tomsong, I just re-read your first post. HOW do you have time to even talk to Code on the telephone???

This has definitely been an interesting thread. But there are a couple of points I wanted to bring forth.

First, I would like to respond to Mary's point "WHITE is a MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER". I am sorry but I don't see it that way. Before you ask, I am White with a southern heritage and proud of my ancestor who fought with the Confederacy. Does that make me a racist? I don't think so as I have spent the last ten years teaching in public schools that are 90% to 100% African-American and the people whom I consider my brothers and sisters are African American. I was raised by my parents to treat people by their deeds and not their skin color and I do my best to treat people the way I want to be treated. This attitude comes from having a father who was career army and growing up on various army bases. In that climate, the only color that matters is 'Green' and it doesn't matter if the person who outranks you is Black, White, Red, Male, or Female. When he/she gives and order, you salute and follow that order.

If you want a murderous culture, take a look at the area around the two schools in Birmingham where I taught. During the two years, I was teaching at West End High and Woodlawn High Schools, I saw more unwed mothers, drug use, and weapons violations than I care to remember. The news talk about 'White Flight', but in Birmingham, it was whoever could afford to leave, did. The problem there was not the skin of the students but the lack of parental involvement, an increasing number of crack babies and kids having kids. I talk to the older teachers who grew up under segregation and they said that such things were not allowed. One of the teachers told me if he was sent home suspended, he would be disciplined by his neighbors, aunts, uncles, grandparents, and parents before the day was over. The parental involvement that was once a common aspect of society is no longer there.

Hi sisters *waving*

I can't say I've experienced it all, but being an inner-city born Italian-American, I have experienced being considered less intelligent by suburban kids. It bugs me.

In terms of race and ethnicity, I think it helps when black-Americans have a clue that all white-Americans aren't the same. I try to appreciate the age, education level and background of individuals and not just the skin color. But I think sometimes a lot of blacks just think of us as white without being aware of the cultural differences among us (urban vs. country, rich vs. poor, educated vs. ignorant, recent immigrants vs. family-been-here-forever).

I have found the same mentality in Europeans -- they think of Americans as a singular breed (and often tell me I'm not like the typical American).

I get so tired of hearing co-outs from people who blame their plight on everything but themselves. My current favorites is the student who accuses me of giving him an 'F' because he was black or because I don't like black people. It never occurred to him that he failed because, he did not study, take advantage of tutoring, or played around in class when the teacher was telling the class everything that was going to be on the test. No, it was because the teacher was white and the student was black.

.....Of course he disregards the other 28 African American students in a class of 30 who passed with either an A or a B.

Expanding on part of what carla said from a different standpoint:

I grew up in the suburbs and, unfortunately, went to a catholic high school. Being Irish, I was not the victim of any racism. But in my entire school, there was one black girl. The prevailing attitude was very much that whites were better. Comments about it were seemingly constant sometimes. Thinking back on it, it's more sickening than I thought it was even then. Amongst certain groups of people, the attitude is definitely present. You'll be happy (despite the unfortunate circumstances) to know that the black girl turned out to be one tough cookie. She could take care of herself. The way some people are really sucks though.

No doubt that the results of oppression is a whole nutha thread, Mike2212. And I, as a former teacher of "ghetto" kids, applaud you!! I do not consider you a white person, though, but a caring (ethnic)-american. Just boiling all your good works down to a single color is not enough for me.. and most folks I know fit outside that simplistic category. Now that personal experiences are emerging here, I feel that we are making progress. And Sherminator.. I was the single "black" girl in an otherwise "white" classroom, trying as hard as I could to be like the rest of the class.. so sad.. then I grew up and realized that it wasn't me.. much happier now.. btw, my great-grandmother was off-the-boat Irish. I want to focus on the political use of this race thing, tho.. being how it is so close to US elections.

Boy what a responce to the article this thread has been. As usual, many good points and discussions going on here.

First off, my viewpoint will probably be attacked and not welcome on this topic. Reason is I feel this is a two way street sort of thing. It isn't an all black and white thing.

Most of the time I see very blunt reminders that all isn't as it should be. I hear blacks calling each other nigger. (just gonna lay it out like I hear it) Should I come up and repeat that word, which is in acceptance by the crowd saying it, then I am prejudice.

In the same manner if I approach a white crowd and don't jump on the bandwagon (should the topic be a black and white issue) then I am betraying my race.

Sorry it is neither one. As was mentioned above in one of the articles, when the helping hand reached to pull me outta the crap I didn't care what color was attached to the sleeve, it was all green.

Discrimination and reverse discrimination is alive and well and living in corporate realms, I promise you. It is mandated by the federal government that all will meet minimum requirements for the hiring of minorities. Doesn't matter your qualifications, it does matter your sex and skin color. Lost many an job appilication that way, but whether you or I like it or not, it is the law of the land.

Today many could do better at life, mostly it is a matter of education. In that our public school system fails miserably. From the coach making deals for the players with the teachers to get the star jock passed to promises that players could do well in sports. Never for a moment thinking about the student and the results of listening to that speel will make on his life after school is gone from his life. Truth is, dang few high school players will ever make the big league. Most will have to do as all the rest of us not so gifted ones do and work for a living.

The race thing is really a cop out for many. As it brought up in the post of Mike2212, it is far easier to holler race prejudice than accept we have failings, one of them is it is easier to ignore the real reasons when hunting for personal justification. I am not saying that everything fits this catagory, so don't jump on it as that. I am saying there is a minority that when things don't go the expected way, they play the race card as the problem.

I am not sure today what the percentage is of the African American to the population of the US. However I will say that in the past the redresses designed to equalize the playing feild was tilted far towards their side in an effort to make things fairer.

At what point do we say enough give aways? (This is not just a race issue but for others seeking the same give-aways, in whatever method) Yes, the RIAA almost fits this catagory too.

People should be judged, if judging is to be done, on their individuality. It isn't a race you meet when you shake hands, it is a fellow human being, with wants, dislikes, and opinions of their own. No matter the outside wrapping, there is still red blood below the skin and we are all subseptable to the same diseases. Some will say that sickle cell is predominately more prone to blacks than other races, but still others get it too. We all get colds, we all get the flu. That is called human and for me that is the race, no matter what defination you throw at it.

There was a big foo faw raw over the book that came out called The Bell Curve. Honestly, I didn't read it, didn't seem like the subject matter was one I was interested in. The premise of the book was that races fit in the bell curve as far as intellegence went. For whatever reason the author had, he listed the blacks as the lowest. Whites don't get your heads up over this, you weren't listed any better. Asians were listed at the top. The only group I heard anything from on that were the blacks protesting the book. As I didn't read it, they may well have had a good point.

What I am getting to here is, the black community hangs together as a group. The others don't. Simple as that. That is what we should be doing with this site. Gathering folks to hang together over the issue of the way that the RIAA and major corporations are trying to dominate and influance laws to the detriment of its citizens.

One last thing I want to say before I leave this post. In Europe this same sort of issue between races doesn't exist. I have seen it for myself. Blacks are just as respected as are whites and it was good not to see this crap going on about race being the cause of this or that. I am still waiting for the day, this arrives here in the states as a non-issue. That it is accepted that it isn't skin color that makes the person, it is that persons personality, beliefs, thoughts, and viewpoints that do. Of course if it reaches this point there will be no more give aways for any race.

Lastly, I never owned a slave, don't know anyone that did. Never talked to one soul that was a slave either. However many brave folks died in wars to protect this country. Wars are color blind and have no favorites. Many heroic people died and they were of every color in the book.

I dated two men back in my youth, (the early 70's) one was a proof reader for the newspaper I was working for..he was just a super, super sweet guy....the other was a doctor, who turned out to be, I hate to say it, of the pompous jerk category.....guess which one was the Black man?

In my high school, there is no real majority. It is split fairly evenly between blacks, whites, and asians, and other ethnic groups/races. My whole life i've grown up alongside blacks, hispanics, whites, and asians. I'm about as colorblind as they come.

What I do notice is that there is a lot of useless hatred and animosity brought up whenever someone mentions race. One thing that EVERYONE seems to have trouble understanding is, not all white people, and not all black people are the same.

Yes, racism is present, and yes, something needs to be done about it, but pointing fingers and arguing in circles will accomplish nothing but cause more tension.

I live in an upper-middle-class area, but I'm in one of the few dozen working class families. My mother was born prematurely and has cerebral palsy and multiple sclerosis, yet still works 3 jobs a week, and my father is working 10 hour days, working on an assembly line. Most of the money i make i give to my parents so i can still have an internet connection. Every single one of my friends are in a much higher position on the social scale than me, especially my black friends.

I'm constantly discriminated against because i have to get clothes at thrift shops and second hand stores, because i can't pay for entry fees for sports teams and other clubs. There are scholarships, but there are quotas for minorities to get a certain number of scholarships, often times leaving me, the "middle class white male" out.

True, bullshit happens to minorities all the time, but its more about social classes and income than race. I think if we fixed our social system, and lessened the gap between the upper class and the lower class, much of the racism we see would disappear.

But then, what do i know?

And who are you voting for agensthegrane?

And why?

Ok, I grew up in PA. In a small town where we had two african american and one hispanic kid in my school. I grew up with a majority of "white" kids. But now I live in DC and work with "black" adults all day long. I live in a "latino" neighborhood where my two next door neigbors taught me spanish since english was a second language.

Black, white, yellow, green, orange, purple. I could really care little. My only problem is when people put up these big walls. "He's not talking to my culture or well I have been discrimated." Its sad that the world still does these things, but you need to overcome it. Let go of past hates. I to have been discrimated, I was refused service at a latino pizza palor and at a african american chinese place on Martin luther king BLVD. (anyone from DC will know the road.) If sucked, yes, but I am not going to go around and hate my co-workers and neighbors for it. Some people are jerks, its not a race or color thing, its a person thing.

I'm not voting for the president. i'm voting on everything else, but not for any of the "candidates" that have been given to me, badnarik and nader included. but thats a little off topic.

I dont really care, but I would like to make one statement.

In the UK, out government is the least-discriminatory I know of, perhaps the least-discriminatory in the world. Government documents are available in every language, we have strict equal-opportunities and anti-discrimination laws. We have an active asylum-seeker policy to provide them with housing, free english-language education (which they dont actually need, as they only talk to each other) and a loan until they find work.

The practical effect? Precisely the opposite. The UK government might be a perfect model, but the people just cant stand it. Teachers are afraid to punish non-white children, for fear of accusation. The children know this just as well - and use it. Few things infuriate us as much as the knowledge that thousands of alysum seekers are here who have no intrest in finding work or learning the language. There are schools in London with more translators than teachers. Most annoying of all, while *their* culture is protected by law, *ours* isn't. At once point government employies were ordered not to publicly support the England football team, as this could offend others. Then there are the stories of promosions going to non-whites to fill a quota, rather then more capable employies.

What I mean is, its counterproductive. Non-discrimination is good, but as soon as you impliment positive-discrimination the effect is the complete opposite. The law should ensure everyone is treated in exactly the same way whereever possible, but no further.

My only problem with the non-english is those accents...cant understand a word they say.

Then there are the stories of promosions going to non-whites to fill a quota, rather then more capable employies.

happens here all the time.
the minute culture, ethnic background, or gender becomes part of the criteria for hiring or promotions (no matter how qualified the individual is) theres discrimination or racism. since racism is different because in involves a power elite it is still that because the powers who do the hiring are conducting the racism.

want total equality?? judge all applicants equally based on their abilities and qualifacations. anything else no matter how rightous it may seem is wrong.

Hear hear comp! I'm tired of hunting for jobs well below my education level, and not even being able to get those because some high-school dropout happened to apply, and they are a color other than white. I've got an advanced college educational background, and I can't even get a job at McDonalds! I should be at work in one of the Nuclear power plants damn it! But, of course, they had thier quota to fill, and I was screwed (I found out later that the plant had to put some of the minorities through the majority of thier college just to qualify them as nuclear power operators, and they were barely qualifed at that). That's just sickening. I spen a lot of time and hardship learning that stuff, I worked my ass off to get a good paying job, and I get screwed by affirmative action. No more pandering to anybody!! Let the ability and drive of the individual determine thier success in life, not how many breaks they get.

And Jazzmary, you sound like one of the biggest raacists I know, and I know a lot. If you think that playing the race card is giong to affect any more than oh, 5% of the population, you are very wrong. Call me racist if you want; I know the truth about myself, about the many happy friendships I have with people of all races, creeds, religions, colors, nationalities, income levels, and ethos. Not to sound egocentric, but I wish more people could be as tolerant as me! Actually, not tolerant; that implies that I am just putting up with it. More, accepting. Blow it all to hell, no discrimination on either side! You quit your bitching about "the white man," and I'll shut up about, well, whatever I've said to piss everybody off so much, I'm not sure what that might be, but please feel free to tell me.

Compmore said "want total equality?? judge all applicants equally based on their abilities and qualifacations. anything else no matter how rightous it may seem is wrong."

"I'm tired of hunting for jobs well below my education level, and not even being able to get those because some high-school dropout happened to apply, and they are a color other than white. I've got an advanced college educational background, and I can't even get a job at McDonalds!"

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone judged one another on one's abilities, but if that was the case, you'd have to change human nature from the inside out. Human beings have preferences and those in power express them. To have every individual in this country treated fairly, you'd have to ensure that every individuals nature in this country is changed from the inside out. And realistically, this utopian vision can not be carried out in a "realistic" model of the world. Sadly, this is where legislation comes in for the protection of the minority in America. Although you cannot legislate change in an individuals' mind, you can damn well make sure that the playing ground is a bit fairer - even though "quotas" cannot ensure a more diverse workforce, let alone level playing field.

But again, Nuke just proved my point I made earlier about how others assume that a minority in any field (educational, vocational or otherwise) is less-qualified than their white counterparts. There is the assumption that a minority did not have to work as hard as their white counterpart to get into the position they're in. Of course, there will be the argument that it's Civil Right's legislation's fault for that mindset. But that's pure b.s. because that mindset was in existence even before civil rights legislation came forth.

As I said earlier (which I doubt many read) discrimination still exists, although in a more "polite" form. It doesn't that I am more intelligent than some on this board, or have a better education. I'll still be seen as not having earned my way into the position I worked for.

I haven't been handed anything in my life. I went to a school that was majority "white." When I first moved to this high school from another state - they attempted to "track" me and my younger sister due to race. Without seeing our report card, the "counselor" wanted to put my younger sister and I in remedial courses. They wanted to do this, even though I had been accepted into Internatioanl Baccalaurate (a select honors society that you have to test to get into) and my younger sister who had an A average in her course work.

Throughout high school, in my honors courses, all I got was flack about "How I didn't deserve to be there," or "How I was taking up space for a more deserving white person" from my classmates. Didn't let this deter me, instead I worked my way through my coursework - eventually graduating in the top ten percent of my class (I marched 110 in a graduating class of 1,500 students.) And I did equally as well on my SAT and ACT scores.

I received no scholarships for making a 3.75 GPA in school. I received no scholarships, no special treatment, nothing. Most of my fellow classmates ended up dropping out of college, or not finishing, while I went on to graduate and go to Graduate school to pursue a Masters in Literature. Of course, this didn't deter others from saying I didn't earn my way through school. I earned my way, and there are plenty of highly-educated "minority" students who do the same.

Do I think Affirmative Action is unfair? No, I do not - especially considering the history in ths country and the continued racism. Although people would like to turn their heads and pretend it's not there - it's there. Especially knowing one of my classmates who is African-American, who was 2 weeks from graduating from school and just going home to see his mother was shot in the back because police "suspected" him as being a "drug runner." He had no drugs in his possesion.

I'm only 32 years-old, but, I'm lucky to have two parents, uncles and aunts who remember what it was like to live under segregation and Jim Crow in the south. All of my relatives have college educations. If segregation had continued, the best jobs they could have gotten, even with a college degree was to become a teacher or be a porter. And the funny thing is, that affirmative action has benefitted white middle class women more than any sector in society. That's a fact, not conjecture.

And before you go whining nuke about minorities getting your "good" jobs, I'm black. I can't get jobs in certain sales positions at Geico, or a fast food restaurant for that matter...and you don't hear me whining and blaming it on my race. My sister who has a Bachelor's degree from OU hasn't been able to find permanent work, and has been stuck doing temp and she doesn't blame it on her being black. I also had a friend with cancer who's out of work, but she still trudges to the college center day after day to try and locate a job. Have you blamed the obvious? The job market is really pissy at this moment. Everyone's struggling - black, white, woman, man. But the first thing people do when they can't locate work is scapegoat the minority groups for taking up space in "good paying jobs."

Have you thought about that maybe they considered you as being too educated or too qualified to work at a McDonalds? Seriously? You didn't? It happens.

Another thing that really grates on me is the hypocrisy of some folks who rankle on and on about affirmative action. Yet, the fail to complain about nepotism (getting a job because of who you know or if you're a family member) or sinecures (getting a false job ostentatious job title that does nothing. ) They don't complain about huge scholarships or the preferential treatment doled out to athletes in schools who get much better scholarships than anything I've ever gotten in school...nor do they complain about someone like a George W. Bush who got into schools like Harvard, Yale because of money or their connections. Or the women who complain about affirmative action now, who are the ones who benefitted the most. If they're truly concerned about "equality" for everyone, why not attack these inequalities too? Most of these people were "less qualified" when they applied to school. Why not openly protest these?

Ha! Didn't think about these things do you. It's rank hypocrisy. It just shows all of this "wanting fairness" and "judging people based on their merits" is bullshit. Since I brought this to your attention, you'd probably say you protest these things too.. but, before I brought it to your notice, none of you even thought to protest these very things. Why not?

That's why the "logical" arguments used to protest affirmative action are farcical. There is no fairness in American society, or in the world for that matter. If it was about wanting fairness and equality based on one's abilities, then nepotism and these other "factors" would be openly protested or legally challenged as well.

These things happened all the time in the past and most didn't notice, didn't care, and won't because of the obvious.

Yep, nepotism, political connections.
Trumps affirmative action every time.
Very good points.

"Sadly, this is where legislation comes in for the protection of the minority in America."

Discrimination against whites by the government = "protecting the rest" ?

True! I don't like the fact that some ofthe people get bys from thier teachers, just because they are strong or fast. Nepotism isn't racism, it's helping a buddy of family member out. It's still not right, but do you really think that if all of those ppl who have jobs because of that were to suddenly have to look for a real job, and those positions owuld be open, that it would make that great a difference?

And yes, I do know that theeconomy sucks. Having an engineering degree that nobody wants is more frustrating than you can imagine. I spent almost $45,000 to finish up the schooling I got in the Navy (which was estimated at about a $1.5 million educational and training course for each and every person), without scholarships. I used the Montgomery G.I. bill, somethingI had earned through hard work for the Navy. And when I find out that the person who got my job at Surrie Nuclear Power Plant haden't even taken his SAT's, it infuriated me!!!!!! It wasn't that I THOUGHT he was underqualified, it was that HE WAS UNDERQUALIFIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you think I like looking for jobs well below my skill level? I don't care if those people think I am too educated for that job!!!!!!!!! If I am asking for that job, that means I want that job!!!! It shouldn't be up to them to decide if I'm too good for a job! It sort of makes it seem like you saying that I'm overqualified implies that fast food and other service industry jobs are for uneducated people. That's unfair. When did having an education becom a liability in the workforce?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!!? NOw I'm too poor and in debt to go back to school for something more in demand (like an MBA), and just screwed.

And no, I don't think that just because someone is an other color than white means that they worked any less harder than a white person for the position. My time in the military proved that very well. I think that those who showed poor leadership and organization skills are the ones who don't belong in ther positions. I was passed up for advancement many times in the service by blacks, hispanics, and asians, and I don't think that for even a minute that I deserved it more than they did, or that they got it because of thier race. They got it because they were more experienced than me, and they knew more than I did. However, many of the Chiefs I served under didn't know how to lead people by any means other than fear and bullheadedness, and that particular group was an even mix of black and white. Are you goingto say that I thought I thiought the black chiefs were crappy because they were black, or because they were crappy? It infuriates me that some people in the workplace are assholes, and get away with it because if somebody goes to thier supervisor with a complaint about them, it's ignored or even interpreted as racism and prejudice! It's happened to me more than once!!

And even though I was an upper-middle class male white, I had to work just as hard as anybody else in any of my schools. Espically the ones that were black predominate. I went to an couple of innner-city schools, were I was one of 10 white kids in a school of 1500. I got my ass beat every day because i wa a 'cracker', and if I tried to fight back, I wa put on suspension. I had to work 3 times as hard as any of the black kids there (twice as hard for being white, and the a bit more because of my ADHD). When I moved to the predominately white school, everything was pretty fair. Everybody was diong well, including the minorites. If they were failing, it was because they were screwing around, not because they were prejudiced against. The atheletes still got somewhat more of a free ride than most(which I am still pissed oof about), but that won't ever change.

Oh, and stop classifying atheletes as stupid. One of my friends was a wide reciver, but he was taking *and passing* A.P calculus. Neils Bohr, the guy who created our most used atomic structure, was an Olympic Decathelete. Stop being so classist!

The atheletes still got somewhat more of a free ride than most(which I am still pissed oof about), but that won't ever change.

Yeah, there are smart athletes. But there are a lot who are there because they didn't work. And before you call me classist, you really need to look at yourself as well. I guess the Buddhist phrase that "Everybody suffers is true." Everybody goes through shit in life. It's not fair, but that's the way it is. When you're going through it, then it seems like your the only person who went through it. But, there's always two sides to every story. What you went through, wasn't fair. No one should get a job if they're unqualified or don't deserve to be there. Yes, that is bullshit and totally wrong. But, it's equally wrong for someone to be denied a job due to race. And yes, this has happened to me before.

Everyone goes through bullshit. Just don't say that your suffering is greater than mine, and I won't say that mine's greater than yours. Capice?

Me.. racist?? Everyone in this country has been affected by the 800 pound gorilla.. and I'm racist for pointing this out.. RIIIGHT!! Go back, study, discuss this with your diverse friends, if you can without the veins standing out in your neck from anger.. you are running around in tighter and tighter circles, and pretty soon you are going to run into yourself coming the other way with contradictions. I am discussing the results and fallout from a certain culture, which you still don't get what I am talking about.. oh, well, I tried. I want, like you, an equal America, one America where all are respected.. but if you don't see the gorilla, you won't know what hit you. And we will never reach that goal of equal repect for all. I am about done with this, because flames are starting to fly.. it is interesting that my initial post remains unexplained.. which proves my point.. all of us filter the subject of race throug the CULTURE.. everyone here is describing what happens to different pigmented folks in this country.. it is all a function of cultural perceptions, not scientific perameters.. So I still go all the way back to my first post. Meryl.. have we heard this all before or what?

BTW I gotta take a break here.. gotta go work "in the trenches" to get out the vote.. howzabout u?

I've already voted, though I don't like either candidate.

Plain and simple then, because I am obviously not understanding. Define white. Define racism. And define discrimination.

NOt meant to be sacracstic either, but when I read it, it looked that way. I'm serious.

Yesterday and today I've restrained myself from participating.
But, how about time for a recap?

Considering the article and the author's subsequent comments, here's a possible synopsis:
Point #1: Americans' perceptions about racial issues have been influenced by each person's specific type of culture (upbringing and environment).
Point #2: Anglo-Saxon Americans who intentionally prefer to label themselves 'white' instead of something like 'caucasian' cross over a line that runs a risk of provoking the ire of Afro-Americans.
Point #3: Jazzmary2U's own words: "It is humility and humanity that can bridge the cultural gaps. We need to understand each other, not stand in our respective corners and stare ominously, waiting for the next 'assumption' to divide us further."

(Remember, I was merely trying to summarize what appears to be the principal concepts promoted by the author. Obviously, the final authority on the author's intentions belongs to the author herself.)

Besides what Jazzmary2U presented, how about THIS significantly memorable perspective?
Codewarrior wrote: I just think we all need to get beyond trying to put everyone into a class or group and see each other as people....maybe someday "all men are created equal" will ring with more sincerity once all men are TREATED equally.

Also, perhaps taking a glance at the statement that appeared to have caused the most stir (because its context was not well understood at the time):
Jazzmary2U wrote: 'White' is not a race. 'WHITE' is a MURDEROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER.
(In retrospect, we probably have a better idea now what she meant by saying that.)


Hey, did I help at all? Hope so.

At your service . . . [parting salute]

"Plain and simple then, because I am obviously not understanding. Define white. Define racism. And define discrimination."

It's already been tried. No answer, just rhetoric. Just look in the dictionary. I already defined race that way in this thread. I would say in my own words that racism is judging someone based on their race and that discrimination is acting against someone due their race.

sherm I haven't figured it out either. I'm proud of being white. I don't think of myself as european or caucasian, just American. African Americans prefer not to be called black which is just fine as they have the right to identify themselves whichever way they see it. but I prefer to call myself white. Others may not like it but that's too bad. that's what I am and that's how I want to see myself. If you don't want us to put lables on you, don't put lables on us.

MerylStryfe all those examples you gave of prefrental treatment have discriminated against everyone, including whites. and yes, everyone I know complains about it alot. But (I'm being sarcastic here so don't get defensive) it's equal oprotunity discrimination. I repeat what I said and believe it, anytime you promote, hire or give someone preferential treatment based on ANYTHING other than ability and experience, it's wrong. period.

Also I notice it's not usually the White, europeans, caucasians (however you want to say it) that keep holding up the race issue. How can we have a colorblind society when there are those always willing to hold up the differences for all to see

"I'm proud of being white.
I don't think of myself as European or caucasian, just American.
. . . I prefer to call myself white. Others may not like it, but that's too bad. That's what I am and that's how I want to see myself.
If you don't want us to put labels on you, don't put labels on us."

Given what Mary has aleady said, she may wonder why
on the one hand you write that you think of yourself as American
but still feel the need to be proud of your outward (skin) color.
She might say something to the effect that culture-distancing
has one of its sources in being proud of one's skin color,
and that an approach such as that is already a preface
for racial disharmony.

"Also, I notice it's not usually the White, Europeans, caucasians
(however you want to say it) that keep holding up the race issue.
How can we have a colorblind society when there are those always
willing to hold up the differences for all to see?"

YOU'VE already admitted to being proud of your "white" distinction
("I'm proud of being white"), so this last question of yours
may seem somewhat self-incriminating.


(This might be the devil's advocate position in Mary's absence,
but it's best to let her present and defend her own case.)

(Regarding what I wrote about it being best to let Mary present and defend her own case, I'm sort of talking to myself there. Naturally, you don't have to respond to what I anticipate to be Mary's position(s).
I thought it might be interesting to raise some worthwhile issues for consideration.)

All I can say is that life isn't fair. You either get over it and try to change it or complain about it forever and do nothing. Everyone in some way or another can say they have been discrimated or classified. From being a "Jock" or "Nerd," to being "Cool" or "Uncool." Humans label people, its our nature. I love computers and electronics. I am labeled a computer geek. I am an american with a light skin color, so I am labeled white. Labeling isn't the problem, the way I see it. Humans group everything by common factors. The problem is where you are treated differently based on that label.

The problem with human nature is that if you are grouped (or labeled) things are expected of you due to a majority. You don't expect the "Jock" to no be able to throw a ball. Just you expect the "Nerd" to program the VCR. Sociaty by its very nature steers people towards what they are good at and groups them together. Because of that thinking, people naturaly group people with what they have in common. Race, Education, hobbies, etc.

All I am saying is there is nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage or accomplishments, but don't think you are better then others because of it. That's where its racism. Its not a black, white, green, red thing. Its putting yourself above others, be it a group or one single person. I am proud to be an american, but that doesn't mean that I think chinese people are crap, it just means that I am happy to be an american.

My son graduated from high school a couple of years ago. The public school he attended is very culturally diverse. When taking state exams, students were asked personal questions about their parent's income and their RACE. At least three of my son's close friends were "mixed". That is, one parent was black, one was white. They objected to answering the question. It's offensive. Are they supposed to choose a race? Or are they considered "black" or African-American because one parent is black. THAT is the racism. Oh, you're not all white. Then you're not pure white. You're "other" or "black". It's racism.

MerylStryfe all those examples you gave of prefrental treatment have discriminated against everyone, including whites. and yes, everyone I know complains about it alot. But (I'm being sarcastic here so don't get defensive) it's equal oprotunity discrimination. I repeat what I said and believe it, anytime you promote, hire or give someone preferential treatment based on ANYTHING other than ability and experience, it's wrong. period.

If you read the entire post, compmore, of course I know these forms of discrimination affect everyone. It's just no one complains about them. And that was my point.

And on your other point - that blacks or other minorities are the ones bringing up the race issue, that's not the case. Example,this morning I was sitting in a chatroom discussing politics - when one man, who classified himself as a white Republican Christian (note race had nothing to do with the issue at hand at that moment) stated how he wished that the only "good black person was a dead one." Two others agreed with him. Race comes up because of incidents like these. If your a member of a particular group, your more likely to notice incidents of "slights" and discrimination. It's similar to women noticing when men are making comments about the strength, intelligence or emotional "sensitivity" of women when they're being sexist. And I'm not being defensive. And compmore,If I was being defensive, it would indicate that I would find part of your argument true. Argumentation and debate is much different from defensiveness.

Azure, I completely agree with your point about how labels affect individuals lives. I too am a computer nerd, and often get labeled for that as well. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage. It's just when one group of people use it as a way to measure your intelligence, inherent abilities, inner strength and/or worthiness as a human being that it gets to be the problem. And when the problem becomes systematic, that's when it's shitty.

Lachette, yes, and the labels concerning "mixed" individuals is racist. Unfortunately, this rule comes from slavery time when "one drop" of black blood determined whether one was black or not. My mother's side of the family comes from a lineage of mulattos in southern Louisiana. Most were light enough to "pass" and were discriminated by both blacks and whites in their communities. I'm glad that people are more "aware" now, but, unfortunately I don't think that much will change in the U.S. as far as race goes. Race, in my opinion, is more of a political construct than a biological one. Most African-Americans in this country are mixed with the blood from different races. But, the phenotypic, or "outer" characteristics of individuals are usually given more weight than one's biological make up in this country. Unfortunately, this country uses phenotypic characteristics as a way to measure one's intelligence, although DNA studies have shown there is little variations between the racial groups as far as genetic makeup's concerned. So funny that half the human race is treated like "less than" others because of a single protein that makes melanin.

your = you're

I am sneaking on this from work..(roll credits.. music) Compmore, awehr,Sherminator.. I thank you for your honesty and candid posts. It is you who makes me clarify what it is I am trying to say.. Demandrelevance, MerylStrife, Azure,Code,Lachatte,Mike, thank you for taking the time to thoroughly discuss your reflections of my first post. This is why I love dmusic.. the most sensitive subjects can be ardently discussed because, on the bottom line, we all agree that everyone deserves respect..

nukewaste. My definitions. 1. White is a cultural assignment of perameters to a skin color, folks ain't actually true WHITE in color, now, are they? 2. Racism is the application of a skin-based culture to separate from, and dominate over, "inferior others." 3. Discrimination is the separation process or activity.. not necessarily applied to racism, but often is associated with it.

Finally, I would like to say on this momentious occasion.. GOOO SSOOOOOXXXXXXXXX
!!!!!!!

MerylStyfe.. Thank You.. Home run, for sure. Read her last post TWICE!! It is concise, lucid, and informative..

So you are saying that a black man could meet the parameters of 'white,' if they act the same as a 'white' person? And yes, SOX RULE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Break the curse, not another '86 heartbreak!

you know i haven't posted yet, but jazzmary2u you're extremely racist. and btw in compmore's defense, there's a difference between white pride and white power. jazz you seem to blend them together. white people are pale skinned, black are dark skinned and usually from africa. that's a fact not an opinion. sure there was the KKK, but guess what??? the BLACK PANTHERS existed too!!! racism goes beyond color. it goes BOTH DIRECTIONS!!!

Actually mmnuc3, the black panthers were created in response to racial profiling and prejudice that the police and judicial system was showing them in the 50's and 60's. Huey Freeman armed the black people not to instigate hate against whites, but because it was legal to, and to start standing up to the police officers that used to arest blacks without cause, and create trumped-up charges to put them in prison. The main reason that the cops got away with this was because most african americans at the time were still ignorant of thier newly-won rights, and didn't know that they could say no. Mr. Freeman's most dangerous weapon was words, but ater he was incarcerated (and still is), the Panthers took a more violent turn. That was from prejudiced blacks who wanted to vent thier anger in a more primative way. The big difference between the KKK and the Black Panthers is that the Panthers will still associate themselves with like-minded white people; those who want more rights and equality for the african americans. Understand the difference?

I want White Entertainment Television!

..before I slip off to work nukewaste! thank you for the clarification of the black panther movement for mmnuc3! we agree on that one!.. and the sox!!!!
mmnuc3, grow up!

jazz you seem to blend them together. white people are pale skinned, black are dark skinned and usually from africa. that's a fact not an opinion.

There are "light-skinned" blacks. I've know several. My mother was one and could "pass" if she'd wanted too, but she despised that. I have many family members who look "white" who are actually black. Phenotypic differences don't indicate one's race. There are plenty of mixed genes among the races at the biological level. What shows phenotypically depends on what genes are recessive and dominant. Not everyone's basic genome is "shown." Therefore race is more of a political construct based on "phenotypical" or "shown" characteristics than one's actual genetic makeup.

Refers you to Matt Ridley's "The Red Queen" or any of his other books on genetics for further references on this subject.

Again, on racism - racism can only be carried out when one has the power to do so in society. Prejudice, on the other hand, can exist in both directions. I really don't think anyone's reading this, let alone understanding it.

And as to "White" Entertainment Television, you already have that on more than 170 channels on air for most shows. There are only a handful of shows with blacks on them, let alone people of other ethnicities or races. If you look at 80% of t.v. channels (commercials, t.v. shows, movies, etc in this country and begin the count according to race and/or sexual orientation, you'll see exactly what I mean. BET was started in the 80s only because at the time, when I was a younger lady (although it is not as much of the case now) not many black musicians videos were being shown on channels like VH1 or MTV. And no, Michael Jackson does NOT count.

Oy vey, I think I'm going to go back to being the blissful lurker on these boards. These posts take up too much energy. Adieu.

I just watched the Barack Obama / Alan Keyes debate. Talk about bizarro world.

I am just wondering, I really don't have any problem with most of the stuff on here. I just want to ask a question.

Why are Ms. C. Rice, Mr. C. Powell, and Mr. M. Jackson not considered "black?" I have a great friend, Ceza, who is african american and listens to techno music instead of rap. I mean he still has some rap songs he likes but the majority is techno. He also speaks perfect english and watches the history channel. Now other african americans I know and work with used to joke that he is "as white as me" and they were going to "take away his black card." For some of the reasons that I have given. (They also said since he was dating a white girl.)

Why does it matter what he likes or does?

That's the thing I don't understand. Just because it is assumed that only white people like techno music when a black man does he's no longer black. I saw that it bothered Ceza and though we both knew they were joking around I can't help but feel that people always haven't said that joking to him. Which is crap. Sorry to vent, just something I noticed when I was reading the posts.

What I find interesting is that afirmative action to even the playing field by letting ethnic (notice I didn't say race) background be a determinating factor in job placement is supposed to be a good thing yet when the president does it with powell and Rice they are called tokens. is there suposed to be a particular political belief they are suposed to have or a particular way they are suposed to talk before they are legitimate African Americans and not sell outs or tokens?? if Clinton appointed African Americans to the exact same positions I'm sure we wouldn't hear talk like that

mmnuc is right. just because he doesn't agree with your assertion doesn't mean he needs to grow up.

Again, on racism - racism can only be carried out when one has the power to do so in society.

true so when afirmitave action becomes the law of the land and the government (including the powerful black caucaus in the house) enforces it, then it becomes racism against whites

If only the world were truly colorblind...But I would like to ask a question here, for anyone who would care to answer. Why are you proud to be white, black, or "mixed"--I've been thinking about this all afternoon, and I can't really understand it. Why be proud of something you had no control over? An accident of birth is not an accomplishment. So could some of you please tell me why you are so proud?

Shadowmom, are you proud of your kids?

This isn't the best example, but hear me through. My parents are proud of me, though how I turn out is up to me. My parents will always support me and be proud of me, even though they didn't choose me out of a group of kids. I was just the first sperm to make it, so my mom had no choice what so ever.

Another example is, that I am proud to be italian and Norwegian is to show respect for those who came before me. All the artists , leaders, etc, people who made a difference. Its not that I think less of any other group's contribution. I am proud and show respect for the culture that came before me and has given me life. Just like I am proud and respect my mother and father even though I didn't choose them.

Azurre--you are talking about culture, and even lineage. I am proud of my children--but not because they are white. I'm proud of my kids because they are both extremely intelligent, well-mannered, tolerant kids--and I use the term "kids" loosely--one is 30, the other 13. Our heritage is very mixed--a little Irish, a little Cherokee Indian, a little English--but not enough of anything to say,"Whoo, look what my ancestors did!"
And I don't mean to belittle cultural heritage here, but I did not ask why you are proud to be Scandinavian, Teutonic, Italian, or African American. I asked why you would say -- you are proud to be white/black/etc. Do you see what I'm getting at?

because you can be proud of the great black and white people who have made a change. It goes back to groupings, people are grouped due to similarities. Be it color, hobbies, or area. You can be proud that your group (be it race, location, hobby.) is trying to make a difference in this world. Makes you feel as if they can do it, so can you. You were proud when your College or high school football team won, or when your sports teams win. Doesn't mean that you think less of the other team. You can, but you don't have to. Having pride in anything is a good thing, as long as you don't belittle others because of it.

I understand that, but it's still not what I asked. If you are white, why are you proud of it? If you are black, why are you proud of it? Groups tend to be people who share something in common, like football teams. They are not proud they are black or white, only that they are a football team. You are talking collective, I am talking on a personal level.
I never said to myself, "Gee, I'm really proud I'm white." And if you did, I'm asking why?

"Having pride in anything is a good thing, as long as you don't belittle [or feel superior to] others because of it."

That's key, isn't it.
(Common ground.)

And?

Someone recently noted this truth:
"All I can say is that life isn't fair."

That's a "fair"ly accurate observation.

Is that your final answer? Because it isn't an answer to a direct question. Sorry, Azurre, I got to get some sleep. Nice talking to you, though. DemandRelevance, just out of curiosity, are you a politician or a lawyer? "Cause you sure danced around an answer. 'Night kids....

"DemandRelevance, just out of curiosity, are you a politician or a lawyer? 'Cause you sure danced around an answer."

What answer (did I dance around)?


BTW, that reminds me of something:

"What is the question?
What is the answer?
The piper's a madman;
Death is the dancer.

Who really cares? Who understands?
'God' in their mouths, blood on their hands.
They step on our rights. Some people get shot.
What have we lost? What have they got?'

[Exerpts from Fever Tree's lyrics, "Death Is the Dancer" -- protest song, 1960's psychodelic era . . .]

Interesting how that was written over 35 years ago, but that part about "'God' in their mouths, blood on their hands" almost reminds me of a current political application.

"Just out of curiosity, are you a politician or a lawyer?
'Cause you sure danced around an answer."

Just out of curiosity, was I supposed to be answering something?
(P.S. It was not my intention to actually respond to a question
that you apparently had been directing toward Azure.)

Shadowmom I think that is a very good question. I would have to say for me my pride in being white is partially what azurre said. being proud of the heritage my ethnic background is. the other reason I suppose is defense. I (like any other minority) hate being judged on a sterotype. Now I know Jazzmary and MerylStryfe don't mean it the way it sounds (though I'm still taken back by the WHITE is a MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER remark, not understanding the intent) but I do know and have seen and heard minorities generalize whites in unflattering terms and personally I don't see any difference. I'm not in power so why would I be racist? answer, the whites are in power and since I'm white, ergo, the title sticks. So I guess partially my reason for being proud of my heritage is part defense of myself as well. I guess that's the best answer I can give.

So given that racism is reserved for those in power (which conviently absolves those of minorities who want to hate whites from being called racist thereby justifing their sterotyping) does that mean that in a big city like Detroit (where I'm from) that is populated mostly of African Americans and most of the local government is African American, does that mean they are racist when they choose an African American over a white??

. . . But, if you want an additional opinion from me, here it is: Cultural differences may be more than skin deep, but we somehow need to co-exist more equitably for the common good of fairness and harmony.

I agree DemandRelevance.

Shadowmom, you can be proud of something you have no control over, out of respect for those before you. Be it a high school, pride in parents, location you were born or live in, or color (heritage). None of those things were my choice.

I think the miscommunication comes from defining white and black. Is it a culture, a heritage, a race, or a pigment (or lack of)? I think it is all these things. I think the big thing people are arguing with are stereotypes. White people are rich, black people like rap, chinese people are good in math. Things like that, which aren't true but people and society push it. I mean, could you see the movie Friday with an all white cast? Or a black Rabbi? No? Why? Because of the stereotype. That's where our problem is, not in our color or culture. In our minds, we need to unthink what a race or culture or color means, it doesn't mean a stereotype. It means its just a person with a different type of skin color. That is all, he/she is a person with thoughts, fears, loves just like everyone else.

ShadowMom, that is really the crux of the debate. I posted a little anecdote yesterday morning about my son and his friends filling out a questionnaire. It didn't ask for cultural background, as in English, Italian, etc. It asked for race. I don't recall what the wording was...It used to be _white _black _yellow _red. It was probably _caucasian _African-American, etc.
The point is that it didn't ask for clarification of background. Are you in or are you out? White or not?

Why should we be PROUD to be white? I'm just GLAD to be white. Being a female from a blue collar family in college in the late 60's, I had few connections or realistic career choices. Being a black woman at that time in the U.S. would have been SO much more difficult. In fact, there were very few at my school.

Claiming WHITE puts you in the dominant, powerful group. White men run this country, and they want to keep it that way. You shouldn't apologize for being white, but you can't take pride in just being white.

Yeah, Lachatte, I always figured what people should be proud of was what they accomplished, or did, or said, or thought. I understand Azurre's point about being proud of an organization, or your cultural heritage, but just being born is not something to be proud of. It's what you do AFTER you're born that's important.
We tried very hard to keep my daughter from being exposed to any racism when she was small--in fact, in elementary school she was the only white non-Hispanic student (what a mouthful) in her class. I guess we did a pretty good job, because one day she was trying to describe a little boy in school, and she said he had brown eyes and black hair. When I asked her if he was black, she said no, he was kind of brown. It never occurred to her that in that situation she was the minority and she was the one who was different.
Btw, DemandRelevance--Fever Tree I didn't think anybody knew their music but me!!!!! I tried to find their old records on CD a few years ago, but haven't looked lately. That song in particular has suddenly regained a lot of meaning. Thanks for the blast from the past!

but you can't take pride in just being white.

yes I can.

Claiming WHITE puts you in the dominant, powerful group.

does that mean claiming to be black puts you in another unflattering steriotyped group? As for me I may be white but I'm not dominat or powerful and I resent being labled in a group just because of the color of my skin

Claim pride for being white if you want to, Comp. It just doesn't make sense to me. Being proud because you are a good husband, citizen, etc. makes sense to me.
Comp said: "I resent being labled in a group just because of the color of my skin". I think that's exactly how a lot of minorities feel.

Okay, comp, then why are you proud to be white?

"BTW, DemandRelevance--Fever Tree I didn't think anybody knew their music but me!!!!! I tried to find their old records on CD a few years ago, but haven't looked lately. That song in particular has suddenly regained a lot of meaning. Thanks for the blast from the past!"

You're welcome!
I lived half my life only mere miles from their home base.
Go to http://www.gemm.com and type in "Fever Tree" (in the blank for the designation for artist) in the search engine at the top of the page. You will be provided an interesting assortment of their material on both vinyl and CD.

I put it in my favorites, DemandRelevance. That looks like a great site.

you want racism? have a "biologically pale skinned" person walk downtown newport news, va, or east side St Louis, or lots of KC, or DC and see what happens. or be darker skinned and go to certain parts of those cities. that's racism because you can't safely. or prejudice if you will. racism doesn't require power. when i walk up to a group of black or "african american" heritaged person and they all quiet down and look at me, hmmm what's that saying. i don't hae boogers haning out my nose or anything "weird" going on. explain that. even in the wild differences are notable. take a wolf of different color than it's group. it's either the dominant wolf or dead. that because its coloring could endanger the group. now this endangering part doesn't hold true for people, but unless you're christian and believe we're uber inbread, we have those same primitave instincts embedded in us. you're statement about white people jazzy no matter how innocent you might truly have meant it to the rest of the "caucasian" group on this site was as offensive as if i had come out and said n*****. don't use your heritage as a crutch, that's bullshit. there are plenty of black people who've become great. there are plenty of white people who've become great. greatness is what you do in life. to someone you're probably great. to someone, namely my child and wife, i'm great(hopefully hehe). i am proud that i'm german. but more so i'm proud that i'm american. even if that a less so every day these last 4 yrs thing. k done ranting everyone have a good weekend. and jazzy, when you look at a "white, caucasian, or however you want to call us" remember we're not all evil. just like not every "black, african-american, etc" person isn't thug or badboy. k?

oh and this is mmnuc3 posting, fricking eli didn't log out on my comp. doh!

nukewaste (mmnuc3) said: "when i walk up to a group of black or "african american" heritaged person and they all quiet down and look at me, hmmm what's that saying. i don't hae boogers haning out my nose or anything "weird" going on."
I know what you're saying. I feel that. Most of us have felt like that when were a minority in a given situation.
I thought we were talking about racism in politics.

Compmore said
"Now I know Jazzmary and MerylStryfe don't mean it the way it sounds (though I'm still taken back by the WHITE is a MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER remark, not understanding the intent) but I do know and have seen and heard minorities generalize whites in unflattering terms and personally I don't see any difference."

Compore, please stop setting up "strawmen" arguments by attempting to say I said that whites were a murderous culture. If you read any of my arguments at length, or with any comprehension, I never said any of those things. If you're going to quote me, at least address the basis of my arguments instead of creating conjecture.

As to you wondering why people consider Condoleeza Rice and Powell as being "tokens," I gave all of the reasons why in this post, which I assume you've read, although I don't think you comprehended any of it - or maybe you skimmed through my points and didn't read the entire thing. I think I explained myself quite clearly. But I'll post it again.

http://www.boycott-riaa.com/article/14640

How can two individuals work for a president - whom many call a "compassionate conservative"

As I said before, Americans are a gulliable and superficial lot. Appearances are always given more weight over facts and reality. I have to say I feel that way about conservatives. They don't care that the president isn't anywhere near a classic "conservative." They don't care that this president has raised the deficit, tripled government, outsourced jobs, or only sent an 11,000 troop force after Bin Ladin - (even though there are more police than that patrolling Manhattan.) No, it just matters that he makes them "feel good" with his bullshit rhetoric. Fact don't matter as long as he looks like he cares about them. Again, people are really naive.

Being a literature student, I know there is such a big difference between appearances versus reality. Yes, Bush is using Rice and Powell as "tokens." If he truly cared about anyone's freedoms - let alone minorities - Bush wouldn't have managed to succeed both Reagan and Bush I in having the worst Civil Rights record of any modern day president.

http://www.boycott-riaa.com/article/14645

I'll use a "hypothetical" example to make it simpler for you to understand. Say a politician wanted to call themselves a Republican. Say that Republican in congress began voting against everything you believed in or stood for. For example, instead of voting for lower taxes, they decided to increase the capital gains tax. Instead of voting against social programs in Congress, they vote for them. Instead of voting to support legislation that would support their Republican President, they vote against every piece of legislation that came down the line that would help that president's agenda. What would you say about that "Republican?"

You would say that he wasn't a true member of your party. He's voting like a Democrat. You would then disown him from your party. Just like I would disown Zell Miller's claim of being a "democrat."Condoleeza Rice and Powell support policies that have been detrimental, not only the the rights of citizens domestically, but internationally. The Affirmative Rights issue is one. Clarence Thomas is the prime example of this. And of course, Powell's and Rice's attempts to help Bush overthrow a democratically-elected government because the president wants to help out major corporations like Disney and Walmart who manufacture goods there. Can't have starving, suffering people in Haiti surviving on a living wage, can we, when it does not benefit the multinational corporations.

As to your hypothetical arguments, they would have some weight if they were based in "reality." My experiences though at several places I've visited with a majority black population - whites were still afforded positions of power. At some of the historically black campuses in this country, white professors - like pacifist and noted historian Howard Zinn who taught at my former campus Spelman, and even many professors at my department - Indians, Asians, Whites, etc; were given positions of power. For those of you who don't know Historically Black Colleges (HBC) came into existence because black students were denied places at white institutions. It's where people like my parents attended university during the times of segregation. And it was not only for black students, but for other students of color at the time who were denied entrance into white institutions like my Dad's best man from India. Now students flock to HBC's because they have the luxury of focusing on their studies instead of race. And unlike many other institutions - like a CNN where black anchor Leon Harris quit last year after nearly 20 years of working because he was never promoted or given assignment unlike his co-anchor Daryn Kagyn and anchor Bill Hemmer, whom he trained were promoted to positions of power over him. Usually minorities (including women up until recently) hit against the "glass ceiling" where you're promoted to a certain point - but never to positions of power.

Anyway, it's frustrating to keep having to repeat myself over and over again. My job is not to be a teacher to the people who just don't want to get it, or the ones who can only "hear" anger and then shut off. I don't think that people - dare I mention compmore, don't understand what people like JazzMary and myself are trying to say. I can't believe that people are that naive, or maybe it's just my experience as a duel minority - black and a woman - that has wizened me up the the way the world operates. I can't believe people don't understand, although they claim they don't. I just believe they just choose not to see, which in my opinion is worse. It's not that they don't understand that these things don't exist, they just choose not to understand. Being willfully blind and ignorant are the lot of those who wish to live a life free of guilt. Everyone suffers, but some people choose to pretend that they don't exist.

And I know, some will say, "You're too angry, get the chip off of your shoulder." Pointing to one's state of mind or emotional state does not dissipate the facts in any situation. It's just my reaction to the way things are. And I'm managing to deal with it by keeping myself aware and getting an education. My job isn't to open minds - or to speak for my people - my job is to be aware and actually give a damn to help change the world - my own.

I meant to say "It's not that they don't understand that these things exist, they just choose not to understand."

duel = dual

As to your hypothetical arguments, they would have some weight if they were based in "reality.

they are. just depends who you are and where you are. I've had different experiences in life then you have. therefore our perspectives are different. I've seen and experienced things (which I've aluded to here) that you haven't and you've seen and experienced things that I haven't. Much of it is our upbringing, lifestyle, place where we live and our race. Just because you haven't experienced what I'm talking about doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just like I'm having a hard time grasping what you're talking about because I haven't experienced it. there is no One right and one wrong in this discussion. it's all based on life experience.

As far as Rice and Powell, I did read your posts and I feel they would take exception with what you said. If Clinton had appointed African Americans in the same positions would you call them tokens? that's my point. they feel they're contributing to this country and their race. you may disagree with their politics or views but that doesn't make them tokens of the white elite.

My job isn't to open minds - or to speak for my people - my job is to be aware and actually give a damn to help change the world - my own.

that is so great. that helps me understand a lot. if more of us would do that this'd be a much better world

If Clinton had supported the same policies as Bush had, I would call them tokens. There's my honest answer. The policies those individuals support matter more than their color.

I see so it doesn't matter that they are bettering their lives, only that they agree with you or not as to weather they are tokens.

It doesn't matter whether they agree with me or not, compmore. Their opinions do not have greater weight than my own, although you might place more weight on their opinions. (Which seems to be the case.) Even a criminal and never take responsibility for their crimes, although their actions say otherwise. Facts always indicates the reality of one's character.

I doubt whether Rice or Powell can look at themselves in the mirror at all considering their inglorious record with the Bush administration - not only in regards to their acts to further this administration's policies. Rice supported the president even after his Brother Jeb and his state of elections board successfully disenfranchised over a million African-American voters in the state of Florida in the 2000 election through fraudlent voter registry "profiling" lists created by such Republican think tank companies as "Choice Point" in Atlanta, Georgia. And of course there are the policies.

Of course, Powell and Rice's role in this administration is no different than house slaves during pre-emancipation times. House slaves worked in the Master House, getting preferential treatment from those in power. They continued to carry out the policies of those in the "House" while continuing to oppress others slaves. They also looked down on upon other "slaves" who worked out in the fields.

There's nothing different in the actions of these house slaves than those of Powell and Rice. And funnily enough, this isn't just the opinion of other blacks that I've talked to. I've talked to many white liberals who feel exactly the same about Powell and Rice.

Of course, most Republicans dismiss the opinions of all "liberals," as mere politicization and "conspiracy." But, it doesn't matter. As I said before, I have as much - if not more intelligence than a Powell and/or a Rice. It doesn't matter what they believe. I know what I see with my own eyes. I think that some conservatives prefer to live in fantasies pieced from whole cloth from the rhetoric of their leading politicians. Maybe there should be a book published called "Fractured Republican Fairy Tales" and "Distorted Conservative Lullabies." I'll even throw in a blindfold so that you can continue to remain in the dark and warm your cockles, buried under a sheet of lies.

There will always be factual information that is refused to be acknowledged by the other side in order to persist in maintaining the lie. Such is life. C'est la vie.

Anyway, this is a discussion in minutae in my opinion. We can go around and around in circles with this argument. It's no better than a dog chasing their tail and going nowhere. Only know that I stand by my opinions unapolegetically, as I take it that you are determined to stand frozen in yours, compmore.

Of course, Powell and Rice's role in this administration is no different than house slaves during pre-emancipation times. House slaves worked in the Master House, getting preferential treatment from those in power. They continued to carry out the policies of those in the "House" while continuing to oppress others slaves. They also looked down on upon other "slaves" who worked out in the fields.

I don't even know how to respond to this. I just can't.... Forget it, I think I have said all I have wanted to say on this topic.

Meryl and Mary. Please, let go of your hate and anger. There are good people out there, don't consider an entire group of people evil and murderious due to the actions of a few bad ones.

Something from Clarence Page.

A surprising black `bump' for Bush

Published October 20, 2004

WASHINGTON -- Could President Bush receive a surprisingly large black turnout on Election Day? Considering recent history, the idea sounds about as likely as pop star Michael Jackson receiving a Man of the Year Award from the Children's Defense Fund. But elections can produce unexpected results. That's why we hold them.

This week I found myself blinking my eyes in disbelief over two major polls that showed a big bump for Bush among likely black voters.

A New York Times poll released Tuesday showed that among likely voters, 47 percent support Bush, 45 percent are for Sen. John Kerry and 2 percent for Ralph Nader.

But in the race breakdown, the Bush-Cheney ticket is buoyed by an amazing 17 percent from African-Americans. (Kerry receives 76 percent of the black voters and Nader only 1 percent.)

Although 17 percent is still less than one in five, it is more than twice the tiny 8 percent turnout that the Bush-Cheney ticket received in the 2000 election.

Also on Tuesday, a poll with a much larger sample of black voters was released by the Washington-based Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies, a leading think tank on black-oriented issues. It showed a very similar African-American boost for the Bush-Cheney ticket: 18 percent versus 69 for Kerry and 2 percent for Nader.

Since the center's poll proved remarkably prescient in the 2000 presidential election, showing 9 percent black support for Bush (only 1 point short of what the ticket actually received), I wondered if a virtual black blowout for Bush was on the way.

David Bositis, the center's senior political analyst, inserted a cautionary note: He thinks Bush will get more like 12 percent to 14 percent at best. Even so, a black defection that large would almost certainly signal doom for Kerry.

What accounts for this black surge in support for Bush?

Bositis says most of it comes from conservative, churchgoing African-Americans who are over age 50, opposed to gay marriage and have not experienced a decline in their incomes during the Bush years.

On the flip side, Kerry's strongest support among African-Americans comes from adults between the ages of 18 and 35 who feel financially worse off than the older generations, according to poll takers.

That marks an unexpected generational switch. In 2000, Bositis said, more members of the black under-35 group called themselves Republicans or independents than any other age bracket. This year, more of them call themselves Democrats than any other age bracket and more of the older voters call themselves Republicans or independents.

Social conservatism is hardly new to us African-Americans, but in the past, our economic and political liberalism kept us voting for Democrats since the days of Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal. This year, Karl Rove, Bush's senior political adviser, urged the president to reach out to evangelicals and other social conservatives and that gesture appears to have paid off among blacks too.

This outreach to black social conservatives may work particularly well with a candidate like Kerry, whose New England reserve varies widely in manner from President Bill Clinton, whose electric ability to connect with black crowds is legendary.

I suspect Bush's high-level black Cabinet appointments--like Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice-- make him more palatable among African-Americans, even among those who disagree with him on many social and economic issues. A little symbolism can go a long, long way.

All of which poses a big challenge for Kerry. Younger voters of all races may give him the most support, but they also have the lowest voter turnout rates.

Better news may await Kerry in the crucial swing states, which can vary widely from national trends. An Ohio statewide poll by the University of Cincinnati, for example, shows that in a swing state where voters are quite evenly divided overall, only 3 percent of African-Americans support Bush and 95 percent support Kerry. Ohio's heavy decline in manufacturing jobs in recent years appears to have given Kerry a big boost among black voters there.

Nevertheless, the polling figures should be a loud wake-up call for those Democratic leaders inclined to take black voters for granted. No constituency is guaranteed to any party, not even in a year of extremely polarized politics.

"you want racism? have a "biologically pale skinned" person walk downtown newport news, va, or east side St Louis, or lots of KC, or DC and see what happens."

No kidding. If you get confused on MLK bridge in East St. Louis and take a wrong turn, then tell your passengers to hide and hope they don't hit you while you're driving. A couple months ago a white guy from chicago stopped there and asked for directions and they shot him and left. Didn't even take anything.

And what's this crap about the Sox? GO CARDINALS!

Meryl and Mary. Please, let go of your hate and anger. There are good people out there, don't consider an entire group of people evil and murderious due to the actions of a few bad ones.

Again, Azure, I never said I consider all white people as "murderous" and bad, or I wouldn't be dating one. Please stop misquoting me.

And Sherm, I'm just glad that someone beat the evil empire the NY Yankees. The Soxs have made me instant fans just by making the Yankees eat crow. GO SOX!

bah!!

Well, I kind of understand. I'm glad they beat them too. And I said a couple months ago that if we get to the WS and lose, I'd rather lose to the Sox than anyone else. I like them myself, but not for the next week and a half I don't.

merylstryfe they are not house slaves just because they support an administration you don't like. with this kind of rethoric no wonder we can't get past the racial problem in this country. the racial problem works both ways. As far as Jeb Bush INTENTIONALLY disenfranchising Blacks I won't go into that because it would be pointless. Just like the Dems tried to disenfranchis members of the armed forces. this is the kind of political hatred in this site that has clouded so much. If Bush went in the direction YOU think he should've went you'd hold Rice and Powell up as heros of African Americans.

Your view of weither they're tokens, houseslaves or not IS totally dependent on your political views of the administration. Did you ever stop to think overall they support the administration? how would that make them house slaves? this is just as damaging as Racism

Compore.. see how easy it is to throw people together without the facts when it comes to "race?" Meryl and I don't even know each other, we are only congruent in some thoughts here, by virtue of sharing the same experiences and posting on the same site. Yet, like grains of sushi rice, we are lumped together in to some gelatinous mass of sameness.. We are trying to explain our positions in our own way, in other words, having a discussion.. from our own points of view.

Point number 2.. You seem to take issue with my statement, MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER.
Why does that upset you so much? Here is your homework. Go to the library and read Lerone Bennett's "Before the Maryflower," and Howard Zinn's "The People's History of the United States." Then get back with me and tell me what you have learned.. because, so far, you ain't gettin' what I'm sayin' here. I am referring to the pandering of the politicians to the worst aspects of the culture, instead of inspiring us to get along better. All cultures have had, at one point, the same goals, MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER.. but ya gotta admit, these awful characteristics have been subconciously played out in this political season.. and aimed at people who are proud to be "white".. and that includes Clarence Thomas.. anyone who is one in a group of many is a "minority" and will feel the social and cultural pressures from the "majority" group.. I experience this EVERY DAY of my life, but when you expand this false judgement to a whole group of people and expect them to quietly accept your "superiority," a whole new dimension emerges.. You don't like it when it happens to you, as you said.. got news for ya, Compmore, nobody likes it.. Yet, Bush and Cheney run around to the areas of this country where only one kind of face appears in the rallys, and calls it diversity.. inflaming "their" fears and predjudices in the worst way. I just want folks who have not previously considered this to examine the "racial" issues.. and I have every right to add my definition of what I think that is.. as an American citizen!

hi, Carla.. I don't get the jump in support from the "black" population for Bush, either.. the only thing I can come up with is that they are superreligious homophobes.. which I was enlightend to by the book by J.L. King, "On the Down Low." Has anyone else here read that book?

.. tell ya what After reading all these posts.. I realized that we are all mutts here! We are all blends of some of this and some of that.. what a great country!!

Last post today.. gotta go.. I meant that post to go to Azurre.. who lumped me and Meryl together.. the homework assignment still stands, tho....

I like looking at faces (especially African-Americans) to see the blend of ethnic characteristics.

And hats off for bringing genotype and phenotype into the conversation

Barack Obama is so interesting looking. He had a good line against Keyes yesterday. Let me find it.

From Chicago Tribune columnist Eric Zorn's blog.

There was a knockout blow, that elusive cliché of the political debate coverage, and Obama delivered it near the end of zesty exchange--round VIII think it was--after a Full Metal Alan discursion on whether Jesus would vote for Obama.

If you didn't see it, the following transcript of the lead-in doesn't really do justice to the Church-lady certitude in Keyes' voice. But here it is:

When I look at where Christ stands and I look at where Sen. Obama stands based upon that record of Christ's understanding which we acknowledge as Christians to be the true record, I say well, Christ is over here, Sen. Obama is over there.

The two don't look the same. And that means that I'm not thinking about Alan Keyes. I am thinking about the Lord.

And to say I don't have the right to do that (note: no one did) means that you're trying to suggest that my faith-shaped conscience has no place in our politics.

And yet if I go into the voting booth or into public life without my faith-shaped conscience, then I have no conscience, for the Lord said I must love him with my whole heart soul mind and strength. There is nothing left over.

Without faith there is just a faith-shaped void where the conscience ought to be.

And I challenge all the voters of this state who profess to believe in Christ: How can you vote from such a faith-shaped void?

Without the Lord, your vote will not be based upon that faith which ought to shape your life.

And for anyone to suggest that you leave it behind at the door of the voting booth or public service suggests something utterly incompatible with what the Lord ourself -- himself rather-- told us about the meaning of our faith.
This amounted to Keyes throwing himself on the ropes and dropping his gloves: The weird self-righteousness of it all, the oppressiveness of his expressions of faith, the vicious insult to those who don't share his beliefs and, finally, the phony self-pity that he sprinkles over nearly every utterance.

"The Lord ourself" indeed. Calling Dr. Freud.

To begin his response, Obama delivered a few sharp jabs:

I don't need Mr. Keyes lecturing me about Christianity. That's why I have a pastor. That's why I have my Bible. That's why I have my own prayer.

And I don't think any of you are particularly interested in having Mr. Keyes lecture you about your faith.

What you're interested in is in solving problems like jobs and health care and education.

Then came the roundhouse left -- the haymaker that effectively ended the debate in a race that has been over since before it began:

I'm not running to be the minister of Illinois, I'm running to be its United States Senator.

Bring out the smelling salts and throw in the towel.

jazzmary I understand what you're saying about politics and the pandering to a social class. that part is clear and I know you experience it in a way I never could. at the same time there are generalities (in your efforts to explain your views) toward the dominant white class that you're making too.

All cultures have had, at one point, the same goals,

agreed 100%

.. but ya gotta admit, these awful characteristics have been subconciously played out in this political season.. and aimed at people who are proud to be "white"..

absolutly. you are right. as much as the dems are trying to convice blacks that the republicans are INTENTIONALLY (there's the key word) engaging in a conspiracy to supress their votes. it's a scare tactic playing on the fears of a particular group of people. Seniors are targeted by dems, women are being targeted by Republicans. you are right. BOTH parties are doing it.

Point number 2.. You seem to take issue with my statement, MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER.

when you apply it to whites and I'm white, sorry but yes I do. I understand your points but not how generalizing whites into this fits.

I also have the issue of calling Powell and Rice tokens. my last post explains why. they may be wrong, they may be liars, that's a matter of political view and is a legitemet issue. I disagree about them being liars and wrong but I won't go into that. however calling them tokens or house slaves because they support an administration is irresponsible. I'm willing to bet they don't consider themselves that. I don't know what job you do but if you had a job where the owners of the business, or corporation, are white and you suport that company either because you believe in what that company stands for or it supplys you with a means to take care of your family. You probably would take issue if an African American who hates that company called you a token.

You don't like it when it happens to you, as you said.. got news for ya, Compmore, nobody likes it..

no kidding, that's why I pointed it out. I'm hearing the same thing here that you resent hearing in your daily life.

.. tell ya what After reading all these posts.. I realized that we are all mutts here! We are all blends of some of this and some of that.. what a great country!!

yes it is and we can walk away from this, if not understanding each other, respecting each other.

Your view of weither they're tokens, houseslaves or not IS totally dependent on your political views of the administration. Did you ever stop to think overall they support the administration? how would that make them house slaves? this is just as damaging as Racism

Oh, come off of it compmore. My view of whether Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice are bad people is not as damaging as racism. Can't even compare. Rice and Powell are furthering the agenda of an administration who's policy on Civil Rights is the worst in modern history. And that's saying something considering the past actions of presidents like Reagan and Nixon. I see Powell and Rice for who they are. And if the analogy of house slave fits, it fits. Again, people misunderstand "tokenism." A black face does not mean that Bush is a "tolerant" person, as his "folksy" attitude does not mean Bush cares about the little guy. (See former Nixon Counsel's book "Worse than Watergate: the Secret Presidency of George W. Bush" for more analysis on Bush's persona. And I quote,

"In looking at the Bush-Cheney White House, I found it not unlike Nixon's in that it spends far more time crafting the president's public image and working on the politics of reelection than on trutly addressing the business of the American People. - Preface page XV, "Worse than Watergate: The Secret Presidency of George W. Bush" by John W. Dean.

This administration wants to craft the image of him being "compassionate" to all the issues of the American people - minorities included, while on the other hand, he does something completely different in policy. As much as you'd like to believe that "Powell" and "Rice" are not complicit in this agenda, that's completely naive.

I had high respect for Powell in the past. That respect has all but evaporated, since many - especially the poor in urban areas who have had to do the fighting for Bush in his two modern wars - have died because of the lies he has pushed forth. That respect extended to Powell even during his tenures under the Bush and Reagan administrations where he served under several administration posts. His political denomination did not matter, because Powell was a man of respect. That's changed now.

Powell has lost his dignity, by unquestionally carrying out the plans of an administration who has gotten us into a war based on forged documents and manipulated intelligence. And before one says, this was not manipulated, Powell himself said in 2001-2 that Iraq had no WMD programs and could be controlled through containment.

Powell has also supported this administration's coup of democratically-elected governments like Haiti, who RE-ELECTED Jean-Betrand Aristide by 80% of the popular vote. I watched Powell on a C-Span interview before a congressional committee where he called the armed resistance trying to overthrow Aristide's government "armed thugs, drug dealers, and militia from the Baby Doc Duvalier" era. But when Bush declared he wanted Aristide gone, Powell changed his story and told a completely different one before the UN.

If Powell had any shred of dignity he would have resigned. But of course, he's getting a cushy salary and perks from his connections to the Carlyle Group (an investment group in Washington which continues to benefit off of military contracts passed through Washington.) And who can forget his son got a position at the FCC for aligning him with the Bushies. Powell is following the agenda of people Bush I called "crazy."

Of course, there's sweet Condoleeza Rice. She seems the extraodinary loyal National Security Advisor to her best friend Bush. As Powell, Rice is bought and sold. She's often been called the Bush administration's "poorest millionaire." She's held jobs on Conaco-Exxon's board of directors. She's also had an oil rig named after her. So, of course she would cheerfully carry out any of the policies that are put before her because she has too many connections to high and powerful men to not do what they want her to do.

And Jazz Mary, I agree with your statement that you and I are lumped together because of race. I say this because no one has had the clarity to address any arguments with being rational or subverting to logical fallacies.

As I said before, I think it's a waste of my time to post here, because I don't even bother to read what I say without becoming defensive. Why bother to read something when you think you know what that person has already said. I've been in plenty of situations like this one before. For me, it's a damn waste of time. I don't usually bother to discuss issues of race because I know that most are stolidly-frozen in their own petty viewpoints. And they'll use everything weapon at their disposal to try deny another's reality. They deny it, not because they don't believe it's true. It's because if they have to look, they might just see a part of themselves staring back from those very situations. What they see might not be very pretty. It would mean they'd have to muster some courage in whatever is left of their quiet, desperate lives and change.

I'm used to having my opinions about race, politics, gender, or even my own emotional reality questioned and discounted by others. I've learned though, I must trust that reality is indeed true. No one will ever validate it. People usually don't argue or discuss things without any semblance of logic or intellectual honesty without reverting back to the rhetoric which they have steeped themselves in. Of course, they'll argue that the other side is doing this at all times. But, I just believe they haven't learned the art of actuallty "listening" or "comprehending" the other's side. That's why they can't refute something point by point.

For me, Mary, the three philosophers that stand describe my life perfectly are Nietzsche, Ralph Waldo Emerson and Ralph Waldo Ellison. Although Nietzsche used the example of Christians, he believed that they were unable to adhere to their own highest values. Thus, as a result, their own values become meaningless. Some in here who believe that they are "good folks" or "honest" or "rational" or whatever, cannot adhere to their own "highest values" or beliefs about themselves, since they cannot discuss certain topics without reverting to the emotional rhetoric which they've been taught all their lives.

Emerson, taught me about relying on my own experience and inner intelligence as truth.

"He would utter opinions on all passing affairs, which being seen to be not private, but necessary, would sink like darts into the ear of men, and put them in fear.

These are the voices which we hear in solitude, but they grow faint and inaudible as we enter into the world. Society everywhere is in conspiracy against the manhood of every one of its members. Society is a joint-stock company, in which the members agree, for the better securing of his bread to each shareholder, to surrender the liberty and culture of the eater. The virtue in most request is conformity. Self-reliance is its aversion. It loves not realities and creators, but names and customs. " - Ralph Waldo Emerson, Self-Reliance.

I.e. trust in yourself and your own experiences Mary, not in the "opinions" of other folks who "pretend to know better."

Ellison, of course, describes my position in this society as an "invisible." Others see me, and you, through the eyes of their stereotypes. Any challenge to those fractured fairytales they've been taught all their lives by others disturbs them completely. Instead, we, as "others" are supposed to accept their worldview as "true" just because they said so. But, of course, our experiences and our everyday lives tell us that the world is otherwise.

Some would like to dismiss my arguments by using the "you hate all white people" argument. I DO NOT hate white people, as some folks in here continue to try and profilgate. Bogus. I don't hate anyone. My boyfriend's white. But, what I hate is intellectual dishonesty and people's actions. That's what I judge people on. I can't say that many of you can do the same. Your problem with me is that you want to believe that I hate, therefore you can dismiss everything I say. You can believe that if a person has a chip on their shoulder, then you can stop listening to that person. My only problem is that unlike many others, I'm definitely honest about my opinions. Unlike many others, I don't mince words to "play" nice.

It's obvious you haven't read any of my posts, as I have said earlier, nor have you understood their content - since you continually take much of what I say out of context. You view the rest of my opinions through filtered glasses. That's why issues of race never get honestly discussed and never get solved. Honesty is lacking.

Discussions like these truly make me laugh, now Mary. I only participated in this one because the previous posts I read really grated on me. You thought you were the only African-American on these boards, I just wanted to let you know that you were not alone. I've been through similar discussions about race, like this one, time and time again. To me their pointless, because I truly believe the other side doesn't want to be honest - for whatever reason - whether it is having to look deeply into their own actions. Most people really don't want to do this, because they are intellectually lazy.I've just accepted the fact that people stuck in their viewpoints will never change. Maybe you used the wrong words that were really divisive, Mary, but I know you were trying to address the major problem that is racism in this country. Of course, those not affected by it, always tire of hearing about it. It's like a person tired of hearing about a another person's illness. They might feel sorry for that individual, but they get sick of hearing about it, because they feel that there's
a) nothing they can do about it,
b)they just don't give a damn,
c)say it's in the person's mind or
d)hope the person shuts up about it and they can forget about it.

But, of course the people suffering through it, do give a damn because they're the ones who have to live through it.

I can only sum it up this whole discussion in this way. I was arguing about issues of race in a chatroom once. A young black woman said to me, "Why argue about racism? It's pointless because they (those stuck in their mindsets) are not going to change." At first, I thought the girl was out of her mind.

Several years later - after dealing with messes like this one - I see that her advice was well given. I've just accepted that some people are not going to change, Mary. The only thing you can do is change yourself. Raise your kids to be aware that racism does exist and get educated to deal with it. And try not to sink to the level as those who are ignorant and who want tol try to deny that reality.

I meant to say "As much as you'd like to believe that "Powell" and "Rice" ARE complicit in this agenda, that's completely naive." I wish there was an edit button on this board.

Sherm said
"bah!!

Well, I kind of understand. I'm glad they beat them too. And I said a couple months ago that if we get to the WS and lose, I'd rather lose to the Sox than anyone else. I like them myself, but not for the next week and a half I don't."

Hehe, Sherm, If the Red Sox were playing against the Braves, I'd feel the same way. Unfortunately, the Braves punked out this season. They didn't even make it to the championship, so I'll have to wait until next year.

I'm not the only one being defensive. think of them what you like. that's your right. but when you inject racial sterotypes into the mix it IS as bad. that's my view. Tokens and houseslaves is a racial view based on the fact you don't like the administration they support. They have a differnt view I'm sure.

Yes, it is my right.

JazzMary, the reason I "lumped" you and Meryl together was because you both had similarities in what you posted. I don't know if you are both black or white and I don't care. I didn't group you by color, especially since I don't know or care what color you both are.

Meryl, I am sorry you thought I meant you in the murderious quote, I meant that for Jazzmary, since it was her who said it. My appologies.

As to the homework assignment. Jazz, I know the history of the europeans who came to America. I know about the horrible things that cultures have done. What do you want me to to? I did agree with you though, EVERY culture has sought to conquer the other or expand their land. Be it white, black, latino, or asian. Do I agree with what people in the past have done? No. Slavery-No, Wars-No, Rape and Murder-No. But before you start quoting history to me saying how "whites did this and whites did that." Look at who did these things, was it every white person? No it was a King select group of people. Are all germans evil cause of the Nazis? No, because all germans weren't nazis. In fact, a small amount were, the others were scared. And rightfully so, because the nazis were killing people they didn't like. Did the soviets want communism? No, but the people in power were slaughtering those who disagreed. And even now, in the Sudan, do you think those people want the ethnic cleansing? No, but people in power are trying to do it. Don't hold everyone accountable for the actions of people in power. Espcially when those in power got there through violence and fear.

Azurre. You have not seen either one of us, therefore is it with cultural perameters that you link us..

Now, to the rest of your post. In each and every case you present, one commonality exists.. the people who benefited greatly from these atrocious activities did not examine or question the bevy of lies that must accompany this kind of cultural activity.. just like now.. folks choose to be blind to what was/is going on because it means forfeiting their privileges and profits from these cultural systems. Besides, it is easier when you have it all to just enjoy, party, not question, not protest, not know anything but what the "dominant, majority" culture (education, government, religious) tells you, no matter what the reality is. Besides, name me one "white" king.

Another interesting book to check out is "Lies My Teacher Told Me."

MerylStryfe.. thank you. I,too, have had countless conversations where I have been expected to explain and define my experiences with other diversities, while the other side sits and judges the veracity of my answers through the cultural prism I am discussing here.. but I see the value of this thread and all who are in this, because others would be reading it and know that, as irritated as we become, as brutally honest as we post, we all respect each other as opponents.. and, to me, that is important, because you cannot have this kind of thorough discussion about so sensitive a subject without a base of common respectability..and that includes compmore, who I thank for the last post.. commonality is, indeed, possible.. and retain both sides..

thank you. no anomosity here either. I'm just speaking from my experience as you all are

True, Jazz Mary. It just takes a lot out of me to write these answers sometimes, though . As we all are compmore.

King Henry the 8th, King William, King Ferdanan. Charlemagne.

As for profitting, I don't see how the germans, soviets, or sudanese are profitting from what happened or is happening to them. Germany and the soviet union were economicoly crushed after the nazis and the fall of communism. 80% of the sudanese have no homes of lives left.

"Besides, it is easier when you have it all to just enjoy, party, not question, not protest, not know anything but what the "dominant, majority" culture (education, government, religious) tells you, no matter what the reality is."

The nazis were less then 5 percent of the population. But it matters little Jazz, because you will only hear what you want to hear and see what you want to see.
I have no anger towards you, I even respect your opinion and have served in the service so that you can have one. I will no longer attempt to post on this thread, I see little reasoning to. Thank you for everyone who has read my postings, thank you for your time.

and when did these kings proclaim themselves "white?" Cite the source, year, circumstance. And your answer just proved my point.. the ignorant complicity of the masses of the citizenry and the willingness to stay silent, do nothing, follow orders without examination or education ..just so they can enjoy a little of what they think is the advantages of the dominant culture.. lets the few rule the many... betcha a lot of Germans at the rise of Nazism thougt they were doing the good thing for their people.. same here with George W. who had to steal an election amongst the few folks who voted.. what, less than 25% and five Supreme Court judges? We shoud get offa our ass and vote, so this will not happen to us!! Azzure.. you must study.. because we offer books and materials to read to broaden the scope on this subject.. where is yours.. and everyone filters now, don't they.. did I not post that already?

VOTE. VOTE. VOTE. VOTE.

The RIAA is a good example of this without using a "color" reference. Artists are stumbling all over themselves to be part of an evil structure.. because the glam, the money, etc.. they desire a piece for themselves without having to put in all the work. Folks download the crack-music, even through the RIAA pitbull-lawyers barking that they will"get caught." Why? They have been trained by the RIAA machine that there is no better music, no better way to succeed, etc.. And how many years did this go on.. and goes on today until you open your eyes to reality and begin to educate yourself.. The RIAA is a microcosm of the larger cultural structure in this country.. see what I mean??

VOTE.

Well I just figured they were white since they were a "MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER."

Jazz, keep claiming whatever you wish. Yes, I am white. So I am ignorant, murderous, and "doing a good thing for my people." I use all my power being the dominant race in DC (oh wait, I am not.) to crush all those that I see who don't look like me. I have friends of every race, but they are just tokens. I also try to make sure that all other races make less money and get less respect then my race. -sarcasm-
ps-New York post reported a story how Asian and African american MBA's make the most on a scale of salaries by race. DC is a melting pot, with many cultures. Perhaps you should see it some time.
Also, check some of these out.
http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/dc/williams.html
Interesting reading, from the Washington Post.

Scratch that link, I got the wrong post.

Scratch that link, I got the wrong post.

sorry, the link I wanted to show you, you need to be a washingtonpost.com member to read.

Azurre, I don't care.. you can be whoever you wish.. like Meryl, that is your right. I am just asking you to think and know why you align yourself...

oh, hehe just had to break the 200 mark. congrats it's 201!