May I point to the 800-pound gorilla sitting in the middle of these political discussions.. and I only do this because the posters here have the fervor and curiosity to do the homework.. That big gorilla I speak about is Racism.

Am I the only african-american here? Sure sounds like it sometimes because certain assumptions keep emerging in the posts. The Ku-Klux-Klan was/is a terrorist organization composed of "Christian,""upstanding" members of many communities in this country.. Yeah, you say, that has nothing to do with me, but the ideas of racism are like a low-range hum that permeates all the politics here.. you can hear it but no one wants to admit it.

Now, hear me out.. Bush, by speaking to WHITE people, indicates that he is going to lead and save WHITE people. ..and don't give me any of that token-black stuff.. Condeleeza this and Colin that and Michael whatever.. those people act more WHITE than WHITE folks.. now my definition here is that WHITE is NOT A RACE!!

Again.. White is NOT a race.. got it?? WHITE is a MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER. Racists consider themselves, somehow, superior and separate from "the rest of us" and need protection and "to be safe" from the world. That is why we jumped a non-christian, brown country.. People who call themselves WHITE also think that they have SUPERIOR DOMINANCE over all .. so we can suck oil out of anywhere to power our huge, gas-guzzling suv's that turn the riches of the earth into pollution that kills us all, then invent air-conditioning and hepa filtering to protect "their" children.. People who identify with this think they have the right to tell "any inferior being" such as women, what and when and how to do anything to their bodies. That is why you see proliferate ads and giveaways for Viagra and other sex-enhancing products, and NO reference to condoms, education, or safe-sex for women.. and no power over her sexual or reproductive rights.. after all, you have control, right??

Apply this cultural standard to yourself.. and a whole lot of this ultrareligious rhetoric begins to make sense. The more you are aware of this gorilla, the more you will focus on some of the codewords and some of the real issues that are surfacing to further divide this country.. from Willie Horton to the swift-boat argument, this drones on... Notice, for instance, that none of the swiftboat critics of Kerry in this discusting political adare brown, or asian, or anything.. that is a clue. Notice that every Bush ad has no (ok, maybe one token) black folk.. no where.. Notice the theme of "safety from the world" the unknown, the uncontrollable.. and need I mention, Soccer moms became Security moms?? Are you beginning to see what I am talking about.. and one more thing, do NOT bore me with the "that was my forefathers and not me" :poop: because if you enjoy the residual wealth and RESULTS of their actions, you are, as a citizen of this country, involved.. if you can heed the words laid out in the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, which was laid out by our .. as you say ... forefathers, you can grow up and accept the bad stuff as well.

As we enjoy our freedoms established generations ago, we can acknowledge the priveleges we inherited as well.. OK, that is all for now. I hope this stimulate some honest, intelligent discussion.. and, please, leave the name-calling, flame throwers at home.

Read "A Desperate White House" by Margaret Kimberly, which is an excellent commentary in one of my favorite sites, www.blackcommentator.com In fact, check out the whole site, which intelligently discusses politics from the black side of this American Culture, with plenty of links for more information/opinion.

I really don't have much experience on this topic however race is always played in political campaigns. Candidates always reach out to minorities. pandering for votes. I'm not sure if that qualifies as racism or pandering. The Willie Horton ad was indeed playing on racial fears and prompted me to vote for Dukakus. Weather it's a concious effort of racism or pandering to a voting block like attending activities important to women or Catholics I'm not sure.

It's definatly a topic to examine and both parties are full of White rich men so we need to keep an open eye to this. One thing however, dispite all our bickering here about the issue I really don't see any racism in our comments. if it's hidden, it's not intentional and could either be lack of sensitivity, lack of education, or over sensitivity from others. all three are possibilities.

Personally I have to disagree with one thing and I may have read it wrong. but White is a race. I'm white, therefore I'm of the caucasion race, proud of it and don't consider myself (or everyone I know) a MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER. Racism is not just unique to the white race.

Absolutely, speak the truth. I give Code Warrior hell on the phone very day about the Waco crowd, home of Bob Jones University and the Branch Davidians. It is ALL ABOUT CODE WORDS. This has only recently come to be interpreted as signals to the fundamentalists, rather than racist talk. And Waco and Crawford Texas are ground zero for the Late Rise of Rise of the New Confederacy.

Plantation owners.

Cheap disposable labor.

Let them workers flow across the Rio Grande. When they get sick, move them out to Florida, California, or Wash Stae for seasonal work. No need to concern oneself with work conditions, OSHA or workers' comp, unions, or health care. The same third world exploitation of labor that goes on time immemorial.

The kind of conscripted laborers that were shot, whipped, worked and bled to death on the levee construction projects in the state next over, Mississippi, in the recent 1920's. Missisippi was The former center of the White Citizen's Council. Now that honor has passed over to Texas.

Mary, I have spent one tough year back home here in Virginia, the site of the Brown vs Board of Education battle zone. In Prince Edward County, for six years the public schools were closed, rather than integrate. Those kids in the late fifties were denied education for SIX YEARS!

So the code words were always in place, and it was only righteous that Trent Lott got spanked for his code speech. But still it goes on and on.

I have lost some focus recently, it is true, Mary, and been diverted by the waving of the bloody flag of fundamental religion and the battles over Darwin and Row v Wade. It really is and has always been about racism, Mary. The code words are for that purpose.

If it hasn't been said plainly enough, we all admire your unwavering committment and exhortations for us all to go out and vote, and convince our neighbors of the same.

Thank you for that.


I think you may have shown some interest in Phillip Roth's latest book, "The Plot Against America." http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618509283/102-7971150-1100958?
v=glance

This is the alternative time-continuum plot that speculates what if Lindberg had become President of the US, and the assumption that the America First fascist crowd would have let England burn and fall into the ocean.

I am fascinated with Phillip Roth's canon of work. He is a formidable and cranky intellect, and "The Human Stain" is sorta intersting. (Not the movie--please....) But again, I don't think a white person should dare to presume he could walk in a black person's shoes or write a book plot about it.

So the secondary wave of criticisms are rolling in from the critics at NY Times and Wash Post about "The Plot Against America," saying, hey, sure Lindberg probably would have set loose the hounds of genocide against the American Jews---but you all seem to have forgotten one thing.

The vast waves of BLACK LYNCHINGS that took place all over America between 1918 and 1964. That amounts in itself to a dispora, does it not?

And here's a little tidbit to chew on:

WACO holds the world's records for lynchings in that period.

I rest my case.

Same here comp. I'm not sure what she meant by white. She said Bush is speaking to white people and she defines white as not a race.

I'm not sure if that was for convenience purposes so she could refer to a specific group of people in her article or if she actually believes that.

Mary is right. Scientifically there is no such thing as races because there is no
unambiguous way to describe it.

Species are valid concepts because the test is non-ambiguous: If two individuals can breed
and if their descendants can breed also then they are of the same species.

But let see about races. My skin is white and the genetic difference between me and my
brother is let say 1000. The genetic difference between my black neighbor and I will be
typically 1001. But it could be 1002 with my other "Caucasian white" neighbor. How
you can classify us into races?

The greatest stupidity of all about race came from the Nazi when they invented the Jew
race. There is no Jew race. Jew is a religion and a culture not a race.

The real issue there is not to fall for those that try to convince you that you are from a
superior category of human beeing and that your neighbor because he look different is a
danger.

This is true racism is still there harming our societies. We should gather together and fight this type of inferior people regardless of our skin color culture, religion or political party affiliation starting there in USA.

technicly if there's no such thing as races, then there's no such thing as racism.

The Jewish people are unique in that they are a Religion, a culture and a race.

even so if white is not a race, I'm still not comfortable with being labled

WHITE is a MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER.

Sorry I know racism, sexism, and agism is still out there and a serious problem to be addressed, but I think we're reaching a bit far here.

For a biologist there is no race period.

But there is racism and the racism consist in trying to separate people into "race" weaken them by division and control them. The racists are those stupid enought to go with it. I am sorry to say that these racists are prominent and dangerous. Some imfamous example are Milochevic, Ariel Sharon, and Ben laden.

Those that fall in the trap and think that their ethnic group are better than the other group are racist. Are you Racist compmore?

Technically, there is such a thing as race.

And biologically, there are definite differences in the genetic makeup of pure blacks vs. pure whites vs. pure asians. The differences are pretty small, but it's not like all races are the same. And it's hard to draw a line on an individual's race since such a high percentage of people have a mixed heritage. Should I make the disclaimer that I don't think that any of them are "better than the other"? Judging from the above post, I better cover my bases.

"Jew is a religion and a culture not a race."

It's an ethnicity, just to clarify.

Mary, I completely understand your point of view. You've made very good observations. Tom, thanks for your insight.
I'm a Christian, actually raised Catholic. The religious speech of this administration and its supporters makes me very, very uncomfortable. I attended Catholic schools for 12 years before leaving my neighborhood for college. I grew up with a FEAR of God. A fear of dying in my sleep with SINS on my soul (fighting with my brother and sister two times, disobeying my parents one time). A fear of going to hell. A fear that my maternal grandparents, who were (shudder) Protestant, would die before I could convert them to Catholicism and therefore not go to heaven. So, what's my point? Fear is a strong emotion. Fear can be used to control. Convincing people that you have all the right answers because you have strong religious convictions is all about control. Lead the sheep. Tell them to be afraid, be very afraid. Then tell them that you will take care of them, because you love them and the whole country. And again, because you love them so much, you will kill their enemies - the ones who have evil in their hearts - the ones who don't respect life - the culture of life - pro-life - anti-choice. Just leave everything to the government who is guided by God.

Lachatte, you could be one of the Pryor kids. Do you watch American Dreams (Sundays on NBC 8:00 Eastern time)? I absolutely love this show and it always makes me weepy.

Ever since my parents switched to the Republican party in the mid 60's, I knew it was basically about racism.

No, I don't Carla. But my daughter does. I'll ask her about the Pryor kids tonight.

Compmore.. it doesn't surprise me, given your previous posts, that you have some understandings to gain to realize what I am explaining here. First.. do you KNOW any black folks? Live in your neighborhood, maybe dialog with more than the tokens at work? If not, check yoself no-1.. A monolithic cultural environment.. a la Friends on TV.. is NOT AMERICA.Is your church integrated, addressing issues of all cultures, any outreach, both now and when you were growing up?? No? Check yoself no 2.. You choose to call yourself WHITE.. that means that you align yourself with the culture that promotes these activities.. What are you, really? Human.. Irish-American, Italian-American.. see what I mean.. all these Europeans with proud ancestries arrived here, and became not extensions of the old country.. but blended into WHITENESS, therefore giving a lazy identification, by skin color, of the new culture.. and it extends to this day.. want more dialog? Check "Working on the Chain Gang," by Walter Mosley. It is an excellent book about explaining what I am talking about.
Want more about residual priveledge?? A labor department report was issued THIS MONTH, stating that the average net worth of "White" households is not 14 percent, but 14 TIMES the net worth of "Black" families.. Where did all that money come from, and why is it so unequal??

I don't know what you're talking about with my previous posts. I'm not a racist never have been. yes I know blacks so what?

You choose to call yourself WHITE.. that means that you align yourself with the culture that promotes these activities..

that is as much of a sterotype as you are fighting. just because someone doesn't agree doesn't make them a racist. does everyone who calls themselves an arab align themselves with the radicals cutting off peoples heads? Just because I don't hold with the far leftist bleeding heart everyones a victim of the white opressors doesn't make me a racist. I'm as much proud of being white caucasian as you are being African American. I respect that in you, doesn't sound like you respect that in me.

BTW I do agree with all the inequalities of the workplace and that is an issue that continues to need to be addressed

Jazzmary -- Have you seen the Chris Rock riff on the difference between being rich and being wealthy?

Bush is on the side of the wealthy.

The very first sign of not understanding is fervent denial.. and it ALWAYS begins with the statement... "I am not a... " and if calling yourself white is a stereotype, it is a mighty widely practiced one. No, disagreement does not make you a racist, denial does, however.. because you refuse to see OR investigate. That you KNOW is merely enough, and nothing more needs to be done, because obviously you have the true answer. Look inside at your statments again, Compmore, because you continue to exhibit the arrogance that accompanies this cultural standard.. Go back, read up, discuss HONESTLY amongst the diversity (if any) that you come into contact with, and get back with me. BTW.. I do not call myself Black, per se, for the same reasons.. RACE is not a COLOR, it is a CULTURE..

I never said I refused to see or investigate. I mearly made the statement that I didn't see the point you were making. look at my first post.
suddenly I'm being called a racist. who's the closed minded one here.

you've already made up your mind so there's nothing I can say or do to convince you. has nothing to do with denial. I don't deny there are serious problems in equal treatment and issues that need to be addressed. I am not racist and I say that with pride. We all have different life experiences and our desire to understand each other works both ways. I have read up on it, took college classes on the subject, I just have a slightly different perspective.

Respect works both ways. you've gotta give it to get it.

"May I point to the 800-pound gorilla sitting in the middle of these political discussions.. and I only do this because the posters here have the fervor and curiosity to do the homework.. That big gorilla I speak about is Racism."

George Bush is not a racist. He loves the brown people. I know because he said so:

"Some of the debate really center around the fact that people don't believe Iraq can be free; that if you're Muslim, or perhaps brown-skinned, you can't be self-governing and free. I strongly disagree with that."

George Bush - April 13, 2004

So if you are not in favor of the war, then you are obviously a racist.

But seriously, I think it's interesting how Bush flipped the race card on that one. I read Kimberly's article and she is on the money.

"Candidates always reach out to minorities. pandering for votes."

Actually you are wrong, compmore. Bush shunned the NAACP in order to pander for votes from his base. So he did the opposite of what you are saying.

Bush also twisted the truth when he claimed that he met with the Congressional Black Caucus in the debate. What really happened:

"The caucus members got to see Bush only after showing up at the White House gate and refusing to leave until the president agreed to meet with them, according to the group's leader. ...

Caucus members were greeted by Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and national security advisor Condoleezza Rice. But they were told flatly, "The president is not on the premises," recalled Candice Tolliver, the group's communications director.

Caucus members then said they wouldn't leave until they could meet with Bush. Fifteen minutes later, the president showed up."

http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/002763.html

Notice how when the black people show up, the White House sends out some fellow darkies to meet them? Too funny.

..where is it that I call you anything, compmore?? It is your REACTION that I am addressing. I can appreciate that you are proud. but pride is the problem.. it is humility and humanity that bridges the cultural gaps here. That is what I am getting at.. we need to understand each other, not stand in our repective corners and stare ominously, waiting for the next "assumption." Read my first post, it says nothing about compmore there. And mroop, I get it.. Thanks for your imput on this.. it seems we have common ground after all..

mroop you GET it!!

perhaps because of our individual experiences we're both a bit sensitive.

Jazzmary, your post would have made perfect sense to me too if I would have understood your definition of white. I understand what you're trying to say, but you're not saying it right. Race exists, and I'm white. So what?

My roomate is black.. I'm not sure what knowing black people has to do with anything, but since you asked comp, I'll answer that ahead of time.

And I think comp's reaction a result of him being white and you saying he's part of a murderous culture of separation of power (I can't believe you're calling white people this and getting away with it, but whatever). Maybe what you meant to call them is "white facists." How about that?

Race is not culture.

Ethnicity is a culture.

ethnicity is culture, rather.

"Again.. White is NOT a race.. got it?? WHITE is a MURDUROUS CULTURE OF SEPARATION AND DOMINANCE AND POWER."

and black is not a race either.. it is a culture of grudges based on color and "world owes me" separatism.

If you have dark skin, but do not behave as if you belong to a people separate from the rest of america, then you are not included in my above statement which is equally ignorant as the quote at the top of this post.

BTW.. I am a Jew.. i guess this makes me a money hungry powermonger. (lol)

All i say is.. every faction which currently exists has had its share of enslavement, persecution, etc. The christians didnt learn from being fed to the lions, african americans didnt learn from segregation, and jews (particularly fundamentalist zionists) did not learn from the continuous war and terrorism in an area they could easily move on from.

the overall point:

REVERSE RACISM IS NO BETTER THAN NORMAL RACISM... period.

How can you honestly dialog without knowing the true definitions.. This is a hard subject to discuss because.. looks like I AM the only african-american here.. awehr.. I agree that every culture has it's good points and bad.. true.. and I said in my last post that I don't consider myself black, either..I was pointing to the unsaid reasons why people would vote against their economic interests, and support a candidate who they think will "protect" them without any more work or thought on their part. I am trying to elicit some kind of honest look at something that scares people.. and there is no basis for it.
Sherminator, the fact that you think that you can tell me how to express my points, "You're not saying it right," indicates an automatic assumption that you can express my words for me better.. turn that around and if I did that to you, would you start flaming? Be Honest, now. I never said race did no exist, per se, but it is in the wrong construct. Human beings cannot be divided by the mere color of their skin.. it is a cultural divide.
White, Black, Yellow, etc are Cultural entities, with the outside coverings of human beings as the easy identifier. awehr.. racism is racism, true.. what is this reverse business.. please explain.

Well said.

"If you have dark skin, but do not behave as if you belong to a people separate from the rest of america, then you are not included in my above statement..."

Kind of the point I tried to make earlier. Maybe those people that are included in the statement should be given a name other than "white" unless she actually thinks it applies to all whites.

"Sherminator, the fact that you think that you can tell me how to express my points, "You're not saying it right," indicates..."

I didn't say you didn't say it right. I suggested that you didn't say it right. Consider it a plea for clarification.

Ok...please define your use of "white" while keeping in mind that white is a race.

Walter Mosley, in his book, Workin' On The Chain Gang, says "What black people have experienced as a group for centuries many whites now experience as solitary and alienated individuals. In their various groups white Americans might feel that they belong, that there is a group spirit that looks out for them. But individually they suffer the barbs of bureaucratic indifference and the vicissitudes of corporate whims like everyone else. At the group level a white man might identifiy with the white, male, Christian president. But that identifications means very little on the unemployment line or when the HMO refuses to supply possibly life-saving technology.

by the way.. I do not consider the posters here in a "racial" way.. I do not know the color of your skin.. by your definitions.. I only know you by the thoughts you express.. And, to me, that is a much better way to know a person. So next time you look into the mirror, look past the skin-level, which is a requirement to get beyond the constructs of this current culture.. and know that common ground can exist between this vast array of diverse human beings. So, sherminator, what do you think of the urban rappers, then.. they certainly exhibit a different culture.. bet that you have an opinion on that.. but go deeper and ask yourself on what is that opinion based? Just the color of skin? or the cultral assumptions that arise from looking just skin deep?

I agree with you. But from the article it just sounded like you were saying there is no race and that whites are a murderous culture etc.

I do have an opinion on urban rappers. In general, their music sucks and they dress like they're begging people to not take them seriously. It isn't about race though. Black & white Kids in the suburbs mimick the way they dress & act and look equally dumb. And I base those opinions on the values I have that are a result of the culture I grew up in. For example, if you want to be respected, look respectable.

I agree with what you're saying here. I just don't totally understand what you said in what you said in the article.

I'm currently a light brown I guess...owing to my Native American genes...maybe some red, but I fade a bit in winter....

As George Carlin says,...Colin Powell "happens to be black"...but for all intents and purposes...he and Condi are "house n*****s"/ Steppenfetchits for Bush.

I was just thinking of the Demo catch phrase that is going out of style..
"Help is on the Way"...when you hear that...do you ask "What color is that help"?

As white is not a race, neither is black a race.

But, I just think we all need to get beyond trying to put everyone into a class or group and see each other as people....maybe someday that "all men are created equal" will ring with more sincerity once all men are TREATED equally.

But, I just think we all need to get beyond trying to put everyone into a class or group and see each other as people....

I couldn't agree more. I was once almost fired as a supervisor because a native american employee didn't like a decision I made and blurted out that I did it because of the color of his skin. I lost all respect for him.

BTW just curious, I wonder how Colin Powell (who grew up poor in New York) and Condiliza Rice feel about being called a token just because they've achieved something great in their lives. Not all African Americans who aspire to develop their skills in our culture are tokens or sell outs. Powell I know works with underprivliged African American youths to give them hope to aspire for better things in their lives.

Just because you shouldn't try to put people in a group doesn't mean that people don't belong to groups.

Judging me because I'm white is a bad thing. But admitting that I belong to a group called "white race of people" isn't a bad thing. It's a fact. Why does it seem like some people are trying to deny it?

"I wonder how Colin Powell (who grew up poor in New York) and Condiliza Rice feel about being called a token..."
How about "used"? They added credibility to this Republican administration. They spoke to the U.N., and the press and the Senate, repeating the false information that was given to them. Now their credibility has been tarnished.

Sadly, sometimes these labels are necessary. Suppose I see a "white" man snatch someone's purse, how do I describe him if not "white" or "Caucasian?"
And compmore, I don't care what color, gender, heritage, religion, or politics Condi professes--she's a flat-out liar, and whether she's fronting for Bush or doing it all on her own, I don't care. She is not to be trusted. And THAT is a label she deserves.

shadowmom that's fine and ok as long as it's not a result of her ethnic background. I don't agree but that the difference of our opinions.

If Colin Powell felt used he would say so. he's a smart man, not a puppet. He honestly believed the information given to him, as did Kerry, and most democrats and the president. Powell was doing his job and when he found out the information was wrong he admitted that. he still believed in what he was doing.

Time will tell, comp.

"He honestly believed the information given to him"

Where do you get this crap from? Powell was the guy fighting against going to the UN and spewing that bullshit. In the end he decided to follow orders like a good military man. Anyone who has read anything about this situation knows it. If Bush wins Powell will not be coming back.

"U.S. News and World Report revealed that during a Feb. 1 rehearsal of his U.N. speech urging war, a frustrated Powell threw his script in the air and said "I'm not reading this. This is bull----."

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Among_the_deceivers_060503.htm

Damn compmore with the misinformation again!

You know the saddest thing...after the last four years in the Sunshine State, I think she's right. There's too much systematic prejudice going on in this state. And it gets attention from the press, but not the hue and cry it should be getting when you consider how widespread it appears to be.

Thanks, mroop. I know compmore's heart is in the right place, he just needs some encouragement. That was a very encouraging post...

His heart may be in the right place, but he did say that Powell honestly believed the information given to him with no support to back that up. It's simply not true.

It's well known that Powell was the dissenter all along and as a result he was cut out of the loop. Bush used Powell's reputation to further his own sick goals and in the end it is Powell's reputation that has suffered for it.

Compmore may not know it, but he is parroting the Bush propaganda.

Message to compmore - Do some reading on the Office Of Special Plans. The intelligence was cooked to justify the war. It was intentional deception, not an honest mistake.

Where do you get this crap from?

I get it from Powell. he said it in an interview. yes he did fight against it but you know as well as I do any team player gives their imput then backs the final decision by the leader. if they disagree strongly enough, they resign.

I do read mroop. perhaps you should read a little bit about civility. the only reason I've been so strongly opininated these past few weeks is because I'm getting so tired of hearing how terrible everything is. I'm sick of the slanderous, loopsided hateful and personal attacks on everything republician then seeing website links constantly displayed as if that's all thats needed to justify the hatemongering dripping and ozzing off these threads. The conservitive blogs do the same thing to the dems and Kerry and they have all the same kind of Links that "prove" their views.
I'm saying what I believe. I'm sick to death of hearing people here accuse others of being puppets, parrorting, liars, spineless etc just because someone disagrees. You guys have already made up your minds a long time ago. There's no objectiveity here. You people just see stories then hold it up to justify your anomosity. I'm an independent. I agree with so much of what you guys say. But as long as you continue to spourt hateful venum disguised as an objective view of selected facts I will be there. and don't ask for my facts, I will not waste my time supplying them only to have them knocked down. The only respect you have is for those who agree with you.

OK I'll play the game once.

I know this'll get wraped but here are two interviews with powell that showed (at least publicly) he believed they existed and still defended the invasion after doubt was brought about. I know there will be links presented that shows a different story.

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2004&m=February&x=20040203172510ESnamfuaK0.6736109&t=usinfo/wf-latest.html

http://www.command-post.org/archives/007447.html

I don't care if you're an independent or not. You are sadly underinformed.

"I'm getting so tired of hearing how terrible everything is."

Me too. Let's talk about how great everything is. Freedom is coming! I read that on a blog so it must be true.

Ok.. compmore.. give me your absolute working definition of "race" that we all can use to further discussion.

Well, at least you are coming full circle to discuss politics again, which was one of the primary points of my first post. Tell me how we are going to mend and live together after this election. And tell me how spirited discussion is non-respectful.. I am only disrespectful if I am lied to.. and a lot of non-thinking Bushites have lost my respect. Me telling you what your actions mean to me is not disrespectful, it is instructional in nature, so you can know the true impact of what you are saying to people to further your cause or train of thought.

A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics

oh my god, even the dictionary calls it a "group" of people. This plague is everywhere!

(not a thing to do with culture)

"I know this'll get wraped but here are two interviews with powell that showed (at least publicly)"

I know what Powell has said publicly. I just said above that Powell is being a good soldier. He has also denied that he will step down if Bush wins the election. But everyone is reporting otherwise.

"Secretary of State Colin Powell has been a good soldier in public, even as he has had to fight for every small victory against Administration hawks like Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. But he has privately grown more frustrated, and now, sources close to Powell tell Time, he has a firm plan for his exit: he will step down at the end of President Bush’s current term."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,346150,00.html

How about the middle ground, guys.. let's start with the untenable situation that we are in and work to make it better. It's begins with an informed vote. But the Bush crew is actively couching the issues in fear, and I assert, again, that they are not above massaging the "racial" fears of people to gain power.. and, to me, it is a lowbrow approach that leaves scars that will be very slow to heal. And our awareness of how these "racial" codes interact will help to sort out the answers to combat this tatic.. example.. the Dred Scott reference in the debate.. explain to me how that is a code-word tatic.

group ain't race. So physical characteristics are enough?

I look at people from the heart, not from nationality. I won't play word games. I don't care what meaning the word Race comes from. personally I agree with most of what you said in your story. I responded to the remarks about whites. I'm not sure what you ment by that and was a bit offended by what it implied on the surface.

If we want a meaningful discussion the name calling, accusations, and fingerpointing must stop. I'm not going to argue details or semantics. I'm not voting for Bush or Kerry. I'm leaning Nader but am looking at Libritarian.

Spirited discussions are not a problem. discussions where terms like "King George the Cowardly" "F$@# Bush" "parroting the Bush propaganda." "Liar" and insinuating that any one candadate (usually Bush) Intentionally mislead, murdered, has no heart, compassion or brains is not spirited. It's nasty sleezy and is exactly the reason mainstream americans are sick of politics and voting.

I don't care if I convice people of my political cause. the only thing I'm trying to pursuade people here is to be civil and stop this stupidity. If I didn't believe in this site, it's cause and the people here I would've given up a long time ago and left for other sites. I learned so much from everyone here. But the minute nastiness starts I get defensive. I can go on and have no anomosity toward anyone here. even Mroop when he's not slanderous and sarcastic, he has so many great ideas and insights. But I'm realisic enough to know that many people here will not be able to do the same when it comes to me.

I agree, I hate being lied to as well. that's one of the worst things someone can do. but I have to be convinced that Bush INTENTIONALLY lied. he had access to the same information Kerry did. Maybe he's not upfront about the faulty intellegence but in my heart he believed it at the time. no amount of name calling will change my mind.

.. and mroop, where has Condeleeza been lately.. seems after the 911 "testimony," she has been very quiet this election year..

Well, since Compmore has accused me of not being objective, I will say that Kerry is also stoking fear for votes by saying that Bush plans to cut Social Security by 30-45 percent when he has no info to back up the claim.

But regarding Bush and race - when Bush was running for the nomination against McCain it looked like he might lose in South Carolina. So Karl Rove started a whispering campaign that McCain had a black baby. He also used what are known as "push polls", which is when you call on the phone and say, "How would you feel about John McCain if you knew had an illegitimate black baby?"

Just do a google search on Karl Rove and black baby and you'll find plenty of info.

The Dred Scott reference was a code word to anti-abortionists telling them that he would support them. I knew something was up when I heard that during the debate. I was thinking, "Why the hell is he talking about Dred Scott?" I found out the next day.

"Why Bush Opposes Dred Scott
It's code for Roe v. Wade."

http://slate.msn.com/id/2108083/

I read that and I found it disgusting. I wish McCain would've cleaned Bushes clock.

compmore, I would agree that the frivilous name-calling is not good. But you must understand the nuances between "King George the Cowardly" and "parroting the Bush Propaganda." If you lump these two into the same catagory, you are missing the point. One is baseless name-calling, which is bad. The other, if accompanied by substantiating proof, is an observation. Big difference.

But that's the same thing people get mad at for all the time. I call people names and am always completely justified. Just like you!

".. and mroop, where has Condeleeza been lately.. seems after the 911 "testimony," she has been very quiet this election year.. "

I haven't heard much from her lately except for when she tried to defend her mushroom cloud statement a little while ago. I guess they trot her out when they need her. They've also kept Rumsfeld out of the spotlight now that the war is going so badly.

Some classic Rumsfeld lines on the looting of Iraq:

"It's untidy, and freedom's untidy. Free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things."

"The images you are seeing on television, you are seeing over and over and over. It's the same picture of some person walking out of some building with a vase and you see it twenty times. And you think, my goodness, were there that many vases? Is it possible that there were that many vases in the whole country?"

If more folks were honest and aware of the impact of "race" in the election process, and the using of it in dirty politics, these tatics would not be nearly as successful, right. But they do work, and they play on people who do not want to think for themselves. You can identify them pretty well by their distilling everything down to black and white (not race, but shades of nuance.)

sorry the facts does support that things aren't always what Bush says (I can find just as many facts showing Kerry's inconsistancies) but doesn't support the childish conclusions of King George the cowardly and other remarks of that nature. those type of conclusion would never be allowed in an actual debate.

agreed jazzmary. the general populance is swayed by emotional pandering. Individually people are smart. as a group people are stupid. (I include everyone including me in there) Unless we are vigilant

Yeah, mroop, I discovered the true codeword for Dred Scott as well.. and I recall that all Bush could come up with during the debate is that it had something to do with the constitution (he didn't know what, however) And in the back of many minds the name Dredd Scott is a fuzzy lesson from High School history that had something to do with the civil war and that means that it had something to do with black people and that must mean that it is bad and I don't want anything more to do with a a judge who would bring up all this black stuff, or anything like taking away more of my rights.... do you see the spin of thought that I am demonsrating here?

thank you all for a lively discussion. I gotta sleep now.. end of a twelve-hour day. I am surprised that I am not more cranky than this. Goodnight, dmusicites!

"he had access to the same information Kerry did."

Well, I hate to tell you that you are parroting Bush propaganda again. Bush did not have the same information that Kerry did. He had a special unit in the Pentagon that was created for the purpose of cherrypicking intelligence to justify an invasion. As I said above, do a google search on "Office Of Special Plans" and start reading.

Why do you think the CIA is leaking documents all over the place in the past couple months in order to destroy Bush? The Wall Street Journal recently wrote an editorial and called the CIA's attacks a "second insurgency" because they are out to get Bush.

The reason the CIA is out to get Bush is because he used OSP intelligence to justify the war and did an end around on the CIA. Now that the war is going badly he is trying to blame the CIA for faulty intelligence! In return, the CIA is trying to sink Bush. This is unprecedented.

"do you see the spin of thought that I am demonsrating here?"

Yes I do. And now I am also going to sleep.

Here's a start on the Office Of Special Plans:

"Air Force Lt. Colonel Karen Kwiatkowski, who worked in the Pentagon until her retirement, was with the Office of Special Plans: 'What I saw was aberrant, pervasive and contrary to good order and discipline,' Kwiatkowski wrote recently. 'If one is seeking the answers to why peculiar bits of 'intelligence' found sanctity in a presidential speech, or why the post-Saddam occupation has been distinguished by confusion and false steps, one need look no further than the process inside the Office of the Secretary of Defense.' She described the activities of Rumsfeld's Office of Special Plans as, 'A subversion of constitutional limits on executive power and a co-optation through deceit of a large segment of the Congress.'"

"On March 9, 2004, Los Angeles Times' staff reporter Greg Miller writes that during testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee, George J. Tenet, Director of the CIA, revealed that "A special intelligence unit at the Pentagon provided private prewar briefings to senior White House officials on alleged ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda without the knowledge of [the] CIA Director ... [and the] disclosure suggests that a controversial Pentagon office played a greater role than previously understood in shaping the administration's views on Iraq's alleged ties to the terrorist network behind the Sept. 11 attacks, and that it bypassed usual channels to make a case that conflicted with the conclusions of CIA analysts." [5]

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Office_of_Special_Plans

More here:

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=office+of+special+plans&num=100&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&safe=images

saying what I believe from information that I have seen isn't parroting, sorry. just because I haven't read everything you did..... but you do have a point. I know the CIA is pissed at him.

try being more civil and I'll be more responsive.

Well, I guess you see parroting as offensive and I don't see it that way. I will say the Bush propaganda team has been extraordinarily successful at making their viewpoints seem to be the status quo of information. For example, something like 40 or 50 percent of Americans actually believe that Saddam was involved in 9/11. This proves the success of the Bush propaganda.

agreed. now I do see your point. ok I can and do accept that

(Extend a hand) lets work together. You do have a lot to offer.

I can't promise I won't say something rude and offensive. I like a rough and tumble debate with vicious invective. In case you haven't noticed. : )

If you have 20-30 minutes to spare at any point I highly recommend this article for the real neocon agenda in Iraq and how it went so horribly awry. It will blow your mind.

Baghdad Year Zero

Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia

http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html

so it is a concious effort. well if it happens I'll drop from the thread.

This has got to be one of the most energetic topic boards I have ever been on! I wish I had found y'all sooner! Anyway, I'm going to start from the top down. There is a lot of ground to cover, and some extras that I would like to throw in on my own, if you don't mind.

>Lachatte

Fear is a strong emotion. Fear can be used to control.<

Hit the nail on the head, my man!!! No force on Earth is more potent than fear, with the possible exception of hate. More atrocities have come out of fear and hate based on ignorance than I care to think about, this past term being one of them. I mean, color-coded fear days?

>Jazzmary2U

First.. do you KNOW any black folks? Live in your neighborhood, maybe dialog with more than the tokens at work?<

Well, that's interesting. Hampton Roads is predominately a black city, with very little white influence, with the rare exception being in it's officials. And I've got to say I am nonplussed with what I see around here. Mind, I have met a lot of good black people here, people I am proud to know and to call friend. But, for the most part, the place is a hellhole. It's run down, with overinflated rent prices for the region ($1000/mo for 650 sq. ft, plus all utilities, which are monopolized so that they set exorbitant prices) and very little in the way of public works. I mean, they have been working on an overpass for the last decade!! There is a lot of crime, a lot of murders, a lot of drug dealers, and very few honest jobs. I know, the economy is in a slump, but when McDonalds turns you down, that's saying a lot.

>compmore

Just because I don't hold with the far leftist bleeding heart everyones a victim of the white opressors doesn't make me a racist.<

True. That makes you reasonable. This is a topic that cannot be painted in black or white (no pun intended). The lines of distinction are very fuzzy here. I think race is no longer about the color of one's skin, but the attitude that a person reflects. It just so happens that a lot of the time, a certain attitude is represented in a group that happnes to have the same ethnic origin, although it is becoming less and less so.

>gdZiemann

Have you seen the Chris Rock riff on the difference between being rich and being wealthy?<

Well, this is a bit off topic here, but I have two very distinct definitions for rich and wealthy. And no, I haven't seen the Chris Rock bit, but I'll have to look it up now. I love Chris Rock.
Rich: Having a lot of money.
Wealthy: Being able to live at your current or ideal standard of living without working, and being able to sustain that standard of living indefinately thourhg passive income.


>Jazzmary2U

The very first sign of not understanding is fervent denial.. and it ALWAYS begins with the statement... "I am not a... "<

That has to be the biggest, stupidest blanket statement I have ver heard! "I am not a terrorist!" Oops, maybe I am then... No, not understanding is ignorance. Understanding but not caring is stupidity. I am not a is simply a person stating his/her belief at the time. You are basially saying that anybody who denies to themselves or to others that they aren't something, ANYTHING, is in ignorant denial. That just is not so.

>compmore

Respect works both ways. you've gotta give it to get it.<

BRAVO! It's something that my generation has somehow forgotten, and is rubbing off on the older generation at that.

>Jazzmary2U

..where is it that I call you anything, compmore?? It is your REACTION that I am addressing.<

I am losing more respect for you, dear madam. A reaction is still an action, and in this case, it reflects this person's opinions and personal beliefs. Basing a response on an attack of another response is the same as an attack of that person's very character. Thus, you are calling him a racist.

>Jazzmary2U

"What black people have experienced as a group for centuries many whites now experience as solitary and alienated individuals. In their various groups white Americans might feel that they belong, that there is a group spirit that looks out for them. But individually they suffer the barbs of bureaucratic indifference and the vicissitudes of corporate whims like everyone else. At the group level a white man might identifiy with the white, male, Christian president. But that identifications means very little on the unemployment line or when the HMO refuses to supply possibly life-saving technology.<

So, if we are white we are evil, even though whites are just as suspect to the same injustices that others are? Um, that is a contradiction on your opinion if ever I saw one. It also brings up my previous point: it's not about race anymore, it's a bout attitude. Those people are greedy, plain and simple. People may go into a venture to help others, but businesses are ALWAYS out to make money. That's the point of a business after all. I have plans for an upcoming real estate business. I hope to help people get decent homes and living , but I'm not going to do it at a loss either. I'm humanitarian, but I am also lazy, and therefore want to help people out while ensureing that I don't have to work anymore.

>Jazzmary2U

what do you think of the urban rappers, then.. they certainly exhibit a different culture..<

It's a deplorable culture at that! I hate the stuff, but as any good strategist knows, the best way to defend something is to know thine own enemy. It's a culture that promotes the glamorization of murder and drug dealing, the iconization of women as "bitches and hoes" and as more property than real people, the galmorization of indescrete and unsafe sex, of taking what you want regardless of who you hurt, and the propagation and continuation of such a system. Why, do you support that culture?

>Codewarrior

"Help is on the Way"...when you hear that...do you ask "What color is that help"?<

Cut to the core. In the military, we had a similar situation. If there was a fire on your ship, and you broke your leg and coulden't get out of your space on your own, and you saw a hand reach down to lift you up to safety, are you going to give a damn if that hand isn't the same color as yours?

>compmore

BTW just curious, I wonder how Colin Powell (who grew up poor in New York) and Condiliza Rice feel about being called a token just because they've achieved something great in their lives. Not all African Americans who aspire to develop their skills in our culture are tokens or sell outs.<

Compmore, we agree on something here, and as I read more of your posts, the more I start to like you. This little bit was in response to Jazzmary2U, and I have to say that in this light, it seems like Jazzmary2U is exhibiting some of the symptoms of righteous indignation and self-destructive opinions of her, for lack of better term people, and revels in the 'woe is me, pity us' attitude.


>ShadowMom

...I don't care what color, gender, heritage, religion, or politics Condi professes--she's a flat-out liar, and whether she's fronting for Bush or doing it all on her own, I don't care. She is not to be trusted. And THAT is a label she deserves.<

Too true! If Condi was white, would it have made any difference? She still would have been a liar. that was her choice, and the public's opinion of her is based on her actions, not her race. Thanks Shadowmom.

>mroop

In the end he decided to follow orders like a good military man....<

That's exactly what he did, and rightly so for what his background is. He saw, with a deeply ingrained belief from all the way back from boot camp, that contardicting a superior officer was the worst thing a person could do, and in this case, it would have ben treason in his mind.

>mroop

"U.S. News and World Report revealed that during a Feb. 1 rehearsal of his U.N. speech urging war, a frustrated Powell threw his script in the air and said "I'm not reading this. This is bull----."<

I did not know that. That is also the response I would expect out of a good military man; you can have your own opinions, just not in public.

>compmore

yes he did fight against it but you know as well as I do any team player gives their imput then backs the final decision by the leader. if they disagree strongly enough, they resign.<

You have not served in the military, have you? This recent mutiny must have shown you that this is not always true when it comes that that very different culture. You can't just quit the military. That's called desertion, and during time of war, it's punishable by death. Colin once again did what a military man would do: he did not show a divided front to the enemy. To do so would confuse the soldiers and sub-commanders, and lessen the total strength of the military. He made a good decision ot stick with it until the end of the war. He looked out for the best interest of the conflict, regardless of his opinions on it.

>mroop

But he has privately grown more frustrated, and now, sources close to Powell tell Time, he has a firm plan for his exit: he will step down at the end of President Bush’s current term."<

Exactly what I said. Or vice versa, something like that. You said ti first mroop, is what I'm getting at. Now that his opinion is the same as that of the general populace and that of his troops, he is diong what he planned on from the start of this insane war, and leaving it all behind. Good for him.

>Jazzmary2U

group ain't race. So physical characteristics are enough?<

Group IS race. Why are you so adamantely against that? Is Eminem white or black? His ethnic origin is caucasian, but he does not hold the same opinions of those you call 'white'. What is he then? What of the caucasian kids who dress like Dre and Ghostface and Nas? What are they? WHEN WILL YOU BE HAPPY?

>compmore

...and insinuating that any one candadate (usually Bush) Intentionally mislead, murdered, has no heart, compassion or brains is not spirited. It's nasty sleezy and is exactly the reason mainstream americans are sick of politics and voting.<

Aye, but here's the rub: what if it's all true?

>compmore

...but I have to be convinced that Bush INTENTIONALLY lied. he had access to the same information Kerry did.

Coming from a background of politics AND from a family history of involvement in the Intelligence community, I can say that your statement is not true. There is a lot of information that the President is privy to that nobody else is, including certain heads of agencies or bureaus. There has always been a lot of infighting between the different intelligence branches, and nobody eveer wants to share an informant, or mole, or lead. No wonder nothing ever comes out right!


>Jazzmary2U

One is baseless name-calling, which is bad. The other, if accompanied by substantiating proof, is an observation. Big difference.<

Ah, too true! The elections always bring out the worst in people, and everybody is always up in arms in defending how they say what they say, and if you don't agree, you're just being a butthead. We should all be so open-minded; maybe then we could get a good President for a change *and that was not just an attack on Bush alone*.

>compmore

Individually people are smart. as a group people are stupid.<

I don't know about all that. Individually, a lot of people are pretty stupid too. It's just that all the stupid people tend to stick together and create one big stupid overmind.

>mroop

The reason the CIA is out to get Bush is because he used OSP intelligence to justify the war and did an end around on the CIA. Now that the war is going badly he is trying to blame the CIA for faulty intelligence! In return, the CIA is trying to sink Bush. This is unprecedented.<


See? INfighting at it's best! Although it's not really unprecedented. What's so amazing is that it's so public! The government as a whole stopped listening to the CIA back in the late 70's when they told Rreagan and his Cabinet that the Soviets weren't a threat anymore, and that the new threats were coming out of the Mid-East and the fanatic Muslim block. Hmm...............

>mroop

She described the activities of Rumsfeld's Office of Special Plans as, 'A subversion of constitutional limits on executive power and a co-optation through deceit of a large segment of the Congress.'"<

In other words, lying. 1984 anybody? The best way for anybody to swallow a story is to make it with one part truth and two parts lie. That way, you can prove the first part, and get everybody else to swallow the other two parts as stuff that you know because you have access to better information than they do. Machievelli would be proud.

Well now, that was interesting, wasn't it? Since we've all decided to be so honest, why not ask a hard question: do you (meaning everybody individually) think we should still be in Iraq, or should we have left a long time ago, and why do you hold that opinion? Just to see what everybody thinks.

BTW, does anybody know of a good general political forum? I've been dying for one.

wow dude that did blow my mind!!!!! that is some fucked up shit...

He made a good decision ot stick with it until the end of the war. He looked out for the best interest of the conflict, regardless of his opinions on it.

that is exactly what I was trying to say. BTW I was in the military.

My statement about Powell was about being Sec of State. he gave his imput in meetings, disagreed (sometimes strongly) then when the President made his decision, Powell stood behind it.

yes sometimes people are stupid individually. I was making a generalization. which is still true.

Aye, but here's the rub: what if it's all true?

doesn't matter, the general public is still turned off by it. if we want to get people involved in voting we've gotta make it worth their while and an honest debate, not a street braw. I'm still not conviced it was deliberate on his part.

Thank you, nuke, for your thorough commentary.. you are, of course, entitled to your opinions.. I am just trying to bring to the fore the underlying "racial" tatics of this political season.. and they are many and strong. Again, I refer you to the post earlier go to Kimberlys commentary and examine some of what "minorities" deal with in this country. Multiple people have expressed discust at the rap/hip-hop artists.. I brought that up for examination of the complexities of a culture, how the artists expose all kinds of assumptions and predjuices that naturally are an outcropping of the cultures of race in the USA in particular. The whole movement began as a political statement against the day-to-day racism that the artists encounter. I do not like some of the mysogyny, and racism on their part as well, but you cannot dismiss out-of-hand, and entire artform because you think you have the right to assign cultural values that you were raised with and support. Can you, at least, admit that the color of skin in this country influences your perceptions? That is a cultural construct, in addition to a biological activity. Physical characterists, what you call "race" is one tenent of a larger cultural grid.. for example.. one mentioned Eminim.. now, to place Eminim into a category.. you had to integrate CULTURAL standards.. caucasion ethnicity.. that is cultural.. why, because if you never saw Eminim, you would not be able to make that judgement.. is he black or white.. then you explain that answer using not BIOLOGICAL perameters, but artistic, societal, or CULTURAL perameters, that is why I make the initial assertion. Once your eyeballs see a person, the perceptions then take over..and the cultural grid gets immediately applies. CULTURE. Again, race is a social structure invented by those with the power to name them.. hence the term, "minorities," even though the ones who constructed the terms are actually, numerically fewer than the "minorities." Another term bandied about frequently, is "white and non-white," which is also a cultural judgement.. Can you understand where I am coming from?? I will post references, if you would bother to check them out, but it would involve study, for this is a complex cultural issue, as your example of Eminim illustrates.

mroop.. thanks for the links!!

Well Jazzmary2U, while it is true that perception based on the color of one's skin is a deeply seated psycological trigger (there have been studies on just that, and they are very interesting), the color of one's skin is meaning less and less each day, on the individual level. As a group, yes, it is sometimes more convinient for politicians to group certain ethnic demographics together, but a majority of America knows that the simple lumping just doesn't cut it nowadays. Have a little more faith in your fellow Americans; after all, you said it right when you said that we were all stuck in this together.

Jazzy Mary, you