This entire piece courtesy of a writer DemFromCT on the Daily Koz.
Tomorrow's Sunday NY Times has an unforgettable and rather chilling personality piece on one George W. Bush, written by Ron Suskind (author of  "The Price of Loyalty"). If you wish, you can think of it as a companion piece to Matt Bai's John Kerry article last weekend. But the two stories are as different as the candidates themselves. Only one is the Faith-Based President.

It's quite a piece, and also quite long. Start with this:

You think Bush has little respect for science and rational thought?  Put yourself in the shoes of a reporter as it dawns on you that the logical, rational way of approaching the world just got thrown out the window:

And what re the consequences (for us) of disagreement?

The truth: Bush truly believes he's on a mission to use the powerful name of God in helping him sustain his support from "the big, wide middle America"!

Regarding the observation that Dubya's political base doesn't like the entire reality-based community...there's an element of truth to that, uh-huh.
Onward through the fog! Onward, ye bull, right on through the china shop, with a yee-hah for good measure.
Onward, Christian soldiers, destined for more slaughter.

Would I deny being cynical?
Nope.

Regarding those who empower Bush by voting for him:
I have to admire the strength of their misplaced loyalty, and the RNC really knows how to push all the right buttons with those ribbons:
Support the troops.
Pray for the troops.
Etc.
We can see through that, because it also strongly implies:
Support your War President.
Pray for him.
Etc.

(It's pathetic.)

Kind of makes you want to run down the street screaming like a monkey.

.. as I was flipping through TV Channels I saw one of these "evangelist preachers" using heavily-coded language to encourage their "flock" to vote, and to base their vote strictly on the bible that he was fevervently shaking at the TV audience.. so, I think that reading things like lengthly articles in the NY Times, at this point, won't be a priority for these "faith-based" folk.. so I say forgetaboutit.. demographically, thinking and caring Americans are in the great majority.. it is the mobilization of THESE folks that is important now.

VOTE. VOTE. VOTE. VOTE.. That means take four registered friends to the polls with you.

Bush has tried to introduce new terms into the American language and make them as if they ARE standard American terms. Terms like "homeland", "faith based programs", but one he keeps using over and over is "Culture of Life".

I started hunting this down.
"Culture of Life" is a webpage on www.christianity.com .
Christianity.com is registered to "Renewal Enterprises, LLC" of Alexandria Virginia. If you want, you can get more info on this through googling it.

CULTURE OF LIFE, is also found in a sentence from this website.
http://www.nccbuscc.org/prolife/issues/abortion/culture.htm
"Building a culture of life in our society will also require efforts reaching beyond legal reform."

I believe Bush is only using his perceived fundamentalist beliefs as a means of power gathering from right wing fundamentalist groups and others who consider themselves Christians...
read my thoughts on my blogs....

BUSH'S JIHAD ("Armies of Compassion")
http://codewarriorz.blogspot.com

http://codewarriorz.blogdrive.com/

http://codewarrior.blog-city.com

http://codewarriorz.tblog.com/

http://22blog.com/CodeWarrior/

http://codewarrior.tblog.com/

I do not admire misplaced loyalty. Plenty of Nazis had that, and look what happened to millions of Jews for that type of thing!

Bush has perfected the art or denial to the point where he is able to ignore problems to such an extent that they cease to be problems, at least for a few years.

.. worse that that, Code and goldenpi.. there is an emergence of "codewords" (not by our own CodeWarrior) such as... Dred Scott Decision, life starts at conception, to criticize the government is unpatriotic.. etc. that is NOT intended for discussion by ALL AMERICANS!! Such divisive tactics in the political discoure is clearly divisive.. and discusting.. and dangerous!!

VOTE!

.. discourse sorry.

Actually, this is an interesting contest...
Bush represents emotions and instinct
Kerry is more intellectual and reasoned

In terms of Freudian psychology, Bush represents the ID
and Kerry is the EGO or "SuperEgo"

In terms of brain development, Bush is the archeocortex...
he is the reptilian brain...
Kerry is the neo-cortex...the thinking brain....

I'm looking forward to voting for Bush. I know where he stands, as a Christian, and I like his stand.

Funny thing is Code, there are standard terms in America, written by our forefathers. And they are filled with references of God, from the bible. Check out the halls of the supreme court and you'll know what I mean. Our country is trying so hard ot move away from that and people like Kerry are the reason. GWB is just trying to get us back to where we started.

Our forefathers were far from perfect but they knew enough to understand that success would come from God, not owr own efforts.

Comparing Bush to Nazi's is a cheap shot. Bush has a respect for life that Hitler (et al) did not have.

Dennis Miller recently said it well when he said 'I abhor war, but I love freedom. Given the choice of peace or freedom, I choose feedom everytime. Unfortunalely, freedom is not free and often comes at the price of peace".

hey TheTap,
Before you vote for Bush. watch Farenheight 911. I don;t like Micheal Moore either, BUT what Mr Moore has shown in this movie really made me think. I also have respect for life (eg. the Abortion issue) but for him to invade a country that clearly had NO WMD and does NOT and NEVEr had the means to produce them and to then make a public statement saying he was not worried of Bin Laden really bothered me.
I do not like his economic policies, I don't like the fact that he has overhauled the overtime rules to screw people like me who depend on it. I have friends who have lost jobs becuase many companies have moved overseas and he is trying to privatize social security & medicare, and further undermine the American people. We a a huge trillion dollar deficit becuase of him. Who is going to pay for IRAQ? He has given the top 1% huge taxe cuts.
I support anyone's right to have faith. But it's another thing to force his relgious beleifs onto me or those who do not agree with him. He talks about the Right To Life. Let me ask you something, do you have children? a daughter? what if (heaven forbid) she was raped? Do we have a right to force her to bring an unwanted offspring of an animal? The kind will come intot he world hated and knowing he's the seed of a bastard. Is that right? I mean don;t get me wrong, i beleive abortion is murder. But I've worked with criminals and i can tell you off the bat, these guys are not the kind of people you want anything to do with.
Sure there are references to God in the Supreme Court and within the Constitution. But there are NO preferences to one religion or faith or another. The Constitution also says "Seperation Of Church And State" in other words, keep religion out of politics.
I have faith too, but I don;t like nor want to force my beleifs onto somebody else. It is not right.
You also gotta remember that our country is very diverse with many beleifs and many groups of people. We should be moving forward, not going back. If Kerry gets elected, the first thing that will happen is that he will withdraw troops out of IRAQ. If Bush gets re-elected, I have a gut feeling the draft will be re-enstated. Comparing Bush to Hitler is a cheap shot. Hitler was a psychotic meglomaniac. Bush is an idiot.

The Nazis outlawed abortion. They wanted as many aryan babies as possible.

Spreading "freedom" does not mean starting senseless wars with unarmed countries.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6267559/
"Campaigning in an area heavily dependent on the military, Bush said, "We will not have an all-volunteer army" before correcting himself. "

Bush's Freudian slips are where his real intentions reveal themselves.

Anyone who thinks Bush is a Christian...read my article which I have posted to several of my blogs and websites...
"BUSH'S JIHAD" (Armies of Compassion)
http://freespeech.mvhosted.com
http://codewarrrioz.blogspot.com
http://codewarriorz.blogdrive.com
http://patriotic.mvhosted.com
http://codewarriorz.tblog.com
http://codewarrior.blog-city.com
http://codewarrior.tblog.com
http://health.mvhosted.com
and many many more!

"Bush has a respect for life "
That's why as governor of my state, he was responsible for the taking of so many convict's lives....and why over 1000 brave soldiers are dead now...because of Bush's respect for life...

just read the blog...

Tap, while I won't be voting either Bush or Kerry, between the two I would take Bush over Kerry any day. But a majority of the people here see things the other way. (I live in a safe state so it doesn't matter how I vote.)

I've actually had a discussion with someone at work over Christianity and the founding of the country. http://www.lawandliberty.org/founders.htm is a good read.

Kerry only uses his faith when it is convienent. I think Bush has been more consistant in matters of faith.

I wouldn't trust anything from the NY Times in regards to the election until Nov. 3.

keywords...Bohemian Grove Club, George W. Bush, Molech,
rituals...

Let's Go Googling!

I won't debate capital punishment, War, or Bush's faults. This is a music forum. We could argue those topics all day and when it's done I'll still be on this side, and you'll still be on that side.

And please don't think I am "head in the sand" pro Bush. I know he's made mistakes, but I believe he's trying to lead this country in the right way and I believe he is a Christian. The Christian part is very important to me. That may not be important to you and that's you're right as an American, but I won't come on here and ridicule you. Inspite of our political differences I have a great respect for you (Code).

My concern is that this is a music forum to unite people against the RIAA and their unlawful tactics. Bashing Christians and mocking those who suport Bush is counter-productive to the goal of this board. It creates splits and anamosity.

There are places to stand against Bush, this isn't one of them. If it makes some people feel unwelcome, then does it really belong here.

Tap

The Bush Administration/DOJ backed the RIAA in its suit trying to force Verizon to reveal the names of filesharers...so, yes.
http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Apr/gee20030421019668.htm
"Justice Department backs RIAA
The DOJ filed a brief in support of the RIAA's case against Verizon to reveal the identity of a subscriber.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
posted 9:55am EST Mon Apr 21 2003 - submitted by Brian Osborne
NEWS
The Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) received a strong ally on Friday in its case against Verizon to reveal the identity of an Internet subscriber. The subscriber is suspected by the RIAA of making available around 600 songs for download through the KaZaA file-sharing service. The RIAA issued a subpoena to Verizon to identify the name of subscriber under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act. The court upheld the subpoena in January, but the case was appealed by Verizon (see our previous coverage).

The U.S. Justice Department filed a brief in support of the RIAA's position on Friday. The Justice Department supports the position that the subpoena does not infringe on the First Amendment, a position taken by Verizon."

Thank you the Tap. I appeciate the kind comment, seriously.

I do occasionally rant too much...so, will let everyone else voice opinions on this...but, The Tap...please read my blog on Bush's Jihad with an open mind, considering the facts, that's all I ask.

Best wishes...now, will TRY to force myself to go clean the house and get off the computer

ROCK ON!

So do i Tap.

and BTW, Verizon won against the RIAA.

Thanks for the civility.

Now back to the barbaric sport of Football where my Eagles are whopping it up on Carolina.

Tap

Bush hasn't forced his religous beliefs on anyone. Tap is right. when christains say God speaks to them everyone automaticly ASSUMES the person is wacho, preachy etc. there's visions of angelic beins hovering and wispering in their ear. That's not how God usually speaks to christains (or anyone for that matter).

God speaks through the heart, our feelings and desires. Events around us and people that affect our lives. The Holy Spirt helps us understand Gods will in our lives through our own heart. That's not forcing a belief of anyone. I'm sorry so many find it offensive having to observe a Christain going through their lives. others may not believe that way and that's cool. but I admire anyone who speaks and acts from their convictions but not anyone who's convictions allows them to slander and ridicule others. Bush is Sincere, weither you vote for him or not. but I wouldn't except anyone who already has so much hate in their hearts to see that. Hatred has a strange way of seeing and disorting facts to support the hate. I've seen it so much here the past few weeks.

Could you email me Compmore?
Here is a very temporary account that will be deleted as soon as it has served it's purpose.

thetap001

Yahoo mail

If anyone wants more insight on Bush's little secret club (not Skull and Bones...the Bohemian Grove)...one which Poppy Bush belonged to as well...
if you dare...check out this page...
http://www.rotten.com/library/conspiracy/bohemian-grove/
(notice Bush' Sr.'s name at the bottom of the page...top name)

sounds like a frat party. so?

God spoke to Moses through a BURNING "BUSH"...Hmmmmm...Do Tell

a frat party worshipping that good Christian God MOLECH
http://www.ancientroute.com/religion/Godsname/molech.htm
"MOLECH
mo' lek



THE GOD

Molech was an ancient fire deity, of a common type worshipped throughout Canaan generally, and Phoenicia particularly. Under various names, depending upon the city or country, Molech is essentially identical with Chemosh of Moab, and probably Melqart of Tyre. The general name for this type of fire god used throughout Palestine was Baal, meaning ‘lord.’ Molech was the national deity of the country of Ammon, east of the Jordan, or the Ammonites. Molech was also worshipped by the Israelites on many occasions, much to the distress of the prophets.

According to Jewish tradition, the cult idol of Molech was made of brass, hollow, and with hands so positioned that something laid therein would fall to the fire below. The practice of laying a child across the hands, and thus committing them to the fire, was termed ‘pass through the fire to Molech.’ The priests of Molech, called Chemarim, were held in high esteem, much like priests were in other cults throughout the ancient world. The position of priest was held by men of high rank and noble birth, and they surely wielded much influence over their flock.

While there have been several attempts to associate Molech with the god of the Israelites, Yahweh, this is most improbable. Whenever the ancient texts speak of Molech, he is always termed as a foreign deity relative to the Israelites. The conclusion that they were two different deities is inescapable. That the Israelites occasionally became enamored with the cult of Molech is also inescapable. There are many passages in the Bible where the prophets do verbal battle against the influence of these foreign gods.

During the early days of the Israelite’s, when they were first taking possession of Palestine, the worship of various sun- or fire-gods was common throughout Canaan. Offerings were often made by fire [called holocaust by the Jews], and there were many similarities between deities from different neighboring countries. As time passed, these deities were assimilated into Israel, with various traditions retained, and others discontinued.

RITES

As mentioned before, Molech was a fire-god and many things were sacrificed to him by burning. Ancient sources mention food and drink, birds and animals, and of course, humans occasionally. However, the practice most spoken of was the sacrifice of young children to the fires of Molech. This practice was especially abhorred by the ancients, and not just the Jews. The Greeks and Romans also mention this inhuman rite in derogatory terms.

From the position of those who worshipped Molech, the sacrifice of one’s first born child, or any child, was the ultimate sacrifice. It was done only at times of extreme hardship, and not necessarily willingly. And the practice was not unusual to the deity of Molech. We see the sacrifice of children in other cults also; Chemosh of Moab, Melqart of Tyre, and Yahweh of the Israelites. However, what seemed to be so abhorred was the practice of sacrificial burning. While the Israelites occasionally slit the throat of their first-born, they never committed them to the flames of the holocaust. Early in the history of the Israelites, after seeing the rites of Molech, they passed laws among themselves that if any man made or permitted his children to "pass through the fire" he was to be put to death.

Diodorus gives an account of the rite, concerning the bronze statue of Molech. He mentions that the relatives caressed the infants to prevent them from crying. This would imply that they were sent through the flames while still alive. If this be true, then one can readily see why others would detest the practice.

THE TOPHETH

The sacred precinct of Molech is called the topheth in the Bible. The area is a graveyard of sorts, where the ashes of victims are placed in an urn. Examination of the remains of bones indicate that most of the victims are young children, although occasionally as much as twelve years old. There are also instances of adults. It is know that the immolation of an adult each year in the fall was a normal practice in the fire-god cults.

There are also many animals and birds represented as substitute, but apparently human victims under two predominate. They were the ones afforded special burial in the sacred precinct of the god Molech. Some of these graveyards run into the thousands of victims. Finally, the site would be indicated by a stele in many cases, and some were inscribed. This practice went on for a very long time; many centuries, judging from the size of the topheth.

The original appearance of the topeth is unknown, and the word is interpreted as ‘place of fire’ or ‘hearth.’ We know of several of these sanctuaries, some from the literature and a few from archeological work. The most famous would be that mentioned in the Bible, said to be in the valley of Hinnom, just outside of Jerusalem. The valley of Hinnom runs out into the Kidron valley in the south of Jerusalem. Hinnom became Gehenna to the Greeks, which is the Greek word for Hell. This is the sanctuary destroyed by Josiah.

Other topheth sanctuaries have been found at Nora, Motya, and several sites in north Africa. A topheth at Hadrumetum near Carthage in north Africa is very large, proving the practice went on for an extended time. This sanctuary lasted throughout the life of the Punic city. Urns, thousands of them, were buried under stone cairns, and contain the burned bones of young children. Many burials are marked with little stele, a few inscribed. This site lasted throughout the life of Carthage, remaining in use from c.812 till 145 BCE, when Carthage fell to the Romans.

Etymology
Hebrew Molech, king (mo' lek); The name Molech presents many problems to the interpreters of the original texts. The word means king, and there several variations, using the familiar terminations om and am. Hence, the word is also rendered as Milcom, or Malcam, and are then proper names. It is possible that Melqart is another such variation. In short, it is difficult to decide if Molech is a simple appellative meaning king, and therefore a variation of lord, or is in fact a proper name.

HISTORY

Solomon (King of Palestine, 973 – 933 BCE )
Solomon is well known for the building of the great Jewish Temple. But he apparently got carried away with his building projects, because in his old age he also built a temple for several other deities, notably Chemosh and Molech, in the valley of Hinnom. This he did to console several of is many wives, who were from these foreign countries. While it is occasionally said that Solomon introduced these cults to Israel, in reality, he simply gave an existing cult an official stamp. The cults had existed in the land of Canaan for many centuries before the Israelites came to Palestine.

Ahaz (King of Judah, 736 - 720 BCE)
After the disruption, the worship of the fire-gods became common in both Israel and Judah. Israel drifted the farthest from the Jewish Yahweh, but Judah also strayed often. Ahaz was the first king of Judah to sacrifice children to Molech, at the altar in the Valley of Hinnom. With the example set by royalty, the cult of Molech became the bane of Judah.

Manasseh (King of Judah, 693 - 639 BCE)
The king Manasseh has the distinction of being the first king to cause his own son to ‘pass through the fire to Molech’ and was forever condemned by the prophets. He was later carried to Assyria, and when he returned, he was reformed. He condemned the foreign deities, and worshipped only Yahweh. This, however, gave little comfort to the son who was previously sacrificed… Meanwhile, the northern tribes in Israel were also performing this hideous rite, but little was written about it.

Josiah (King of Judah, 639 - 608 BCE )
Finally, the Bible tells us, Josiah destroyed these foreign cults and idols. He defiled the sanctuary in the valley of Hinnom, and the many other high places. He destroyed the altar made by Solomon and the prophet Jeremiah predicted that the valley would e called the ‘valley of slaughter.’ The name Hinnom became the general term for Hell.

While the cult of Molech was suppressed under the early reign of King Josiah, what is also important here is that Josiah became king at the age of eight. Thus it was Jeremiah who led the purge throughout Judah. One can only imagine the slaughter during the religious reformation, when anyone connected with the foreign cults was declared in violation of the laws of Yahweh and condemned.

Jehoiakim (King of Judah, 608-597 BCE)
King Jehoiakim reinstated the foreign cults, and Molech was probably among them although it is not specifically mentioned. The prophet Jeremiah, now an old man, wrote a letter condemning the changes, and Jehoiakim had the letter burnt before being read in full. The rift between royalty and the prophetic party was now deep and permanent. The kingdom of Judah remained idolatrous until the captivity in Babylon."

But, worshipping Molech in the Cremation of Care ceremony is OK...cuz Bush is a good Christian.... < wink >

note I said "usually speaks" there are exceptions. Bushs response in the third debate when asked how his faith affeted his decisions, his answer was right on the mark. but it's hard for non christains to understand that

more facts about the Christian nature of George W. Bush
"We know that Bush has been a substance abuser, both alcohol, and , it has been widely alleged, cocaine. We also know that Bush uses very coarse profanity in his little fits of rage, and that he has not stopped this.


http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles5/Hamilton_Bush-7Sins.htm


(please read this article...below is one example)



"Problem: In 1987, one year after he had given up drinking he ran into Al Hunt, a Wall Street Journal editor who was minding his own business sitting at a restaurant with his wife and 4-year-old daughter.

Bush lit into him, saying, among other things, "You no-good fucking son of a bitch, I will never fucking forget what you wrote." ( (Hunt had predicted that the 1988 Republican ticket would be Jack Kemp and Richard Lugar, instead of George Bush Sr and Dan Quayle.) What's interesting is that the Wall St Journal editor later commented that Bush was well "lubricated." (9) "



And, we know that he apparently again used very coarse language of a similar nature
far more recently when a question was asked about his relationship with Ken Lay of Enron...

http://www.betterworld.com/getreallist/article.php?story=20040804174956161



"Tubb prescribed the anti-depressants after a clearly-upset Bush stormed off stage on July 8, refusing to answer reporters' questions about his relationship with indicted Enron executive Kenneth J. Lay.

“Keep those motherfuckers away from me,” he screamed at an aide backstage. “If you can’t, I’ll find someone who can.”

-from, Bush's Jihad ~by CodeWarrior http://codewarriorz.blogspot.com

it'd a wonder anything positive gets done with so much hate.

and if he grew up an alterboy and lived the STERYOTYPICAL Christain life you're currently mocking him for not living, guess who would be the first in line critizing him. hmmmmm

just one thing...faith is what will doom humankind. screw faith. screw christians. remember the dark ages? that's what happens when christians or any other religion for that matter are allowed to have any semblence of power. yes i'm anti-christian. yes i'm anti-religion. i fell i should be able to do what i want because i want to as long as i'm not hurting anyone else. that is against most religions. screw bush. screw kerry. i'm pro-Badnarik!!!

that's your view. are you saying we don't have the right to practice what our faith dictates? if that's the case you don't believe in freedom or this country.

I will be glad when the elections are over and we can return to fighting the RIAA.

I hated the debates...I hate the political ads...I hate the waste of money on elections. I hate both sides moronic ceasless litanies of crimes against each other. And I have not read here for a very long time, cause it is the same old crap.

Although Code, you are still one sharp cookie. I would rather you were pushing your name as a write in candidate.

yes I hate having to defend someone I won't vote for. can't wait till we can all fight the RIAA again

WRITE ME IN FOR PREZ...FILESHARING RIGHTS FOR EVERYONE!

TheTap

What bush is saying is to hate. That is not Christian. He is also saying he is a Christian he is not. My dad was a preacher and he always said you should love your neighbor like you love yourself. My Dad would say Bush is a demon of the devil.

Both my parents were ministers.

I agree with gibd!

That's what I said in my 2nd post in this thread... all of this divides those who are in here who originally were united for a common cause.

The country is roughly divided 50-50 on the Presidential candidates. If you follow that through, then 1/2 (or slightly more, depending on which survey you read) of the readers in here will support Bush.

Posting anti Bush or anti Kerry threads will instantly alienate 1/2 of the members here.

That is not wise management of our community.

On a personal side-note, I take offense to someone saying "screw Christians", in response of me saying I'm a Christian. It's wrong and others here should be just as upset as I am. If I said here that I hate Jews.... you all know I'd be blasted by everyone of you - as I should be for such a horrid statement. But when it is leveled against Christians, it falls under the free speech, I can say what I want banner, and that is dead wrong.

I'll be nice to a point, but apologies are in order on this one.

Tap

as opposed to what I've been reading here? what hyprocracy. Bush may be a lot of things but he's not a hate monger. wanna see hate mongering? Click on nearly every political thread on this site and there you'll see it

That is not wise management of our community

great point. us independents have been saying that for a couple months. but emotional ranting tends to be more popular.

tap I sent you that email

What I don't like that bush is doing is using the Christian thing. As for me that is a sin. If he was a Christian he would not be using it. I will not vote for someone that is doing that. And he has use it in all the wrong ways. My view is anybody that lets this be a reason for voting for him is wrong. Just mt 2 cents.

I'm a Christian/Taoist/Huna follower with Jewish/German/Native American ancestry who's a non-violent anarchist leaning toward libertarianism...

so...there's a bit for everyone to dislike in me

LOL that's like saying I'm a democratic comunist who believes in one person one vote, populary elected president with a parlimentary form of government with a dictator who's rule must be law.

sorry Just my 2 cents

Code wrote: "I do not admire misplaced loyalty."

But I don't either.
I had written: (See post of 12:36 a.m.): "I have to admire the strength of their misplaced loyalty."

I thought perhaps it was okay to admire the essence of strength or tenacity per se, without necessarily approving how it's used. Sort of like, wow, it's misplaced -- too bad such vigor couldn't be channeled more appropriately! Or, too bad they can't put those ergs of energy to good use; just think what positive things could be accomplished if they did!
But, in retrospect, I can understand your opinion may be: why mention strength in any sort of "what if" way if it's only being used for ill-conceived purposes?

I can respect that perspective; no problem.
But, at least you have a better idea now where I was coming from.

Let's listen to Jesus...
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy...that's Saturday, not Sunday...to be Christ-like would be to observe the shabbat...or sabbath..meaning the 7th day of the week...Today is the FIRST day of the week...

Does Bush pray in public?
Read Matthew 6 : 6
"When you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly
—Matthew 6:6"

Professions of faith are not enough..one must actually do the will of the Father...
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. - Matthew 7:21"

Is a preemptive strike killed countless men and women something that a President should do, or God?

“Do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good”, and “Therefore if your enemy hungers, feed him”. (Romans 12:21/20)

“but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord”. (Leviticus 19:1

Was Bush seeking Vengeance for them plotting to kill his Poppy?

"On Saddam Hussein]
George W. Bush : After all, this is a guy who tried to kill my dad at one time."

For it is written, "Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, says the Lord." -Romans 12: 19

Comp wrote: "Bush's response in the third debate when asked how his faith affected his decisions, his answer was right on the mark."

Uh, oh, comp, I'm going to have to pull out part of one of the databases I've collected to reveal some real hypocrisy now.

"Bush conducts his presidency by 'secular', worldly values." (Quoting Ari Fleischer, White House Press Secretary)
How about them apples?
It all goes back to what 'Code has said several times: The man presses the buttons that appeal to his base of support, and he doesn't mind pretending to be oh-so-religious when it suits his advantage.

a great example of misplaced loyalty was G. Gordon Liddy.

His book "WILL" is a testament to what misplaced loyalty gets you. I too respect loyalty, in and of itself, but misplaced loyalty is a dangerous thing.

To quote Stevie Wonder...
"When you believe in things that you don't understand
Then you suffer, superstition ain't the way" - Superstitions

The man presses the buttons that appeal to his base of support, and he doesn't mind pretending to be oh-so-religious when it suits his advantage.

you just described every politician in this country. including those in power, corporate ceo's, managers, police, and even website admins

Bottom line for me: No candidate is to be evaluated by what he says.
But, we know a number of things Bush has already DONE.
And, we know a number of things Ashcroft is in the actual process of DOING.
Can we in good conscience be in favor of them having four more (this time unaccountable) years of their kind of crap?
No, Kerry ain't no saint, and he ain't untarnished by any means. I've already said how bitter I am about both major parties giving us such lousy choices as they do even starting all the way back to the primaries. But how can anyone live with themselves voting another term for Dubya, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz? Seriously, now.

"The man presses the buttons that appeal to his base of support, and he doesn't mind pretending to be oh-so-religious when it suits his advantage."

"You just described every politician in this country. including those in power, corporate ceo's, managers, police, and even website admins."

That first part of my statement IS a truism, I grant you, but how many are willing to be RELIGIOUSLY hypocritical when it comes to furthering their self-interests? THAT'S one of the places the line should be drawn to separate the grossly unethical from the mildly unethical. With integrity, there is (or should be) a sense of degree here. To what degree does Dubya belong? -- ah, that is the question to be begged.

ALL presidents do good and bad things. it's the effectivness that gets the general public to support or oppose them. I'm not voting for him but I refuse to take the bias attitude so many here have that he has done absolutly nothing good and worthwhile in his job.

I think I press the buttons of those who oppose me rather than appeal to my base..but hey, what do I know...

humans are all hyprocritical by nature in their actions and beliefs. I once had a minister ask the congragation "who here is a hypocryte." he went on to say that everyone better have their hands up. You can find hyprocricy in Mother Theresa if you look hard enough (and you would have to look pretty hard) But when there's so much hatred for the president, hate has a mind of it's own and the natural hyprocracy will be blown out of proportion. I think it's a very big non issue. right up there with the bulge in his suit

". . . but I refuse to take the biased attitude so many here have that he has done absolutly nothing good and worthwhile in his job."

A valid point of agreement for us to relish.

He HAS done some good.
But, at this point, faced with the ominous prospect of four more years of his bruisers like Ashcroft and Rumsfeld, we who cherish our liberties have got to take serious stock of the situation.

I'm still waiting for him to do something good...hopefully,
a polite aceptance of defeat call to Kerry the night after the election will be his one good act

acceptance..sorry for typo

And also consider, given some of the really bad decisions he has already made, can we afford the prospect of him and his henchmen poised to screw things up (perhaps even worse) for another four years?

Demandrelevance we have agreement.

codes statement is exactly what I'm talking about. I can't see how anyone can be objective with that kind of anomosity

In the interest of this website (which touts individual liberties), it all comes down to this:
A vote for Dubya is a vote for Ashcroft.
('nuff said.)

practice your faith...in your house, in your church, but not in Our gov't!

Nothwithstanding, I will defend to the death your RIGHT to vote for Dubya.
(Did I really say that?)

From the well versed (pun intended) Code:

Does Bush pray in public?
Read Matthew 6 : 6
"When you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly
—Matthew 6:6"

*** Christ prayed openly when he healed people, when he fed 5000, in the garden, and in the upper room. This verse was a warning to those who pray openly for the sole purpose of being seen.

Professions of faith are not enough..one must actually do the will of the Father...
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. - Matthew 7:21"

*** and what is the will of the Father? To accept Christ's death as your sin payment (Rom 3:22-24

Is a preemptive strike killed countless men and women something that a President should do, or God?

** I really don't want to get into this one but after 9-11, nothing is preemtive.

“Do not be overcome with evil, but overcome evil with good”, and “Therefore if your enemy hungers, feed him”. (Romans 12:21/20)

*** America has been feeding it's enemies since as long as I can remember. Even in the 80's we fed Russia while they threatened to stomp us.

“but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord”. (Leviticus 19:1

*** for every verse like this, you can give me 10 more that have God instructing Israel to kill it's godless enemies - men, women and children. You know the OT. God is love but God is also Holy and Righteous and he will only tolerate so much before his judgment comes. God often uses other nations to punish nations. It's His plan not mine.

The same way you asked me to read your Blogs with an unbiased eye and to try to be honest, I ask the same of you with the bible that you know so well.

I'm sorry to drag this out but you are a very interesting person.

Tap

mmnuc3: Right on!

apologize to those burnt in salam, mass, apologize for the "witch" trials. i believe that even though i did point out christians, i said faith in general also. so, take it as you want. if i'm racist, anti-religionist, etc i can be. if it offends you, maybe you should move to a country where christianity is the law. freedom of speech means even that which is offensive thetap

And, should the question come up...my vote is that ONLY ONE ANGEL can dance on the head of a pin...that's my vote and I'm sticking to it!

When Bush prays for God to forgive those who are crucifying him "for they know not what they do"...instead of promising to
chase 'em, hunt 'em, and kill all the terrorists (and yes, Kerry said that nonsense too)...I'll listen closer...

If Bush really is a Christian...maybe he SHOULD go that crucifixion route...he'll "git" to heaven quicker....

But...I do respect your response TheTap...that's the kind of dialogue we NEED to have...

Volley well met

Sorry, mmnuc3, you have it wrong.

Yes, you can say what you want, as can I.

I can sit here and type anti-simetic comments, I can say I hate Muslims, I can curse out my wife and tomorrow I can curse out my boss.

But just because you CAN say something, does not mean you should.

With freedom of speech, like any freedom, comes the responsibility to use good judgment.

Go to a ballpark and make racial slurs - the freedom of speech defense will not help you.

Try standing on a Plane, shouting that you have a bomb and then use the freedom of speech defense... I'll be visiting you in jail.

All I'm asking is that we show more respect to one another. No, I can't make you, but I won't do it back... I respect YOU too much for that and it's proper, civil behavior.

Tap

christains practice their faith in the way they live their everyday life. by your suggestion no christain can ever be in government. You seem to forget our government, and country were founded on christain principles and intergrated with British law and the structure of the Iriquois nation. you can't remove faith from people by cussing or calling names. you'll never remove it from government. If you choose not to have faith then so be it. I'll live where I want.

Freedom of speech wasn't intended by our fourfathers to be used by hateful people to offend others. did you become personally tramitized by the salem which hunts (the victims were christains too by the way) or the middle age trails? did you have relitives that were persecuted by those so called christains? if so I can understand your hatered. if not sounds like an excuse to justify the hate that already exists. Secular non christain people and orginazations cause much more pain and suffering among people than the so called christains back centuries ago.

my favorite part of the bible is the place where they talk about "so and so begat so and so"...I used to kick butt with the adults who claimed to know the Bible and could quote ad nauseum...I would ask them, if you know it so well...who was the father of Bukki and Uzzi?

See...that's a trick question and would get them....
Answer...
Abishua begat Bukki, and Bukki begat Uzzi,

Code you'll never listen with an unbiased ear if God himself came down and gave you a revelation. that's how deep your hatred goes

Code,

It's all I can do to keep from adam to Noah straight in my head (the main heads of the families). I can also get the 12 sons of Israel, but if you know all of those geanologies you got me beat!

Sadly, I think I have a better working knowledge of the Godfather lineage!
The Dom, Sonny, Fredo, Michael...

Tap

don't forget Anthony, Michaels son and Vincent, Sonnys boy

Michael wouldn't let Kate take his boy away and Sonny's inability to control his tongue and temper (note to entire group) cost him his life.

Dom Corleone had it right - watch what you say and who you say it to. Never express anger.


Tap

Never let anyone outside the family know what you're thinking again.

A scripture for you Code: In the multitude of words, there wanteth not transgression; But he that refraineth his lips is wise. (Proverbs 10:19 Jewish Publication Society translation)

Just kidding.

However, in answer to your piece about Molech, and Bush worshipping this false God, didn't that occur long before Bush was actually born again? Many idol-worshippers have forsaken their religion and committed themselves to Christ. You can't dredge up their past sins after that. That's the whole point of redemption.

Why does Mr. Bush not keep the Sabbath day? I would say it is because he has been miseducated by his spiritual teachers. Why don't you write him a letter, Code, and try to help him out. Christ said that not the tiniest part of the law would pass away, as long as heaven and earth still exist.

To JBLRMECHANIC, ummmm maybe you could cite the section of the Constitution that says "separation of church and state," because I think you've made a blunder claiming it is in the US Constitution. There is a clause that forbids the establishment of a state religion, but there is some difference between that and total separation. To my knowledge, both Houses of Congress still open their sessions with prayer!

As for Bartlett, the author of the NYTimes piece, he says, "The whole thing about faith is to believe things for which there is no empirical evidence." I agree with this only to a point. Too many people believe that faith is a decision to commit to something without evidence and consideration. But the Bible says, "Prove all things. Hold fast that which is good." God in other places invites people to test Him. Even to reason with Him. Faith does not mean to just turn off your brain and believe. I don't think Bush operates that way. Nor do I think Mr. Bartlett understands much about Christian faith.

As for reasoning with terrorists, I'd like to see anybody try to reason with some kid that has been programmed in a Pakistani madrass with a bomb strapped to their chest, thinking they are on their way to 72 virgins. For all of Bush's faults, I'm afraid that Kery really does think you can negotiate with Muslim extremists. One look at the aftermath of the Oslo accords ought to disabuse us of that fantasy.

Liberals often see faith like Mr. Bush's as a weakness, perhaps even an illness. There are many in this country who know it as a source of strength. There is a vast gulf between, and that's one reason why the country is so divided politically.

One thing that I believe most Biblical scholars would agree with me about is Jesus tried to stress that his kingdom was NOT of this world, and he did NOT want to get mixed up with the politics of the day. There are those who disagree with this view, but for the most part, the orthodox view is that the Jewish zealots, (some believe Judas belonged to the zealots) were mad at Jesus because he didn't use his influence with his followers to advocate overthrow of the Romans, and reinstatement of the Jewish king....but he kept telling everyone that his kingdom was NOT of this world...render under Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's.

Jesus , in general, eschewed the mixing of religion and politics.
http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm_os072.htm
"This is because the Priesthood was, to a large part, corrupted, and was too involved in the day's politics."

The Sanhedrin was one such mixing of politics and religion that Jesus would disapprove of (and who disapproved of him)
http://www.billpetro.com/HolidayHistory/hol/easter/san.hp.html
"SANHEDRIN

The Greek word 'sunedrion', translated council is referred to in the
New Testament as "the Great Law-Court", "the Court of Seventy-One", and
"the rulers and elders and scribes". It was the supreme theocratic
court of the Jews and reflected the local autonomy which the Greek and
Roman powers granted the Jewish nation. Its origin can be traced back
as far as 200 B.C. The council had 70 members plus the ruling high
priest. Three professional groups composed the council: high priests
(the acting high priest and former high priests) and members of the
chief-priestly families; elders (tribal and family heads of the people
and the priesthood); and scribes (legal professionals). At the time of
Jesus two religio-political parties within Judaism were represented in
this membership: the Sadducees of the majority and the Pharisees of
the minority. Caiaphas the high priest was a Sadducee. Most of the
scribes were Pharisees. The presiding officer of the council was
usually the high priest.

The council was connected with the minor courts, being the highest
court of appeal from these. The Sanhedrin's authority was broad and
far-reaching, involving legislation, administration, and justice.
There was religious, civil, and criminal jurisdiction. However, during
the time of Jesus, the council had lost to the Roman governor the power
of capital punishment. The council met daily, except on Sabbath and
feast days, in a session room adjoining the temple. In extraordinary
cases, the council met at the house of the high priest. One of the
responsibilities of the Sanhedrin was the identification, and
confirmation of the Messiah. The gospel writers identify a delegation
from the council going out to question John the Baptist as to whether
he was the Messiah. There were about a dozen false Messiahs running
around during the first part of this century deceiving the people, and
it was the responsibility of the council to identify and denounce
them. This is why Jesus had to eventually come into conflict with them."

God did give me a revelation...in Revelations...as he did John on the Isle of Patmos. He also told me personally, through the Bible..to beware of false prophets...thus I am warning everyone about King George the Cowardly.

Bush "preys" all right...He preys on the public who seek security from a false bogeyman under the spreading batwings of a tyrant.

A few more thoughts about faith:

Let's say I ask my friend to do an errand for me. I have faith he will carry it out. Why? If he has been reliable and honest in the past, why wouldn't I have faith, in the absence of any evidence or guarantee, that he will do what he has agreed to do? And if a person I know to be honest and trustworthy tells me that X happened to him, then I will have faith that X actually happened. Without any evidence. The difference lies in actually knowing the person who is talking to me. I learn to trust that person, learn to have faith in his word, over time. Just anyone off the street, I would not believe, unless they had proof.

Those who do not know God, or do not even believe that God exists (therefore, how could anyone know Him?), have trouble understanding that a person's faith in God or in the Bible can be similarly built up by a record of reliability, a record of experience and interaction with God.

Once in a debate -- it might have been during the primaries -- one of the moderaters asked Bush to elaborate on a particular aspect of his faith. I can't remember the specifics at the moment. Bush's answer was to the effect that if you know Christ, you already know what he (Bush) was talking about. And if you didn't know Christ, there was no way to explain it in a way that others could understand.

Bush has a large base of support from millions of people in this country who believe they have had a similar experience, have touched Christ, in the way that Bush has described. Bush does not have to explain to us. And he cannot explain to the others. I am looking forward to reading this article, but I suspect that a lot of the incredulity of the "media elite" (for lack of a better term) toward Bush's professed faith has to do with this fundamental disconnect.

To be fair, if anyone can list ten "good" things Bush did...I will list them on my blog tonight or in the morning....

and don't give me that tax cut nonsense that proved to do more harm than good...I will take deposing Saddam as maybe a good thing, though I think the world is more dangerous now than before we "liberated" the place...and I will give credit to whoever comes up with the list...how fair can I be?

An internet Christian minister of note had reported only five "good fruits" that can be ascribed to Dubya during his four years of tenure, whereas 37 "bad fruits" were documented.
I thought that was fascinating. "Fruits" are the Biblical term for deeds; and, as he correctly pointed out, words don't count nearly so much as actions. That's what Jesus had said, too, by the way. ("By their fruits ye shall know them.")

Anyone interested in the five good fruits?

I listed ten, because remember God would have spared Sodom if they could have found just ten righteous men in the whole place...
< wink >

I want to hear the five good fruits harvested from this "bush"

I've heard Bush is a fruit...there were those rumors about a young ambassador he fancied...

it's not up to anyone here to judge. Jesus led his life as an example for us to lead. if that's the case He didn't constantly ridicule and slander those who had strayed like you do with Bush and I won't even consider giving you examples because you have already shown your bias and hatred and will knock down, ridicule, satarize anything anyone tries to say on his behalf. Your mastery of the language and your power as an admisistrator of the web sites guarentee you'll always be right. kinda like Bill Oriley.

Code,

God initially asked for 50. The Abraham got him down to 40, then Abraham got him down to 30....and so on until Abraham got God to let him find 10!!

Now we all know that Jewish people are excellent financial negotiators, and that is in no way an insult...it is a compliment in the highest order.

Abraham bargained God down from 50 to 10. How good was he???

I want him to negotiate my next employment contract !!!! If he can whittle God from 50 to 10, he can talk to my boss!!!!


Tap

You're right; five good is inadequate, especially when comparing to the 37 bad (and some of those are pretty darn bad). In fact, if the public had to consider those things, not a few supporters' votes for him would likely be reconsidered.
Anyway, here is the list. (We'll all keep in mind that this is from a Christian perspective -- but, in fairness, Bush calls himself a believer of the Bible and that he has faith in the Lord, so it is only right to give him credit for the actions that are in keeping with his proclaimed designation of being a leader who is also a Christian.

Bush claims he was delivered from alcohol addiction after he converted to Christianity.

CWA praises Bush for Dr. Hager’s appointment and hails victory for religious freedom,12/’02.

The White House has placed restrictions on embryonic stem cell research and opposes using stem cells from most embryos. (This is not tantamount to a total ban, however.)

Bush supports a Consititutional amendment to affirm the traditional definition of marriage.

Bush ridded the world of a despicable tyrant (Saddam Hussein), although the total cost in lives and alienation of having done so is yet to be weighed in the balance.

You're right Tap..and I of course knew it started at a higher number..but, in Sodom, it was so corrupt you KNEW you wouldn't find 50...and I just knew no one could give me 50 good things that Bush has done...so just ten...
Comp...gimme ten good things he's done and I wish post them in my blog and credit you this very night!

And Abraham commited incest
"And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife."
Genesis 20:11-12

as did Lot...
http://www.mcgoodwin.net/pages/otherbooks/bible_pentateuch.html
"Lot's incest with his daughters yields the Moabites and the Ammonites."

brw Tap...didn't know if anyone gave you an official Welcome...but WELCOME

I'm glad you're here!

btw...not brw

comp...Bill Oriley (Bill O'Reilly) is not always right...as his former producer will show him in court

I like the quotes I made about O'Reilly in my blog..

I said the following:
O'Reilly's mouth is an open wound spewing pus.

O'Reilly gives pus a bad name.

and...
O'Reilly excels only in his pyogenicity.


I had to "opine" on that one.

I'm half Jewish,so I can only "ijew" people down to retail .

to Audodidact,
I apologise for my confusion about what i said about the US Constitution, but this was a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to fellow church member in Connnecticut in 1801 and I quote "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.]
and article 1 of the US constitution also says "Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Again, I don't have a problem with prayer and having faith. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem starts when people of faith use thier beleifs to repress and discriminate others who do not share their views of beliefs. Why does religion need to be in our politics anyway? Haven't we learned from history that religion has been used to manipulate, control, hurt, repress, kill and deny others?

Code,

I've been here for well over a year, I just usually post about music. Search and you'll see. I read every day.

My high horse is the "dark net". I've posted a few times. I believe the 'dark-net' is what will allow mp3 trading to continue in the future. The RIAA can go after Kazza traders, but with private, invitation only networks... they don't stand a chance.

I know of Colleges who block file trading apps (Kazza, BearShare), but have dozens of students running private FTP servers. The college can't detect them, and neither can the RIAA.

FTP, BadBlue, bittorrent, and a host of others will keep music trading alive and away from their prying eyes.

Even if this new modified Induce legislation is passed, they can't see invitation only networks. Maybe it will come to that, but the music trading will continue. I am a friend of invitation only trading circles that the RIAA doesn't even know exist.

I have access to 10s of thousand of MP3's on private networks, and that is not an exageration.

How can they sue the hosts if they can't log the activity?

Ha!! The RIAA has already lost.


Tap

Code.. I thought you said you were going to clean your house!! When you have a "religious" president, see how religion gets ahead of the political issues of the day, such as sane health care, or housing for the poor, or meaningful education for all.. How many times are we going to hear these same arguments over and over and over and over. If you criticize the ultrareligious, see how they bark and bark about "their right to practice their faiths'" which, in this country, they have.. but then they want to put their bible-spewing religious stamp on EVERYONE in the name of freedom!! Go, Tap, be religious and blather to me no more.. I have the right to my spirituality without your, or Bush's misguidance.

I did manage to clean the kitchen Mary

Hoo boy, am I glad I finally decided to post on here! Whether or now you may know it, I am a good friend of mm3nuc. As a matter of fact, we are about as close as can be without actually being brothers. That doesn't mean that I agree with everythign he says; actually, we usually end up in screaming matches about articles of faith, politics, and finances. But that is all beside the point.

I'm voting independent, for a lot of reasons. But, I want to set some stuff right, and maybe put some ppl in thier place. Lesse, where to start...

*TheTap and CodeWarrior*
>
>Does Bush pray in public?
>Read Matthew 6 : 6
>"When you pray, go into your room, and >when you have shut your door,
>pray to your Father who is in the secret >place; and your Father who sees
>in secret will reward you openly
>—Matthew 6:6"
>
>*** Christ prayed openly when he healed >people, when he fed 5000, in
>the garden, and in the upper room. This >verse was a warning to those who
>pray openly for the sole purpose of being >seen.
Well Tap, that may be all true. I read as much as the typical Christian, and it seems to me that Jesus is an incredible exception. As a matter of fact, there has been no other person like him, according to your faith: He is the Living Son of God! If you are Unitarian, Trinitarian, or Pentacostal, there is no denying that God can do some things that nobody else would be allowed. This also goes with his spate of rage from the merchants selling in Temple (not exactly the sort of Love thine enemy attitude he was preaching; he didn't even blow up that bad on the Pharisees).

>Professions of faith are not enough..one >must actually do the will of the
>Father...
>"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, >Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom
>of Heaven; but he who does the will of >my Father who is in heaven.
>- Matthew 7:21"
>
>*** and what is the will of the Father? To >accept Christ's death as your
>sin payment (Rom 3:22-24)

Actually, there is a lot more to God's particluar will than that. Jesus brought about a new order of God's will, one that professed complete nonviolence, you know, turn the other cheek? Not that any Christian denomination has EVER actually listened to that (The Crusades 1,2,3,4, and the Children's Crusade; tithing from the peasents of Europe to the point of death by starvation, the dispensation of indulgences to those who could afford them (sounds like pandering to special interests to me), the Spanish Inquisition [which was headed by a Cardinal of the faith no less], the re-writing of theBible of King George to scare the indigenous pagans into Christianity, the living flaying of both William Wallace and Martin Luther, the Salem Witch Trials, the despicable act of Eminent Domain in the pioneering times when we killed a lot of the Indian nations *including the Iriquois, compmore*, the rise of the Knights of the Klu Klux Klan by the Southern Baptist Civil War veterans.....)
There is also this impossible standard of Living like God would. Sorry, but humans are flawed.

>Is a preemptive strike killed countless >men and women something that a
>President should do, or God?
>
>** I really don't want to get into this one >but after 9-11, nothing is
>preemtive.

I agree! Let's kill the terrorists! Osama bin Laden put oout a plan to assassinate Hussein! Doesn't sound like they were all too good of buddies. Also, a vast majority of the terrorists involved in the attacks were Saudi. The bin Laden family is Saudi! Why aren't we attacking the Saudis?!

>“but you shall love your neighbor as >yourself: I am the Lord”.
>(Leviticus 19:1
>
>*** for every verse like this, you can >give me 10 more that have God
>instructing Israel to kill it's godless >enemies - men, women and children.
>You know the OT. God is love but God is >also Holy and Righteous and
>he will only tolerate so much before his >judgment comes. God often uses
>other nations to punish nations. It's His >plan not mine.

Sorry, but all of that flew right out the window with Jesus. He said that only God was allowed to take another life. I mean, if the Old Testament laws were still in effect, you could beat women, cut off ears for theft, and bring people into slavery for indebtedness or destruction of property. Try reading the resto f Exodus and Leviticus, and even Numbers!

Now, on to another.

>*Compmore*
>christains practice their faith in the way >they live their everyday life. by
>your suggestion no christain can ever be >in government.
Not at all!! Kennedy was a practicing Catholic! Look how much good he did! Did he ever claim God had ANYTHING to do with it? NO!
>You seem to forget our government, and >country were founded on christain >principles and intergrated with British law >and the structure of the Iriquois nation.
WhAt?! We LEFT the British gov't because of unfair taxation (which we seem to have gotten back into the habit of *be Patriotic and try to pay as little in taxes as possible!*) and because they WERE a unified government of church and State! Remember the Puritans? They left because of all the flak they were getting becuase they were not Anglicans. They were unfairly taxed, weren't given the same rights and privilages, weren't allowed the same jobs, and couldn't practice thier faith. Is that what you want to go back to? I'm not arguing that the country was founded on "christian" principals. They are what any humanitarian system should be built on. However, so do the Hindus, the Muslims, the Native Americans, the Sufis (who are MUSLIM!!!!!!!!!!), and most of the Pagan community. Christians like to take things that make them sound good and claim it for thier own, even if it was a much older idea (Easter, Halloween, Valentine's, Christmas *it's really a drunken Roman Orgy, look it up!*...)
>you can't remove faith from people by >cussing or calling names.
HERETIC!! UNBELIVER!! SPAWN OF SATAN!! GODLESS PAGAN!!! REPENT NOW OR WE'LL KILL YOU!!! (last one from the Inquisition and certain parts of W. Virginia *I'm not kidding aobut that last one. Friend from another group had a harrowing experience.*
>you'll never remove it from government.
Communism did a very good job of doing it *ahem*.
>If you choose not to have faith then so
>be it. I'll live where I want.
What does that last part even mean?! I'm pagan. DO you realize how many times I almost got beat down for being proud of my religion? And invariably, it was the Christians who threw the punches (or rocks, baseballs, baseball bats, bullets...). You can live right here in America! I just don't want a theocracy, which is what you are supporting if you want no separation between church and state. I don't look forward to that, because it means forced conversion, if I'm lucky. If not, it means death or exile. Just look at Iraq and Iran.

>Freedom of speech wasn't intended by >our fourfathers to be used by
>hateful people to offend others.

What is offensive to you? A lot of people found abolition offensive. A lot of people found emancipation offensive. A lot of people found the right for colored people and women to vote. Feedom of speech was meant EXACTLY for hateful people to offend others. Those people that spoke made abolition and emancipation possible were HATEFUL of the treatment of slaves. They intentionally wnet out ofthier way to offend people to get them angry enough to make a change. A quick refresher in Civics would be very beneficial for you.

>Secular non christain people and >orginazations cause much more pain and
>suffering among people than the so called >christains back centuries ago.

Like who? Who shoots abortion clinic doctors? There are palces in America where there are still Church book burnings. Hitler was a praticing Christian, although an *extremely* warped one. Most Neo-Nazi organizations, and the KKK, require you to be a WASP (white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, for those who do not know). I haven't heard of a single Jewish hate group, or a Hindu one, or a Buddhist one, or a Shinto one, or a Zoroastirist one, or a Shamanic one, or a Pagan one. The only other group of people who come to mind for sheer hate and pain and suffering arethe Muslims. And bear in mind that the Muslims wouldn't have existed without the Christian religion! They have some winners too; the Hashishim for one, and the original Assassins for another. *Yes, assassin was from the mid-East as a term; they were a fanatic religious group.*

I do not believe in the loss of freedoms as a way to protect them. Hitler's first two acts as head ofthe Reichstag were to create a "Department of Security for the Fatherland," and to abolish gun rights for any private citizens who were not members of the Nazi party. Seem familiar? True liberty stems from the right to do whatever you want, so long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. Government should be specifically geared towards upholding that lofty goal. That's why I'm voting Libertarian. Say what you will, but it all ties back into bringing freedom to all, including the right to file share.

I won't say anymore. I don't want this thread deleted like the last time. gonna go spend some time with my wife now that she's awake. it's her birthday. take care.

tell her happy birthday

Comp....Happy Birthday to this Mrs!

Code,

You can email me too. I won't ignore you. Address posted way earlier.

And compmore, I hope your wife's birthday is a happy event. Cherish these occasions and make her feel very special. Every good man is complimented by a great wife.

My wife is celebrating #50 later this year and I hope to make it a special event.

This has been an interesting day. I really hope that God is glorified thru me.

As members of Boycott-RIAA we all have a common goal and I consider ALL of you my friends in that sense.

Besides that, the Eagles won and they are undefeated. I won't say God interviend, but Donovan McNabb and Terell Owens are a match made in heaven !!!

Bring it on!!!


Tap

"Now we all know that Jewish people are excellent financial negotiators, and that is in no way an insult...it is a compliment in the highest order."

Oh yes, we all know that. Those Jews won't pay a penny more than is necessary. Those Jews know everything there is to know about money. That's why all the Jews are rich and control the world. They get together once a week in secret meetings over in Jewtown.

Amazing.

"My wife is celebrating #50 later this year and I hope to make it a special event."

Maybe if you meet with some of your local Jews they can tell how to negotiate a great deal on party supplies.

you guys and girls are crazy!!!!

@ mroop

mroop.. read my 800 Pound Gorilla Thread here.. I would be interested in your input.
Tap and nukewaste.. you have been lied to.. do your homework and don't let anyone else mess with your faith or intelligence.


VOTE!

Since no one could come up with ten good things Bush has done in four years....I rest my case.

Wait, Code. George learned how to drive a golf ball.
Learned how to use a chain saw.
Learned how to look down and stall for time while waiting for information to come in his ear.
Learned the names of some countries and some of their leaders.
Learned how to love women, the best he can.
Has done a lot of "hard work".
Has a new appreciation for Poland.
Has new appreciation for his brother, Jeb and the state of Florida.

Sorry. I tried.

10. Learned how to keep from falling off a bicycle.
(The trick is to not ride it anymore.)

Jazzmary, I'm just a little bit curious: what have I been lied to about? New knowledge is always good knowledge, even if it's not the truth. After all, how can one know a lie if one doesn't even know a lie exists? And as for faith, well, some places it's just better to keep my mouth shut and practice in silent, because it offends people so much that I am different that they feel they must take an action to change my perspective. Or beat me senseless.

Code;I believe Bush is only using his perceived fundamentalist beliefs as a means of power gathering from right wing fundamentalist groups and others who consider themselves Christians...
read my thoughts on my blogs....

I was once a radical christain for Christ, serving man in a man made building/tewmple until God opened my eyes to the GREAT deception in the so called American church. There is religon and there is God, a relationship "one on one" with him. God made redemption simple and plain man confused it with his own rules and regulations putting a middle man between you and God.

The bible passage "nothing new under the sun"

Constatine 325 Ad ruler of Rome did the same thing Bush is doing today. READ THE HISTORY OF HIM! Using religon to gain for his own agenda. Constatine knew if Rome was to survive he needed to win over the Christain population.

George Bush the "Bonesman" is doing the same for his much needed vote to carry on his war agenda and fullfill his daddys desire's to continue building the "New world Order"

But in the end , when all the armies of the world muster at the valley of Armageddon" Decisions will no longer be in mans hands.

Corante is detailing how theyre instituting yet another DRM scheme to lock down the "analog hole".

www.corante.com/copyfight

This is disgusting. I plan to abandon tv entirely and start reading novels until congress starts obeying the public consciousness.

WE NEED A CALL IN DAY.. GET ALL THE PEOPLE WHO CALLED IN TO SUPPORT BETAMAX AGAINST INDUCE TO CALL TO SUPPORT BETAMAX AGAINST DTV LOCKDOWN.

Christians are sheep anyway following blindly because of what the "preacher" said. One can do all kinds of atrocities in the name of God but that doesn't make them right.
I should know all of this growing up in a "Christian" home and going to a
"Christian" school and going to a "Christian" church. Wheras these lunatics would rather stone you than to have to make up their own mind on a subject. When I left their religion back when I was 15 the "preacher" suggested to my parents that they should perform an exorcism on me.
I truly believe the "Christians" at least the majority are severely deceived and the small majority of us that saw the problems with the religious structure will be the "few" in the last days...the christian majority will follow their leaders and preachers blindly destroying themselves and everyone else and believing the whole time they were doing the greater good.

The REAL terrorists in this country that stalk citizens daily are the four Hs...

Homelessness, Hopelessness, Hunger, and Health Problems.

Suffer war no more...let's BUILD AMERICA and stop the AMERIKA building...

Wicthinghour..... I have talked to more and more people that feel the same as you. The wide path to hell will be the so called Christain sheep or better yet goats decieved.

Wow, I go away for awhile and come back to this post....First of all, why is everyone arguing about a Faith based President?

ALL your past Presidents have been Faith based Christians. Have a look here
http://www.adherents.com/adh_presidents.html

And looking at todays situation?
http://www.the-tidings.com/2004/0813/essays.htm

>>

>> He pointed out that Senator Kerry, the Democratic nominee for President, "doesn't seem to get this," nor do many of the people running his party or the campaign. Brooks cited a recent Time magazine poll that indicated that only seven percent of Americans feel that Kerry is a man of strong religious faith --- a number he called "catastrophic.">>

>>>>When one thinks of the U.S. Presidents of the past 70 years, only three of the 12 --- Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and George W. Bush --- have been open about their personal religious convictions and sentiments. Not surprisingly, each embraces a broadly Evangelical type of Christian faith. Two are Southern Baptists, and the other, a "born again" Methodist>>>>>

Anyways, you can all read the above it you care to.

Coming from Canada, I can certainly understand why some people might be very concerned about the religious affiliations of their leaders. Up here we had the Transendental Meditation Party led by Doug Henning (the magician) whose solution to the energy crisis was "collective levitation"

Didn't you just love the "70's????

By the Way-God Can USE anyone....

Just remember...

Noah was a drunk
Abraham was too old
Isaac was a daydreamer
Jacob was a liar
Leah was ugly
Joseph was abused
Moses had a stuttering problem
Gideon was afraid
Sampson had long hair and was a womanizer
Rahab was a prostitute
Jeremiah and Timothy were too young
David had an affair and was a murderer
Elijah was suicidal
Isaiah preached naked
Jonah ran from God
Naomi was a widow
Job went bankrupt
John the Baptist ate bugs
Peter denied Christ
The Disciples fell asleep while praying
Martha worried about everything
The Samaritan woman was divorced, more than once
Zaccheus was too small
Paul was too religious
Timothy had an ulcer...

AND

Lazarus was dead!

What do you have that's worse than that?

Theres nothing wrong with fait but using religon for personnal gain I have a problem with. And I don't think any of the above people were tied to the Skull & Bones secret society. When interviewed on Face the Nation about this secret society George said yes I belong to it and its secret so I can't say anything. Now thats a man of God?

Sort of shows hes a flipflop when it comes to serving two masters or serving one God like the bible says

There is a difference in true faith or mans religous manipulation of people and power.

freeforall

I'm SO glad I'm not responsible for judging people here on earth..that's left up to the Lord, and if George Bush is truly guilty of what some people percieve about him, then he WILL have to answer for it. But not to you, nor me. This election as well, is in the Lords Hands.

I don't know, but it seems to me that we get into trouble if we confess our faith, and/or we get into trouble if we don't (who was talking about praying in the closet?)

The election is not in the lord's hands -- it's up to the american voters.

I think if George would confess his sins he would be better off

Carla is right if God gave men freewill the election is up to the American voters.

"This election as well, is in the Lords Hands."
Pepe, that kind of thinking is very frustrating to me. I agree with Carla. It is up to the VOTERS. Even if you're religious, don't you believe in a free will?

Because we're all a bunch of chemicals.
There's a certain amount of shifting that an environment can produce.
I believe that "conservatives" have a different brain and no amount of reason can convince them of reality.

Plea to conservatives: stop reproducing.

I misread your post wrong, lachatte.
Time for lunch, my brain is not firing well.

Of course I believe in free will, that's my very stand!
As voters you are free to vote for whomever you please. Let the best man win!

My thoughts on this is that no matter what the outcome of this election, whether you feel it to be bad, good or indifferent, God will still be here, still in control, still loving His people.

Amen Brother






The REAL terrorists in this country that stalk citizens daily are the four Hs...

Homelessness, Hopelessness, Hunger, and Health Problems.

Suffer war no more...let's BUILD AMERICA and stop the AMERIKA building...>

I found this awesome site that explains things a little better than I, Prayer versus God's Will, or free will versus God's Will..... good perspective.

>>>>>Jesus presented many paradoxes. From the Zen koans to modern therapists, paradox is used creatively to flip us out of rational stuck states and intellectual inertia. Spiritual knowledge and experience is beyond logic!>>>

>>>Jesus presented many metaphors for the power of prayer. He talked about the woman who kept bothering the judge until he gave her what she needed. He told about how a man went to his neighbor at a late hour asking for some bread to feed unexpected guests and got it through persistence. He also added the observation that if we humans know how to give gifts to one another, ("If a son asks his father for bread, will he give him a stone?" (Mt. 7), how much more will God then provide us what we ask.

So has God made up His "mind" so to speak, or will, about our personal situations and outcomes? If He did, then why pray? If He didn't then is God indecisive or is He waiting? Neither questions make sense to me because I cannot conceive of God being "indecisive" and He is timeless so there is no experience of "waiting". These are problematic thoughts due to our limited language and human perspective. On the spiritual level, where logic and reason does not count for much (although we sure try enough to "figure out" the mysteries!),

I believe we "influence" the will of God, in a sense. Our prayers themselves are part of His will. Our faith is also. God hears the prayers of our future since He is "there" already, words we haven't even thought yet. Christ pointed out, "He knows what you are going to ask before you ask it." (Mt. 6:

Please read on if you care to

http://www.prayergear.com/prayer.html

pepe, I can think of at least one U S Presiden who wasn't faith-based- Thomas Jefferson. He was as close to a public atheist as you could come to in those days. He actually made a reised version of the New Testament and cut out all of the miracles. Don't confuse faith and ethics, they are very different. The last time I heard of a political decision in the US based on God's will, we had Eminent Domain. That was not a good point in our country's history.

"I believe we "influence" the will of God, in a sense."
Bill Maher talked about prayer a couple of months ago on his show "Real Time w/Bill Maher on HBO. Does anyone remember exactly what he said?
I think he wondered how if two sides were praying, who would get God's help. Who prayed the best or the loudest? Hmmm.

You know, one of the big things I don't like about Christianity is this constant skirting of predestination. You claim free will, yet purport a god who is omniscient. Those two don't mesh very well. Either God knows what you are going to do before you do it, in which case He is so cruel to the point of human incomprehension (I'll get to that later); or freee will can be used to change the outcome of a situation that God sees in the future, thus making God fallable and destroying one of the great precepts of the faith. Now, onto the cruel part.

Let's say that God knows the outcome of every human life that ever was, ever is, and ever will be. This means that some people are condemned to hell right off the bat, because of a very nasty human choice: suicide. Suicide is one of the unforgivable sins in Christianity, since you can't pray for repentence after you're dead. So, if God 'knew' that you were going to do this horrible act, then why even bother putting you through the misery that your life must have been, only to condemn you to hell with no chance of redenption? Sounds like something a truly cruel person would do.........

Well put Lachette!

nukewaste

Perhaps you were thinking suicide, but someones prayers for you changed the outcome?

Sometimes suicide is an aberration, a sickness in the mind, and perhaps falls under the same protection that innocent children are awarded....

Our ways, or even our thoughts, are so totally off the wall where God is concerned. He dwells in the Spiritual realm. We, unfortunately, have to keep at least one foot in this world.

nukewaste

I believe Jefferson was just non-denominational, but he appeared to always be seeking..he certainly wasn't indifferent. I'm non-denominational.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/jesus/jefferson.html

Lachatte

The problem comes in when we equate Prayer with requests or demands. God is not the tooth fairy! Prayer is not a "Wish List", nor should be treated as such.

But that is the message that is coming through from Bush, pepe. He prays for guidance from God. He "knows" that we will be successful in Iraq. He "knows" how to lead America. He has named an axis of evil. And many so-called religious Christian leaders have said that Islam is evil.

Lachatte

This is certainly the way the media has portrayed Bush, with their interpretations. And by the way, I think it's mans interpretations that have warped peoples views on Christianity from day one.

There is definitley nothing wrong with praying for guidance.

I just think because Bush has been much more vocal about his personal life, he's taking a beating from the public press. Without honest, unbiased reporting, you cannot get a reasonable take on who anyone is, or what they really stand for. Any public figure.

Concerning Islam, I think any person with any amount of intelligence realizes that it's the terrorists that are evil, certainly not all of Islam.

"This is certainly the way the media has portrayed Bush, with their interpretations. And by the way, I think it's mans interpretations that have warped peoples views on Christianity from day one."

yes Pepe it is mans interpretations thats why Jesus confronted the Pharisees because of their misuse of Gods word. They twisted and turned his word and used them aganist the people. In public they prayed and looked real good. So Bush has been trained through politics to put on a good religious show by praying in front of the public and having all the correct buzz words. Theres nothing wrong with praying, matter of fact God says go into your closet and pray and don't pray as the pharisees do.
Christanity is just a word labeled by man. it is no different Islam or any other religon. God said there would be one undivided church......christanity is divided more that any other religon with thousands of different denomanations that argue bicker and fight with one another over who has the right answers. Yes I believe one can pray and I also believe there is a difference between religon and a one on one relationship with God. You don't need a middle man in between, its a direct relationship between you and him.

I'm assuming here that you are not considering Christ as a middle man? Christ did say that no one comes to the Father but through Him John 14:5-7, but yes, Christianity has been distorted time and time again...

Some ministers explained how an Islamic, if "true" to their faith (i.e., fundamentalist) cannot escape being deemed 'evil' in the sense that their sacred writings advocate violence as a means to a preferred end.
(I'm not taking up sides on behalf of these Christian leaders, merely adding information for the grist.)

On balance, we all know too well how Christianity has periodicially been used by institutions and individuals throughout the course of history to control people and achieve national goals. No doubt, that's not God-pleasing either.

"I think if George would confess his sins, he would be better off."

Privately, for his spirituality's sake, I hope he does.
But just as beauty is as beauty does, so Christians are as Christians do, NOT just for what they say. Only God knows a person's heart, but Jesus gives his followers permission to "examine their fruits (deeds)" as a way of discerning whether a Christian is likely serious or merely masquerading in name only.

I would expect Codewarrior to mention if George were to confess publicly, he'd be washed up for good. And I'd be in total agreement with him on that.

"As voters, you are free to vote for whomever you please. Let the best [sic] man win!"

I have a problem with how the electorate isn't really given decent choices for candidates, and that goes to the very nature of corrupt politics controlling in one way or another just who does and doesn't get financial support for the primary slates.
When we the people decide between the major parties' choices, what type of persons are we having to pick from? On November 3, we get to choose between one of two members of an occultic-type fraternity. And neither candidate is likely to be a good choice for our nation or for personal freedoms....for a whole battery of reasons too numerous to delineate.

Perhaps, as Pepe would say, that's where prayer comes in (God can change things no matter how bleak they may seem). Okay, I can go along with that.

"November 3"?
No, November 2!

DemandRelevance

I know exactly how you feel about this voting thing. We go through this all the time up here (Canada) as well...

"I'm assuming here that you are not considering Christ as a middle man? Christ did say that no one comes to the Father but through Him John 14:5-7, but yes, Christianity has been distorted time and time again."

No I meant the modern day pharisees .....pastors ... as the middle men or filters .Some of them are leading many sheep astray with their own manipulating agendas. I had a pastor tell me one time he was responsible for my salvation...I soon left that church. They were needing more money.When you see Christ you see the father according to the bible. I prefer a direct connection without all the filters. I can pray anywhere anytime in any location....he will hear me.

Im starting to see the deception Jesus was talking about in the end times. He said the deception would be so bad you wouldn't be able to comprehend it The deception is in the church ,as we know it today. Think about it if you were the enemy where would you plant your seeds of deciet to get the biggest bang
for the buck? you got it... in the church.
Remember the scripture "the world will become the church and the church will become the world"

freeforall

Yes I see where you are coming from...there are some strange "men of God" out there. They will have to deal with the Lord in due course.

There are still good God-driven Full Gospel churches, that preach and teach Jesus, and I believe the Lord will lead one to the proper fellowship (the people are the Church) if that is what ones heart truly desires.

So much of our faith is just good old fashioned common sense. Example, the 10 Commandments. They have repercussion if not obeyed.

>>>> Remember the scripture "the world will become the church and the church will become the world">>>>> Could you please locate this for me, I can't seem to locate it.

But yes, in the end times, many will be deceived.

Pat Robertson backs up what Ron Suskind said: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/19/robertson.bush.iraq/index.html

"And I warned him about this war. I had deep misgivings about this war, deep misgivings. And I was trying to say, 'Mr. President, you had better prepare the American people for casualties.' "

Robertson said the president then told him, "Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties."

Robertson, the televangelist who sought the Republican presidential nomination in 1988, said he wishes Bush would admit to mistakes made.

"I mean, the Lord told me it was going to be A, a disaster, and B, messy," Robertson said. "I warned him about casualties."

The Lord told him?

Bush talks to the Lord. Robertson talks to the Lord. Who really talks to the Lord?

Arrgh!! God is Mister Rogers with a chronic lying disorder! Who cares?! Stop dragging your religion into all of our politics!!!!!! I don't go around hexing the candidates, and putting my faith into Goddess, (especially after I have far more proof that mine exists other than faith and blind trust), but I'm happy just the same! "God helps those who helps themselves." Come ON!!!!!!!!!!

Lachatte

You find the most interesting stories out there..actually I had seen a bit of this interview this morning...I really can't understand why a President going into war would say that there would not be any casualties....thats kind of nuts...I'm wondering if Pat Robertson needs his ears cleaned out That's not meant as a put down, just perhaps he didn't really quite hear it right. Would Bush joke about something like that? I would hope not!

We wern't there for the conversation between Bush and Robertson, and we certainly have no idea what the media chopped out of the interview, but that's another story....

All through history both sides of an argument, or war, proclaimed to have God on their side...again, it's mans interpretations that get themselves into trouble.

Hitler was considered a good Catholic. Hitlers take on Germany's future was a little different than what Churchill imagined for them.

Just remember, I'm an impartial observer when it comes to your election

>>>> Remember the scripture "the world will become the church and the church will become the world">>>>> Could you please locate this for me, I can't seem to locate it.

Pepe....Zechariah 14:20 "pots in the Lords House"

You have to know the studied word but here is the translation from the Bible commentary. The pots signify the members and the bowls are the secular

Commentary translation...."Belivers Bible translation" pg.1171

In that day everything will be holiness to the Lord". There will be no difference between Secular and and sacared"

Pepe, I have found out since my wife and I came out from under religon that God has another translation of the King James bible than the church does. Ask the Lord to show you his translation the next time you study.....you will be totaly amazed! who was King James anyway?
Men want to control in any fasion they can EVEN IN THE CHURCH!

The church will use the scripture aganist you for example: YOU MUST BE IN AN ASSEMBLY I know you have heard that one before. Jesus said "where ever 2 or more are gathered in my name I will hear them" When you and I discuss the Lord we are in an assembly......get my drift? Many churches are big businesses today. Pastors have become corrupted from the same things as the world. Every church I have attented the pastor has succumed to either divorce, financial problems, perscription drugs and it goes on and on. So the "pots are like the bowls" in Zechariah 14:20

Tell God to remove the veil and you will start to see the corruption, and know when it is being used for personnel gain.

freeforall

Hello again....While I found that most interesting what you were saying about Zechariah 14:20, I do believe this is only in reference to exactly what the scripture is saying..pots, as in "pots", or "cookware"...I see nowhere does it refer to a people or the world as such...this is where that "mans interpretation" thing comes in again...I found this site which explains the whole chapter failry well

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkezec14.htm

I actually have my NIV Bible that I have consulted with for over 20 odd years....it's ragged, but still legible..I never could get into the King James Bible...I need something written simply in language I understand

We must remember that our Pastors are human, and being such are quite capable of falling into the enemies hands, just as any of us are...

We as people just try to discern between who is properly teaching or not, (this is where that common sense comes in) and if their heart is in the right place...

We are all sinners, and yes, when we gather and discuss the Lord, we are usually on common ground, and I think that Scripture also implys that it's important for us to congregate together to uplift one an other...and also to keep us from straying from the truth, or blown around as the weeds out there....

No matter what the interpretation of scripture, the one thing to know for sure is that Christ desires a personal relationship with each and every one of us..John 3:16. This is His goal.

Like I said until the veil is removed you will see nothing in the scriptures. Remember when Jesus died on the cross the veil in the temple was torn. Hes not held captive behind the holy of hollies in the temple/church anymore. Man wants to complicate control and manipulate" Gods plan for your salvation is very simple "acknolwledge me in all things"
NOT MAN or a pastor. Man says you must jump through hoops and follow their rules and regulations for salvation. Gods plan is clear and simple. Example: when he told the thief on the cross next to him "today you will be with me in paradise" the thief was not bound by any rules, just a simple trust! very simple relationship. And your right pastors are only human looking for retirement like us. When it comes to faith and trust I trust him and only him....and I also have many torn old bibles which are now only old idols I used to cling to when I was playing church. My real knowledge lies in my heart which opens to the spirit of my Lord. Like I said God will show you the true meaning man will confuse. Try it you will see Gods meaning instead of the church/religon meaning. Other wise like you said about Zech 14 "its just cookwear "

Yes, I know and I agree with what you are saying about the Lord. Basically we are both saying the same thing. I just haven't had a bad experience with a bad Pastor as you seemed to have had.

My family and I did have a run in with a bad youth minister, and believe me, when that happened, he was removed from his job, not by anything that we or the church members did, but by his own foolishness, which the Lord revealed to us all. He left in disgrace.

I know the Lord reveals the things we need to be aware of in our own lives.

As for Zechariah 14...the whole chapter is based on the Lords return, at that time, all things, even that which had been used for other purposes, such as utensils and storage vessles, or pots formerly used for sacrifices, will now be redeemed, and sanctified,( just like us as Holy,and acceptable unto Him, as the Lord Himself is all Holy.

My wife and I were thrown out of a church for revealing the cult of Free masonry. We found out later the elder who started the church is a free mason.
When he found out we were studying cults and the ties between the masons he had us thrown out. That didn't keep us from the Lord though we started a home study group for awhile and then got chastized for that also. So yes we have had some bad experiences. God opened our eyes and blessed us after we left. What I have come to understand is that we are all sinners and He showed me openly how dirty I realy was the whole time we were playing church. I though I was so far above the people outside and that they were all going to hell. Jesus sacrificed outside the temple, thats where his jewels are waiting to be found. He spent time in peoples homes and confronted the Pharisees in the temple/church. Its easy to whitness in a building to the same people who believe as you, but go out in the streets or the world its quite different. I'll pray for you brother that God opens your eyes to the scriptures and you begin to see in the spirit the amazings truths. It will be like looking at 3D instead of one flat plain.
Amen

God bless you and family