Trey Parker and Matt Stone are featured on Salon.com. Here are the final replies on the interview:

Salon: Well, in parting, do you have a special message for all those undecided voters out there?

Stone: Stay home.

Parker: Don't vote!

Stone: And it's no big deal. If you don't want to vote, you don't have to. Fuck that vote or die shit. I hate that.

Tom says:
A special sour note is the reference to the letter that Sean Penn published in the Drudge report. I thought you'd like to see it. My own reaction is, these South Park guys are pigs and are well-deserving of never working again. Avoid this movie, folks, that's my advice. Who cares about marionettes, anyway.


XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX FRI OCT 8, 2004 19:11:11 ET XXXXX

SEAN PENN RIPS 'TEAM AMERICA' CREATORS IN ANGRY MEMO

**Exclusive**

October 6, 2004

To Trey Parker and Matt Stone,

I remember a cordial hello when you guys were beginning to be famous guys around Hollywood at some party. I remember several times getting a few giggles out of your humor. I remember not being bothered as you traded on my name among others to appear witty, above it all, and likeable to your crowd. I never mind being of service, in satire and silliness.

I do mind when anybody who doesn't have a child, doesn't have a child at war, or isn't or won't be in harm's way themselves, is encouraging that there's "no shame in not voting" "if you don't know what you're talking about" (Mr. Stone) without mentioning the shame of not knowing what your talking about, and encouraging people to know. You guys are talented young guys but alas, primarily young guys. It's all well to joke about me or whomever you choose. Not so well, to encourage irresponsibility that will ultimately lead to the disembowelment, mutilation, exploitation, and death of innocent people throughout the world. The vote matters to them. No one's ignorance, indcluding a couple of hip cross-dressers, is an excuse.

All best, and a sincere fuck you,

Sean Penn

P.S. Take this as a personal invitation from me to you (you can ask Dennis Miller along for the ride as well) to escort you on a trip, which I took last Christmas. We'll fly to Amman, Jordan and I'll ride with you in a (?) 12 hours through the Sunni Triangle into Fallujah and Baghdad and I'll show you around. When we return, make all the fun you want.

Wow. What a jerkoff.

While I agree voting is crucial, I also agree that Matt and Trey have a point. To hell with that Vote or Die bullcrap. If people don't want to, they don't want to.

Being forceful is stupid, period.

"I do mind when anybody who doesn't have a child, doesn't have a child at war, or isn't or won't be in harm's way themselves, is encouraging that there's "no shame in not voting" "

that is YOUR OPINION good sir Penn.

you have no right pushing values off on others.

Personally, i think our contitution, along with requiring a majority of electoral votes, should require a majority of the population be moved to vote for an official to be considered "elected".

this does not mean people should be forced to vote, what it does mean is there should be a set of candidates people actually WANT to vote for in order for any of them to be elected, including the incumbent. otherwsie.. we'll just go without the annoyance of a government for a few years.. or have some other provision in which we "seek" our proper leader through some appropriate means.

Its a lot more fitting than just having less than 20% of the population vote in someone like GW.

grr.. stupid s key.. "constitution"

What a dumb ass, vote or die for what? Your own career wash up interests? Please, its the same candidate. Lol, Hollywood so far from the real world as usual.

You guys know what, its your choice, and the South Park guys are right, dems are just as corporate as reps, this is about personal interests, and the South Park creators have a right to their opinion. Despite what some ignorant, over privileged recovering asshole has to say.

As does Sean, and everyone else. You are also free to disagree with him. But Tom's right--I won't support them anymore, and it's also my right not to. I can just do it in a civilized way, see, guys?

I agree with andy rooney... some people just shouldn't vote...I'd rather have the option not to vote than to have it be compulsory

url please?

In other news, Riaa v Verizon case, lower verdict stands. Sup Ct denied writ.

The major problem is... it's not a "Vote for who you think should be president" like a democracy should be, it's a "Here's your two candidates that are slinging more mud then monkeys fling poop, vote for one or else you're not an American". I will say that I am 21 and I have not registered to vote SPECIFICALLY because in the past two elections I absolutely have no compassion or desire to ever see Bush, Gore, or Kerry in politics, let alone as president.

There's a big difference between someone choosing not to vote and people just not caring. When you choose not to vote it's that you have no confidence in their leadership, and I'm certain an assload of people don't have any confidence in either Bush or Kerry.

I applaud the creators of South Park because they can present views to the other side of the coin usually in a manner so simple that teenagers probably understand it more then the 50+ year old farts with a one-track mind that are tearing this country down instead of helping it progress.

Vote or don't vote. It is up to the person. Drive or don't drive. Smoke or don't smoke. Listen, its up to people to choose what they want to do. Mr. Penn, the only arguement you have is that people will complain about the President who didn't even vote to change him/her. I can understand that you shouldn't talk about the president and how he's screwing up if you didn't even vote, but aside from that. People have their own choice, its what this country was founded on. Man, what a moron.
This is why I don't understand that people care what showbiz people think about politics. I mean, I like Edward Norton, but I don't care who he thinks the next pres should be. I only care who I think the next pres should be. Anyone else agree?

If you truly don't care who wins on November 2nd than I see no harm in not voting. In fact, low voter turnout would be a sign of general distaste for both parties.

This you have to vote agenda is complete bullshit. People assume that those who don't vote are simply lazy. There is a large faction of people who don't vote as a political statement. I happen to think voting for someone like Badnarik is a better choice but essentially its the same result.

And to the person who posted this article (Tom). Your little sour note was uncalled for and really just a childish expression of your own ignorance. Its something I'd expect from the religous right, not here.

sean penn is a faggot... Bush or Kerry?.. either one you vote for will keep the war going... both admittedly so... i wonder which canidate he's pluggin for?..

In music/RIAA/important news, the Supreme Court has decided to not even listen to the RIAA's case.

Tom:

All I can say after reading this article and Sean Penn's letter, I will definitely be first in line to see the movie. At least the makers avoid making any claims about this being the truth unlike the Moore propaganda piece.

But is is good to see that the Supreme Court has decided to not listen to RIAA's case. Maybe there is some sanity in the courts after all.

You know I read this site enough to be called a regular user and I find it ironic for people who are so concerned about personal freedom and personal integrity to have such a lax view of what it means to vote.

I am saying up front that this is my opinion.

It is very disconcerting to read that most of the people here view voting with such apathy and can also identify with the aforementioned lame ( the south park creators) commentary.

Granted, everyone here is entitled to their opinion as well as their actions. However "my opinion" is, if you do not vote you are saying; I am ok with the state this country is in, I am ok that people are going to Iraq defending this country for “YOU” and being killed & maimed, I am ok that our country is in historic debt, I am ok that personal freedoms are being eroded, I am ok that environmental laws are being systematically gutted and finally I am ok that our country is perceived negatively abroad. Of course most people here will obviously say, its my choice, its my prerogative. Well guess what kids, it is. However don't let me here you whine and cry that the RIAA and the MPAA and any other "Jackbooted organization" is limiting your personal freedoms. Because you are letting them by not voting!!!!

One other things bothers me, I am not a 50+ year old fart with a one-track mind either. I am 30+ years old and work in the Video Game industry. I served 6 years in the Army as a Soldier and as a Bradley Tank driver. I know what it means to have honor and respect for our country. I am also concerned about personal freedoms. This kind of commentary shows the kind of thinking that makes people who are older discount what you have to say and/or think.

If you truly believe in your right to think independently, to act independently, and to express your thoughts independently, you have no choice but to vote.

Michael

Whatta maroon to write such a letter. Who you vote for, if you vote, is your choice. No matter who the next citizen feels is right for the office, that is his feeling and not the next citizens choice.

For the most part, tooting the horn of a candidate doesn't guarentee another will be convinced. In fact, the more passionate and vocal a person is about his choice is likely to drive a prospective voter from his stance.

acranum, I don't agree with your statement that if you don't vote you are agreeing that the country is fine. The silent majorty is saying they don't like either candidate. That neither one is ok in their opinion for the office. But seeing as there is no other valid candidate to pick from, they choose none of the above.

Much of what you are seeing in the percentages is just that. The "for the people, by the people" has been left out of politics and most are not happy with what they see. Echoing that statement of being left out of politics is the present way of doing business in lobbying today. Ever send your congress critter a letter saying you don't agree with this or that bill coming up and asking for his support? Chances are good you will get the same answer that many here have recieved. A form letter that in no way states the stance of the office holder you are writing, doesn't address your issue, and talks at you instead of about the issue that concerns you.

If Joe Q Citizen can't communicate with his representive his wishes and have them veiwed then he isn't represented and we have taxation without representation. That sure looks like the case today. Be a good citizen, echo the party line, pay your taxes, and shut up. No wonder very few are voting in elections now a days. It is a sign of dissaproval and our officals don't get it.

btw Moron is what you were looking for right....

I did say what I wrote is my opinion. As far as your silent majority... Silent is exactly what is wrong here. There are other canidates to vote for besides the Dem/Repub's There is the Libertarians, the Green Party and Ralph Nader. Most people should be able to find a canadate that they can vote for.

So sorry, your Silent Majority aurgument is a big cop-out.

Whether we like it or not we have this system within which to work. If you want to effect change this is what we have. If not then we can only subscibe to your notion of apathy.

The only other choice is eventual civil chaos. If that is your aurgument it is a poor choice.

Michael

Why should we vote? What are our choices?? Bush or Kerry??? The lesser of two evils????

Again, maybe people in America wouldn't have such a piss poor attitude about the right to vote if voting truly meant something in this country. The way the Democratic and Republican parties run roughshod over anybody else, it's little wonder people don't want to vote.

They don't want to because they are tired of the same ol' dance. They are tired of the same ol' money bought looking out only for their own interests or the interest of their parties choices presented to them every election. How else can you explain how an ogre like Orin Hatch gets elected year after year?

Up yours, Sean Fonda.
Vote or don't vote, it's your choice.
But if you choose not to vote, don't tell me how pissed off you are about who's in office or what law got passed. You made your choice, shut the f**k up.

I think the majority of nonvoters don't vote because they are selfish and egotistical.

But here's an empirical study:
http://www.medill.northwestern.edu/inside/2001/nonvoters-report.html

Who stayed home on Election Day 2000, and what could be done to lure these people -- about 49 percent of the voting-age population -- back to the polls?


The Medill News Service in Washington, D.C., has completed its final report on these "No-Shows," based on surveys of 1,053 nonvoters and 859 voters as well as focus group meetings with 24 of the nonvoters.

Led by Associate Professor Jack Doppelt and Professor Ellen Shearer, co-director of Medill's Washington Program, students wrote a series of stories based on the 2000 poll that was distributed in March to more than 100 daily newspapers and a dozen television stations nationwide.

In an earlier 1996 survey, the Medill News Service had categorized nonvoters as Doers, Unpluggeds, Irritables, Don't Knows and Alienateds. In 2000, the surveys turned up evidence of Now-and-Then Voters -- people who are neither regular voters nor chronic nonvoters -- who represent appoximately one-third of the population.

The surveys and the focus groups that followed also showed that:

Perceptions about political leaders are more central to the nonvoting phenomenon than are procedural barriers;


Nonvoters view voting as a choice, not a civic duty;


Politicians are seen as too packaged and too controlled by handlers, and too far removed from people's daily lives;

Political news is viewed as biased both ideologically and in terms of representing establishment viewpoints.

Sean Penn is mad because they blew his ass up in the movie...

Carla60626,

Thanks for showing some support to the old fashioned notion that, WE SHOULD ALL PONY UP SOME RESPONSIBILITY and vote.

You know people this might sound trite to you but you have the ability to say what you want when you want because a lot of people have fought and died, are fighting and dying so you have that right!

The least you can do is participate instead of uttering all these cop-out lines like "My vote does not count", "It's my choice not to vote", or my favorite "not voting is a politcal statement". Yeah it is a statement, a statement of a arrogant self-centered person who won't take minute from their so very important life to help you fellow man!

I know this is going to cause a flamestorm but so be it.

I have a stand on this and I think it is time for other people to step up and take some responsibility.

Michael

To Sean Penn: Do I tell you how to act? Then don't tell me how to use my right to vote.

Actually, a bigger problem than people not caring enough to vote in the election is people not caring enough during the candidate selection process to make sure we actually have candidates from the major parties who represent the people and not the monied interests.

People need to get concerned two years before the election. Being really concerned on Nov 2 is not bad, but it is too late to get concerned. I wish just once there would be a candidate I was HAPPY to vote for. Instead of resigned about voting for him.

Tom, Michael, Carla--right on. It is not voting that gets this country into this kind of trouble to start with. Not voting in retaliation for some slight or because you are just pissed at the system makes you--a zero. A no-show. Unimportant. You really think those big guys are going to go,"Oh, no--look how many people didn't vote! We better offer them something better next time!" Really, now, come on. All that they care about is how many for George, and how many for John. So if you try to use the excuse that you're just so insulted by Sean Penn's desire to end the war, then don't vote. Stupid voters can do a lot of damage, too. If you do vote, vote for the right reasons, whatever they may be to you. I do have to wonder, though, why you seem to take this so personally.

A Bradley Tank Driver? Golly, when I was in the Bradley was still only an armored personnel carrier. The M1 Abrams was a tank. Glad to hear the little guy graduated.

But that is the beauty of the United States versus another country like Cuba, USSR, or Sadaam's Iraq. In each of those countries you had 90-100% of the population voting. Of course, if you didn't vote, then you got a visit from the friendly secret police to explain your reasons for not voting. Then, if you didn't vote for the approved candidate, you might not live to regret it.

At least here, you have the right to not vote and I am happy to have that right should I choose. To be honest, I exercised the right to not vote during the Clinton/Dole contest. At that time, I believed that neither candidate should be in the White House.

The election before that, I wrote in John Gotti for president and Baby Face Nelson for vice. I figured if I was going to vote for a crook, it might as well be for a real crook.

This year, I'm choosing to vote for the candidate who I honestly believe to be the best person to lead this country. Someone, I could trust as commander in chief since I hold a reserve commission in the USAF.

Actually, I was under the impression the the M-113 was the armored personnel carrier, the M-2 Bradley, an infantry fighting vehicle, and the M-1 Abrams, a main battle tank.

If you use a Bradley like a tank, then you are begging to be taken out by anti-tank weapons that ignore it's thin armor.

LOL, anti-tank weapons ignore EVERYTHING's thin armor. Glad you take a ribbin' and keep on tickin'.

Does it matter that I drove a Bradley or a M1?
Is this meant as a slight that I am somehow lesser for having driven it vs a M1 abrams? Forgive me, I missspoke, the Bradley is exactly what Mike2212 described it as. This is also entirely not the point.

I am not telling anyone how, or who to vote for. What I am saying is vote for someone YOU believe will make difference in our country!!!!

Not voting is saying YOU DO NOT CARE period!!!!

As ShadowMom says "Stupid voters can do a lot of damage, too."

So if your stupid :>) Don't Vote.

I somehow think that no one here is going to jump on the Stupid bandwagon right???

Michael

I was pokin' ya in the ribs, guy. I drove an M113. I was trained to drive a Bradley but you know the ARMY, train for one job do another.

The use of the term "maroon" comes from a cartoon character and was exactly what I intended to use. It seemed to me to hit the right note for this particular article.

The point of my post, that citizens weren't voting because of disenchantment with the political choices is again brought out by the post of carla60626, where the poll refers to:

"...Perceptions about political leaders are more central to the nonvoting phenomenon than are procedural barriers..."

and again with:

"...Politicians are seen as too packaged and too controlled by handlers, and too far removed from people's daily lives..."

However, I am in full agreement that folks should get out and vote.

Like a few that have posted in this comment section, I too have served my country in the military. I was drafted Oct. 19, 1969 but served my full term actively, not just the two years. While that and a dollar might get me a beer, it certainly feels like after that time served we certainly have the right to voice our opinions.

acranum: I was also not taking a shot at you. However, I do notice that a lot of civilians look at a vehicle, see a turret, tracks and call it a tank. Anybody remember the new report that said the Bradley was a piece of junk because somebody fired a tank cannon at it and the shot went through it, destroying the vehicle? I seem to recall that a 105mm training round hitting the side would have no trouble putting a hole in it. In fact, I would have been shocked if it had bounced off.

Jefrystube: I still remember that M-1A1 in Desert Storm that took a 125mm APFSDS round from 500 yards without taking any damage. The America crew fired through the sand berm, the T-72 had backed into and sent the turret flying in the air.

Also, I'd rather be in a Bradley than a BMP any day of the week. Something about having fuel tanks in the back doors.

Sean Penn is a fucking idiot.

Trey Parker and Matt Stone do an excellent job of making weekly social commentary through South Park.

"The South Park guys are right..."

As always. In general, the people who don't like them don't even watch much of their show. They just like to bitch.

Sean Penn has always been a loudmouth jerk (sorry for insulting a celeberty, Carla. I know you worship their opinions and all..)

Now, I'm voting myself. I know who I'm voting for. I pay attention to this stuff. And again, not some old fart, I'm only 20.

I just want to add though, if someone DISAGREES with both candidates... why the fuck even vote? What if one is already registered to vote? Closer and closer to the polls, neither candidates seem right with Jon Votey. What's he going to do? Go to the polls, close his eyes, and randomly pick?! Fuck, I HOPE that's not what you want.

Oh wow, there's 3 other parties. Yeah fucking right. You and everyone else knows those parties will never fucking win. Why? They are the ones NO ONE pays attention to. So quit trying to give excuses. Why vote for those 3 when you damn well know it's a lost cause?

And remember, people faught for giving the citizens their freedom and their rights. It's their right to vote. It's ALSO their right to NOT vote because they didn't agree with either party. What the fuck can one do if nothing on those ballots will HELP you out?

I commend those who vote. Because that's the right thing to do. I also commend those who DON'T vote and choose not to because they don't agree with anything either party has. Why do I commend them? FUCK, because I can, and they can.

People need to shut up. Vote or Die is bullshit. It should be more like let's find the right fucking honest candidate out there then let's ALL fucking vote for his or her ass OR DIE.

"btw Moron is what you were looking for right...."

"The use of the term "maroon" comes from a cartoon character and was exactly what I intended to use."

Bugs Bunny called his enemies maroons because when the cartoons were originally made, the word "moron" wasn't allowed on the air. Same with the way he says imbecile. There's probably more.

"Oh wow, there's 3 other parties. Yeah fucking right. You and everyone else knows those parties will never fucking win. Why? They are the ones NO ONE pays attention to. So quit trying to give excuses. Why vote for those 3 when you damn well know it's a lost cause?"

I vote for other parties because I like the people. Screw you for saying that it's a waste. I'm not going to change my opinion just to appease the people who vote strictly to get someone out of the White House. That's just wrong.

If everyone voted for who they really wanted to vote for, Nader would be the president. They just don't vote for himbecause they think there's no chance. Well, if everyone stuck to their core beliefs instead of focusing on some inane reasoning, the other parties would have a chance at winning.

It's just this way of thinking that causes people to fade into the brainwashed masses...

The lesser of two evils is still evil. And if you keep voting for evil (or if you don't vote at all) you are going to keep getting evil. So even though the election will come down to Bush or Kerry winning, consider voting for Badnarik, Peroutka, Cobb, or Nader and help their parties grow. Not in 2004, but some day (two of the four parties have mentioned 2012) one of these parties will have a shot at winning. If anything, voting for one of these parties tells Bush and Kerry "I don't like either one of you". And that has to be more satisfying than not saying anything at all.

http://www.nysun.com/article/2962 Badnarik and Cobb deserve credit for trying.

To borrow from the South Park movie "Sean Penn is a bitch, he's the biggest bitch in the whole wide world".

www.badnarik.org www.peroutka2004.com www.votecobb.org www.votenader.org

Well said, undeath.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." --Rush (not Limbaugh)

CodeWarrior/Ziemann in '04!

I saw the South Park guys on GMA this morning. They said that their remarks were taken out of context. "In a recent Rolling Stone magazine article, Stone mocked hip-hop mogul P. Diddy's "Vote or Die" registration campaign, saying he didn't think "uninformed" people should be encouraged to go to the polls. "
Although I couldn't find an an exact quote, I think they said that Americans should get "informed or die".

Well I am glad that this board is willing to talk about the issues. BTW undeath, there are many more than 3 other parties. You state, "why vote for them because they will never have a chance", your right, You just caused them to not make it because of your present stance. People, if everyone voted all 200+ million, things would change. However that never seems to come to fruition. Our country is vast and we all are independent minds. It is very hard to have a common discourse and be able to effect change.

Why is it that for the masses TV ads work! the more people you can effect at the same time the more effective you will be. I think that most people on this board proably are effected by the TV more than any other medium.

My stance is, and will always be; As a citizen of this nation you are obligated, you have a responsibility to fufill to do your part in making our country better. I know that as a young person some people scoff at that notion. But I will tell you from experience, as you get older you will appreciate what I am saying. So go ahead and make your choice or don't. Hopefully as you travel in your journey that is life, you will see what I and other people are saying has intrinsic value to everyone. A collective effort is what makes change.

Michael

sherm, why do you distort my statements? I don't worship celebrities. I do think they are entitled to state their opinions and use their sphere of influence, if any, instead of, as you put it, just shut up and play (or act, etc.).

Artistic commentary on social injustice, including songs and novels, (I'm thinking of Upton Sinclair's The Jungle) have often influenced social change.

My personal opinion is that your opinions are annoying.

I distorted your statements? Where?

My personal opinion is that you're an idiot.

I guess we're even.

"Sean Penn has always been a loudmouth jerk (sorry for insulting a celeberty, Carla. I know you worship their opinions and all..)"

I do not worship celebrity opinions and never said I did. It is a distorted statement and your annoying opinion.

I'm an idiot? So, should I pick, it takes one to know one, or I'm rubber, you're glue, or sticks and stones....

We're even? LOL

This is for those on this board who feel it is a duty to flame people for having a rational conversation. Without naming names, we as I have stated many times already are all entitled to our opinions. So if you start calling people names or denigrating them... Are you all following this now... you are making yourself less likely to be listened to with any depth or seriousness.

Most people here are concerned about the state of our counties eroding freedoms, a core value system in our way of life. So please don't cheapin the discussions by name calling and character assasinations.

Michael

"Why vote for those 3 when you damn well know it's a lost cause?"

The only lost cause is people who think this way. This is another form or saying "I have to vote this way because I want my vote to count". The only way your vote doesn't count is if you don't vote.

It's YOUR vote, vote for who you believe in the most. Bring up some info on all of the candidates that are on the ballot. Figure out which one is more into the things that you are concerned with.

If we just sit on our asses and watch what's on the news we will never see everything, everyone or even the truth. Get up and look it up for yourselves.

That would be fine sentiment any other election year. But this time it matters more that this president is not reelected.

Don't waste your vote.

Here is a link of who is on the ballot in each State.
http://www.politics1.com/p2004-ballots.htm

However, only 6 candidates are on enough state ballots to actually get enough electoral votes to win the election. (Bush, Kerry, Peroutka, Badnarik, Cobb, and Nader).

Here is how the electoral college would go based on current polling.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
It will only take one percent of the vote in several states to swing the election one way or another. Ideally, Bush and Kerry will each lose at least one state by the margin of third party voting and get the wake up call.

If only people who were knowledgable on all Candidates that were running on their state's ballot were able to vote, then things would indeed be more interesting.

Let's go with "It takes one to know one" because that way you won't have actually refuted anything. You'll just be calling me names back, which is something I know you enjoy.

"I do not worship celebrity opinions and never said I did. It is a distorted statement and your annoying opinion."

I inferred it from the fact that you got all pissed off because I insulted celeberties loudmouthing their opinions in general. There's a difference (but do you understand what it is?)


Wet1 almost convinced me to vote for another party. It is true that if everyone voted for who they wanted, then Nader would probably be president.

Shermie,

The best way to stop naming calling flame wars is to not participate in it to begin with.

Next,
Vote for who you want to vote for. Maybe it will make a difference. Thats All I ever was getting at anyway.

Michael

Shmoo...you da man!

BTW, the government assumes it has the right to do things via "consent of the governed"...they never got my consent, and if they send me an email...I would tell them in no uncertain terms that this human DOES NOT consent to be governed.

Schmoo and Carla!! Over 100 Million did not vote last presidential election, and there was an election after that, in 2002, and any number of local elections as well.. so don't vote, be discusted.. then complain that the RIAA has too much power, Scream names at the Patriot Act. Be busted up 'cause school costs too damn much.. keep on suckin on a teet that you ain't fed. And don't be wailin because your cynical, lazy ass is in a foreign country dodgin' bullets in a fight YOU didn't vote for.. or ain't ya heard.. freedom ain't free.

That when ever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it it the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new governments.. where does this statement come from, you flame-throwin, weak-assed, couch-crunchin, non-votin- ah, well, what's the point.. some folks just want somthin' for nuthin', I guess. I am counting to 10 and calming down, now.

I know. An even better way is not to start them. And to address that issue, I direct you toward someone else. I'm not mad or anything, so I wouldn't really call it "flaming."

You see, the problem with this system of election is that your always given a limited choice on who you have to vote for.

You have a two party system and any independant candidates are always ignored and there is a barrier for them for even racing for president.

So you have to choose between Jackass one and Jackass two. You could vote for candidate three but they are goign to lose anyway. So, you might as well not vote at all if you were goign for candidate three because either jackass one or jackass two will win.

So, you have tyhe right to not vote. Not voting is a vote in itself. You have the right to not be forced between two people youd care less if they win. Also, if you vote for a candidate that screws hings up you mgith feel screwed.

I'll chime in here on an already thoroughly discussed thread,

Only you as a citizen of The United States of America, have the power. If you do not get involved, you give your power away to others. The less people involved, the more power your government will have over you.

Not voting and not getting involved is equal to relinquishing your power to others who are not going to be making decisions in your best interest.

Not happy with the presidential candidates? Me either. But that is not the only vote on your ballot.

There are most likely initiatives or referendums to vote for.

There are your 2 US Senators, and your US representative to vote for. Those people make decisions that directly affect all of our lives.

Then there are the State races, with State Congresscritters, Secretaries of State, State Assembly members, etc...

Your political power is too important to give away.

Don't *just* vote, get involved! Not happy with your response to your nice letter you sent your Rep? Me either, so get out and make your 1 voice, 1000 voices instead. This is how democracy works, take advantage of it, otherwise, it will take advantage of you!

~goingnova

goingnova... freedom ain't free...

I was only reffering to presidential elections. You should definitely vote locally. Direct democracy is the only true democracy. It dosn't work on a large scale however and thats why we have a republic. What im getting at is everyone who has been elected in our goverment has always had a connection to the aristrocratic lineage of Europe. So, in essence we have no power politically on a national scale. Those with the most money win politically and those people who have had the most money are blue blooded. There are people who everyoen could hope win an election like ross perot or ralph nader. Nader had the right ideas...Ross perot had the money but most the country doesnt even listen to the issues anymore; most the country votes either democrat or republican and regardless of where a politician stands they'll vote that way.

Are you trying to say Dubya is blue-blooded? Does that mean he has a pedigree and papers and everything? 'Cause that WOULD be exciting, wouldn't it? Laura could always read the papers to him at bedtime.

ShadowMom: D-note for you.