The people who bring you Lamar Smith and Orrin Hatch are spreading fearmongering through digital mail now.

"GOP Scare Tactic: Libs Will Ban Bibles
By WILL LESTER
Sep 18, 2004, 06:38

Campaign mail with a return address of the Republican National Committee warns West Virginia voters that the Bible will be prohibited and men will marry men if liberals win in November.
The literature shows a Bible with the word "BANNED" across it and a photo of a man, on his knees, placing a ring on the hand of another man with the word "ALLOWED." The mailing tells West Virginians to "vote Republican to protect our families" and defeat the "liberal agenda."

Republican National Committee Chairman Ed Gillespie said Friday that he wasn't aware of the mailing, but said it could be the work of the RNC. "It wouldn't surprise me if we were mailing voters on the issue of same-sex marriage," Gillespie said."

Source :
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_5278.shtml
=========SNIP=====================
Is this email trying to "INDUCE" me to vote for Bush?

I would demand Ed Gillespie to cite in which speech, Kerry vowed that, if he were elected, the Bible would be banned.

I don't think this is as much of a scare tactic as it should be, or could be....there will come a day, and we see it happening all around us, that Christians will be persecuted, and it will get worse, to the point that Christians will have to go underground..not for their own self-serving goals, but to help others in need.
Gay marriage is also becoming an all too common event all around us.

I believe what this article is really pointing out is that this is a way that these things COULD come about.

I just hope all the Log Cabin Republicans are really proud of their party affiliations right now.

I would say this...I'm a Christian in my belief, but also believe in philosophical Taoism and Huna, and if any gov wants to persecute me for it, I won't draw little secret fishes, but will be open in my beliefs.

You have a current president that allegedly is a member of the Bohemian Grove club, and during the rituals there, worships the ancient pagan God Molech.

As far as gay marriage, it does not in ANY way diminish the commitment and relationship I have with my wife, and honestly, I would rather see two gay men married in a monogamous relationship than have them in bath houses having anonymous unprotected sex.

There are good people that are gay as well as straight (most believe one of my personal heroes, Leonardo Da Vinci was gay, as was Aristotle and Plato).

What this is all about is the Repubs fearmongering and finding an "enemy minority" they can use as a rallying point for likeminded idiots.

Hitler likewise targeted gays and Jews (the latter as being enemies of Christians). The ultimate enemy of truth, justice, and the American Way, are people who would stir up prejudices and divide us for the sake of molding voting blocks on single issues.

The "we're all in this together against the Moslems, the gays, the "pirates",
or the "liberated women" " crap, nauseates me. It shows a party that has no real solutions to real problems. They are saprophytes who live and thrive among the detritus of dead issues, or straw men they create out of whole cloth.

And HERE is where we get into an EXTREMELY dangerous area...
Fundamentalist Christian sects, like the one that John "Let the Eagle Soar" Ashcroft, believes in, teach that members of all other churches and beliefs like Jews, Catholics, and yes, the LDS (Latter Day Saints, i.e. Mormons like Orrin Hatch) are not only WRONG, but headed straight to hell. And, this anti-gay agenda, is in great part, born from fundamentalist Christian beliefs (e.g. saying its a shame for two men to "lie together" as per the Bible).

This type of religious intolerance, in my opinion, could subtly creep into a government run by religious Christian fundamentalists. Fundamentalists in general, be they Moslem or Christian, are intolerant, and many even give speeches saying that their followers should be proud of being intolerant, that intolerance is equal to condoning sin.

If ANY group wants to limit free speech and do some book burning and investigate what people read at libraries, it's the Stormtroopers of the Bush Reich.

I just knew that this would rattle your chains

Most of what you are saying is true....it matters little to me if Bush is President, or Kerry, or Mickey Mouse.... What I'm referring to here is that there are certain things that are going to happen in this world, to this world....and certain circumstances will come together to make these things happen.

My interest is watching how God is fulfilling His Word.

I agree with you Pepe!

~pepe~

btw...Richard Armitage (who looks a lot like the actor Tor Johnson who starred as a zombie in the movie PLAN 9 FROM OUTER SPACE) says that the rebels are trying to unseat Bush in the coming election. For more pictures of Armitage and his likeness to Tor, and the story...check today's blog at
http://codewarriorz.blogspot.com

I strongly believe that everyone should be free to practice the religion he or she likes. Freedom of faith, or absence of faith is a staple of individual freedom.

I also believe that is should stay a personal matter. Religion doesn't belong to the public life and I hate the tendency that ALL religious leaders have to think they need to show the light to EVERYONE and that they should guide the people, just not their church.

In respect to this, this country is especially irritating. As much as I don't want to leave by the Charia, I don't want to leave by any Jewish or Christian Holy Book (which by the way would be at least as brutal if they were applied to the letter... burning... stoning... you name it). I would really appreciate if "belivers" would pack their bible and leave me alone.

I don't go to their Sunday mass to tell them how they should behave. I don't force them to have sex before being married. I don't force them to sodomize each other. I don't force them to eat pork if they don't want to.

So I would appreciate if they were stoping to try making everyone live the way they leave their own existence.

I would also appreciate if the public life of the nation was not a battleground for all sort of religious ideas trying to rule the others. I believe that the only way we can live together is by tuning it down a little when if comes to politics and public life.

If this is really what the RNC is putting out, it is not as farfetched as you presume. Other countries have instituted laws already which make it rather dicey for preachers to preach certain parts of the Bible -- especially over the airwaves. (And yes, that would include those parts which clearly identify homosexual acts as something opposed to the will of the Creator.) So you are right to be concerned about your freedoms. But Christians are equally justified to be concerned about their own freedom of speech.

I don't hate or fear homosexuals, but if they have a right to tell us how great it is (the love that dared not speak its name is now the love that will not shut up about it), then Christians have a right to say that it is wrong, explain why it is wrong, and offer people a better way through Jesus Christ. However, there are some who consider the very expression of a different opinion to be "hate speech" -- even when it is actually motivated by love.

Two men that I knew as a teen are now "out of the closet," and the toll that the lifestyle has taken on them is quite visible. I think one is heading toward AIDS, but that is only speculation, based on the pharmaceutical drugs he's taking. If gays could marry, would they be less promiscuous and therefore physically healthier? This has yet to be shown. There is nothing to prevent homosexuals from making commitments to one another now -- it just wouldn't be legally binding. Given that adultery in the heterosexual world is so common, it is clear that marriage is not so much a legal institution as a state of mind!

Still, Bible-believing Christians must oppose gay marriage by every means available to them. One man's wedge issue is another man's moral imperative. It is not hatred or fear to want to help another human being avoid the self-evident consequences of certain biblically prohibited behaviors.

For a sympathetic, scientifically literate, nuanced, yet biblically accurate view of the subject of homosexuality, check out the book Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth, by Jeffrey Satinover, M.D., a psychiatrist by training and Jew by descent and religion. Satinover is an amazing guy -- he used to be President of the C.G. Jung Foundation. He corresponded with Richard Feynman as a child math-physics prodigy. His latest book is about how the operation of the human brain may depend on certain structures in the neuron that can detect and amplify quantum uncertainties at the subatomic level -- i.e the brain may have some attributes of a quantum computer. He's no lowbrow religious nut. There is sublime truth in this book if a person does not already have eyes irrevocably closed to the truth.

Richard Armitage also looks uncomfortably close to Uncle Fester of the Addams family too!
http://www.atmos.albany.edu/facstaff/vollaro/fester01-sm.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38066000/jpg/_38066856_rumsfeld_armitage_ap150.jpg

So...I guess it's all out war on the black, poverty stricken Gay, Moslem Jews....they're to blame for it all..."Off with their heads said the Red Queen" or was that President Queeg who said that?

I would MUCH rather have two gay married Moslems living next door to me, than a nut like Orrin Hatch, King George the Cowardly, or John "Let the Eagle Soar/ Bring out the Snakes so I can Handle them" Ashcroft!

"However, there are some who consider the very expression of a different opinion to be "hate speech" -- even when it is actually motivated by love. "


When a Christian tells me that if I dont get rid of my boyfriend for some girl I will burn forever and calls me a sinner, then yeah, thats hate speech. How would you like it if Millions of nurotic religious homosexuals were thr majority and were ;loving you' by telling you in no uncertain terms, over and over again, that if you dont divorce your wife and fuck guys that you'll burn forever and be a sinner?

I doubt many of us have much confidence in what a person (Christian or non-Christian, heterosexual or homosexual) says to another person. The real issue should be IF there is a Creator God and IF He left Word on what His will is.

. . . and, given that, then IF we choose to follow it or not.

It shouldnt be the issue for the precise reason of the inability to ever prove if it is true.

P.S. The libertarian inclination within me points to the Constitution which gives us freedom of, as well as freedom from, religion.
And our government had better be in tune with that.

The U.S. is no longer a country tolorant of christians, and the left is primarily responsible (that and George W. being a religious nazi).

"It shouldn't be the issue for the precise reason of the inability to ever prove if it is true."

Logic also would point to the inability to disprove it, either, lordperrin, and for that reason it is a matter of choosing to have faith or not -- a personal preference which is upheld by the Constitution.

One may say something isn't relevant if that something cannot be proven OR disproven -- but saying so doesn't change the fact that it can still be a faith issue.

OK lets take a look at the BIG PICTURE, the history of The Myth of Separation of Church and State...

Anytime religion is mentioned within the confines of government today people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God. Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights. Jefferson wrote:

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. (1)

The reason Jefferson choose the expression "separation of church and state" was because he was addressing a Baptist congregation; a denomination of which he was not a member. Jefferson wanted to remove all fears that the state would make dictates to the church. He was establishing common ground with the Baptists by borrowing the words of Roger Williams, one of the Baptist's own prominent preachers. Williams had said:

When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day. And that there fore if He will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world...(2)

The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values.

The American people knew what would happen if the State established the Church like in England. Even though it was not recent history to them, they knew that England went so far as forbidding worship in private homes and sponsoring all church activities and keeping people under strict dictates. They were forced to go to the state established church and do things that were contrary to their conscience. No other churches were allowed, and mandatory attendance of the established church was compelled under the Conventicle Act of 1665. Failure to comply would result in imprisonment and torture. The people did not want freedom from religion, but freedom of religion. The only real reason to separate the church from the state would be to instill a new morality and establish a new system of beliefs. Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the Bible was the source of this foundation. They believed that God's ways were much higher than Man's ways and held firmly that the Bible was the absolute standard of truth and used the Bible as a source to form our government.

There is no such thing as a pluralistic society. There will always be one dominant view, otherwise it will be in transition from one belief system to another. Therefore, to say Biblical principles should not be allowed in government and school is to either be ignorant of the historic intent of the founding fathers, or blatantly bigoted against Christianity.

Please read on.... http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

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Our U.S. Constitution was founded on Biblical principles and it was the intention of the authors for this to be a Christian nation. The Constitution had 55 people work upon it, of which 52 were evangelical Christians.(3) We can go back in history and look at what the founding fathers wrote to know where they were getting their ideas. This is exactly what two professors did. Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman reviewed an estimated 15,000 items with explicit political content printed between 1760 and 1805 and from these items they identified 3,154 references to other sources. The source they most often quoted was the Bible, accounting for 34% of all citations. Sixty percent of all quotes came from men who used the Bible to form their conclusions. That means that 94% of all quotes by the founding fathers were based on the Bible. The founding fathers took ideas from the Bible and incorporated them into our government. If it was their intention to separate the state and church they would never have taken principles from the Bible and put them into our government. An example of an idea taken from the Bible and then incorporated into our government is found in Isaiah 33:22 which says, "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king..." The founding fathers took this scripture and made three major branches in our government: judicial, legislative, and executive. As mentioned earlier, the founding fathers strongly believed that Man was by nature corrupt and therefore it was necessary to separate the powers of the government. For instance, the President has the power to execute laws but not make them, and Congress has the power to make laws but not to judge the people. The simple principle of checks and balances came from the Bible to protect people from tyranny. The President of the United States is free to influence Congress, although he can not exercise authority over it because they are separated. Since this is true, why should the church not be allowed to influence the state? People have read too much into the phrase "separation of church and state", which is to be a separation of civil authority from ecclesiastical authority, not moral values. Congress has passed laws that it is illegal to murder and steal, which is the legislation of morality. These standards of morality are found in the Bible. Should we remove them from law because the church should be separated from the state?

Our founding fathers who formed the government also formed the educational system of the day. John Witherspoon did not attend the Constitutional Convention although he was President of New Jersey College in 1768 (known as Princeton since 1896) and a signer of the Declaration of Independence. His influence on the Constitution was far ranging in that he taught nine of fifty-five original delegates. He fought firmly for religious freedom and said, "God grant that in America true religion and civil liberty may be inseparable and that unjust attempts to destroy the one may in the issue tend to the support and establishment of both."
_____________________________________

The Crown, against whom we rebelled, were Anglicans, CHURCH of ENGLAND, founded because a King of England wanted to be able to legally divorce his wives, an act forbidden under then Catholic law.

The founding fathers were an odd admixture of deists and other religions.

What BOTH atheists AND "believers" should strongly oppose, is the insitutionalization of "ceremonial deism"
http://www.markarkleiman.com/archives/spirituality_and_religion_/2004/03/ceremonial_deism_in_classical_times.php
http://www.theagitator.com/archives/000858.php
http://www.libertymagazine.org/article/articleview/382/1/69/
"Since 1940 the U.S. Supreme Court has twice ruled on laws that require public school students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, and it has discussed the Pledge in a number of other cases—cases that bear on whether adding “under God” to it in 1954 violated the establishment clause. See “Supreme Court Decisions Involving the Pledge of Allegiance” for a history of those cases.
The issue first came before the lower courts in 1918, 25 years after the Pledge was introduced. A schoolgirl in Ohio was sent home from school after she refused to recite the Pledge. She was a Mennonite, and she had been taught not to say the Pledge. Her father, Ora Troyer, was charged with and convicted for instructing his daughter to go against the law. He was fined and jailed for a month. He appealed to the Ohio Supreme Court, which upheld the conviction. Since then the Pledge has been the central topic in a number of lower court rulings.


Ceremonial Deism

Since 1963 the Supreme Court has used a concept called ceremonial deism to decide certain cases involving the establishment clause. If a practice
is customary, then even if it amounts to government en-
dorsement of a particular religion or religious belief, it may be beyond the reach of the establishment clause.



Christmas is a good example of ceremonial deism. The holiday has been celebrated by so many for so long that it’s no endorsement of Christianity for it to be a national holiday. A Christmas tree is an instance of ceremonial deism, and it’s no endorsement of Christianity to spend public funds to erect one at the White House. It wouldn’t matter even if only Christians put up Christmas trees. The tradition has been with us so long that it is an American tradition; it lacks religious significance, according to the Court.

Ditto for “under God” in the Pledge and “In God We Trust” on our money. According to one justice of the Supreme Court, these instances of ceremonial deism are “protected from establishment clause scrutiny chiefly because they have lost through rote repetition any significant religious content.”

The term ceremonial deism was introduced in 1962 by Eugene Rostow, the dean of Yale Law School. He used the term to refer to practices that are “so conventional and uncontroversial as to be constitutional.” In Rostow’s phrase deism refers to belief in a singular god. But the term has a more specific meaning. It refers to a belief held by a good number of the founders of America, the belief that there is one god, that it created the universe and the laws of nature and life, but that it does not interfere with its creation: it merely observes what happens. There are no miracles. There are no divine interventions or revelations. The god of the deists is not the God of Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson.

In the United States there are more than 4 million Presbyterians who believe in Jesus and more than 4 million Jews who don’t. Jesus is controversial. There are more than 63 million Catholics that believe God is a Trinity and almost 3 million Muslims that believe God is One. The nature of God is controversial. There are some 3 million atheists who don’t believe there is a God, and another 6 million agnostics who don’t know. The existence of God is controversial. There are millions of Americans—mostly Buddhists and Hindus—who believe that there is more than one God."

Christians being forced underground? The US becoming intollerant of Christians? Give me a break people. You're just finally feeling how it is to no longer be the single controlling interest in this country. Just because you dont have the power to control every law and court any longer doesnt mean that the US is becoming intollerant of you. What complete bunk!

"But Christians are equally justified to be concerned about their own freedom of speech."

As long as they speak it's fine, but, we are not talking bout telling gay people that what they do is bad. We are talking about making them miserable and deniying them basic rights (such as the right to visit your sick partner in a hospital).

"I don't hate or fear homosexuals"

Then leave them alone why do you need to care?

", but if they have a right to tell us how great it is (the love that dared not speak its name is now the love that will not shut up about it), then Christians have a right to say that it is wrong, explain why it is wrong"

Very true.

"and offer people a better way through Jesus Christ."

As long you they are not FORCED the way they are right now.

"However, there are some who consider the very expression of a different opinion to be "hate speech" -- even when it is actually motivated by love."

Like the preacher who attends the funerals of gay people who died from AIDS with signs that say "Burn in Hell Faggot!" ???

That's motivated by love alright.

I always thought that in a good democracy, people were free to do what they want to do as long as they don't harm their neighbors. Why are you aginst gay weddings? Does it hurt you, does it impact you? There are no social argument against it. The only opposition comes from people who are shocked and wish their neighbors would live the way they live. EVEN IF IT DOESN'T IMPACT THEIR OWN LIFE. Yeah, uppercase, because I really believe that it a fundamental rule in a free democray. Your freedom stops when it starts impacting other people, not when they don't like what you do although it doesn't really affect them at all.

"Our U.S. Constitution was founded on Biblical principles and it"

The same principles on kindness (well...), tolerance, respect for the elders, repression of murders and thefts, aso... is true in all societies. It is true in a hindu society, it is true in Shinto Japan or Buddhist Sri Lanka.

The Bible ISN'T the source of good for mankind. I'm atheist and care more about things like healthcare and helping the poors in this country than some righteous christian jerks.

And, some of the founding fathers certainly made some interesting quotes about religion in their writings
""I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught


"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

Regarding the preceding two postings . . .
Worthwhile history and interesting perspectives.

. . . (I was referring to the historical background posts by 'Code and ~Pepe~)

If we stand still for people who want to stress our differences as citizens, and castigate individuals for their religious or sexual preferences, our country will cease to be a melting pot, and become a boiling, seething cauldron of aggression, one against the other.

We SHOULD focus on our common goals and dreams and how to achieve those in peace.

Apparently, the current administration is NOT about peace and harmony, domestically or abroad, but instead, luxuriate in posturing themselves under the "war president" title.

We do not need an internal war, gays v. straights, poor v. rich, black v. white, and on and on ad infinitum.

45 million people don't even have health care. The number of people on public assistance has increased by a MILLION, and now, soldiers are being BULLIED and THREATENED into re-enlistment for this crazy war
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_5272.shtml
"Army to Soldiers: Re-enlist Now or Face Immediate Deployment to Iraq
By Staff and Wire Reports
Sep 17, 2004, 07:48
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The Army is threatening American soldiers with immediate deployment to Iraq, along with involuntary extension of their tours of duty, if they don't sign up for re-enlistment right away. Those who don't sign face reassignment to combat units headed for the war.

While the Army confirms that a "re-enlistment drive is underway," military brass claim no threats have been made.
But hundreds of soldiers from the 3rd Brigade Combat Team at Fort Carson, Colorado, were presented with that message and a re-enlistment form in a series of assemblies last week, say two soldiers who refused to sign the form. According to emails received by Capitol Hill Blue this week, the same message was delivered to soldiers at other bases.

A Fort Carson spokesman confirmed the assemblies and the form which,if signed, would extend each soldiers tour with the 3rd Brigade until Dec. 31, 2007."

Our citizens are being treated in a way that I believe is intolerable.

Our government was given the Mandate to provide for the Welfare of its people...not given orders to take over the world, and then rebuild all the nations it spends billions conquering.

We are living in dangerous times my friends....dangerous times for us all.

banning the bible has been tried before but to no avil. I'm not worried.

As far as the scare tactics goes, well there was the democrats Daisy Mae ad in the 60's against Goldwater and the Republicans Willie Horton against Dukakis. it's nothing new.

The republicans should be just as proud of their afiliation to this scare tactic as the Democrats should be with the release of forged documents against Bush. it's a two way street.

OOPS I think I just started a new thread

Capitalizing on issues of national security, our government has been pursuing a determined course of oppressive laws and actions having the result of abridging citizens' rights.

Ah, the present thread involving both politics AND religion -- guaranteed to fester divisiveness among our membership.

If you wonder whether I feel this type of topic CAN be counter-productive to our cause, well, you're right.

Patrick Henry

"We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations, and will raise up friends for us. The battle is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave . . . Is life so dear, or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry, in a speech March 23, 1775.

Fisher Ames

“Should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples, captivating and noble. In no book is there so good English, so pure and so elegant; and by teaching all the same book, they will speak alike, and the Bible will justly remain the standard of language as well
as of faith.” Fisher Ames: Author of the First Amendment
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John Jay

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay to Jedidiah Morse February 28, 1797
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John Marshall

"The American population is entirely Christian, and with us Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it." John Marshall, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833, JSAC, p. 139. Marshall was Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1801-1835.

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Benjamin Rush

"Let the children...be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools." Benjamin Rush, The Father of American Medicine, and the Father of American Psychiatry

_____________________________________

Roger Sherman

"I believe that there is only one living and true God - - - That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him." Lewis Henry Boutell, The Life of Roger Sherman (Chicago: A.C. McClurg and Co., 1896), pp. 272-273 David Barton, Original Intent (Aledo, TX: Wallbuilders, 2000) Ch. 6 p. 138

"Let us live no more to ourselves, but to Him who loved us, and gave Himself to die for us". M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company (Marlborough, NH, Plymouth Rock Foundation, 1982) p. 29

___________________________________

I could go on and go, but it shows us that MOST of your Founding Fathers used Christian principals to form and uphold their government.


_____________________________________

Kinda blows hole in the seperation of church and state argument.

In view of their personal beliefs, I give our founding fathers credit for forging a representative republic that was not a church-state type of government.

Republican National Committee Chairman Ed Gillespie said Friday that he wasn't aware of the mailing, but said it could be the work of the RNC. "It wouldn't surprise me if we were mailing voters on the issue of same-sex marriage," Gillespie said."

Hasn't anyone commented on this aspect: Here's the CHAIRMAN of the RNC saying he wasn't aware of the mailing, but said it COULD be the work of the RNC . . .
The chairman NOT aware of such political smear tactics being utilized within 'his' own organization that he heads?
What a great job with your candor, Mr. Gillespie!
But, then, evasiveness as well as sneaky attacks are to be expected in the political ballgame, right?
(Still, it's deplorable.)

Everytime I feel inclined to start posting here, paranoia and the Nazis show up.

I goofed in omitting this exerpt, which helps make more sense of my previous comments:
"Campaign mail with a return address of the Republican National Committee warns West Virginia voters that the Bible will be prohibited and men will marry men if liberals win in November."

It just strains credibility to be asked to accept how the CHAIRMAN of the RNC would not be aware of this type of inflammatory mailing DONE BY THE RNC!

BTW, George, I share your dismay to some extent . . . but the reality is that these types of threads draw the big crowds and get things really stirred up (not that it's beneficial to our unity around here).

This could be either some rogue republican or someone doing a joe-job to make the republicans look bad or just getting a laugh and some free publicity.

What we need is SPF for postal mail to prevent this sort of thing.

Thanks, jsk2001; I'll need to keep that in mind.
(Namely, "Campaign mail with a return address of the Republican National Committee" doesn't preclude the possibility that it didn't actually originate from the RNC.)

"Christians being forced underground? The US becoming intollerant of Christians? Give me a break people. You're just finally feeling how it is to no longer be the single controlling interest in this country."

GIVE ME A BREAK! I'm the one that said that, and I'm not even Christian. I'm not religious at all. Open your eyes.

Frankly, I couldn't care less if Christians were oppressed, as long as it was done to every other religion as well (citing my belief that religion is stupid, so why not?). But to deny that discrimination is taking place.. wow.

Christianity is still practiced by the majority of the American people. There is a Christian church in every town. Christian lobyist groups hold more a considerable amount of power. Christianity is currently running the whitehouse in the form of GW. Christians are merely fighting to maintain their dominance. Just because they are losing their dominance does NOT mean they are being oppressed.

Do you see a pagan church in every town? Wiccan? THESE are religions that were forced underground. Try to start a church of Satan in a town even up north and you'll get hammered by the law and thousands of protestors.

Are you blind?

I will not vote using fear as my guide but as it stands we have no real choice a winning vote for bush will make us more hated as ever and or probably more likely to start another war, a winning vote for kerry would most likely open our borders making the immigration problem worse than it already is and his talk of keeping jobs from going over seas do you think the his wifes business is located here? I don't think so.
Fear is what the republicans are using to drive the vote they are using fear to instill the fact of terrorists attacking here. likewise of the bible, and gay marriages just think years ago black folks couldn't marry white folks but they do today and they said the institution of marriage would degrade or diminish that never rang true if it were true today marriages wouldn't be no more to this day by the way divorces cause more problems than anything else to the institution of marriage if you ask me.

girl wearing christian shirt = kicked out mall

Are you blind?

What does thousands of protestors have to do with anything? Wiccans have the right to protest too. If they're too busy to protest because they're out doing evil wiccan things with their 14 year old evil wiccan friends, then that's their problem.

By the way - A wiccan woman (Cyndi Simpson) who was banned from being on the county board in Chesterfield County won her lawsuit against them. Hammered by law? My ass. The law protected her.

"Do you see a pagan church in every town?"

Do I even see a pagan in every town? No. How practical is it to spend on money on a church that only 0-2 people will attend? It's not. That's simple economics my friend. Are there pagan churches in the US? Yes. And pagans go there. Why would they put one in every town? That's stupid. Is there a catholic church in every town? No, there's not.

Were you even responding to me? Nothing you said sounds relevant at all to anything I said.. sorry, for a second there I thought you were trying to make a point to me.

"Do you see a pagan church in every town?"

yes you do. they're called taverns and casinos. the worship of alchol and money

You obviously know nothing about paganism Compmore. We 'worship' the earth and all the natural beauty that surrounds us.

gdZiemann no paranoia here..no Nazi's.. just us folks talking together..stick around eh

lordperrin

PERSECUTION OF CHRISTIANS GROWING IN THE UNITED STATES

More Christians died for their faith in the twentieth century than at any other time in history, says Christian Solidarity International. Global reports indicate that over 150,000 Christians were martyred last year, chiefly outside of the United States. However, statistics are changing: persecution of Christians is on the increase in the United States. What's happening to bring about this change?

According to some experts a pattern is emerging reminiscent of Jewish persecution in post war Germany. "Isolation of, and discrimination against Christians is growing almost geometrically" says Don McAlvany in The Midnight Herald. "This is the way it started in Germany against the Jews. As they became more isolated and marginalized by the Nazi propaganda machine, as popular hatred and prejudice against the Jews increased among the German people, wholesale persecution followed. Could this be where the growing anti-Christian consensus in America is taking us?"

Tolerance of anti-Christian attitudes in the United States is escalating. Recently, a woman in Houston, Texas was ordered by local police to stop handing out gospel tracts to children who knocked on her door during Halloween. Officers informed her that such activity is illegal (not true), and that she would be arrested if she continued. In Madison, Wisconsin, the Freedom from Religion Foundation distributes anti-Christian pamphlets to public school children entitled, "We Can Be Good Without God." The entertainment industry and syndicated media increasingly vilify Christians as sewer rats, vultures, and simple-minded social ingrates. The FBI and the Clinton White House brand fundamentalist Christian groups as hate mongers and potential terrorists. The Council of Religious Leaders of Metropolitan Chicago warns that plans by Southern Baptists to hold a convention in the Windy City next year might foment "hate crimes" against minorities, causing some Christians to fear that speaking openly about their religious beliefs will soon be considered a crime. All this, while Christianity itself is often a target of hate-crime violence. We remember the students at Columbine, and the United Methodist minister who was fatally beaten and burned in a remote part of Chattanooga, Tennessee, to name a few of the recent examples of interpersonal violence aimed at believers.

continue read here.... http://www.worthynews.com/christian-persecution.html

Removal of the Ten Commandments from a courthouse, removal of a beautiful tribute plaque and bible scripture from one of the parks down there, can't remember which one..

Two Christian camp councellors shot dead in their tents while on a campout near San Francisco

And lets not forget that prayer has been taken out of our schools, and parents have no rights over their own children anymore

The highest courts in the land have ruled with contemptuous decree against God, against prayer, and against the free expression of religion. Is it any wonder we have become the most profane and violent society in the industrialized
world?

And I would think there is a catholic church in every town or most towns as well as other types of churchs.

lordperrin I was making a joke.

We 'worship' the earth and all the natural beauty that surrounds us

So do Christians

Pepe that is scary.

sorry I hit the enter key too quickly. Pepe when My father died and I flew back for his funeral I tried to find comfort in my faith. I am not a bible thumping fundementalist but attended church regularly. my family cut me off and I was told that this isn't the time or place for this

"Pepe said:
Date: September 18, 2004 @ 1:20 PM
I don't think this is as much of a scare tactic as it should be, or could be....there will come a day, and we see it happening all around us, that Christians will be persecuted, and it will get worse, to the point that Christians will have to go underground..not for their own self-serving goals, but to help others in need."
-----------
Organizations and sects are so myopic. Talk about "self serving".
American people 'in general' are already losing rights more and more. Before you start the "Underground Christian Sect"..let's try to look at our society outsides ourselves..just this once.
-----------
Pepe also said:
"Gay marriage is also becoming an all too common event all around us."
-----------
Is that so wrong? Are these people EVIL in YOUR eyes or because the scripture said so?
Gee..I can feel "christian" love coming from your typing fingers.
Youre either hateful or just stuck with "translated dogmas written by man". Plain and simple.
No offense lady, but I'd rather have my kids hang around nice loving gay people than an "perceived fundamentalist" such as yourself.
And before you start psycho-babbling about my supposed "fear of christians" (the REAL common effect), both my parents whom I am extremely close to are active loving Christians but with the exception that they don't turn away people just because people aren't like them.
----------------------------

Pepe also said:
"My interest is watching how God is fulfilling His Word."
----------------------------
Are you sure its HIS word that you have an interest?
Historically, there were spiritually diseased people that spat hateful rhetorics that whites were the TRUE children of God and the rest were inferior.

I dont have anything against you Pepe. As a libertarian, I believe people have a right to believe or say whatever, but I do question your integrity and your convictions as a "loving human being" or just another mouthpeice among sheep based on your posts. It's very hypocritical for one to express concern that their rights to practice their religon is being impeded while at the same time insinuate that people of any orientation should not be permitted to marry.
As I said, I rather have my kids hang around people who are good and can at least be a little more honest with themselves.

Pepe said:
"The highest courts in the land have ruled with contemptuous decree against God, against prayer, and against the free expression of religion."
--------
Can you be any more dramatic?
People ARE allowed to practice religon. It should be kept out of schools and courts where the public are served. And there ARE OTHER TAX paying US citizens such as yourself who would agree my assessment.

-----------------------------
Pepe also said:
"Is it any wonder we have become the most profane and violent society in the industrialized world?"
-----------------------------
While I agree that I believe America is "spiritually" diseased..it is the fault of the parents who cannot raise their children properly. Often too many parents blame everyone and everything else because their kids are screwed up and refuse to take responsibility or the blame so they lazily vilify the world for their lack of parenting.
Please don't insinuate that non-christians are the reason your kids are spoiled or irresponsible citizens of society.

"Is that so wrong?"

Yes, from the view of our faith

"Are these people EVIL in YOUR eyes or because the scripture said so?"

No. besides the scriptures doesn't say gay people are evil. it says the act is sinful. Just like the act of stealing, excessive pride, and judgement is sinful. We all do sinful things. but are we evil? big difference.

"...but with the exception that they don't turn away people just because people aren't like them."

Pepe never said that. she's just voicing her faith not condeming anyone. I'm willing to bet if a gay individual needed help or shelter Pepe would be one of the first ones in line to help.

Indiewarrior you automaticly assume because she has strong faith, she's close minded and judgemental. sounds more like your post is the judgemental one. its a perfect example of her point that intollerance toward Christains who voice their faith is on the rise. My family did the same thing to me and I love them to death. You are a good person as well.
Muslums, and Jews also are against the gay lifestyle acording to their faith, I don't hear any critisizem toward them.

"Is it any wonder we have become the most profane and violent society in the industrialized world?"

this is a true statement. any society without spiritual guidence or faith (not necessarily christain) falls apart.

Compnomore

Governments tied to religous fundamentalists are the holy grail to utopia either.

You ARE aware of the middle east crisis right?

Sorry..I mistyped your nick Comp..it looked like compnomore from a glance. It wasnt meant to be an attack on your nickname.

Oy. I meant to say
Governments tied to religous fundamentalists are NOT the holy grail to utopia either.

I need to type slower.

haha no problem. yes fundamentalists in any religion are dangerous. even fundamentalist pagens. but beliving the gay lifestyle to be sinful is not a sign of fundamentalism

The government has no right to ban any faith. I think they are talking about the pledge of alligence with the phrase of 'under God' in it. In my state they've made it a law that schools must say the pledge of allegince at least once a week, because since 5th grade we haven't said the pledge, except occasionally.

Same sex marrage is immoral, and intolerable. it is a step to the end of culture as we know it, the United States will fall, one has no clue how long it's going to take, but the process has started, Libralism leades to the fall of social values, wich leads a nation into deteriation as no one gives a damn about anything anymore, everyone becomes lazy, and everyone becomes burglers to get what they want and cant afford, then when the government fails, millitant groups of rednecks and hicks will end up taking over, and giving their intellectual freinds the absolute power over the country, the absolute becomes corrupted and rules with an 'iron fist' which leads the the slavery of his/her enemys and the increase of position of his/her freinds along with thoes who helped him/her get into power. This continues for about a thousand years then the people revolt, overthrough the corrupt government (government eventually becomes more and more corrupt over time, just as a Hard Drive becomes more fragmented, if you don't defrag, you system slows down and starts crashing, the problem is that all this can be stopped if the government would be fixed, but everyone in it is too woried about personal aggendas to get a damn thing done for the people, or to fix the broken government.

compmore

That seems so sad that your family would feel that way at a time you needed them as well as spiritual healing at such a time. We just can't lose our own faith over such matters, but leave these things with God. (Thanks for sticking up for me, you guys are writing faster than I can think

indieWarriors ... Wow, I kind of had to laugh at your post, I'm now sitting here wondering just what my whole evil agenda is here....

Then I realized it was the "gay thing" again...but I think autodidact said it best today.

All I can say is that I'm glad I'm not the judge, but as a Christian, my integrity would be questioned if I didn't stand up to my beliefs.

I still stand firm on love the sinner, not the sin. And again I say, we are ALL sinners. I'm feeling such an antagonistic aura about your post and I have to wonder why?

Your parents sound like good people by the way!

We were however, in discussion here concerning Christianity in relation to politics, thus we carry on....

"And I would think there is a catholic church in every town or most towns as well as other types of churchs."

Well there's not one in my town, and I live right outside of St. Louis, one of the most highly catholic/conservative places you'll find. It just proves my point. There isn't a church of any one religion that it's every town.

that it's = that's

flame me again for speaking my mind (however messed up it may seem)

lordperrin, biblically speaking, that Christian is a sinner as much as you and everyone else on the planet.

Try saying "that's hate speech" to every Christian you meet when they say that to you in that manner and check out their responses.

Majority and minority make no difference.

If a Christian attempts to tell you that kind of thing in "no uncertain terms", then I believe that Christian loves you and God enough to take the risk of persecution and tell it like it is, just as Christ did for the masses in His time.

And b/c no one living can provide irrefutable proof of life after death, this is all a faith issue. God lays out His platform, so to speak, and Satan lays out his, for all to see (or not see). It's everyone's choice to pick which side they'll take. If you, lordperrin, refuse to accept the Christian standpoint, that's obviously entirely your choice. No one can push you. Only God can knock you out hard enough (w/ whatever means) to make you realize whatever He intends.

Good, get us to stand in your shoes. Of course, there are those who tell you that stuff to rile you up or whatever, and there are those who do it genuinely in a sincere manner. Figuring out the difference is the hard part. And once everything comes to an end, we will all be judged and will all be held accountable to our lives.

Sorry about this post breaking the previous attempt to turn this discussion around again

that's ok Pepe. my family didn't know any better. they automaticly assumed that since I went to church regularly and was active in the church at the time that I was a bible thumper who wanted to constantly preach. they were automaticly defensive when they heard the word God. like many people who don't really know what christianity is all about. Believing in God doesn't make a person a Christain. We all discussed it later.

I bring paranoia and Nazis everywhere I go

compmore "We all discussed it later." Awesome! Communication is integral.

CodeWarrior Yeah, this is ALL your fault, you also drag out the Christians! LOL

Pepe:
I dont think youre evil. I feel youre a passionate person who is confusing self ideals with scriptures and Im merely pointing out the hypocracy in your posts. To express concern that your rights are being violated is MY concern too but I find it disconcerting that you also want to violate other people's right at the same time. To me, its laughable and the same time you lose credibility.

I just find it interesting that some people try to come across as people who are outside the world when they're really not and then vilify others for the problems in this world. We all have our own faiths, opinions, etc with our own ideas of how the world should be.

I certainly don't believe you have some "agenda" or some sort of pariah..I'm just reminding you that you are a concerned citizen like everyone else with your own principles.

I could never fault Christians or any religon really because they amongst have certain differences in ideas and perceptions. I may as well stereotype races. The point is that even Christians use their own "personal" judgements and sensibilities like everyone else. Not every Christian is a bigot for example.
I get annoyed when some people just automatically say.."it says so in the bible". If everyone thought like that, we truly would be in serious trouble.

Comp:
I agree with you. Im not saying that Pepe or those views are "fundamentalist". Even if she was a KKK, she has a right to her own views, but we're talking about the commonwealth of the entire country where different people exist and work like everyone else and I do have a problem when any particular religon is "coerced" into any public institutions and then turn around and say MY right is being violated.
As for the dismantling of the Ten Commandment statue is more publicity than anything else. The majority of our federal and state officers are judeo-christian and churches are not required to pay taxes anyways so I really dont know what it is that Pepe was so concerned about.

funny that the "christians" seem the most intolerant.

indieWarriors

Mark 16:15

Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

I didn't write this, or said these things..they come from the Book. All I'm trying to do is be obedient to My Lord and Savior.

I'm sorry you are having trouble with my posts, I didn't mean to carry on in this vein, but everyone else keeps bringing it up, so of course, I respond

Pepe:
Like I said youre entitled to your beliefs.
I really dont need to know nor care whether you 100% never think for yourself or do or whether you really believe you are not part of the secular chain..but it's your life and your choice.

My only problem with you is that you insinuate it's a right to violate other people rights with your own and that's my only argument with you. Not your beliefs or principles per se.

Also, a society really doesnt survive well by one idealistic principle. Look at the fascist countries under dictatorship. It wouldnt be a democracy unless you're against democracy.
America is far from perfect, but at least at some level we live in a nexus where different people with varying views can coexist and I love it.

Hmmm...Do tell...

The pro-lifers who use fatal violence and claim to respect life at only inception but also believe in capital punishment are my favorite subjects.
That's an oxymoron of itself entirely. lol

Carla:
You dont have to be a christian to be intolerant. I met a lot of Archie Bunkers in my life time who are of every flavor and color.
Ironically...bigotry doesnt disciminate

"ut I find it disconcerting that you also want to violate other people's right at the same time."

Indiewarrior I think you are the one making a big deal out of this and are the intollerant one. Carla is 100% right, funny how it's only the christains who are intollerant. sounds like Christains are entitled to their beliefs until they voice their faith then they are preaching and violating others rights. no where in any of her posts did Pepe advocate violating any rights.
When Jews claim their rights are being violated we jump to their defense. when African Americans, Muslums, Gays, Mexican Americans, women, Scientologists, or any other group or religion talks about their rights being violated we jump to their defense but when Christains point out how they are being mistreated that's a different story.

Indiewarrior, it's attitudes like yours that makes Christains uncomfortable. we can't voice our faith in any way without someone who has no knowledge of our faith accusing us of being narrow minded. Some Christains (a small minority) are judgemental but many more non christains and those once a year christains (those who go to church only on Easter and Christmas) are in fact more intollerant.

Btw I think Carla was refering (in a roundabout way) that those accusing christains of being intollerant are infact themselves intollerant but don't see their own intollerance. Carla correct me if I'm wrong.

indieWarriors

There is a world of difference between the start of a new life that may never have the chance to be born and perhaps become the next great President of the United States because they are "snuffed out" (usually at the mothers great mental duress)...and the States decision to uphold capital punishment on a person convicted of taking a life, or lives.

One other thing I wanted to mention, was, you asked what the problem was I had with the removal of the ten commandments from the courthouse? I think the more relevant question is what was the problem THEY had with the ten commandments that warranted them the removal of said stone. Do they still use the Bible in the courthouse as a swearing in?

Go compmore Go

Good grief
Where to begin...

Comp said:
"Indiewarrior I think you are the one making a big deal out of this and are the intollerant one. "
-------
Intolerant of what exactly?
I made a deal out of it because Pepe was full of contradictions.
Also Pepe is advocating herself as a Christian so Im respectfully acknowledging her as that.
Even if she was an aethiest I would still point out her contradiction...being a christian has nothing to do with it and I never got into a theological debate with her nor do I want to.
Youre the one turning into a Christian Vs. The World when there isnt one here.
Perhaps, youre used to feeling victimized?

Comp also said:
Indiewarrior, it's attitudes like yours that makes Christains uncomfortable. we can't voice our faith in any way without someone who has no knowledge of our faith accusing us of being narrow minded.
---------------

Then perhaps youre not as secure with your faith as you thought?
A world with adversity...Gee....Go figure.
I would FIGHT for a Christian's right to practice religon if there was a law banning religous freedom even tho Im not Christian. Why? Because I want to protect your rights. Sorry that you see me as an enemy. You decided to discriminate me as an adversary because I pointed out the holes in Pepe's post. NOW who's being intolerant?
As far as being a victim, please...give me a break....women and people of color continue to get discriminated in jobs and housing. I myself as asian get stereotypical comments, slurs, the whole 9 yards but I dont see myself being "persecuted", insecure or crippled in life because its MY responsibility to fight these injustices and not constantly whine about victimization.

And if you can read my other post I also indicated that people of any color or creed can be a bigot...but I think youre too into the victim mode to see that. Im off to see the game. Good night all.

Pepe said:
There is a world of difference between the start of a new life that may never have the chance to be born and perhaps become the next great President of the United States because they are "snuffed out" (usually at the mothers great mental duress)...and the States decision to uphold capital punishment on a person convicted of taking a life, or lives"
----

Wow So much for "Thou shalt not kill".
If one cannot adhere to the basic 10 Commandment it's more the reason that make me question if its "God's Will" or mankind's need for revenge. Why bother with other scriptures really.
Now..keep in mind..its not the religon Im attacking..its MAN who can't even follow the scriptures let alone compulsively lead others to it. But let's pretend we didnt see this.

contridictions are one thing you were accusing her of violating others rights because she voiced her view. big difference.

"Intolerant of what exactly?"

intollerant of Christains discussing their faith

I'm very comfortable with my faith. I read your posts and you're very tollerant of all colors and creeds. you are also a big believer in people exercizing their right to have their own beliefs. unless they're Christains. that's where your're intollerant. you've done more in your posts then just point out pepe's aparrent contridictions. if you think I'm in a victim mode you don't know me very well.

indieWarriors

Many confuse the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill," by separating it from the rest of Scripture that gives it its proper understanding.

"Whoever strikes a man a mortal blow must be put to death. He, however, who did not hunt a man down, but caused his death by an act of God, may flee to a place which I will set apart for this purpose. But when a man kills another after maliciously scheming to do so, you must take him even from my altar and put him to death. [Exodus 21:12-14]

Capital Punishment
1. It stops forever the destructive activity of the individual.
2. It has allowed the perpetrator time to repent and die at peace with God.
3. It gives recognition to a sense of justice in the world.
4. It gives the individuals and community harmed by the act a sense of closure and safety.
5. It sends a message to others that the particular activity has dire consequences.
6. It reestablishes a sense of order in the world.
7. It reestablishes peace with God when humanity disallows grave injustices to continue festering through acts of giving only token punishments for grave offenses against God and man.
8. The concept of spiritual values of justice being of greater importance than humanistic values concerning limited life is reinforced.

The wisdom of God – known to us through His just laws – must never be referred to as unnecessary. God is the creator and has the perfect right to take life when He so chooses, and, He also has full right to order that it be taken under certain conditions. To believe otherwise is illustrative of either a weak faith, or a total lack of faith in God

There is no hypocracy in this... you just have to understand God, and He's there for us all..it's not a private club...

I'm starting to feel like it's "pick on pepe" night, but that's ok...bring it on....

and in this corner...............

compmore LOL love your sense of humor!

Kevin Drum at Washington Monthly is all over this one. Follow the link to 'Bible Banning" and be informed.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com

For those not interested in following the link, the source of the myth may be the infamous RS-2493, a 1974 petition to the FCC that Christian groups misinterpreted (maybe honestly, maybe not) as a proposed ban on Christian broadcasting. The FCC turned down the petition in 1975 but has nonetheless received over 30 million letters about it since then.

Peace.

"If a Christian attempts to tell you that kind of thing in "no uncertain terms", then I believe that Christian loves you and God enough to take the risk of persecution and tell it like it is, just as Christ did for the masses in His time."

Christ never said a single word against homosexuality. Ever. Quote me some scripture and maybe i'll get back to you.

Maybe that christian should mind his or her own fucking business instead of being an elitist snob.

case in point

Tom....lol...High Five...

I think John Lennon said it best:

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...
______________________

If all the religions disappeared today (wouldn't that be sweet), we would still act the same -- some peaceful, some not. A lot of behavior is hard-wired in us human animals. And then there's that social contract, i.e., do unto others, etc. Living life as a defensive mechanism.

Mostly religions are perpetuated as moneymaking entitities and to keep the status quo in power.

If you want to believe some t-h-i-n-g, go ahead. But don't base this government, this society, my interactions with others on your irrational ideas.

I'm letting you go do your thing. Just don't cross me and my freedom.

Is it wrong to want to want to live without constantly being told over and over again by people that they want to 'save me'? All I want is to be able to live in peace, minding my own business and have people mind their own. My sex life is not anybody's business but mine and I have every right to be angry when others seem to think they have a right to tell me what I should do and that if I dont agree with them that I will burn in hell.

If wanting to be left alone is intollerant, then I guess that's what I am. Christians can believe and practice whatever they want, I could care less, Im not going to go and tell them what to believe. I show them that much respect. That respect is not granted back to me and that angers me.

Live and let live.

lordperrin

I Corinthians 6 You did ask...

And you're right, what you do with your life is your own affair... no one has a right to tell you how to live your life.

I don't know anyone on this thread who has advocated judging you on your sex life or anyone elses. we just stated our faith, not told anyone what they should do, or that anyones going to hell. if everyone who sins goes to hell then Heaven is going to be an awful lonely place. intollerance is criticizing christians for their beliefs (which is what has happened on this thread) when none of us has condemed anyone or told anyone how to live.

Carla your freedom is respected. but this government and this country WAS founded on Christain principles and beliefs two hundred years ago weather we like it or not. This country just pays lip service to it now which is what the majority wants so as long as I can practice my faith or express my opinions without being criticized I'll be happy too.

"Mostly religions are perpetuated as moneymaking entitities and to keep the status quo in power."

wrong. that's the beauracracy that people have created around the religion, not the faith itself.

"If all the religions disappeared today (wouldn't that be sweet),"

no it wouldn't, there'd be chaos and no hope for humanity as there'd be no moral guidence to go by except our own flawed thinking. which is one reason the country is going downhill.

"I don't know anyone on this thread who has advocated judging you on your sex life"

Asia said: "If a Christian attempts to tell you that kind of thing in "no uncertain terms", then I believe that Christian loves you and God enough to take the risk of persecution and tell it like it is, just as Christ did for the masses in His time."

"I Corinthians 6 You did ask..."

I stand corrected. I've asked that question numerous times elsewhere and only gotten snide comments in reply. Thank you for educating me.

asia didn't pass judgement. Asia was just saying that a christain who tells you that what you're doing is wrong, it is because they love you. Asia was explaining why. not judging or agreeing with a judgement. big difference. besides, myself and the vast majority of christains would never get in your face (or anyone elses like that)

and I agree lordperrin, I don't want anyone telling me how to live either. I've had arguments with ministers who were suposed to be good friends of mine who decided they wanted to give me, Hard news as they called it. it was none of their business but they did and now they are not my friends. so even us christains get it from those FEW who are overzelous.

FWIW:
Regarding "I Corinthians 6" that was mentioned --
Also, the Bible concordance that I have refers to Romans chapter 1, esp. verses 26-28.

compmore ....thats right, AsiaMinor was probably? just reiterating what the Lord expects from us, and gives to us, probably coming from the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5:10

That article that pepe posted was hilarious. There isn't much funnier than a Christian with a persecution complex.

Ladies and gentlemen, I bring you Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson discussing 9/11:

Jerry Falwell:

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way - all of them who have tried to secularize America - I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.'"

Pat Robertson:

"Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted their agenda at the highest levels of our government."

When it comes right down to where the rubber meets the road, Christians are only advocating what God said first, believing the Bible to be God's word. So, those of you who are angry with Christians should direct that anger towards the Big Guy.

So much of this discussion is about misconceptions and blatant misinterpretations.

It really concerns me to have Christianity equated with being a Nazi. Not all Christians are like John Ashcroft, nor like Fred Phelps, the cultish lawyer/preacher from Topeka who trashes gays and claims it's God's will and God's words. It's far more likely Fred Phelps will burn in hell than any gays I have known and loved in my time.

I seriously doubt the Bible will be banned in any of our lifetimes. The process that is taking place right now is the changing of the interpretation of the Bible. This is what Christians find threatening.

And the key change will be the definition of marriage.

You go, Carla, but I still love you pepe. Tom, you should behave yourself.

There can be no agreement on religion, people, because it is belief. Christian principles, by themselves, are not all bad. In fact, I live my life by most of them because they are part of the fabric of a civilized society. But I do not attend church, do not believe in a God, and the bible is just a book. I was raised to be religious, but could not tolerate the hypocrisy I found in every church I ever went near. So, give me the golden rule, and keep away from my government and my child's school, and we can coexist quite peacefully. Respect my beliefs (or lack of them) and I can certainly respect yours. And Code, you are behaving very badly this evening. You knew this would happen, didn't you?

P.S. Nobody is going to ban the bible, not anytime in the near future. This is nothing but a political ploy, people. You all know how these people work. Come on, get real!

hey shadowmom. good to see Ivan missed you

Yeah, comp, thanks. I think somebody painted a bullseye on us, but so far we are fine. I even have milk back in my grocery store and everything! At one point, I began to suspect a Republican plot to keep us from voting in November...and while these storms have hurt a lot of people, we will survive. And we will vote. AND our votes will count. There is going to be an international team monitoring the voting here this time, and Michael Moore is supposed to be down here, too. I can hardly wait!!!! (Although it would be really nice to take down the shutters and plywood soon.) Hope everybody up north of us (Shmoo and Tom, I know) didn't have too much trouble with Ivan. Hope your mom's doing okay, too. Thanks for asking, compmore.

hey shadowmom. good to see Ivan missed you....Amen to that...

what a time you guys have had down there...have you noticed the pattern of storms, the first one cut across down and to the left in Florida, the second hit to the right and middle of Florida, the third came across more to the top and heading right of florida (I don't know my directions and the next one Jean is suppose to come up and turn left towards the top of Florida..in other words..just about every area is
being criss-crossed on the hit list..whats with that????

And you're right, Code and Tom are up to something..they now have a secret signal.... good boyscouts

rocknrollwoman I like your train of thought...

Michael Moore? hmmmmm an unbiased observer LOL. we'll leave that to another thread.

moms fine, she's as relieved as you are the Ivan missed her.

Yeah, it's been a hard year. Most people are just leaving their shutters up here, although Jeanne is supposed to go north, and Karl is supposed to turn north, too. They say we're in a pattern now where more storms will hit. I felt so sorry for those poor people in Grenada and in the panhandle of Florida when I saw the pictures, but when Andrew came ashore we looked the same here. And if it wasn't for Kate Hale, a lot more people here would have died. It was small, but really nasty. The only good thing that came out of it was that the Red Cross and the emergency response teams learned to be ready ahead of time, and not wait until the situation deteriorated as badly as it did then. But my heart goes out to those families who lost loved ones and homes, and who are still waiting for the cavalry to arrive.
We are sort of cut off down here, because most of our food and supplies actually come from up to the north--and sometimes the trucks just aren't coming. My grocery store is still not fully stocked, but we do have all the things we need. Just cross your fingers no more storms come at us this year, because supplies and tempers are really wearing thin. Living in a cave doesn't help matters any, either. We already have had one death right here caused by fire--all the windows were boarded up, and left no way out. And we're only about half way through the hurricane season.

Yesterday afternoon, gdZiemann wrote:
"Everytime I feel inclined to start posting here, paranoia and the Nazis show up."

My question for you, George: What Nazis?

". There is going to be an international team monitoring the voting here this time, and Michael Moore is supposed to be down here, too. "

and this makes you feel good?

I suppose the fact that the democrats are doing everything they can to keep Ralph Nader from running for president makes you feel pretty good too?

Yes comrade, we will give you a candidate and you will vote for him. they we will tell you what to vote for. and we will tell you how much you can keep and how much you should give to the govenment. and you will carry big 5 gallon jars of plutonium solution by hand because this is what good communists do. (read up on Mayak or Chelabinsk)

I can't stand it.

ShadowMom
half way through the hurricane season.? And less than 40 days or so to go before the election. Seems to me you got a lot more to worry about down there than terorrism. Thats harsh.

I started to defend George, because I think he can be a breath of fresh air...but George doesn't need defending. He's George.

Pepe--it's life. In Florida, you know sooner or late it will hit you. You just hope it's not another Andrew. I cried about that one, and rebuilt. But it hurt more than I thought it could. It seems these days that they find a lot of ties to terrorists down this way, too. Maybe the weather agreed with them. Maybe the lifestyle. But it does get a little wearing on your nerves.

What he said may have merit; I don't know. That's why I was seeking clarification.

Dubba at it again, an F-15 in one hand and a Bible in the other hand. Yelling in God we trust and all others pay cash.

Ok Comp..I persecute all Christians cause God forbid if I should EVER EVER argue with em. Geez..talk about drama queens..and no I dont have to know you to figure out that you ARE playing victim mode right now. But Im going to let it go because you already made up your mind that I am some hate monger to smite all Christians

Pepe:
Ok Ok..so basically Christians are capable of great violence just like everyone else and they do believe in eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth like everyone else. Cool.

Btw, captdunsel--Yeah, it makes me feel better--the more eyes, the better. And I could personally care less about Ralph Nader. He was good at his job at Consumers Reports--he hasn't done much good since then, except keep his name in the papers. Anybody who still wants him can write it in, right? If I want Howdy Doody, I can write it in, right? So why do I feel better about international observers and Michael Moore being here? It protects everybody concerned. Dade County counts, buster, and I want Dade County to count--all of it. And the only way to make sure is to have a lot of different people making sure it works. The governor (who you may recall is also named Bush) has already vetoed a paper trail---I want the world here to make sure it's on the up-and-up. Wouldn't you?

ShadowMom

It all makes sense to me..


indieWarriors don't be hard on compmore, he's a good person, and I'm sure you're just at cross purposes here..some kind of miscommunication..that can be unsettling

Christians are capable of great violence ? Well there is righteous indignation, but while I don't think true believers go out looking for trouble, it tends to find us...the devil is in the mix.

Shadowmom, you have completely missed the point so I will explain it to you.

Your (and my) government has failed you. If you wish to say that bush stole the election in 2000 that's fine. Fix the problem. the people we put in office did this so we should get rid of them by voting them out. We haven't done that thus we have failed ourselves. that's bad enough but now we have people in office who we elected that have sworn to uphold our country's laws and sovereignty (screw the spelling nazi, I'm pissed) who want to bring in the UN to make sure our elections are fair. AS IF!!! These same people who want "fair" elections are doing everything they can to keep certain individuals from running for the office using the same tactics they are complaining about. They are all for elections and laws and rules as long as they are the ones controlling the elections writing the laws and making the rules.

I personally think george bush is an idiot and should be removed from office, but I'm terrified of a democratic agenda that wants to remove any rights I have. Further, if they are so democratic why are they going to so much trouble to scuttle Nader's candidacy? Nader himself said that there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to landslide the worst republican president for more than 100 years out of office except that they don't want to address the issues that the people are concerned about.

And no, you can't write him in. In New Mexico they have a court injunction to keep him off the ballot. they almost did this in Florida and Colorado too. Gee that's really democratic isn't it. maybe the UN should check into that too.

I just don't care how stupid bush is, the other crap is more than I can stand.

No one is discounting the scope of the past injustices by misguided zealots in the name of God:
the Crusades
the Inquisition
various religious wars
etc.

No one is discounting the scope of the past acts of corruption and crime by various individuals in positions of religious leadership:
theft
sexual abuse
murder
etc.

Those despicable things have brought disgrace and dishonor among the perpetrators, and have prompted many to vilify God Himself.

It's been said that the only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. That's true, but it's equally obvious the other aspect is: evil can triumph when those who know better spiritually claim to be good while doing evil!

I'm sorry, did I get off topic? Send the UN after me.

Heck, no; both religion and politics are fair game for this thread.

the UN monitor our elections? most of the countries in the UN have no where near the democracy that we do. I can't trust them to monitor anything. they always turn tail and run when faced with conflict but have no trouble spouting off in their nice safe offices in New York. At least Michael Moore stands up for what he believes in.

captdunsel you are right on.

compmore -- be carefull, agreeing with me will get pretty much the whole world mad at you

haha. I'm already there.

captdunsel compmore -- be carefull, agreeing with me will get pretty much the whole world mad at you


Thats ok, I think he's getting used to it

goodnight all. this has been fun.

"..I went to church incognito,
when everybody rose.
The reverend Smithy-
he recognized me
and punched me in the nose..."
-Alice Cooper, "No More Mr. Nice Guy"

Alice didn't have it bad, the reverend only punched him, I've been escorted out of two different churches by the police!

Alice Cooper (real name Vincent Furnier) in real life, like me, is a preacher's kid.

Organized religion and politics are, in many ways, the same thing.

I know churches that have bylaws, they vote on things, and have committees and all. And, really, it is about setting rules for people to live by, and is a power play. Organized religion say their head guy is right and the other side is wrong, that the solutions their side offers makes sense and the other side is crazy....

And, in Europe, the alliance between the Catholic church and various rulers of countries have existed for centuries, and look what happened to the Knights Templar one Friday the 13th when both the King of France and the Catholic Church (the word "catholic" means "universal") got jealous of the political and financial influende of the Knights Templar...
they arrested all they could find and killed their leader (after torturing him) Jacques DeMolay.

Thus, it is only natural that an organized, religious right, would ally itself with the Repubs in "in order to form a more perfect Union"....

Perhaps the strongest union between Church and State was in Egypt and in South America in the Aztecs, where the ruler literally was believed to be a god. And, in Rome, some of the Emperors chose to declare they were gods as well, or at the least, DESCENDED from gods.

'Code, good insights and info., as usual.

As you and others know, it is written how Christ HIMSELF directed some of His strongest rebukes against the hypocritical leaders of the established religious system in power at the time of His ministry.

So, I guess, we all know corruption seems to be an inherent problem (prevalent for many millenia) within organized religion.
I'm thinking that's a good reason why some have decided to worship in simplicity without becoming attached to a "system". I sympathesize with their choice.

Without doubt, one can be spiritually in tune with truth without being "religious" as in the sense of having formal affiliation with an established "system".

mroop gave some great quotes earlier, and I guess it brings home a few points here.

Earlier, Pepe quoted John Marshall who said:
"John Marshall

"The American population is entirely Christian, and with us Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it." John Marshall, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833, JSAC, p. 139. Marshall was Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1801-1835."

What goes on now, with any representation of Chrisitianity in government, as I noted earlier, is ceremonial deism, which both atheists and christians should oppose, because ceremonial deism says basically, this. We've said "in God we trust" so long, or prayed before Congress starts, that it's a habit, and something we just kind of do. It really means nothing spiritual, it's just done. The atheist should say, "If it means nothing and you are NOT actually invoking a real deity, it should stop, since it is meaningless".

Christians should say, "If you say that prayers are really just a show and carry no real intent of communicating with God, and the In God We Trust, really MEANS nothing to you, then you are in essence making a mockery of true faith and you should stop."

Now, going back to the Falwell and Robertson quotes...they are the kind of thing I am talking about. They are attempting, FOR POLITICAL REASONS, to stir up hatred and paranoia in people against gays and other groups, and doing so for purely political ends, and for that reason, they are modern day Pharisees and Saducees, and, like their ancient counterparts, are anathema to the true spirit of Yahweh. They are, quite clearly, moneychangers in a virtual on air temple.

The other comment is this. It is great to have the kind of discourse we are having, from ALL sides, and I really cherish our ability to do this, but, and I am very serious here, I really fear that free speech, such as this, is an endangered species.

During the week, after work, I look online to find things for my blog, and scour national and international stories, as well as "local color" from different parts of the country in online papers (towns as small as 25,000 now have an online version of their papers).

As we have discussed before, there are trends in this country that really concern me. People get visits from the Secret Service for having a bumper sticker that might offend the president (I reported on this a few days ago in my blog). Regularly, John Young of Cryptome.org gets intimidation from the FBI, the military, and others, trying to stop him posting articles.

In my humble opinion, the highest and best function of religion, as it applies to here on Earth, is to make people "love their neighbor as their self"...to dissipate feelings of prejudice and hate , to encourage working together in peace. Jesus was not a namby pamby guy. I assert that he was the kind of person that any man or woman could aspire to emulate in his selflessness and genuine concern for his fellow man/woman. He was strong, compassionate, etc., and by being fully human, he said in essence...see, I did it, and you can too.

But, you don't have to believe in Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed in a lock step way. Fundamentally, the great religions teach temperance, forgiveness, love of self and others, and good treatment of our fellow creatures.

Some may ask "Who would Jesus vote for?"

I don't believe Jesus would vote for anyone.

But, if he did vote, I honestly can't see him voting for any party that would espouse fearmongering as a technique.

We see two candidates, both bragging about their war activities. Kerry of course, can prove he went to a War and got medals. Bush made a speech recently saying he was proud of being in the guard, and by his own words, prides himself as being a "war president" (although he seemed to stay as far away from actual war back in the Viet Nam conflict as he could, real memos or no memos, that one is not in dispute...he never was "in country").

I don't really like either guy. I don't like this nation thinking that war is its main raison d'etre. War really is a slugfest on macro terms. It is two sides that have failed their citizens.

Last night, I was watching Decisive Battles on History Channel. In that show, they recreate ancient big battles using computer generation. This one was the Goths v. the Romans. Emperor Valens was killed in that one. In that ONE battle, I believe they said 10,000 Romans were killed (the Goths won 1 to 0).

But, what got my attention was the firsthand description of the battle by one of the Roman commanders, who talked about the dust, the smell, and arms and legs being cut off of soldiers around him, and having arrows reigned down on them and not being able to retreat.

I had a dream last night that the guy I know in Iraq, came home, but he looked different. In real life, he's blond haired and blue eyed, but in the dream, he now had jet black hair, and a goatee cut in a fashion like sometimes you see the Devil having a goatee.

I'm not big on dream interpretation, but I think one interpretation is this. These guys, coming back from Iraq, will be changed. I know that everyone I've personally known who has come back from war, was a little different post conflict than before. But, for every guy or gal who comes home, there are more and more that will NOT be coming home.

John Young, at Cryptome.org, keeps a tally about how many of our folks are killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
http://cryptome.org/mil-dead-iqw.htm
"Updated 18 September 2004. Total 1,063 US Dead (Includes 53 US dead in Afghanistan during Iraqi war) -- 81 British, Iraqi and others, not included. "

You know, we ALL have a stake in this debate about where our country should be headed. Part of my ancestors were here to greet the "white eyes" when the first boat landed. And, one of the first things the missionaries did to the Native Americans, was to tell them their religion was wrong and force them to believe as they did. In early Texas, while it was still part of Mexico, the Mexican government established a group of guys called Empresarios (my spelling may be wrong). One of the most successful was Stephen F. Austin. The Mexican gov wanted to attract Americanos to settle the land in Texas, and they were giving people who moved there, around 4000 acres (for a few cents per acre). The settlers, to get the land, had to agree to move there and work the land, but ALSO, they had to agree to convert to Catholicism.

I know, I'm rambling, but here's the thing. Make no mistake. Bush , early on, called this a crusade, and I think it was a Freudian slip. This IS Islam v. Christians. And, the first Crusade almost bankrupted Europe, and the Muslims won.

But, as the present is sometimes a reflection of the past, we should look at the Children's Crusade, in which religious fervor, combined with youthful optimism, led many young people to be killed, die of hunger and starvation, or be forced into slavery and prostitution.
http://jmgainor.homestead.com/files/PU/Cru/chcr.htm
"Children's Crusade, 1209 - 1229

While there was no papal bull that called forth the Children's Crusade, it was nevertheless the result of the widespread enthusiasm and fervor that previous papal crusades had aroused. It is one of the most tragic of tales. In 1212 a twelve year old French shepherd boy named Stephen evidently claimed to have had a vision in which Christ appeared to him as a pilgrim and called for the rescue of the Holy Land. Eventually an army of thirty thousand children and adults gathered around Stephen. At about the same time, a ten year old German boy named Nicholas, and a second whose name has been lost, gathered similar groups of an estimated twenty thousand children and adults to go to the Holy Land. While some of these eventually returned to their homes, many died of hunger and of the rigors of the travel. Unscrupulous slave traders promised a large number free passage to the Holy Land 'for God'. Seven ships departed. Two were shipwrecked, and the others were taken to Africa and their passengers sold into slavery.

... At the same time there occurred outbursts of mystical emotion similar to those which had preceded the first crusade. In 1212 a young shepherd of Vendôme and a youth from Cologne gathered thousands of children whom they proposed to lead to the conquest of Palestine. The movement spread through France and Italy. This "Children's Crusade" at length reached Brindisi, where merchants sold a number of the children as slaves to the Moors, while nearly all the rest died of hunger and exhaustion...."

(The Moors were Muslims).

If the current administration wants a bogeyman to fight for the next thousand years, then choosing Islamists (codename, "terrorists") would be the perfect target to keep a war going a long time. There are reportedly a BILLION believers in Islam worldwide.

So, everyone who wants a war that goes on so long that your children's children will have a place to go die, I say, plaster a Bush-Cheney sticker on your bumper and be there in November to vote with bells on.

If you think that Jesus, sword in hand, is smiling down from heaven and giving a thumbs up to the kind of thing that went on at Abu G. prison,
or he gives a celestial "atta boy" to men, women, and kids strapping on bombs and blowing themselves and others up in God's name, vote for Bush/Cheney or whatever Mulla runs the country you are in.

Personally, I don't WANT any president doing dress up and dropping onto a ship with a big sign Saying "Mission Accomplished" and in one week tells one person on air that we CAN defeat the terrorists, and then, turns around in the same week and tells someone else on another show that we CAN'T defeat the terrorists.

I am sick that it is all going to boil down to a choice between two yuppies, who long ago swore a secret oath to give their allegiance to Skull and Bones.

I will predict the election here and now. A Skull and Bones member will win in November. I SHOULD NOT be able to predict that a member of a secret organization will win the election before one official vote is cast.

Kerry, as I have said in my blog, is not the lesser of two evils, but the "lesser of two weavils".

Is Bush the anti-Christ? No. Is he dangerous for this country....I honestly, and without hesitation say YES. If I, as a voter, as a concerned citizen, did not really and truly believe that his re-election will spell disaster for the country and people I love, I would not spend so much of what little time I have in my day, on my blog, like a modern John the Baptist, hollering in a virtual wilderness, trying to warn others of what I think will happen.

Are you concerned with the Induce Act, Pirate Act, PDEA, ACCOPS, and the rest?
Look at the how the administration has treated the introduction of these. Look at the number three priority of the FBI.

Bush says he believes God put him in the White House. He thinks his actions are led by God. I say, Oh My God!

For people who vote for him this November, I would echo the words of Yahweh from the Cross...
"Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

"so it goes"-Kurt Vonnegut
~CW

Who the fuck cares? Gay marriage should just be legal, that way we can all stop whining.


Oops. I forgot, West Virginia is (looking like) a bunch of bigots.

And, I think West Virginians are being targeted because the Repubs think they are backwoodsy, gay hating, fundamentalists and would respond to this kind of thing. I know ONE West Virginian who is anything but this, and would vehemently object to this kind of unsolicited fearmongering email.

Now,I haven't read every single post,but I read a good portion.

How would "Gay marriage" bring about the end of our society?
If you believed that homosexuals were cesspools for HIV,why let them go about engaging sexual activities?Why not be happy that two people who love eachother have found happiness?

And don't justify it by bringing up the Bible.The Bible says lots of things,such as how you should love the downtrodden and the persecuted(whom are...Oh,I don't know,the homosexuals).

And if you're one of those who feels that a man laying with another man is a sin,then you also have to remember another sin.
Adultrey,sexual activities outside of wedlock.
That's two sins at once if two homosexuals aren't married!
If they're married,that knocks down the sin level.
--
Oh yeah,not to mention that if two homosexuals want to a child,they'll probably adopt the kid,giving them a possible future.

And please,don't even think about the whole "it's wrong biologically" spiel.
Should barren women not be allowed to marry?How about people who have gotten surgery so they can _intentionally_ avoid reproduction.


Do you know the theory on why the Bible is so adamant about being anti-homosexuals?
Because the Romans tolerated homosexuality,and many of their great scientists,warriors,and leaders lead a bi-sexual lifestyle.And since the Christians loathed the non-Christian Romans,they searched for something big(besides their gods) to disagree with.

great post pacmandude!

There's even disagreement between me and my wife on this one. Because I wrote the article, I brought the subject up with my "better half" and she feels it's morally wrong for gays to marry. I know my in-laws and my mom feels that way as well...so I am an island of thought in my own family on this issue.

Thanks Code!

Yeah...Most of my in-laws in Texas are against it.
They try and fight against it in Church,so they take me there,I sit there and listen to what they say,but I won't argue in a place of religion...As long as the people are in worship.
They just use blatant lies,and the twisting of terms to convince others to believe their point of view.I mean,they(my in-laws) did it to try and make me into a Creationist,why wouldn't they do it to try to make me a homophobe?

King George the Crazy sez they hate us for our freedom. So, how does he promote freedom? By being against the freedom of allowing gays to marry and allowing stem cell research to help folks w/ Alzheimers and other diseases...that's HIS freedom.

And please, let's NOT ignore a recent speech by Donald Rumsfeld...
http://www.dod.mil/transcripts/2004/tr20040914-secdef1302.html
"...The schools are open. The hospitals are open. They have a stock market functioning. They sent some teams to the Olympics. They have a symphony and at the same time, amidst all those good things that are happening, people are being killed. Iraqis are being killed, as they were yesterday and the day before. At some point the Iraqis will get tired of getting killed and we’ll have enough of the Iraqi security forces that they can take over responsibility for governing that country and we’ll be able to pare down the coalition security forces in the country."
======SNIP===========
"At some point, the Iraqis will get tired of getting killed..."
As Bill Maher said on REAL TIME when he read this....
(I'm paraphrasing) " yeah...at first getting killed is fun...but you know, it gets old after a while"....

I cannot believe what comes out of the mouths of Rumsfeld, Bush, and Ashcroft...sheer lunacy!

It's amazing that the same party that freed the slaves is now trying to persecute another group.
Times change,I guess.

And if all of the Iraqi's"get tired of being killed" and form a giant security force,then you've turned a nation into one giant militant force.
So you go from Saddam,to whatever faction of the security force overthrows the government currently in place because they don't feel it's protecting them enough.

Being decidedly libertarian in nature, I take issue with anyone trying to "make" (overly persuade) people regarding points of view, what to believe, or how to live their lives.

But, that being said, if one has faith in a spiritual document like the Bible -- for those having confidence in it being God's Word -- then that truth transcends societially changing waves of political correctness.

My take on what Rummie said is that, the way we win the hearts and minds of Iraq, is get them tired of being killed...yeah, that will win their undying loyalty to us!

I know I get too political, but even in the story of Jesus (Yahweh), HIS story, in the context of the country in which he was living was this....
you had one of the most powerful, military nations in the world (ROME...now the US), occupying a country in the Middle East..and you had terrorists (Zealots...see http://latter-rain.com/ltrain/zeal.htm ) trying to run the armies of the occupying nation out of their country...at the same time that the people of the occupied nation was a different religion from the occupiers.

We KNOW what happened to Rome, and who ultimately took over the Holy Land...so, what is Emperor George doing now, differently than what the Roman emperor did.

Reading that Rumsfeld says that the Iraqis will get tired of being killed,
is eeriely almost exactly the same thing that some of Rome's generals were saying about the insurgents in the land Jesus was born and died in.

We haven't learned a friggin' thing about the Middle East or human nature in 2000 years...or at least, we haven't learned how to handle it differently...occupy, kill, and hunker down and try to intimidate.

Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result.

I submit, given that definition, Bush is insane.

Aye,and when we come to a time of the ultimate clash between religion and our society....
I honestly wonder which side would win.(No sarcasm intended)
---

What was he thinking when he said that?Honestly,people already dislike being killed,and if they get to the point where they all fight back,then they won't be so nice to us,since it would be obvious we hadn't been protecting them.

Rome lasted for aroumnd 700 years...that about half a millenium more than we have at this point...they were overrun by one of the groups they had run over and treated like crap...the Goths...almost 3/4 of a millenium it took before the peoples they "conquered" and whose lands they had occupied, said enough is enough and fought back en masse. And THAT was before nuclear weaponry.

As a nation, I believe our next target is Iran, and then maybe Syria...we are headed for some serious trouble if we keep this up....and I for one, don't want to see our bluster turn into WW III, and see my thirty year old son, dragged kicking and screaming into the military, as fodder for the war machine.

I'll dodge the draft if there's one put in place.
It may sound cowardly,but if the US starts a war I don't agree with,I refuse to fight.
Maybe I'll flee to Canada.

And with Rome being taken by the Goths....
It's like Einstein said when he was asked what sorts of weapons would be used in WW III.
"I can't tell you,but I can tell you what they'll use in the fourth -- Rocks."

I had an interesting convo with my mom about the gay marriage ban. I live in MO, the first state to vote on it, and it passed.

I voted against it. I was shocked that so many people voted in favor of it... like my mom. She told me, in more words, that she would have had absolutely no problem voting in favor of gay unions in which gays would recieve the exact same rights as marriage.

It's kind of corny, but for a lot of people it boiled down to the word "marriage." Not living together, not morals, and not rights. They just didn't want the words "gays" and "marriage" together. People called the local radio stations saying the same thing. They voted for the ban, but would have voted in favor of civil unions in which they would be given the same rights.

I'm not sure how relevant that is.. but reading that someone thought gay marriage would destroy our society made me laugh and then post that.

With half of marriages ending in divorce, and Fox and others turning marriage and dating into online gaming events, dunno how "sacred" Americans are holding the institution of marriage.

TheSherminator J

Just two things here, I have to leave town today (lots of people cheering) first off Code, we need to distinguish between freedom of choice and freedom to sin..one should not entitle us to the other... If I choose to be a thief, I shouldn't complain against society for throwing me in jail..and so, I make no apology for being a Christian. Code, listen to your wife..she sounds like real good people to me.....

On the gay marriage issue, if two guys/girls want to live together, mate, have kids, call it a civil union, joint habitation, even give them a certificate, whatever, are we now changing the definition of marriage, ( one man, one woman,) because 2% expresses a percieved discrimination? I can't marry a person of my sex, nor can they..where is the discrimination?

We're taking a short vacation, but I'd love to carry on here...wahhhh!!! Have a good day today folks!

From the UK:

I find it interesting that the "Religious" state that the United States was attempting to escape is now the *most* unreligious country in the world.

65% of younger people in this country do not have a faith and would reject any forced upon them.

It worries me when I see valid factual and scientific arguments rejected to be replaced with baseless religious propaganda.

The true meaning of organised religion is not anything about faith - its about control. "Do this or face hell", "Thou shalt do this".... etc etc.

Now, I'm not saying that all religious people are under someones control (though you could call god an of facist ideology).

I'm not saying that your Vicar is somehow trying to control you.

No, the control was generations ago, when it was illegal not to attend church in the UK. Or when the Roman Catholic church was so powerful it was dangerous for King Henry VIII to move against the church.

Today we are meant to live in a tollerant, modern, society where we are Free And Equal(tm).

Banning Gay marriage goes completely against that. I'm not Gay, but I'm comfortable enough in my own sexuality to not care if 1/30th of the people I have met in my life are Gay (statistically).

Religion is fine provided it doesn't have any power. Science is great, but we shouldn't run a country on Maths.
Business is good (I have qualification in business and economics) but it must not run the world.

PEOPLE EN MASSE run a democracy, and any group having control against the basic and fundamental human rights and freedoms can go to Hell. Or Jail. Whichever is applicable.

Oh, I just looked at the EU Constitution.
A gay marriage ban is illegal since it comes against the equality law which includes "sexual orientation".

My school has a copy of the UN Charter of Human Rights on the wall. Some other countries would have the 10 commandments.

Which should we be more proud of?

Have a good vacation Pepe...have fun...I will miss ya!

"My school has a copy of the UN Charter of Human Rights on the wall. Some other countries would have the 10 commandments.
Which should we be more proud of?"

Which should be held in higher regard?
People of faith might respond something like this:
The latter document came from God, but the former one didn't. If faced with a choice (because of potential conflicts between the two), it might be more important in the long run to pay attention to GOD's charter for living than the UN's.

"Religion is fine provided it doesn't have any power."

If you're referring to organized religion foisting power over people, amen to that!
Undoubtedly, God Himself is unhappy about the way spirituality has been misused and abused throughout the annals of history.

To use Christianity for an example, the power of its faith should be for each adherent personally -- NOT as a whip or a scare tactic to control others (that is soooo bad). The trouble with religion being too organized is that it begins to act like other (secular) systems which emphasize maximum corporate results....and the Bible's teachings about how to use the Golden Rule to interact with others is somehow diverted off to the side.

BTW, here's another important issue:
Christians are as Christians do.
But, it does not follow that CHRISTIANITY is as Christians are or do.
(Philosophy as a concept is not intrinsically defined by a sampling of philosophers who may or may not be following established precepts or protocols at any given point in time.)

When the government gives the nod to one religion over another, or one race over another, or one way of thinking over another....our freedoms are doomed.

"find it interesting that the "Religious" state that the United States was attempting to escape is now the *most* unreligious country in the world."

And thank god for that. Maybe in another couple hundred years our children won't be subjected to this shit at all. They can watch arabs and indians and pakistanis kill each other and sit back and bask in their own intelligence and free mind.

wow, I have to say something here. I was done with this thread and moved on but something you said Sherm. I certinly don't want to be antagonisic because you're a great guy and my friend but look at what you and others who claim no religion are saying. all anyone of faith has to do is say something about what they believe and everyone who doesn't like religion comes out of the woodwork and angrily denounces, criticizes and redicules the christain faith. you and others are doing exactly to us christains that you claim we are doing to you. I think the point is being made quite well here that lambasting christains or their faith is ok but defending it is not.

also if all our children will have in a couple hundred years is their own intelligence (we already have free will) then they'll be in a sorry way. Whenever man arrogantly thinks he has the power and control he's only deluding himself.

You guys can't stop me from believing (not now or not in two hundred years) and you can't stop me from praying for you. which is what I'm going to do right now before I hit the sack. goodnight

Actually, the UK situation is a little more complicated. Currently we are on a rediculous level of political correctness. The government calls this 'multiculturalism'. While the christian-varient religious are getting steadily less popular, we also have a seemingly endless rush of immigrants from all over the continent bringing their own religious, so most others are on the rise. It goes against the princibles of multiculturalism to criticise these religions in any way as it may offend others culture.

I find it very annoying. Im not racist, but I do have some standards - if someone wants to live in the UK, let them, but at least make them learn english. The current policy involves all governemental paperwork being printed in twelve languages, arabic street signs in london and primary schools giving courses in punjabi and urdo.

Point taken comp, although I wasn't saying that Christians were doing anything to anyone. I have no religion, but I see with my own two eyes that Christians in this country are being persecuted.

I don't see having no religion and believing that I am right as being arrogant. I just think it's the smart way to go. I just think religion is silly. Good can come of religion, but it's nothing that can't come from a non-religious person.

Point taken though.

http://www.pcpages.com/tasadar24/1095298030513.jpg

I doubt Christians will ever be beaten in America... or maybe they will when the combination of Brave New World, 1984, and F451 hellish future comes about... but I do see these intollerant "compassionate conservative" asses getting the hell out of here.

Not gonna get anywhere near this thread even with my 10 foot pole!

The RNC is not stupid. They're going to manipulate and use main stream religious tactics as a way to get the votes.

well the statistic is that 65% of people aged below 19 have no religion (those that can claim whether they do or don't).

as for the religious argument - i am right behind free speech for BOTH parties.

the difference is (and this is fundamental to the idea of liberty): that people should be allowed to talk about what they want - but things should not be banned on totally religious grounds.

What if I had a religion that banned chocolate. It would be against the first precept and in old law would be punished by death.
Now I can back up the claim with the scientific argument that chocolate is bad for you and that it can make you obese if you eat to much.

...but should chocolate be banned?

I hope that makes the point. Its OK to tell people what you think, but you can't just ban things on pretty shallow grounds.

(Though I am a proponent of banning guns - guns have no purpose other than to kill, while chocolate is food - obesity is a side effect of eating too much of it.)