Bush - Nazi Link Confirmed
By by John Buchanan
from The New Hampshire Gazette Vol. 248, No. 1, October 10, 2003

By John Buchanan

Exclusive to The New Hampshire Gazette

WASHINGTON - After 60 years of inattention and even denial by the U.S. media, newly-uncovered government documents in The National Archives and Library of Congress reveal that Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush, served as a business partner of and U.S. banking operative for the financial architect of the Nazi war machine from 1926 until 1942, when Congress took aggressive action against Bush and his "enemy national" partners.

The documents also show that Bush and his colleagues, according to reports from the U.S. Department of the Treasury and FBI, tried to conceal their financial alliance with German industrialist Fritz Thyssen, a steel and coal baron who, beginning in the mid-1920s, personally funded Adolf Hitler's rise to power by the subversion of democratic principle and German law.

Furthermore, the declassified records demonstrate that Bush and his associates, who included E. Roland Harriman, younger brother of American icon W. Averell Harriman, and George Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather, continued their dealings with the German industrial baron for nearly eight months after the U.S. entered the war.

No Story?

For six decades these historical facts have gone unreported by the mainstream U.S. media. The essential facts have appeared on the Internet and in relatively obscure books, but were dismissed by the media and Bush family as undocumented diatribes. This story has also escaped the attention of "official" Bush biographers, Presidential historians and publishers of U.S. history books covering World War II and its aftermath.

The White House did not respond to phone calls seeking comment.

The Summer of '42

The unraveling of the web of Bush-Harriman-Thyssen U.S. enterprises, all of which operated out of the same suite of offices at 39 Broadway under the supervision of Prescott Bush, began with a story that ran in the New York Herald-Tribune on July 30, 1942. By then, the U.S. had been at war with Germany for nearly eight months.

"Hitler's Angel Has $3 Million in U.S. Bank," declared the headline. The lead paragraph characterized Fritz Thyssen as "Adolf Hitler's original patron a decade ago." In fact, the steel and coal magnate had aggressively supported and funded Hitler since October 1923, according to Thyssen's autobiography, I Paid Hitler. In that book, Thyssen also acknowledges his direct personal relationships with Adolf Hitler, Joseph Goebbels and Rudolf Hess.

The Herald-Tribune also cited unnamed sources who suggested Thyssen's U.S. "nest egg" in fact belonged to "Nazi bigwigs" including Goebbels, Hermann Goering, Heinrich Himmler, or even Hitler himself.

Business is Business

The "bank," founded in 1924 by W. Averell Harriman on behalf of Thyssen and his Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V. of Holland, was Union Banking Corporation (UBC) of New York City. According to government documents, it was in reality a clearing house for a number of Thyssen-controlled enterprises and assets, including as many as a dozen individual businesses. UBC also bought and shipped overseas gold, steel, coal, and U.S. Treasury and war bonds. The company's activities were administered for Thyssen by a Netherlands-born, naturalized U.S. citizen named Cornelis Lievense, who served as president of UBC. Roland Harriman was chairman and Prescott Bush a managing director.

The Herald-Tribune article did not identify Bush or Harriman as executives of UBC, or Brown Brothers Harriman, in which they were partners, as UBC's private banker. A confidential FBI memo from that period suggested, without naming the Bush and Harriman families, that politically prominent individuals were about to come under official U.S. government scrutiny as Hitler's plunder of Europe continued unabated.

After the "Hitler's Angel" article was published Bush and Harriman made no attempts to divest themselves of the controversial Thyssen financial alliance, nor did they challenge the newspaper report that UBC was, in fact, a de facto Nazi front organization in the U.S.

Instead, the government documents show, Bush and his partners increased their subterfuge to try to conceal the true nature and ownership of their various businesses, particularly after the U.S. entered the war. The documents also disclose that Cornelis Lievense, Thyssen's personal appointee to oversee U.S. matters for his Rotterdam-based Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart N.V., via UBC for nearly two decades, repeatedly denied to U.S. government investigators any knowledge of the ownership of the Netherlands bank or the role of Thyssen in it.

UBC's original group of business associates included George Herbert Walker, who had a relationship with the Harriman family that began in 1919. In 1922, Walker and W. Averell Harriman traveled to Berlin to set up the German branch of their banking and investment operations, which were largely based on critical war resources such as steel and coal.

The Walker-Harriman-created German industrial alliance also included partnership with another German titan who supported Hitler's rise, Friedrich Flick, who partnered with Thyssen in the German Steel Trust that forged the Nazi war machine. For his role in using slave labor and his own steel, coal and arms resources to build Hitler's war effort, Flick was convicted at the Nuremberg trials and sentenced to seven years in prison.

The Family Business

In 1926, after Prescott Bush had married Walker's daughter, Dorothy, Walker brought Bush in as a vice president of the private banking and investment firm of W.A. Harriman & Co., also located in New York. Bush became a partner in the firm that later became Brown Brothers Harriman and the largest private investment bank in the world. Eventually, Bush became a director of and stockholder in UBC.

However, the government documents note that Bush, Harriman, Lievense and the other UBC stockholders were in fact "nominees," or phantom shareholders, for Thyssen and his Holland bank, meaning that they acted at the direct behest of their German client.

Seized

On October 20, 1942, under authority of the Trading with the Enemy Act, the U.S. Congress seized UBC and liquidated its assets after the war. The seizure is confirmed by Vesting Order No. 248 in the U.S. Office of the Alien Property Custodian and signed by U.S. Alien Property Custodian Leo T. Crowley.

In August, under the same authority, Congress had seized the first of the Bush-Harriman-managed Thyssen entities, Hamburg-American Line, under Vesting Order No. 126, also signed by Crowley. Eight days after the seizure of UBC, Congress invoked the Trading with the Enemy Act again to take control of two more Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses - Holland-American Trading Corp. (Vesting Order No. 261) and Seamless Steel Equipment Corp (Vesting Order No. 259). In November, Congress seized the Nazi interests in Silesian-American Corporation, which allegedly profited from slave labor at Auschwitz via a partnership with I.G. Farben, Hitler's third major industrial patron and partner in the infrastructure of the Third Reich.

The documents from the Archives also show that the Bushes and Harrimans shipped valuable U.S. assets, including gold, coal, steel and U.S. Treasury and war bonds, to their foreign clients overseas as Hitler geared up for his 1939 invasion of Poland, the event that sparked World War II.

That's One Way to Put It

Following the Congressional seizures of UBC and the other four Bush-Harriman-Thyssen enterprises, The New York Times reported on December 16, 1944, in a brief story on page 25, that UBC had "received authority to change its principal place of business to 120 Broadway." The Times story did not report that UBC had been seized by the U.S. government or that the new address was the U.S. Office of the Alien Property Custodian. The story also neglected to mention that the other UBC-related businesses had also been seized by Congress.

Still No Story?

Since then, the information has not appeared in any U.S. news coverage of any Bush political campaign, nor has it been included in any of the major Bush family biographies. It was, however, covered extensively in George H.W. Bush: The Unauthorized Biography, by Webster Tarpley and Anton Chaitkin. Chaitkin's father served as an attorney in the 1940s for some of the victims of the Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses.

The book gave a detailed, accurate accounting of the Bush family's long Nazi affiliation, but no mainstream U.S. media entity reported on or even investigated the allegations, despite careful documentation by the authors. Major booksellers declined to distribute the book, which was dismissed by Bush supporters as biased and untrue. Its authors struggled even to be reviewed in reputable newspapers. That the book was published by a Lyndon LaRouche's organization undoubtedly made it easier to dismiss, but does not change the facts.

The essence of the story been posted for years on various Internet sites, including BuzzFlash.com and TakeBackTheMedia.com, but no online media seem to have independently confirmed it.

Likewise, the mainstream media have apparently made no attempt since World War II to either verify or disprove the allegations of Nazi collaboration against the Bush family. Instead, they have attempted to dismiss or discredit such Internet sites or "unauthorized" books without any journalistic inquiry or research into their veracity.

Loyal Defenders

The National Review ran an essay on September 1 by their White House correspondent Byron York, entitled "Annals of Bush-Hating." It begins mockingly: "Are you aware of the murderous history of George W. Bush - indeed, of the entire Bush family? Are you aware of the president's Nazi sympathies? His crimes against humanity? And do you know, by the way, that George W. Bush is a certifiable moron?" York goes on to discredit the "Bush is a moron" IQ hoax, but fails to disprove the Nazi connection.

The more liberal Boston Globe ran a column September 29 by Reason magazine's Cathy Young in which she referred to "Bush-o-phobes on the Internet" who "repeat preposterous claims about the Bush family's alleged Nazi connections."

Poles Tackle the Topic

Newsweek Polska, the magazine's Polish edition, published a short piece on the "Bush Nazi past" in its March 5, 2003 edition. The item reported that "the Bush family reaped rewards from the forced-labor prisoners in the Auschwitz concentration camp," according to a copyrighted English-language translation from Scoop Media (www.scoop.co.nz). The story also reported the seizure of the various Bush-Harriman-Thyssen businesses.

Still Not Interested

Major U.S. media outlets, including ABC News, NBC News, The New York Times, Washington Post, Washington Times, Los Angeles Times and Miami Herald, have repeatedly declined to investigate the story when information regarding discovery of the documents was presented to them beginning Friday, August 29. Newsweek U.S. correspondent Michael Isikoff, famous for his reporting of big scoops during the Clinton-Lewinsky sexual affair of the 1990s, declined twice to accept an exclusive story based on the documents from the archives.

Aftermath

After the seizures of the various businesses they oversaw with Cornelis Lievense and his German partners, the U.S. government quietly settled with Bush, Harriman and others after the war. Bush and Harriman each received $1.5 million in cash as compensation for their seized business assets.

In 1952, Prescott Bush was elected to the U.S. Senate, with no press accounts about his well-concealed Nazi past. There is no record of any U.S. press coverage of the Bush-Nazi connection during any political campaigns conducted by George Herbert Walker Bush, Jeb Bush, or George W. Bush, with the exception of a brief mention in an unrelated story in the Sarasota Herald Tribune in November 2000 and a brief but inaccurate account in The Boston Globe in 2001.

John Buchanan is a journalist and investigative reporter with 33 years of experience in New York, Los Angeles, Washington and Miami. His work has appeared in more than 50 newspapers, magazines and books. He can be reached by e-mail at: jtwg@bellsouth.net.

What, if anything, does this have to do with the current Bush family? How does the sins of past Bushes reflect on the present?

I heard an interview with John Buchanan today. Not only was he arrested and hassled, but a doctor who took his side received a little visit from the FBI and some attempts at intimidation.

It wasn't that long ago.

Funny how ironic the Nazi label is so often passed around on this sight, to the point where it's driving the rest of us away. That the men who are so often behind the RIAA lawsuits and the bullying of our people, the shakedowns of 80 yr old grandmothers and 8 yr old girls, the ceo's of the music industry the likes of.....

Edgar Bronfman head pig at TIME Warner Music

Michael Eisner head pig at Disney

Charles Koppelman head pig at EMI Music
Andrew Lack head pig at Sony Records

Sumner Redstone head pig at Viacom\ MTV \V H-1

Gary Hersh head pig at Capitol Records

Lew Wasserman head pig at MCA records

David Geffen head pig at Geffen Music

Hilary Rosen Former head pig at RIAA and Democratic Party lobbyist

Cary Sherman Current Head Pig at RIAA

Matt Oppenheim head pig lawyer for RIAA

Howard Berman Bought off Democratic Party Congressman

are all........................................Jewish!

Maybe the ultimate insult to the likes of these men in the end is to compare them and their despicable actions and filthy deeds to the actions their ancestors faced at the hands of the Nazi's

"What, if anything, does this have to do with the current Bush family? How does the sins of past Bushes reflect on the present?"
"...the Nazi label is so often passed around on this site, to the point where it's driving the rest of us away..."

Some searches of several websites yielded core background information pertaining to how Dubya, his father, and his grandfather have all been lifelong members of the clandestine Skull & Bones, a branch of The Thule Society to which Herr Adolph Hitler was an adept. Both the Skull & Bones and the Thule Society are illuminist brotherhood-of-death organizations dedicated to the goal of global government through fascist elimination of individual liberties and constitutional sovereignties.
Through occultic-type rituals, these three Bushes have purportedly pledged loyalty to the vile plan of devising a world tyrrany.

There apparently is sufficient documentation available if any scholarly researchers wanted to keep busy for awhile . . .

Yes, I realize this would imply that Senator Kerry has also pledged loyalty to a fascist plan of devising a world tyrrany. Sort of brings an interesting perspective to the discussion table of how "basically, there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the Democrats and the Republicans", doesn't it?

An otherwise mystifying anomaly may be partially explained in the consideration of prominent 33rd degree masonic Jews who participate in "the plan." Other reports abound as to Jesuits and part of the Vatican being involved as well.
Fascinating.

why is this story not on the Gazette website?

Oh, Indy-boy,after reviewing your posts, you are clearly obsessed with hating Jews and loving Bush. Why don't you start your own site? Then you can explain how Jews run Sony and Bertlemann and EMI, and how Prescott Bush got a raw deal with that Trading with the Enemy Act stuff in 1942.

(Hint - Sony is run by japanese looking persons. I've met a few.)

If we are "driving the rest of you away", why are our stats up, and how do you know we are not trying to drive YOU away?

Here's one for you. Kerry went to a Jesuit law school, as did I (I was there when he was).

Now you can go discuss the Bankers-Zionist-Jesuit conspiracy with new important facts!

But probably leflaw hasn't joined the Skull & Bones like Kerry has. That would be a significant difference, for sure.

Indie,
In order for world tyranny to come about, there MUST be insiders participating from ALL faiths. The bulk of the worlds population are led by the nose by their "faith".
This provokes responses like "how dare you compare evil to these guys ". It is possible for there to be evil Jews, Jesuits, Catholics ..etc .. without all of the members of that religion to be evil. Only the ones in power need to be evil, in order to control their "faithful"

...And I'm guessing he's not a 33rd-degree mason or a Jesuit either (though there are such things as stealth Jesuits, heh-heh).
Ah, well, it's at least relevant for us to acknowledge that no one person knows all that there is to know.

BTW, dreddsnik3's views seem to share quite a bit in common with mine.

Ditto, Dreddsnik.

Rather, I meant to say, my views seem to share quite a bit in common with dreddsnik3's.

...and leflaw's.

I certainly found this to be a very interesting piece of history (of course, just about anything related to WWII is interesting to me).

Still, I think QuietGuy has a point, if the intent of the article is to smear Bush et al. It's not that unlike those who disparage the Kennedy family because of Joe Kennedy's mob connections. And I'll bet a lot of our powerful politicians have ancestrial skeletons in their closets that they would not at all be proud to reveal.

"Here's one for you. Kerry went to a Jesuit law school, as did I (I was there when he was)."

heres another: kerry basically said fuck you to the army when he chunked his medals, accusing the military in vietnam of war crimes. one would think you would want people to forget stuff like that. then he turns around 30 years later and tries to get a job as (not mine) President. one of his favorite things to tell you early on is that he served in vietnam. bashing bush being in the guard, claiming he didnt even show up and all that. the other thing he liked to tell you is that he won, among other awards, 3 purple hearts. 'say john, prove to me that you won 3 purple hearts. show em to me. whats that, you threw em away?' guy's got more waffles than a house of pancakes

this really isn't anything new.

visit

http://rense.com/

you can read all the bush hating you want. There are some interesting articles concerning bush and IG Farben (the makers of Zyklon B) bush and Standard Oil, bush and Union Bank etc. there is no doubt in my mind that most of it is true. There are plenty of articles about the military industrial complex that we've all grown to love, and you can even find some interesting cartoons.

Are we shocked by these revelations? no. Does anyone really give a shit? no. How come these secret societies exist and control everything (ie skull and bones, masons, knights templar, The Mau Mau, etc)? Well, the answer to that is rather simple and can be picked out fairly easily from reading Alexander Hamilton's Federalist Papers or if you are not inclined to spend a few days doing some heavy reading you can pick out the highlights by taking a quote from the X-Files-- "deceive, enveigle, obfuscate".

Let me shock you a little further. You people keep making analogies to Hitler and talking about nazis. What you should be worrying about is a little more insidious. For example, in the military communist system of the former Soviet Union they actually had elections. The communist party presented a candidate and they voted on whether or not to make him their prime minister. Not much doubt about the outcome there so it wasn't a surprise when Joseph Stalin was elected cheif cook and bottle washer, and he was worse than hitler. You think we are so different? I'll make you a guarantee right here. next year one of two men will be president of this country and from a strictly political sense you can't tell them apart. Even if the whole nation came to it's senses and voted for say, Ralph Nader (who I am backing by the way) Either bush or kerry would be president. That's right sports fans, YOUR vote means dick. How did this happen? well, it was easy really, we let the great unknown conspiracy of control shift our focus from what was really important to things like john kerry's viet nam military record, or george bush's lack of viet nam military records. now, one of them will be calling the shots next year and my guess is we won't really notice much difference between then and now except to see which talk show host or movie maker can be more obnoxious.

Open your eyes folks, this argument, this site, this moment in history is not about sharing music over the internet. That is a smoke screen designed to turn your attention away from what we have already lost and don't even know yet.

I'm going to bed now and maybe if I take enough Sominex I'll sleep well. unless my stomach starts acting up.

oh yeah, and anyone who says kerry had absolutely no dealings in any of what he claimed went on over in Vietnam is full of shit.

I spend entirely too much time on the internet.

Cap,
You are correct, I feel, to a point.
That is this RIAA,MPAA copyright stuff is truly a smokescreen.
It IS about rights and control, but not music.
The laws created for the protection of "copyright", and to "protect our children from porn" ( a parents responsibility, not the governments ) are DELIBERATELY worded to reach far and beyond the copyright cartels. Legislators purposes for going along with RIAA therefore can be seen as twofold.
1. They get wealthy.
2. It helps them eliminate the free flow of information on the net.
Control religion
Control the flow and availability of information
Absolute control.

If this is what you meant to begin with cap, feel free to slap me

I need to spend less time on the net too.

Joe Kennedy's mob connections were fair game, as far as I'm concerned. It certainly weas relevent to assessing Kennedy. If Dubya distanced himself from his father and grandfather, then I would want to know more about it.

I recently came across a marvelous map of WORLD GOVERNMENT, which I am trying to get permission to reprint. It states:

"the world class is not only "White" or "Wasp"; it is "multicultural", made up of longstanding bourgeois (or imperial or noble) families from Japan and China (or those of Chinese extraction) from old Arabic families, whether Jordanian or Lebanese, from Korea, Thailand, India and so in."

This is the modern conpiracy you are all looking for. It started after th defeat of Napoleon, with the reorganization of the financial structure of the British empire to keep control of markets and currency fluctations to preserve the wealth of the richest families on the planet. London served as the center of the world's money markets, until WWII, and the ascendency of the dollar as the world's currency. Google Bretton Woods Agreement, International Monetary fund, etc.

You all know, for example, that the Kaiser and Nicholas II were relatives, and that the British throne was related by blood to other capitols of Europe. This familiarity doesn't stop wars - it starts them, in pure family feud sytle. The same situation in Asia.

Thats why the Russian revolution was so scary to the West; it spelled trouble for ruling families in other countries ( Marx originally intended commmunism for Germany or England before Russia.)

Read your Toynbee and some American diplomatic history, or just google around for a few minutes. Its all there. Non-disputable. The Bush family, like similar families before it, has served these foreign interests in the US for at least three generations at high levels.

The nazi stuff is just the sensational part.

Governments or religious groups don't rule the world; families do, along with their business partners. Are some of them Jews, Catholics, WASPs, Muslims, etc? Of course. Only Americans seem to not get it.

As a Jew, I am equally wary of Trotsky as Rothschild. Get your rights and your lefts and your liberals and conservatives straight. Politicalcompass.org

The conspiracy is the haves vs. the have nots. Same as it ever was. Money is th e root of all evil. You know, I made that expression up!

Give me Harry Truman anyday.

The Bretton Woods system of international economic management established the rules for commercial and financial relations among the major industrial states. The Bretton Woods system was the first example of a fully negotiated monetary order in world history intended to govern monetary relations among independent nation-states.

Preparing to rebuild global capitalism as World War II was still raging, 730 delegates from all 44 Allied nations gathered at the Mount Washington Hotel, situated in the New Hampshire resort town of Bretton Woods, for the United Nations Monetary and Financial Conference. The delegates deliberated upon and finally signed the Bretton Woods Agreement during the first three weeks of July 1944.

Setting up a system of rules, institutions, and procedures to regulate the international political economy, the planners at Bretton Woods established the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development (later divided into the World Bank and Bank for International Settlements) and the International Monetary Fund. These organizations became operational in 1946 after a sufficient number of countries had ratified the agreement.

The chief features of the Bretton Woods system were, first, an obligation for each country to maintain the exchange rate of its currency within a fixed value—plus or minus one percent—in terms of gold; and, secondly, the provision by the IMF of finance to bride temporary payments imbalances. In face of increasing strain, the system eventually collapsed in 1971, following the United States' suspension of convertibility from dollars to gold.

Until the early-1970s, the Bretton Woods system was effective in controlling conflict and in achieving the common goals of the leading states that had created it, especially the United States.

"The conspiracy is the haves vs. the have nots. Same as it ever was. Money is th e root of all evil. "

pretty much sums Hamilton up. also explains why Stalin sent millions to die mining gold in Kolyma.

I just like to talk a lot so I sound like I finished high school.

oh well, back to downloading.

Hmmm....this place is loaded with nuts. ~David Spade voice~: Lithium, look into it.

I mentioned to my father that Barack Obama would be the first black president (and added, don't worry, you'll be dead by then) and he said, that would never happen, the masons wouldn't let it.
Huh?

This stuff is just scary and just by pointing out the fact that our enemies CEO's in the music industry are predominately Jewish makes you a hater is both ignorant and equally frightening. Though the fact that they are is as irrelevant as is comparing just about everyone and everything to the Nazi party. A real shame that the Leftwing Loonies have taken it upon themselves to hijack this sight and have gone so far off the beaten path. Boycotting Riaa and exposing the evils of the music Industry is what I thought we were about. I, like some are doing so and wish for more of it. How terrible that some have so lost their way.

If indeed I'm not welcome on this sight I will leave forever. But a movement that so prides itself on getting it's message out to the masses, are only welcoming some and excluding others who don't necessary follow the leftwing paranoia and is exclusive is doomed to falure.

I saw a movie a while back, can't remember what it was called, I THINK Bruce Willis starred in it. Carla's statement brings to mind a very specific scene in it.

Bruce walks into his home ( he's a cop ) and spots the toilet seat up. He looks at his wife and asks "who's here ?" .
Wifey starts screaming at him, calling him "paranoid", a "Nut", he needs help, etc ....
Brucie looks ay the closet, " he's in there, isn't he ? ".
Wifey screams more about his paranoia, tells him he needs a shrink again etc ....
Brucie takes out his gun, cocks it, points it at the closet, and says I'm going to count to 3 and shoot.
Wifey screams at him, threatens to call the police, blah blah, paranoid sicko balh blah.
Bruce gets to 1 and the guy comes running out of the closet in his undie-shorts.

It's the vehement cries of "paranoid", "loaded with Nuts", "conspiracy freaks" etc .. that really make me certain of my conclusions, especially when current events support those conclusions.
The naysayers are simply too afraid to look closely at what is happening around them. Much more comfortable to do the "ostrich" thing.

Indie,
I didn't see ANYONE asking you to leave.
I was only pointing out that the RIAA issue is an inseperable part of this nazi issue.
They are one and the same.
Your contributions have been welcome and many.
I don't think anyone here has lost their way, it's only that that "way" has proven to be much, much WIDER than anyone at first thought it would be.

Right. To narrow the issue of RIAA control to RIAA vs. Indies, and divorce it from WTO , WIPO , international copyright treaties, globalization....


Thats losing.

The problem here is that Bush was in the center of these things. Thats why his name keeps coming up. Nuttin personal...

Current events don't support your conclusions. Your twisted thinking leads to a peculiar version of the facts.

Many of the "good guys" at EFF and who are fighting the RIAA are jewish too.

I'll stereotype as much as the next person but not when it's patently stupid.

(E.g., (which is Latin for "for example;" "i.e." is Latin for "that is," meaning "this is what that means"), I think there is a "jewish" trait (genetic? cultural? combination?) to be outgoing/assertive, and verbally skilled, which is expressed in many ways (not just related to money acquisition).

Twisted thinking ???
Stereo typing Jews ???

Have I done any bashing of any single race or religion here ??
Looking back carefully at all my posts, I don't honestly see that.

Have you actually READ my posts Carla ?

Leflaw,
I don't want to drag you into this but,
it was mentioned that you were Jewish.
Do you feel I have been "Jew Bashing" here.

It appears more like Carla is attempting to twist what I have said for emotional effect, to distract readers away from what I REALLY said.

Quoting myself from the post you clearly missed Carla

"Indie,
In order for world tyranny to come about, there MUST be insiders participating from ALL faiths. The bulk of the worlds population are led by the nose by their "faith".
This provokes responses like "how dare you compare evil to these guys ". It is possible for there to be evil Jews, Jesuits, Catholics ..etc .. without all of the members of that religion to be evil. Only the ones in power need to be evil, in order to control their "faithful""

Note where I say ALL faiths.

"possible for there to be evil Jews, Jesuits, Catholics ..etc .. without all of the members of that religion to be evil. Only the ones in power need to be evil, in order to control their "faithful""

This phrase is a key as well.

It indicates that I believe that Evil ( capitalization intended ) is NOT the exclusive property of any single race or religion, and take only a few key people to manipulate otherwise good caring folk of any faith.

I fail to see how that is twisted thinking.
Perhaps I AM stupid.

And the point is????
The Kennedy's made their fortune bootlegging liquor yet Teddy (don't drive over the bridge with him) keeps getting elected; John Kerry marries his fortune (twice).
Who gives a flying fuck what GW's grandfather did. You aren't considering Prescott Bush for president, only GW.

"
Date: August 27, 2004 @ 11:54 AM
Current events don't support your conclusions. Your twisted thinking leads to a peculiar version of the facts."

BTW,
Thanks for demonstrating the point of my "Bruce Willis" post so eloquently.

After your litany of names you said, "are all........................................Je wish!"

So what -- is that relevant to anything?

And you stated, "just by pointing out the fact that our enemies CEO's in the music industry are predominately Jewish makes you a hater is both ignorant and equally frightening."

You can point it out, but it makes you stupid and your arguments baseless. So what if they are jewish? Relevance?

That's why I said what I said about your stereotyping.

However, I need to remember that you cannot argue with people with paranoid schizophrenic tendencies.

I'm not sure about WTO, globalization and the like, I pick my battles and I feel our attacks on the music industry is a noble one. The moral responsibility is with us and I don't take that fact lightly. Of course I'm aware that people of many faiths are joining the fight and I welcome them. My hatred is not for Jews, though the many bosses and CEO's amongst the media are in fact that. But hate the men who head and dictate polices that call for suing our people, the taking away our rights, or just their all-around arrogance and sickly wealth of these pigs. The removal of the media industry CEO's can only bring about a flow of creativity, freedom, and independent thinking, music, and filmmaking not seen since the renaissance. Think about how good that would be. I do and it's that fact that drives me in my relentless attacks. Any Pious Jew who believes in his faith and history will tell you that the likes of Edgar Bronfman, Jeff Katzenberg, The Weinstein brothers, and Sumner Redstone do not represent their people. The fact we are pointing out the evil deeds these men do should bring all Jews to join our fight. I want all people to be aware of our fight and to join us rather it be Jew, Gentile, Rightist, Leftist, Democratic, or Republican. With large numbers and a unified stance can we make a difference. Don't forget our enemies will be watching.

"After your litany of names you said, "are all........................................Je wish!"

Once again,
You failed to read.
The post you refer to is not mine.
It's IndieRockGuys post.

Carla I'm sure anyone who's looked over my posts can tell outright that I'm far from stupid and if you look above even I wonders outright about not only the relevance of the fact the major media bosses are Jews or the relevance comparing everything to the Nazi party. There isn't any. But do not make a sight and contribute to it if you're going to both attack and defend our enemies. A house divided can only bring us doom. I am aware of the evil means and despicable ways these Media CEO's are suppressing our people. My fight is for the masses and never if Jew or not, will I ever stand up for media pigs Edgar Bronfman, Neil Shapiro, Jeff Zucker, David Geffen, or Sumner Redstone. I will use "W" words rather you're with the BigPigMedia or you're against it.

Indie our fight is a noble one. I agree.
Watch out for Carla, she swings without looking. ( or reading )

The more she calls you stupid indie, the more she reinforces the fact your not.

Stick around friend, all here is not always smiles, but all are always welcome

I was referring to IndieRockGuy's post, not yours dreddsnik3 -- couldn't you tell by the exact quotation?

The problem with indies's post is it goes out of the way to isolate lower level jews in various corporations to make it sound like the old Jewish World conspiracy theory. For example, all power at Sony is Japaneses. Nobiyuki Idei is the man at Sony, who succeeded Ohga, who succeeded Morita, etc. Andrew Lack is a relative nobody. He is a cartaker for a crashed business. A "Lackey". I am so funny

You are seeing Jews in the woodwork, my friend. Are there Jews in the media? Sure. They left the shetl a long time ago.

Start concentrating on multi-generational families and their banking and political connections. (Bin Laden understands this - he's a Saudi). Follow the buck, not the Jew. Look for the big money, not a few billion shekels here and there.

You can't blame the Jews for inventing communism and capitalism at the same time, now can you?

"There isn't any. But do not make a sight and contribute to it if you're going to both attack and defend our enemies. A house divided can only bring us doom. I am aware of the evil means and despicable ways these Media CEO's are suppressing our people. My fight is for the masses and never if Jew or not, will I ever stand up for media pigs Edgar Bronfman, Neil Shapiro, Jeff Zucker, David Geffen, or Sumner Redstone. I will use "W" words rather you're with the BigPigMedia or you're against it."

This is gibberish.

Did you see A Brilliant Mind? I'm sorry for using the word, "stupid;" I meant irrational, distorted thinking.

And dredd -- I basically don't read your posts; I do not respect your opinion when it comes to politics.
If I respond to something you've written, I will address you by name.

Feel free to ignore me as well.

From my post ...
"It's the vehement cries of "paranoid", "loaded with Nuts", "conspiracy freaks" etc .. that really make me certain of my conclusions, especially when current events support those conclusions.
The naysayers are simply too afraid to look closely at what is happening around them. Much more comfortable to do the "ostrich" thing. "

Note,
"Current events support those conclusions"

Your follow up ....

"thinking leads to a peculiar version of the facts.

Many of the "good guys" at EFF and who are fighting the RIAA are jewish too.

I'll stereotype as much as the next person but not when it's patently stupid.

(E.g., (which is Latin for "for example;" "i.e." is Latin for "that is," meaning "this is what that means"), I think there is a "jewish" trait (genetic? cultural? combination?) to be outgoing/assertive, and verbally skilled, which is expressed in many ways (not just related to money acquisition). "

Note the accusations of jew bashing directed at me ( no other posts referenced by you ).

From My response .....

"Have I done any bashing of any single race or religion here ??
Looking back carefully at all my posts, I don't honestly see that"

Your response immediately following my post.

"After your litany of names you said, "are all........................................Je wish!"

Note: YOUR litany of names.

This seems clearly to indicate that you believed that the litany of names was from me, which prompted you to attack me for anti-semitism. Besides, that doesn't appear to be an "exact" quotation .

Nice try at backpeddling. I make mistakes too, but I own up to them when I make them.

"And dredd -- I basically don't read your posts"

That you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt,

When I said "your litany of names" I was referring to what IndieGuy wrote. In fact, I specifically quoted his text.

dredd, I didn't actually read what you wrote about faiths, etc. so I wasn't speaking to you.

I did generalize about the nuts here and include you. Because I've read things you've written before.

And actually, I read IndieGuy's post, because I confused him with shmoo (sorry shmoo).

I have a slight problem with the excessive "pig" references. I happen to like pigs and to constantly call the scumbags running all the media outlets pigs is just plain wrong to all my pig friends out there. Talk about sterotyping...afterall, pigs don't eat THAT much...ok maybe 4 or 5 times their body weight but gee, it that something to hold against them?

Laugh it off, folks and do more of your own typing, instead of cutting and pasting. The above posts are a crisscrossing confusing mess.

I like Leflaw's post because it 's interesting to see some history come to light. It should be no surprise to anyone that businessmen play both sides when trying to make a profit, or like the big four to get their "legislation" through the Congess and the Senate to give themselves a more perfect monopoly.

Trust me,
I nearly wet myself laughing.

The fact that one gives Bin Laden, a mass murder and a killer of Christians, Jews, and Muslims any credit is just absurd to say the lest. In the case of Sony that may be the exception not the norm but everywhere else the likes of Sumner Redstone, Edgar Bronfman, and David Geffen all have controlling stock in the companies. Follow the money? Sure and it leads to Those I have mentioned. If we're quoting Bin Laden here his "Fatwa" or holy war is against both crusaders and Jews. That means nobody is safe. My fight is with those who suppress our people and slicker and laugh at that fact. I've done my research and welcome others to do so. I stand by my convictions and the names I have listed are our enemies. So be it, let's get our house in order and move forward. The comedy of Nazi conspirers, Bush hating, rightwingers behind every tree can only make our cause look ridiculous in the eyes of the pigmedia. Get focused anything less can only bring us defeat. And tyranny!

Almost looks like I stumbled into th Democratic Underground site again

That would be snicker. Again how some are defending those who we are supposedly against is short of amazing.

Yeah the sight is looking more and more like the idiocy that stems from sights like Moveon.org rather than Boycott Riaa. Another sight and more examples of the loony left and it's twisted tactics and paranoid delusions. Are these not the same traits our enemies have in Hollywood and the major media. We as contributors deserve better. Freeing the music has long lost it's meaning it seems.

it's = it is
its is the possessive pronoun

I have met the enemy, he has far more money to spend on hookers and booze than I do. dammit.

That's okay; we'll forgive you for being in a state of confusion. We understand.

site
cite
sight

guess which one this is.

(my preceding messge was in reference to Carla's post regarding her confusing IndieGuy with Shmoo)

*sigh* No one's perfect, not even [gasp] me.

Yeah, pinemikey's right, we need to lighten up every now and then.

Come now Carla, all of us from Code on down have made the occasional typo in the rush to get our thoughts out. Please if this is the best argument you have against me I'm not worried. Lighten up and maybe just maybe you'll have that liberal utopia you're striving for.

I don't mind occasional typos. It's when there seems to be a lack of knowledge regarding word usage that I feel I must step in and instruct.

"Come now Carla, all of us from Code on down have made the occasional typo in the rush to get our thoughts out. Please if this is the best argument you have against me I'm not worried. Lighten up and maybe just maybe you'll have that liberal utopia you're striving for."

That IS all she has.

I mean, seriously indie, it feels somewhat demeaning, doesn't it.
That's the intent.
It's a subtle way to suggest that since you don't spell perfectly, and aren't grammatically eloquent, that your opinion has less merit than others.
It puts one on the defensive right away.
The internet is WORLDWIDE. Some posters here , being from OTHER COUNTRIES may not "do" english well.
Dubsakk is one of those, I suspect. It takes me a bit of headscratching to figure him out, but I usually can. Some of us from the US ( myself included ) can sound like english is our second language.
Doesn't make our thoughts less worthwhile.
The idea is to belittle you, then steer the thread away from the intended message, to cause infighting about minutae.

ur spillin is jest foin dood.

Don't sweat it.

""It's"" ok dreddsnik, Carla is just the run of the mill angry liberal woman. Now if only we could channel that rage into something positive other, than or is it then???? grammer policing maybe "we'd" or is it weed?? be getting somewhere.

I think this is interesting, considering how Bush and his cronies are making comments about how Kerry and his wife got their money. Like it compares.
Ketchup.... murdering over six million people... ketchup.... murdering over six million people

That's very true skippy. It doesn't really compare.
No I don't want Bush back in office.

The problem is, I think the only reason that Kerry hasn't killed 6 million people is that he just hasn't had his chance yet.

That may sound unduly harsh, but who can really say that if Kerry were in office, right now, instead of Bush, that the exact same things wouldn't be happening. Or Gore, Or ANY Dem or Rep.

I am voting independent, as are MANY I know. It's time to clean house.

IndieRockGuy needs to go hang out at www.libertyforum.com

Exclusion of others and their thoughts and ideas could be the biggest mistake our "movement" could ever make. I feel increasing our ranks could only do us well and serve our goals in the long run. We cannot do it alone so I call on anyone "everyone" to join our fight. For the high school student who may not be grammatically correct, to the most enlightened professor. For the pious Jew to the righteous Christian. Rightwing zealots to Leftwing fanatics. Democrats, Republicans, and freethinkers everywhere to join our war against AND THIS MY AFFRONT YOU PINE, but against the Pigmedia. Others may blame the government officials the Hatch's, Berman's, and Bush's. My way is the blast the Pigmedia CEO's Themselves, The Bronfman's, The Eisner's, The Geffen's, and others I've listed above. Let everyone's thoughts be read. Join us!

are atheists ok?

Can freemason's join?

yes carla atheists and indignant ineffectual bounteous effeminates too

Well leflaw as I stated earlier you're welcome to join so I won't have to be worried about you running to your chums Nadine Strossen and Anthony Romero over there at the ACLU or about getting a brow beaten by your pal Abe Foxman. Best let them do what they do best making the world safe from school prayer, Mel Gibson movies, and Nambla.

Maybe the real question, Indie, is who you will go to for your civil rights enforcement if I throw you out of here.

To be or not to be or is it too bee or not too bee. That is the question. (Bullshit)You must stand up and fight any way you can. The playing field is never leveled or fair for that matter. When I see a house divided, I know it will never win anything. Bush, Kennedy and all of the rest of them did the same things, from the railroads, oil, coal in the 1800s to the present day. They were all crooks then and they are crooks now. Just a little different in how they do things. They hide it better. Do you have any Gray Poupon?

My guess would be leflaw that you and your leftist Bolshevik friends would do as you did in Soviet Russia and blast me in the back of the head. Fortunately you do not have the power and never will. I'll see to it. Is this the norm you're bringing to our little website here leflaw? That if you don't like what I type, you're going to throw me out of here? If that's the case then this whole site is a sham and you with it. I hope others don't share your view here Leflaw because if so none of this will last. As for myself bringing up Jewish Power in our media and Music CEO's? You have to ask yourself the question you've always had to ask. Am I an American First, an Independent, or a Jew. Kinda changes for you depending on the political, social, or economic situations. Always has so don't be a hypocrite Leflaw, you can't be anti-RIAA and yet defend your Jewish friends and our enemies like Edgar Bronfman, Weinstein Brothers, David Geffen, and Sumner Redstone. Anyone can do the research and check the names of producers and directors and doing so will not bring about another Holocaust. It's our right to question the corruption of power in this country without being labeled a Nazi, Bigot, racist, whatever. Don't be bullied don't be silenced!

What you mean "our" little website?

By the way, speaking of power, how do you like your new screen name?

grey poupon? but of course!

Is this the open forum you have here leflaw? Is this the leadership you bring to this website by changing peoples names, hacking their accounts, mock other members,and kicking them out all together. Watch out here people freethinking is not welcome. Or others points are view are not welcome!!! How far this site has fallen.

The only thing that's not welcome here is you, because you seem to be an incorrigable asshole. Make like a tree and take off.

BTW, where does it say "open forum" ?

How far this site has fallen. Not one bite.
If you just want to boycott, then do not buy any music. If you want to change things then you have to more than just boycott.

Leflaw you're the shinning example of what I've been typing about. Corruption of power. How many other so-called assholes are you going to throw off this site who do not agree with you?? Is that the standard?? Leflaw a little Jew with some power and mocking and bullying others as a result. No different from the music CEO'S we are fighting. Leflaw the funny thing is if I met a little worm like you on the street you'd be curling up in a fetal position and yet here you're some kind of king. Ironic isn't it. Only on here can a scribe like yourself be anything remotely of a realman. And Pine? I use the word "Pig" because Leflaw's people both are and hate that word the most..

Oh my God, that is really, really funny, leflaw.

We can meet.

Ahhh...to be an administrator...just for a day...

We should sell "admin for an hour" tickets. Its a hoot.

Actually I had completely forgotten about the Pig thing with regards to religion's which forbid it's consumption. I was sorta making fun of the slightly obsessive way you keep repeating it. Now, I understand your reference. The old race baiting bit. A tree falls in the forest and nobody is around..does it make a sound...we're not sure but whatever it does it a Jew's fault, right?

Man, I thought people had grown up a bit and gotten over such silly old prejudices. Well, hate in equals hate out, I guess.

dou...Pathetic_dou...Pathetic_dou...Pathetic_dou...Pathetic_dou... Hey ding bat meet a boy from The Bronx see cement feet, see east river, see bottom, see mud. see drifting current, see Atlantic Ocean, see fishies.
Being jewish has nothing to do with anything. Grow up Ding Bat

Just went for a {{brisk}} dip in Lake Michigan. Have I been vindicated? Seems like the anti-semites have revealed their true colors.

This site has only gone "downhill" because the nuts have found it. Oh for the days of rational discourse.

Looking over all the posts that Indie gal was right. This place has become nothing but Nazi conspiracy nutjobs and neurotic zionists. If only the anti-semites would stick around it would make this poor excuse for a website fun again.

You know I've read many of Indierockguys posts here and have found him to be both enlightening and informative. I have admired both his honesty and his passion for boycott riaa. He was a breath of fresh air on a website that's lacking any real punch. leflaw I noticed your childish behavior and find it wrong to remove IRG. You're just jealous of what I'd call a real man.

"You're just jealous of what I'd call a real man."

I'm going to club you in the head, drag you into my cave by the hair and violate you with a leg of mutton. Now that's what I call a real man.

Btw, here is my favorite recipe for leg of mutton. I hope sharing recipes doesn't make me appear effeminate.

http://www.freerecipe.org/Main_Dish/Meat/Lamb/RoastLegof_hafb.htm

Yeah great site we have slugs like mroop threatening to club women in the head. Is this examples of the liberal utopia?? One would do better in Stalinist Russia.

Lets just change the site from boycott riaa to

boycott free thinkers.com
boycott conservatives.com
boycott republicans.com
boycott bush suporters .com
boycott independent anything.com
boycott music and riaa news.com
boycott sanity .com
boycott any sense of rational .com

When is Stinkmonkey's site opening anyway and where can we join because the leftist loonies have do doubt hijacked this place.

LOL @ mroop's post! I love it ! hahaha!

captdunsel said:
"Let me shock you a little further. You people keep making analogies to Hitler and talking about nazis. What you should be worrying about is a little more insidious. ..[sic]..I'll make you a guarantee right here. next year one of two men will be president of this country and from a strictly political sense you can't tell them apart. Even if the whole nation came to it's senses and voted for say, Ralph Nader (who I am backing by the way) Either bush or kerry would be president. That's right sports fans, YOUR vote means dick."

Captdunsel, thank you for that post. It's the one argument that actually derives from logic instead of emotion. All this intra-party bashing between the two parties does little except save for making good political banter. It's the people who have the money in this country who are able to influence elections, as well as the direction of the U.S.'s policies. Democrats and Republicans both have their hands deep in the pockets of big business.

One pet peeve of mine is when conservatives attempt to smear Democrats through emotional-trigger labels rather than arguing from logic. I'm really tired of liberals being called "communist." Democrats are often associated with "big government;" but, government is rapidly expanding under the Bush administration. Already we have several "new" departments: Department of Homeland Security and National Intelligence Director.
Citizenry have also seen the expansion of governmental restrictions under this administration. These restrictions include the construction of "free speech zones," the interviewing of protesters who are anti-war/anti-government, as well as the collection of citizenry information in databases (see John Poindexter who runs the Total Information Awareness campaign, " http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,56860,00.html ").

We've also seen the introduction of new Bill of Rights gutting-laws such as the Patriot Act. The corporate media also refuses to cover certain issues that will cause them to lose access to certain political leaders. There have also been cases of citizens narcing on people who say negative things about this administration to governmental officials. Sorry, but the last time I heard of restrictions like being implemented was in Communist Russia. (Although I'm sure others will argue that Slavery, WWII, the U.S.'s Red Scare period, the Civil War's sedition laws, & FBI's investigation of the Vietnam War protests also qualified as periods when American rights diminished.)

And sorry: the argument that the government is trying to protect us from terrorists just doesn't pass muster with me. And, before I forget the Democrats... yes, the Democrats have been guilty of the same things - i.e. supporting the president's laws, hands in the pockets of corporate interests, as well as the installation of "free speech" zones at their convention.

Both parties suck: that's why I'm committed to remaining independent. The two party system in the U.S. stinks in my opinion. We have no real choice because both parties are b#tches of the corporate elite.

U.S. citizens are like spectators at a football game. We watch our favorite teams, thinking that our cheers/support somehow changes things. The players on the field battle it out...but, like politics, it doesn't matter who wins our loses: it's just makes one half of the crowd feel better. The real winners are the team owners. The fans pay for the tickets, the players bring in crowds & are paid more money for it. But, the owners reap all the monetary spoils. Same thing applies to America. The common citizen pays the ticket price (taxes), the players are the politicians, and the owners are the wealthy.

Either way, Democrat or Republican, we're all screwed. Ta-ta!

Captdunsel and MerylStryfe:

Your views are compelling.
It's difficult to disagree with you.

Mroop, I guess we found out that satire goes over (or under) the heads of cro-magnons.

Mroop.. ya did it again!!! I say judge a man by his actions. Hitler.. used racism and religious fervor to invade another country with the most advanced military ever. Bush.. used racism and religious ferver to invade another country with the most advanced military ever. Does that equate Bush to Hitler.. for all of you about to scream.. no. Again, so for all of you who skim read to extract verification of your opinion. BUSH IS NOT HITLER!!! But the similarity of the action is bothersome, don't you think??

Meryl.. I do not agree. Why? Because by focusing on the presidency alone, you are missing a VITAL point. That we must change Congress as well. Remember the legislative garbage??? We must gather and vote our interest in congress. And don't forget about state and local issues. By arguing KerryBushKerryBushKerryBush.. we turn off potential voters (maybe that is the plan) Spew enough and the voters will run from the stench.. But, it takes MORE THAN ONE ELECTION to straighten this mess out.. Newt realized this when he brilliantly set about to organize the right from the locals right up to the national level.. We must do the same, or we will feel the foot of "property and corporate rights" on out necks for a long time..

BOYCOTT. EDUCATE. REGISTER. VOTE.

wow, you guys!! If I had a nickel for everyone who was branded "paranoid" for struggling for their freedoms and rights in this country.." Shucks.. if I had a nickel..

Just a thought, while reviewing my old World History textbook I read that the Nazi party was actually the 'National Socialist Party". Thus, one could state that Hitler was a socialist being head of same party.

So does being a socialist, put one in the same league as A. Hitler?

Date: August 28, 2004 @ 10:01 AM
Meryl.. I do not agree. Why? Because by focusing on the presidency alone, you are missing a VITAL point. That we must change Congress as well. Remember the legislative garbage??? We must gather and vote our interest in congress. And don't forget about state and local issues. By arguing KerryBushKerryBushKerryBush.. we turn off potential voters (maybe that is the plan) Spew enough and the voters will run from the stench..

Jazzy, please reread what I posted. I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with my statement that our votes do make a difference..or what. I wasn't focusing on changing the presidency, since I do not believe that the two party system is the answer. I believe politicians from both parties are corrupt. I also believe that both parties interests are controlled by the people contributing to their re-election campaigns (i.e. corporate interests.)
I criticized both parties, not just Democrats or Republicans, if you reread my statement clearly. I wasn't even supporting either Kerry or Bush, since I'm voting for neither come fall.

And about the Congressional Mess, Jazzy, I think it's not only going to take voting people out of office, but reforming the system itself to make sure that Congress is not as likely to be influenced by corporate interests or their lobbyist. (Currently lobbyists from major corporations are responsible for raising money for some candidates since the soft money loophole closed.)

leflaw wrote:
"Mroop, I guess we found out that satire goes over (or under) the heads of cro-magnons."

Hmm, a bit presumptuous if not condescending, don't you think? Remember, it is likely there are readers who perceive but may not choose to respond to a given post for any number of reasons. Not everything gets commented upon.
Actually, I appreciated mroop's satire; I have a soft spot in my armor for subtle humor.
And, for goodness sake, please don't ANYONE let lack of written responses deter you from posting something funny around here; I say (along with pinemikey) that we need a little comic relief occasionally.

(P.S. To a potential detractor: I know, frivolity technically is not being "relevant" to the crux of the issue of the moment -- but, hey, even I admit we've gotta have an exception every now and then. It doesn't hurt to loosen up once in awhile.)

On second review, I see that there WAS a comment on mroop's satire (and that person misinterpreted it).
But one flower does not a spring make.

Mike 2212 :

Beware of political labels. They are always a misdesciption, to a certain extent, especially when they confuse politics and economics, which often overlap anyway. Hitler had certain "socialist" (a label in itself - containing utopianism, anarchism, anarchosyndicalism, etc. - google "John Stuart Mill" "Bakunin" ). programs, but "National Socialism" was virualantly anti-communist (notwithstanding Hitlers later pact with Stalin.)

The political philosophy that best fits Nazi Germany is Fascism, which was DEFINED by Mussolini as CORPORATISM - THE MERGER OF STATE AND CORPORATION. "Corporation" was defined by Descartes ( I believe - I have to check the source) as "a collection of like minded individuals" in relation to a specific goal.
Hence, IG Farben and IBM both played their roles in the holocaust ( which of course, never happened .

My own world view is follow the buck and the rich multigenerational families, and their attempts to keep and expand their wealth. That's how the U.S.'s enemies think. That's how Bin Laden thinks - he is FROM ONE OF THOSE FAMILIES! That's why he is seen in the muslim world as both a hero and a traitor, depending on which side of that fence you are on.

Some of the multigenerational families go back hundreds and hundreds of years, and there are always the "nouveau riche" that come along.

Mix families and religion and you get anything from the Hundred Years War to Guess Who's coming to dinner.

My own politics are generally libertarian (loosely - leave me the f*uck alone), but for some reason, I keep getting confused with liberal democrats, especially by the educationally challenged, and certain republicans, who I call "respublicans" (from the Latin), and occasionally by jew-baiters.

Like I gotta be lectured how the US media has lots of Jews in it. Duh. Or that their are lots of gays in the music industry. I got eyes. I got ears.
But Andrew Lack and Michael Eisner don't own their companies. They are part of the management class, not the ruling class. Walter Yetnkoff never made a dime running CBS records until after he engineered a sale to Sony. And their are lots of gays everywhere, especially in North Jersey and New York.

I am thinking of instituting a ban on jew, muslim, gay, wasp bashing on the grounds that 1) its stupid 2) and it obfuscates what I see as the real debate 3) and I own the sites.

Now, what should I say when I am accused of discriminating against Nazi's?

I confess.

www.politicalcompass.org

Anybody have good clipon spell checker program

like the song says Bush is fuckin us

spell checker: just get carla

I'm just happy that we are going to elect a really great Senator

My spell checking advice: first compose your long rant in MS Word; spellcheck; then copy and paste into the reply box.

Hmm, leflaw wrote:
"I am thinking of instituting a ban on jew, muslim, gay, wasp bashing on the grounds that 1) it's stupid 2) and it obfuscates what I see as the real debate 3) and I own the sites.
[My comment: Taken at face value, he has this right.]

At another forum, leflaw unilaterally changed a poster's user name and threatened to throw him/her off the site.
[My comment: Taken at face value, he has this right.]

The IRONY in this for some of us is the predictable tendency of persons holding rights to property -- real estate, software or other "intellectual" property, etc. -- to use whatever power they accrue by law or derive by expedience to maintain or solidify their inherent positional advantage.
The more the property impacts others, the greater the power; the greater the power, the greater the tendency to . . . well, I'll let you fill in the blanks.
And I doubt that you care for me to extend this concept beyond generalities!

No, I'm not advocating communism or even socialism. I am, however, like a voice crying in the wilderness, prone to point out how human nature is human nature, no matter what side of a contentious fence you happen to be on. And, for the record, I am NOT for the RIAA!

What the hell, just call me the ornery, recalcitrant detractor who can really stir things up once in awhile.
But, be it known that someday I will draw my last breath gasping the word "relevant" anyway...so there!

carla you better pace yourself , your going to have 4 more years of hate spewing

you're

does it really matter :
Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in
waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht
the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a
total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae
the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a
wlohe.

Fcuknig amzanig huh?

P.S. I had a smiley face following my comment about my being one who stirs things up once in awhile, so perhaps I'm insulated somewhat in that respect.
But, actually, I am truly fascinated by human foibles -- in myself, in others, in CORPORATIONS, in GOVERNMENTS, and especially in CORPORATION-controlled governments (like the U.S. of A.) [end of P.S. Note: no smiley face here, heh-heh.]

Juess Csriht!

lol leflaw

Relevant one, if individualism is your point, great! My personal credo is DON'T TREAD ON ME. I'm sure we can find a way to co-exist.

as far as carla correcting me i could care less im almost 50 years old and never learned to type im lucky to get a thought down without having to worry about how the grammer is so dont waste your time correcting me

Leflaw, you're right; individualism is the key.
We can both touch each end of an olive branch; we can co-exist; no problem. We're both important in the over-all scheme of things, just as everyone else is -- and we all have a vital role to play in life.

My credo: Once we heed the call for relevance in life, only then are we truly prepared to play our part.

Thanks.

My idea of "Relevance": Truth/Meaning/Significance

Oops, my omission--Accountability is relevant in life too.

burner, we are all e e cummings here.

Burner that demo is fascinating and hilarious to boot.

I try and spell properly as much as I can. It helps that I never learned to type and I look at every word as I look up and down from the keyboard to the screen.

There is a difference between an ignorant schmuck who consistently and irritatingly misspells and brutalizes syntax as he spouts off and someone who most of the time spells correctly and like any normal person, lets slip an occasional oops here and there.

hee hee, and those are the people I correct

Using "your" to mean "you are" isn't just a misspelling, it demonstrates a lack of knowledge that "you're" is a contraction, short for "you are."

Same with its and it's.

I do not correct people who make typogragical errors (often made in cutting and pasting during editing) or whose brains are racing ahead of their fingers.

And my particular pet peeve (which occurs in spoken speech by otherwise educated people of a certain age group (under 40) and aggravates me no end) when someone uses "I" as an object, when "me" is the correct usage.

And burner, thanks for the advice to pace myself because, "your going to have 4 more years of hate spewing,"
but you'd be better off looking to your own hate spewing and not concerning yourself about me.

Leflaw: I agree that Nazi Germany had more in common with Fascist Italy than Socialist France during the 1930s. However, one can also make comparisons between Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, and the People's Republic China. In all three countries you had a cult of personality around the leader. I'm referring to A. Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Lao Tse Tung. Each country had an active secret police that reuthlessly repressed any dissension. Germany=Gestapo, USSR= NKVD or later the KGB, and the Chinese Scret Police. All three countires repressed ethnic groups, Nazi= Jews, USSR= Jews, Cossacks, Muslims, PRC= Tibetans. What I'm trying to say is that the great socialist nations (USSR and PRC) had more in common with the Nazis. Also, Stalin had planned to go after the Jews following the Second World War but died before he could ship the Jews to Eastern Siberia.

One other point; the belief that the Jews were in control of the world's money supply did not orginate with Nazi Germany. During the Middle Ages, Jewish families were money lenders to the kings of Europe who protected them as long as it was convient. Pograms as well as discrimination against the jews were a common event in Eastern Europe as far back as the early Middle Ages.

so has the issue been obfuscated enough yet?

I love that word.

No capt, it's only obfuscated to the obtusely obdurate in an oddly obscure way.

Sorry 'bout dat...I should obturate this "o" procession right now.

I do believe it's been obliterated, pinemikey!!

Mike, its all at politicalcompass.org.

Left and right are economic terms, not political. You have authoritarians on both sides of the spectrum.

from politicalcompass.org

A Few Words about "The Extreme Right"

Once you accept that left and right are merely measures of economic position, the "extreme right" refers to extremely liberal economics that may be practised by social authoritarians or social libertarians.

Similarly, the "extreme left" identifies a strong degree of state economic control, which may also be accompanied by liberal or authoritarian social policies.

It's muddled thinking to simply describe the likes of the British National Party as "extreme right". The truth is that on issues like health, transport, housing, protectionism and globalisation, their economics are left of Labour, let alone the Conservatives. It's in areas like police power, military power, school discipline, law and order, race and nationalism that the BNP's real extremism - as authoritarians - is clear.

This mirrors France's National Front. In running some local governments, they reinstated certain welfare measures which their Socialist predecessors had abandoned. Like similar authoritarian parties that have sprung up around Europe, they have come to be seen in some quarters as champions of the underdog, as long as the underdog isn't Black, Arab, gay or Jewish ! With mainstream Social Democratic parties adopting - reluctantly or enthusiastically - the new economic libertarian orthodoxy (neo-liberalism), much of their old economic baggage has been pinched by National Socialism. It's becoming the only sort of socialism on offer. Election debates between mainstream parties are increasingly about managerial competence rather than any clash of vision and economic direction.
In the United States, the voices of dissent over unfettered market forces (ie extreme right economics) are heard from social authoritarians like Pat Buchanan as well as social liberals like Ralph Nader.

As an example, take a look at the ground that the main English parties in the UK's 2003 local elections (May 1) occupied in reality. The difference between the BNP and the Greens in economics isn't great, but there's a huge gap on the social scale. Neither scale, however, reveals enormous distances between the Conservatives and New Labour.

Wow! What a fun read this thread has been.

Shmoo, of Electric Gypsy
Support Local and Independent Music!

I think so, too, Shmoo.

Isn't it nice that all the evidence is neatly locked away in the National Archives.

Don't worry about the proof from the National Archives - prove this article was ever published by John Buchanan
from The New Hampshire Gazette

"burner97119 " I almost pissed my pants!! That was classic.

BTW - This is the internet... a new style of shorthand has evolved for it. Who gives a rat's ass if someone uses "your" instead of "you're", or "its" instead of "it's". If life isn't complete enough for you without EVERY little detail being just perfect, tough shit, not eveyone walks on water like you do, Miss Perfect. Now, go nail yourself to your cross.

Aw, shucks, if it makes Carla's day to swing her "grammar hammer" every once in awhile - I guess we can indulge her now and then . . .

. . . the key being "every now and then", heh-heh.

Oops! Improper usage of the ellipse!
[buzzer sounds; gong reverberates]