posted by pinemikey
Link at: http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/08/06/library.cdsettlement.ap/index.html

OutKast' not allowed in Kansas libraries

Friday, August 6, 2004 Posted: 7:41 PM EDT (2341 GMT)

KANSAS CITY, Missouri (AP) -- The Kansas attorney general has withheld more than 1,600 compact discs from distribution to state libraries because officials determined the albums promote violence or illegal activity, records show.

The albums removed by Attorney General Phill Kline's office were part of 51,000 discs given to Kansas as part of a nationwide settlement to resolve allegations of price fixing.

The confiscated CDs included recordings by 25 musicians, including rap artists such as OutKast and Notorious B.I.G., rock bands Rage Against the Machine and Stone Temple Pilots, and even older acts such as Lou Reed and the 1980s experimental group Devo.

The list of albums was obtained by The Associated Press last week through an open-records request.

The American Civil Liberties Union said the decision amounted to censorship.

"What he's doing is enforcing his concept of decency on libraries around the state of Kansas, and that's not his business," said Dick Kurtenbach, executive director of the ACLU in Kansas and western Missouri.

Whitney Watson, a spokesman for Kline, said the attorney general would not discuss the screening of the CDs but said the decision to remove some albums was made to ensure state officials were not disseminating objectionable material.

Watson said the office's consumer-protection and antitrust division vetted the list. In some cases, they were familiar enough with the albums to determine if they had questionable content. In others, they looked at Internet databases of lyrics.

"We don't have the manpower to look at every album and every song lyric, but we feel we removed most of the albums that did not mesh with the values of a majority of Kansans," she said.

Kansas is one of 40 states receiving the free CDs for public libraries as part of a 2002 court settlement with the music industry over claims of CD price-fixing.

Attorneys general in several other states also have screened their CDs, often removing controversial artists or albums including explicit lyrics. Indiana Attorney General Steve Carter removed 5,300 discs, or 5 percent of the 107,000 his state was scheduled to receive.

The Kansas Library Association, which advocates for public libraries, said it had no objection to the attorney general's actions.

"This was very similar to what libraries do all the time," said Rosanne Siemens, the group's executive director. "It wasn't so much an issue of taking things out but determining what would be best. They did libraries a big favor by selecting these CDs because there's no way libraries could have said what they wanted."

[ We all knew about this pricefixing penalty, but we also all know the record labels have made the settlement a joke with essentially doing a Columbia House dumping of their least selling artists but throwing in a small number of "headline" names to make it seem like a big sacrifice to them]

Send in professor Harold Hill.

A good clue to whether or not this was a bad decision is where the ACLU stands on it. They said it was a bad decision, so you can rest assured there's nothing wrong with what happened. Libraries aren't required to keep everything that they're given. Besides, libraries are for educational/informational purposes, not outkast. If they do have to keep and give out anything they're given, then I can't wait for all that free porn.. who's with me

"Attorneys general in several other states also have screened their CDs, often removing controversial artists or albums including explicit lyrics. Indiana Attorney General Steve Carter removed 5,300 discs, or 5 percent of the 107,000 his state was scheduled to receive."

let's name the amendmets with the state attorney!

uhh...
2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.....

did i forget a few... aww who cares... die evil "controversial music"

Outkast have become outcast.

Book burnings anyone?
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Hey Leflaw, you said not to be too tough on Sherm. Here's your chance, Leflaw, let's hear you defend of your son's rationale in hating the ACLU.

A protection seal on book is reminded it
as that on a state right. Deviced motion
was gotten as like status of it.What could
be said if the one get 60 % and another
one get a straight.

"A good clue to whether or not this was a bad decision is where the ACLU stands on it. They said it was a bad decision, so you can rest assured there's nothing wrong with what happened."

Oh with logic like that how could believe anything else. HMMMMMMMMMM, Maybe the attorney general should be, hmmmmm, I don't know, be fighting crime, making sure the innocent aren't convicted instead being a librarian. Does he work at Wendys too?

Damn, now if they would just keep those books about evolution out of the libraries we would be really doing something positive.

I've found that the ACLU is probably one of the best assets we have in fighting the powers that want to rob us of our rights and liberties.

I like them.
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This is also the same state with a school system which banned the word evolution from school texts. They still teach it but aren't allowed to say it, I guess.

I would trust a librarian to make sure underage patrons didn't get inappropriate material long before some political hack state AG.

"The Kansas Library Association, which advocates for public libraries, said it had no objection to the attorney general's actions.

"This was very similar to what libraries do all the time," said Rosanne Siemens, the group's executive director. "It wasn't so much an issue of taking things out but determining what would be best. They did libraries a big favor by selecting these CDs because there's no way libraries could have said what they wanted.""

This statement is not made by any librarian I know. Any librarian worth their salt is trying to get more in and find storage for what they can't fit and set up a plan to rotate what they can't fit so that it gets to the people. If anything they want local control about what is on their shelves NOT some state attorney.

"We don't have the manpower to look at every album and every song lyric, but we feel we removed most of the albums that did not mesh with the values of a majority of Kansans," she said.

That is kinda disturbing. I can see the other side of things too but.. are we just going to start censoring everything the 'majority' doesn't like from everyone else? No one is forcing anyone to listen to someones music if they don't want to hear it, right? Seems like book burning to me..

Libraries think they have a right, nay a duty, to give any material to any patron, no matter the age or age-appropriateness. This is the default position of the ALA (American Library Association).

They think they are standing up for a principle of freedom of speech. And, in a way they are. The problem is that they think that right trumps current community standards or the right of parents to limit access to certain materials.

The Kansas Library Assn. is an anomaly. Most librarians would love to put explicit, vulgar, perverted, hateful, and subversive materials in the hands of children as early as possible. Because it will prove how "progressive" they are.

And how many libraries have you gone to, auto? All the ones I've ever been to in two countries have strict guidelines for materiel sign out. Blanket statements like yours only show the level of ignorance that falsely pious people put out there. Freedom for all except you , you , you and you over there.

How DARE libraries make information available to citizens for free!

Burn 'em down and let GWB sort through the ashes. The never of these librarians thinking they have a right to stand up for free speech. Next thing you know, people will think that cops should have a warrant to search your house.

Whatdya think this is , a free country or something?
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I actually live in Kansas.

Pinemikey, the Kansas School Board's decison concerning evolution never ever banned teaching evolution in Ks. It only slightly de-emphasized the theory, allowing the other theory to also be taught, if so desired by the teacher. Since then we have a new state board of education, and it is on their agenda to reverse that de-emphasizing, if not already done. This was misrepresented by the press in the entire nation, and was fodder for late night jokes on the telly. I have a good friend who teaches science, and she told me nothing changed in her classroom. Nothing.

Phil Kline is highly controversial. And it is not the norm for Ks librarians to roll over and play dead.

In my small town, on any given day, you can walk into my library, and if you stroll behind the folks using the libraries' computers, you can view porn in plain sight. This has been complained about, but we do not censor in Kansas, in spite of what Phil Kline may be attempting.

Rest assured, if the aclu is involved, we can all get our copies of Outcast, and whatever else is being dumped in that settlement. Personally, when my daughter first brought home Outkast, I liked them. And then I saw them on the MTV music awards, and I said, yes...they are just as weird as I used to be back in my day.

Censorship cuts both ways, whatever your view...if you want your view available, then tolerate the other guy's view.

What I want to know is, how did they get THOSE CDs? Our libraries here are dealing with settlements like 500 copies of "A Celine Dion Christmas" and thousands of other CDs that no one will ever check out but that they're not allowed to just give away. Crap that they still have to process and catalog, just to be able to (maybe!) sell them at the annual book sale.
On another note, the woman who orders for our libraries isn't even allowed to order the edited versions of CDs, because apparently even people who listen to violent or obscene lyrics have rights.
I think Kansas should look into trading their CDs with Ohio. : D

Wasn't Dorothy from Kansas?

I think all educational courses should be geared toward giving kids the proverbial heart, brain, and courage. Remember, the Wizard did not GIVE them things they did not already have, merely material objects substantiating they
had them. It's all in the mind.

A high school or college diploma does not make you an intelligent or educated person...merely someone who can take orders, perform well on tests, and show up at a designated place and do it over and over for years. To this extent, education is a job you pay to do.

I think it is fine for schools to teach both evolution AND so-called creation science. They are both such flawed systems of thought that a very good examination for the proof of either will leave one shaking their head.

I am NOT saying by "flawed" that they are necessarily false. Punctuated evolution for example, has become an integral part of their explanation...but to believe that a series of random mutations can lead from something like a planaria to a modern human, makes no more sense than creation science.

Are certain species selectively enhanced by characteristics either morphological or physiological to survive, when those lacking these may be killed off by disease or predators? Of course. But, the teleogical evidence I assert is lacking for any steady progress from bugs to man.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/teleology-biology/

Sorry for completely avoiding proper commentary on the topic. I got lost.

Like Death4u2, I'd have no problem if creationism was taught in schools. However, I believe that "Creationism" should be taught in a theological course to place this "science" in its proper context. If educators teach Creationism to elementary school children, then other religions' beliefs about humanity's origins should be included.

I don't believe many educators will treat other religions with equal merit, however. Teachers also have religious/social biases and some probably give more weight/deference to Judeo-Christianity. Some children will feel uncomfortable and marginalized, if the religious theories that are emphasized by the schools differ from the ones their parents are teaching. That's why it's necessary to maintain the balance between church and state.

I am Christian, but I think it's a disservice that children are not being taught evolution. Georgia recently banned evolution being taught at the state level (including elementary and college levels, if I'm not mistaken.) I realize that Darwin's evolutionary theories are being successfully challenged. (Please read Matt Ridley's "The Red Queen" for more information concerning this.) Evolutionary theories still have historical/scientific relevance and should be taught to children.
The Bible was not meant to be Science and Science was not meant to be "faith."

People should not be forced what to believe in -whatever faith they ascribe to -- or don't ascribe to. Why can't parents enroll their children in a private religious school, or teach their children at home their religious beliefs? Public schools are "public" for a reason. They are meant to cater to school aged children of a variety of backgrounds.

If we deny children the right to learn about science and its origins because they threaten some, is it no wonder that the American education system is falling behind its counterparts?

"And how many libraries have you gone to, auto? All the ones I've ever been to in two countries have strict guidelines for materiel sign out. Blanket statements like yours only show the level of ignorance that falsely pious people put out there. Freedom for all except you , you , you and you over there."

pinemikey, this is a local issue -- parents have complained that the library refuses to restrict checking out R rated movies to children who ordinarily would not be allowed into a theater to see an R rated film without a parent. And the libraries have vociferously defended this policy, or lack of policy.

I have spent quite a fair amount of time reading librarians' blogs, and also checking out the official statements of the ALA.

Could you specify which libraries you refer to, and exactly what strict policies they had about materials? That would be very interesting.

Here, if the kid has an adult card, which any kid can get at age 12 I think, they can get any materials. Period. And we don't live that far from Kansas.

I don't see what piousness has to do with it. It is about libraries usurping the authority of parents -- who ARE legally responsible for their children's upbringing -- the library is not.

Darwinism is a widely accepted theory, and as such children should be taught about it. What some people object to is that there are problems with the theory -- it can't explain all the things it is invoked to explain -- but these problems are not generally allowed as part of the curriculum.

I am a creationist, in the sense that I believe life did not originate and proliferate without the helping hand of the Deity. Design is all around, and randomness does not account for the intricacy and interconnectedness of all the biochemical processes and interactions that occur on the level of cells, tissues, organs, and systems. Couple this with huge gaps in the fossil record where transitional forms ought to appear (according to Darwin), and we have the makings of another scientific revolution.

Either science will have to admit that there is a Designer to account for the design (could be a non-God designer, like the monolith aliens in 2001), or that there is some other naturalistic explanation. Random mutation and natural selection are simply not powerful enough tools to create the required amount of evolutionary change that has been witnessed over the past 3-4 billion years, especially in the Cambrian explosion and the most recent 500 million years.

But none of this is taught to kids in high school and college, in most cases. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for there to be honest debate in the classroom about origins. Honestly, much of the teaching is slanted, and some of it is downright fraudulent. See Jonathan Wells' book Icons of Evolution for evidence.

Look, I have no problem teaching religious theories of our origins, but we can not favor one over the other, or that will get us into state-establishment of religion and the government telling us what beliefs are and are not allowed.
If we teach the Jewish version of creation (which has since been copped by Christians and Muslims), then we must also teach the Buddhist version, the Navaho version, the Zoroastrian version, the Gaian version, the Scientologist version, and whatever version is propounded by the adherents of the Church of Satan. And, we must present all of these as equally plausible alternatives. (Scientology says we are descended from clams, by the way - just an observation).

Anyway, this is pretty far afield. I'm feeling for Outkast - sad that Kansas kids should be deprived of the moral lesson inherent in 'I'm Sorry Ms. Jackson.'

Thank you for mentioning the book The Red Queen, Meryl Stryfe. That book set me off in me a fascination for genetics some seven years ago. I will mod this thread back up to the top so that we can discuss the book "What's The Matter with Kansas?" I did not heretofore know that any other place such as Kansas outdid the embarrassing ignorance of my home state Virginia nor Utah. But it appears that Senator Brownback of Kansas is even more cynical than Orrin Hatch in the use of religious flim-flam to inflame the dirty mob.

This topic then is about the breath-taking ignorance you religious-wackos spew about science. You are being used for POLITICAL purposes. I use that word deliberately, because your own well-intentioned morals or religious scruples are being distorted for earthly ambitions by people who have no concept of the higher plane for which you pine and sigh. That's all fine and dandy, just spare us your particular superstition in governing the country.

It is truly pathetic that Darwin can be exhumed from the grave when the Monkey Trial was decided in 1927. America undergoes wide swings of fanatic religious revivals every 100 years. Have you heard of Aimee Semple McPherson? How about the Salem Witch trials? How about the persecution of Galileo? Can you spell "sanctimonious hypocrisy?"

I promise you that myself and Code Warrior (who is a doctor after all) have the citations well in hand to debate this subject. Be prepared to back up your pathetic attacks on science, because so far this forum features people who apparently can't read. You think this is rough? Try this bullshit in slash dot.

Be advised that not one scientist (repeat: NOT ONE) anywhere in the world will support your belief in the Intelligent Clockmaker. Hey, if you find solace burning incense and mumbling to whatever voodoo sock-monkey makes you happy (see animation on front of page), that's fine with me. But peer review amongst scientists demands empirical and objective methods. Be prepared to back up your assertions.

Now THIS is censorship, which the government has no business performing. Let the local librarians decide, or restrict explicit materials to adults. No laws were broken, no need for John Law to stick his nose where it doesn't belong. If my local library had been censored when I was young, I never would have been exposed to the great blues & jazz masters, who were considered "profane" by many bluenoses at the time. Not to mention the drug-soaked rock-n-roll in later years.

Wow...so many topics and so little time. Both my parents were ministers, and my education has been in the field of science, so I can appreciate a little from both sides. One thing I stand foursquare against is state sponsored censorship. It is the hallmark of a fascist state. With regard to the notion of natural selection or evolution, we must understand that, contrary to popular belief, there are differences of opinion. Let's take Alfred Russel Wallace v. Charles Darwin. The first full explanation of what has been referred to as "Darwin's theory" was actually written by Alfred Russel Wallace.
http://www.tdtone.org/darwin/Evlutn1.htm
"Alfred Russel Wallace's position on the true cause of evolution is radically different as will be seen below, involving the possible introduction of an unknown (spiritual) force in the entire matter. He raises questions about the entire issue which have not been refuted, are almost diametrically opposed to those of Darwin, and are seldom discussed, to this day; what in effect he is saying, is that the true scientific "origin" of species was unknown at his time.

In as much as the entire educational system seems to be pretty much captivated with the idea that the Darwinian thesis of Natural Selection is the "cause" of evolution, the question of whether evolution, as it is currently believed, should be taught in schools is also discussed."

Now, truth be told , ALL attempted explanations for how modern man came to be, are theories, since we have no absolute proof that stands alone without assumptions and faith. The fact that you had modern looking Cro Magnon people, with larger brains than modern Europeans, living at the same time with Neaderthals, is somewhat of a conundrum to me. We have not found a pre-Cro-Magnon man or women to show that they evolved from any other species. In the record, these modern, six foot tall people, who painted magnificently, clothed themselves, etc., just appear from nowhere. It is generally accepted that the Neaderthals were NOT a precursor to Cro-Magnon, and there were too many structural differences between the two to make one merely a mutation from the other. Stephen Gould has focused on the fact that the fossil record rarely shows gradualism in the development of a species.

Now, as to creation science. Creation science, despite the protestations of certain groups to the contrary, is religion. It accepts on faith that a Supreme Being, by whatever method, caused man to be created, and that woman was created from man. This last tenet runs headlong into evolution, which has tended, in this "chicken or egg" scenario, to propose that the first human was female (remeber "Lucy"?).

I agree that if a relgious view of creation were taught in schools, it would not be proper to ONLY include a Christian view. It would be proper to include Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, and every other major religon.

But, the fact is, education has long been about preaching dogma, and not offering alternative views. The history I was taught in school back in the 50s, was a joke. I knew at that age that it was a Western view based on what the settlers wanted written. Native Americans were depicted as backward, ignorant, bloodthirsty natives that the brave white settlers defeated so the land could be "developed". Next lie please.

Health education was monopolized by the notions of people like Pastuer, Koch, and the rest. Did we get to be taught the theories of Antoine Béchamp ? Of course not.
http://www.euroamericanhealth.com/antoin.html

Did we learn about Claude Bernard, professor at the Sorbonne and member of the Academy of Science? No. And that's a shame.
"The 20th century honored Pasteur and gave him the dubious title of "Father of the Germ Theory of Disease." How accurate is the theory? According to what we have learned and how the grant money and research thrusts were directed in the last century, the germ was "everything." It was necessary to identify it, the little alien organism, and to attribute to it all the pathological consequences that people suffer when they are ill. To eradicate disease, we needed bigger and bigger cannons to shoot tinier and tinier microbes.

However, Claude Bernard, professor at the Sorbonne and member of the Academy of Science, maintained that the "terrain" is everything. Neither man, Bernard a physiologist and Pasteur (1822-1895) a chemist, denied the existence of microorganisms. The question is how they behave and whether or not they invade from outside (Pasteur) or are mainly life forms that behave certain ways under certain circumstances and less pathogenically under other circumstances.

If this theory had been accepted, medicine would have sought relief for suffering by healing the patient rather than attempting to destroy the disease. It is truly the debates in Paris that precipitated the lamentable medicine that is still not sufficiently questioned even by those who admit its limitations.

The crux of the terrainists is that microbes change depending on the environment in which they exist. The school of medicine that derives from this theory works with pleomorphism rather than static concepts of microorganisms. Pleomorphists use live blood rather than blood that has been fixed and stained for use in electron microscopes. If one works with movement and change, diseases do not appear to be "carved in stone" the way they do when something is frozen in a moment of time. The thoughtforms that build around such theories are also more flexible. For me, the tragedy of Pasteur and his public relations triumphs can only be measured in terms of life: the countless lives of animals that have been sacrificed because of residuals of fear probably tracing back centuries to the Bubonic Plague . . . and humans who have also suffered from the injection of morbid substances into their bodies and the compromised immunity that comes from tampering with the immune system in this manner rather than in some more wholesome manner. I realize that if one has never thought about such matters before, what I am writing now sounds like the ranting and raving of an iconoclast, but I am not crazy and the Pasteur was not anyone to celebrate. The final debate was not with Bernard but Antoine Bechamp who died without being able to set the records straight. Bechamp felt that disease begins from within and that the conditions inside the body determine how the microbes will adapt to the "terrain." Physiological conditions are derivative of the pleomorphic processes: change the terrain and the symptoms and disease also change. Countless studies prove that pleomorphism is correct. The conclusive studies are those involving bacteria and viruses. If one has viruses and uses a filter, the bacteria would not be able to pass the filter (because they are larger than viruses) so what has been filtered can only contain viruses, but this is not the case. Bacteria appears despite the care taken to remove it, proving that viruses mutate into bacteria and vice versa depending on the environment." [ from http://www.cancersalves.com/articles/terrain.html ]

The point of course is that education in this country (I haven't been educated in other countries so I can only address this one) is governed by monopoly by orthodoxy.

And, people have been decrying for some time, that the American system is falling far behind other countries in educating students. Certainly, I don't have the answers for that. I spent my first four years in parochial school (Episcopalian). When I went into public school, I was horrified at how backward everything seemed, and yes, we were taught about evolution during our first four years of parochial school).

In a non-sequitur, I just finished watching an hour of COPS on Fox, the glorification of jackbooted thugs with a gun, swaggering around intimidating poor people.

Our country is becoming a police state, if it is not already, and, the powers in power, want to turn it into a theocracy as well. To rile against theocratic states like Iran and rale against the religious fundamentalists and jihad, seems pale in comparison to Bush and his cadre of fundamentalists engaging in a preemptive shock and awe against a country that had nothing really to do with 9/11.

Back to the topic of the thread though.
"KANSAS CITY, Missouri (AP) -- The Kansas attorney general has withheld more than 1,600 compact discs from distribution to state libraries because officials determined the albums promote violence or illegal activity, records show."

Wanna talk about works of art that promote violence? How about the Bible.
God gets pissed at Sodom and Gomorrah and kills entire cities. Samson kills Phillistines with the jawbone of an ass . The bible is full of violence.
The Q'uran is also full of violence and exhortations to violence.

Jesus said to sell your cloak and buy a sword, and talks about setting brother against brother.

and
""We don't have the manpower to look at every album and every song lyric, but we feel we removed most of the albums that did not mesh with the values of a majority of Kansans," she said."

Well, well, well...now how did they decide what does or does not mesh with the values of a majority of Kansans, and when did the inability to "mesh" mean that a work, or even a person, must be banned. This is intolerable.

This thread is not about creation v. evolution. Freedom means the ability to be exposed to all kinds of ideas. You don't beat bad ideas by banning them. You beat bad ideas with good ideas.

This country is NOT a friggin' democracy (two wolves and a sheep voting on whats for dinner)...it's a constitutional republic, which means protection for unpopular people AND ideas.

We are headed directly into the hell of fascism if something doesn't happen.

Thats actually a good thing in my opinion.

If you listen to some of these rappers, lots of thier music promotes sex, drugs, conformity (You have to be like this to be cool rhetoric), etc...

Just come to where I live, and you will see what I mean. Outkast, Notorious BIG, and other rappers are not educational and belong nowhere in a library.

In a overpriced record store, go nuts.

The only censorship over what a kid reads/sees/experiences should come from the parent or guardian. If you don't want YOUR kid checking out certain materials from the library, get off your ass and go to the library with them. Otherwise, your kid's mind is FAIR GAME to whomever (good or bad) attempts to fill it.

NUFF SAID!

Shmoo, of Electric Gypsy
Raise your kids yourself, don't expect/require society to do it for you unless you approve of that society 100 percent.

Geez people, get a CLUE!

Hello! These are RIAA CDs they're talking about, and personally I'm happy to hear that someone is saying no to adding these filthy things to their library. Someone buy Phill Kline a pizza! Then donate some nice indie CDs to your local library, and we win! Boycott RIAA!

I'm really tired of the rhetoric that the confiscation of music from libraries is "a good thing" just because someone doesn't like rap or hip hop. It's just an indication that people aren't really reading in-depth. It wasn't just Outkast or Notorious that was targeted to be taken out of libraries. It was also groups like Devo, Rage Against the Machine, Lou Reed and Stone Temple Pilots. Why were they targeted?

It's laughable that critics of rap/hip hop argue that hip hop "promotes sex, drugs, and conformity" when the same may be said about any genre of music - - past or present. What about certain jazz songs which talked about drinking/boozing. What about some Country music which talks about sex, boozing or beating women? And let's not forget the 80s with the scantily- dressed women with big hair dancing in hard rock videos. Hard rock, and even some rock acts today promote sex, violence, and drugs - - yet no one raises a stink when they do so. But, there's no secret as to why there is the double standard.

Anyway, people have different standards of decency. Again, standards of "decency" should not be enforced by at state or federal government level. Everything enforced at a government level becomes a slippery slope. What's offensive to one group, may not be offensive to another group, and so on. Suddenly, new laws are enacted that expands the right of "government" and infringe on my rights as an individual.

You might not like certain styles of music -- but too bad -- that's your personal preference. There are books that I find personally offensive like "The Bell Curve," or Dinesh D'Souza's ilk, yet they still remain on circulation shelves, untouched by censors. Even "Mein Kempf" by Hitler remains in most libraries. But these books remain untouched, as they should. Libraries are meant for free exchange of ideas - - whether they're good ideas or bad ideas is not up to the state to decide. It's left up to the individual.


My personal preference of "what is offensive" shouldn't infringe on another's freedom. Remember the saying, "If you don't like the show, just change the channel." Same thing applies to libraries: "If you don't like it, just don't check it out from a library." Others should still have the right to do so if they so choose. They shouldn't be denied the chance to check out this music if they so desire.

Since when is it Big Brother's job to parent? You may not want your kids getting their hands on certain items -- but, that's your responsibility as a parent. Libraries already cater to children since there are "age appropriate" sections in most public library facilities.

I used to work as a circulation clerk in a public library for several years. There are much worse things to worry about rather than whether someone checks out an Outkast album. You'd be surprised at some of the nefarious characters, who look like grandfatherly or scholarly types, that browse in library shelves. Yet no one seems to enforce standards of "deceny" on their book/internet browsing habits within libraries. Why is this the case?

I believe that the measure of a free society depends on the ability of people to choose what they'd like to say, think, read, etc; without fear of retribution. And they shouldn't have to fear the state limiting their choices.

This whole decency thing is bogus. I think that the Kansas Attorney General might be cowtowing under RIAA pressure. They might be afraid that patrons will burn copies of the top-selling groups and enjoy them for free from home. I guess books will be the next thing to go. The Patriot Act is already purusing patron's reading habits, if a federal search warrant is called. And you won't be notified because the librarian will be under a gag order. So much for a free society.

grrr..I meant kowtowing. Sorry.

"The point of course is that education in this country (I haven't been educated in other countries so I can only address this one) is governed by monopoly by orthodoxy."

I agree with that Code. And the part of this country turning into a police state.

"This thread is not about creation v. evolution. Freedom means the ability to be exposed to all kinds of ideas. You don't beat bad ideas by banning them. You beat bad ideas with good ideas."

Yeah that's true...but, my point is that when religion has been taught in schools, it usually favors Judeo-Christianity. I have no problems with creationism being taught -- but other religions would definitely need to be included. And the creation story would have to be taught in context, in a religious course.

Tom Song, I read several of Ridley's books last year for the first time - - The Red Queen, The Origin of Virtue, and his book on DNA. And the funny thing is that I've forgotten most of what I read!

The UK school system isn't good either. Ours is obcessed with the Three T's: Tests, Tables and Targets. If its not on the exam, it doesn't exist. Thats not its only problem, but its the major one. There is also the regular government overhaul that changes all the rules every few years, so noone understands including the teachers. And the badly-designed UCAS system encourages students to take easy-pass courses with no potential use to them (often media studies or humanities subjects) as these count towards university entry just as much as the infamously difficult core subjects.

Creationism shouldn't be taught in science classes, through its perfect for an RE class. The main change I would make in teaching science is to tell students just how simplified their course is. Its ok to teach them to think of atoms as two types of ball clustered together with lots of smaller balls spinning around it, as long as they understand that they are working with a simplified version and a true atom is far, far more complicated. That makes it much easier to move onto the next course, when they must replace the model with a more complex version.

The book The Red Queen can't be forgotten, Meryl (may I call you Meryl?) It was a cloud lifted from my eyes. Darwin's system is irrefutable; anyone who says creationsim is based on fact hasn't looked into it. The latest too-hip Yuppie theory of the Intelligent Watchmaker is also laughable, attempting to prove that chaos theory or random selection doesn't explain the evolution and death of living organisms.

Darwin and Freud were the towering giants of the Twentieth Century.

Would religionists quibble with Freud's research into the personality? If Kansas is the flashpoint of ignorance, then I would expect home-schooling whackos to start protesting the teaching of Freud. I put nothing beyond these people in Kansas, if that is to be where all fanatic movements start.

They are FUNDAMENTALISTS, like the Taliban, and want to wrench society back to the Dark Ages. The basic definition of a fundamentalist is one who wishes to deny the modern age. And these cultists will use violence to accomplish their goal of consolidating political power.

This then is the meaning of burning books. To erase the inquiring mind.

Thanks for mentioning the Bell Curve, Meryl.

The basis of forensic inquiry is peer review. The Bell Curve was published as a racist screed by the Republican Party. Like many other efforts bought and paid for by neo-con billionaire extremists, (Scaife, Mellon, Coors, the Federalist Society and the American Enterprise Institute) the Bell Curve was published without examination by other scientists. It belongs with the disgraced eugenics efforts like the secret syphillis experiments in Tuskogee in 1918, exposure of American troops to radiation at the Bikini Islands, and the Nazi medical torture of Dr. Mengle.


Again, peer-to-peer communication is an important advance of human history. Science has worked within the system of trust and the sharing of knowledge for 100 years and needs to be shielded from political or religious pressure.

As the man says, the engineering of a truss bridge doesn't need copyright to stand for 400 years. Engineering principles were a system of incremental improvements, building upon the knowledge of the work of others.

Libraries don't need Stalinist Correctness Committees to advise on appropriate materials. You may not enjoy Outkast's music, (any more than you agree with the Nazis' right to march through Skogee, Illinois), but that is why we have the ACLU.

Try to bear in mind that the ACLU has been around longer than the FBI. You people need to get your priorities straight and acknowledge that the FBI is your worst enemy.

And the fact that we are actually discussing the credulity of evolution in 2004 is dismaying. The simple act of saying that "creationism is all right for some people" means you are being used as a tool for political purposes.

This isn't a choice of religious freedom; you might as well say, "My God doesn't allow for the theory of germs. I can't see any little bugs in the water. That's absurd."

That's fine for people in my area who handle snakes and drink strychnine. Let them die. That doesn't change SCIENTIFIC FACTS for people who don't choose to live in the filth and misery of the Dark Ages.

Hey Tom...Knock off the Kansas crap. One idiot is not going to start a revolution in Kansas. You are picking on Kansas because of one voice, and the misrepresentation of what happened in 1999.

And while you are at it, instead of ranting at the opposing view, you maybe should find some facts about it to give a fair representation instead of slamming it so resoundly with your hammer of science.

I have actually studied both theories and find that they really can coexist and actually compliment each other.

I am astounded that I am spending this much time on subjects that have little to do with the reason for why I am at this site.

goldenpi made an excellent point about education, and goldenpi, that is true to some extent here. Bureaucracies, both state, federal, and big companies, get obsessed with metrics. I believe this comes from a writer on business management that says that if you cannot measure it, you can't manage it..or as usually put, you can't manage what you can't measure.

This has led to the notion of "teaching to the test". In other words, to hell with them learning things that make them a more informed, more well rounded person. If you as a school district or teacher have to be based with an outcome based method, then you tend to teach things that they will be tested on, often to the exclusion of other things.

In Austin, the school district was charged with test tampering.
http://www.edweek.org/ew/1999/31test.h18

In fact, the school district was indicted.
"The Austin, Texas, school district and one of its top administrators were indicted last week after a six-month probe into charges that school officials adjusted student data to raise scores on last year's state exams."

It's odd to me that a school districted gets indicted by a grand jury, but that's exactly what happened.

Co-exist?? One is a myth, a story. The other is empirical science. They do not co-exist as science. No religion should be allowed to dictate how science is taught.

I hope Kansans are working to get this nut out of office.

You are wrong about studying creationsism. There is nothing to study. I am embarrassed for you to spout such ignorance.

I'm in a place (Virginia) that is embarrassing itself in the eyes of the world because of its relentless legislative efforts to undercut Rowe vs. Wade, and remove references to Darwin in school books. These things are always committed in religious star sessions, and when exposed, the public howlings force the neandrethals to repeal it. Yet nothing stops them from trying again and again under some other underhanded legislative rider.

Again, the divisive cultural wedge issues are a deliberate distraction. You never notice the Republicans talking about the economy. The only way to stay in power (like your Senator Sam Brownback) is demagoguery, that is, waving a bloody flag and inciting the lynch mob. They have a minder and gentler word for it: "appealing to the base." This is a code word for inflaming the mob.

Kansas has a long history of violence, wouldn't you agree?

Anyone who spends two minutes discussing evolution is a tool of cynical Republican efforts to retain power by any means possible. I am wondering by under what statute, given the separation of church and state, you'd find authority for Sam Brownback and his despicable ilk, to empower school boards to throw out science in school books because Gawd says so. Your onw particular gawd, of course.

The US economy will be at the bottom, when other countries bypass us because they don't have religious muzzling of science. The whole world is laughing at our religious revival.


I am willing to cut you some slack personally on the assumption that some people in Kansas still have a semblence of sanity. But your support for creationism proves the urgency of libraries drilling some basic education into the brains of people in Kansas. Maybe Kansas should secede, before its religious madness infects other bordering states.

"No religion should be allowed to dictate how science is taught." - carla60626

I completely agree with Carla. Individual religious beliefs should not influence how science is taught in classrooms. Individual beliefs/religions should be taught by the parents (or the parishes) themselves.

Tomsong, I read The Red Queen about a year or so ago. I need to re-read it because some things he discussed went over my head - - especially in regard to Darwin. I thought that Ridley argued that sex to ensure that humanity could stay one step ahead of germs, bugs, and other baddies. But, the germs/bugs/etc; evolved too and as a result, there's always an "evolving stalemate" ...almost like a running in place.

It was an excellent book, as were his other books. I heard that he recently published a new book, but I haven't had time to check it out from the library.

And as to the American system falling behind, I've only made that comment because I've had experiences as a tutor, as well as heard stories, from other teachers, concerning students' proficiency in classrooms.

I also have a relative who has been a college-level professor for several years. This relative is a marketing professor, but he discusses many subjects with his students. One day, the subject of evolution came up in class. One young lady raised her hand and my relative called on her. The young lady asked, "Isn't that the theory which says we all came from monkeys..." It was funny... but, heh...this student was a senior in college level. I've had similar experiences.

I know some will say, "Hey, they aren't science students, they're marketing students." I majored in English and they taught us about Darwin in high scool. That's why I really wonder what's going on at the elementary and high school levels in American classrooms these days.

"The UK school system isn't good either. Ours is obcessed with the Three T's: Tests, Tables and Targets. If its not on the exam, it doesn't exist." -goldenpi

Yeah, the same thing is happening across the U.S.

Thing of it is, this was the majors acting to get rid of those albums that aren't really doing that well. As it was a settlement to make right a problem, they took the oppurtunity to dump some of their less choice selections that otherwise would have been in the scrap heap.

So p2p is responcible for the poliferation of smut, porn, and other undesirable influances eh? Funny that the state attorney general would think that anything they recieved as a settlement would be "tainted".

Here you have a basic ruling by the legal head of the state, in fact several of them. They seem to have the same opinion; that what they recieved was not exacltly what they want the children in the system to know of. Or at least what they don't what to be responcible for unleashing on the public education system.

Do they think that this isn't something the kids already don't know about or have heard about? Ha!

Prehaps some sort of backlash is in order to those that sent these items in liu of what should have been "wholesome and family value" entertainment. As you can see, the RIAA and majors don't have a clue to this. Only to what they don't like. In otherwords to sum it up, p2p. You know the ones that unleash unwholesome, porn riddled subject matter on kids.

Did I miss something here?

Down with the Attorney General. He blocked Outkast from public libraries. How dare he keep the public from the fantastic products that the RIAA has to offer. Why focus on boycotting the RIAA when we have more important things to do, like talk about more off topic crap that actually does more to promote the RIAA than to hurt them.

And god bless both of you for not being too hard on me.

know when to say when.....

The difference between science and religion is that science is "supposed", in theory, (but in actual practice, its quite different) to be able to change its positions and teachings in light of new discoveries and facts.

Religion is faith based, and "revealed teachings" based. The a priori is that you take it unquestioningly.

The truth sadly is that science has a tyranny of the orthodoxy. No where is this more the case than in medicine. Anyone familiar with what happened to doctors like William B. Coley,MD or Royal Raymond Rife, will become clearly aware that to bring facts and hypotheses which do not jive with the "annointed" and "traditional" ways, will soon be the target of harassment, ridicule, and professional assasination.

The truth is that just as there is a tyranny of the orthodoxy in religion...there is similarly a tyranny of the orthodoxy in science.

And, in some ways, our whole fight has been against the tyranny of the orthodoxy of the musical establishment.

The nexus to all this is that the "establishment" and orthodoxy, have become embedded in the system like a tick deep in the wool of a sheep. They are bloated with financial resources, and are usually all lawyered up, and have laws passed in their favor.

The rebels and true pioneers are always met with the full force of all the cannons that the powers that be can muster.

Tom, you can be embarrassed for me, pity me, mock me, but the difference between you and me is that I would not pay any amount of money to be standing in your shoes at the moment of your death. Because, if you are correct, it won't matter what I have believed, or you have believed, and you will cease to exist, or whatever you believe happens at death. If I am correct, then you are in deep shit.

Code, I see you are doing a fabulous job of tying this farout topic into the riaa and our continued battle.

Now that I have said my piece, I will go back to avoiding these off topic controversies, which may kill some time and bring out the beast in the best of us, but are devisive and destructive to anyone not holding the same opinion as the leaders here.

Today I am both slow AND depressed. I think I musta broke my edumakashun bone, cuz my "thankin'" ain't very good this day.

Until all the information in books and other media is made available on the internet (and other systems). Then we will continue to have this current 'war' in our society regarding freedom of information, freedom from censorship and freedom from copyright. Because information is power and those who have that information want to control the 'masses'.

One does not have to go far for an example take the Dark Ages, it was not until the printing press was invented that the shackles of religious indoctrination was released.

In America you have religious groups, business monopolies and individuals all over the country telling your law makers what should or should not be enacted in terms of laws (for example Intelligent Design in the class rooms and RIAA with copyright restrictions). The effect of these laws is like trying to place shackles on society again. Make no mistake, it is all about seizing control and imposing there will.

Take the following statement. "The bible is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth". If you believe this with all your heart then go to the following web site. http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/ (more web sites and books can be stated). This is one instance where information is so powerful that it can lead to us to think 'that all the information' should be made available.

The ACLU should file a lawsuit against the Kansas attorney general and thus maintain freedom of speech. I will defend everybody’s right to believe what they want. But I will not defend them when they try to 'impose' their beliefs on others or where those beliefs do harm to others.

I've a question for all you mates. Why don't people go to Sunday School (isn't that what you call them in the States) to get instruction on religious teachings? I've heard that you can't pray in schools there, but I don't think there's a law there saying a kiddo can't bow his or her head and offer a note of thanks or supplication to the Man Above.

As I said in another thread, with well respect to all you Yanks, your whole country seems like it is going nutters.

Cheers.
Death4U2

Death4U2,

Quote

"As I said in another thread, with well respect to all you Yanks, your whole country seems like it is going nutters."


What you are seeing here is that by and large we don't agree with the direction our country is headed. Much of the world echos this opinion in the direction and the methods used by the US.

The methods of disagreement differ somewhat but all seem to be in agreement as to it being undesirable. Even the terrorist are saying no more than they disagree only their methods are not what anyone welcomes.

You see here, those few that are brave enough to stand up and say, "We don't agree with what is being done to our country." Not every yank wears a quick draw holster and thinks the days of the westerns are still here.

I do tend to agree that our country is going nutters.

here's one thing everybody missed.

If I was from Kansas and was paying taxes into the state school systems, the first thing I would probably ask why has a court settlement have to be paid in CDs and not cold hard cash....I would think straight currency would be much better for the school system. I'm sure there's school books to buy, buses to maintain and buildings to repair. Why should the state settle for essentially worthless CDs?

I agree with Death4u2 and Wet1 as well.

Download The Freedom Road by David Icke to see the explanation of Science v. Religion. He claims both came from the same people.

Kimdownuder and Death4u2--where are you two from? I'm guessing Kim (you're missing a letter, you know) is from Australia and maybe Death4u2 is, too. I was just wondering what the general view of the U.S. is, wherever you come from.

"I do tend to agree that our country is going nutters."

I agree with that... and I agree with Death4u2's statement that religious education should be left up to Sunday Schools.

Who really cares, less RIAA crap in our libraries. What happened to libraries having books, thats how I remember it. You know, reading....

I don't understand the title of this article, nor the arguments about education that it has spawned. The state of Kansas has made a decision that may be subject of debate, but removing those CDs doesn't seem to have a huge impact on the "education" of children in Kansas. I have almost 800 CDs, but I don't consider any of them "educational".

Greetings from down under ShadowMom yes, I do reside in Australia near Sydney (a big city) and I did notice the missing 'n'. Death4u2 uses the word 'mate', ‘cheers‘and nutters in his language which would tend to make him an Australian. (but I could be wrong).

I generally follow what is going on in America (I have relatives in the states and other reasons). I would assume that the majority of people in Australia would find that the Americans are great people. There is no underlying hostility towards Americans overall. However, I have an utter distaste for people like 'Hatch' and those types of people exist in Australia. But then you will always find somebody you do not like in this world.

The current issue that is raging in the papers and our parliament is the issue of the Free Trade Agreement between the US and Australia which in all cases will likely be signed. However, Labour (read democrats) which is the government in opposition has told the government that is in power the Liberals (read republicans), they will not sign the agreement unless there are strong protection clauses in the legislation protecting our pharmaceutical scheme and related patent issues (basically the scheme says the government will only pay what the drug is really worth). Hence this will ensure Australians will have access to cheap drugs.

However copyright extensions and the DMCA will be included and hence we are going to have similar laws some reporting has been done about these issues, but it has not reared its ugly head as it has done in the US. You have one avenue that you should vigorously pursue and do it with the utmost diligence to regain the upper hand in the war against excessive copyright restrictions and the answer lies within your own constitution. The relevant passage is:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Use the “and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” A similar process is underway at http://www.givemeliberty.org/ All the methods that have been mentioned do not seem to be getting anywhere maybe Code, Leflaw and Lessig (are they the same person?) could pursue this avenue a lot further.

Regards
Kim

Wow...I have just read this entire thread since about 5AM and its about 7:30 AM now. I had to register to just now to get my opinions in.

!. We as a collective people, minus the government, have become sheep for we have given the power to think for ourselves to the government for far too long.

2. We can only solve this problem and most problems if only we can empower people to think. If only people can be as tolerant as some of you then we would be in peace. If a new generation was taught differently then hopefully they can wipe out what the government thus far has done, for they are the future politicians. With this library issue...Let the libraries have as much stuff as they are offered. Teach they kids but if they want to listen to Outkast, fine let them. Damn let them listen to Eminem if the library has it, as long as they enjoy it for the artist's talent and they dont belive in homophobia or rape. I listen to eminem...he as a talent for rapping end of story. They mind as well ban John Mayer from the library because his song "No Such Thing" talks about non-conformity and rebelion. But hey fact is if a kid doesnt want to listen to something the library is not pointing a gun to them as saying "it here so you must check it out and listen to it".

3. I am a catholic. I went to catholic schools since I was in preschool until i graduated high school. Evolution and creation was taught hand in hand but in different classes and in different realms. I was taught Evolution by a double doctorate in medicine and molecular biology jesuit priest. I was taught creation by seminarian gone family man. One thing that is certain is Evolution is science and should be taught as science. Althought it is not a complete explaination to our origin but it is the best one we have in science until someone comes up with a better theory. The creation stories were created pre-science and many of them before humans developed writing. The are of a different value. They serve to answer the questions the people of the various cultures asked. The answers would obviously be faith based for science was not developed. I know one thing is certain that people can't treat science as religion and religion as a science.

Man i spent too many hours on this one page. its crazy but Im just exporing further in the pursuit of truth and knowledge. ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz

Is this really censorship? The government hasn't banned the sale of these discs; they just aren't available at the library. To me censorship is when the government prohibits the sale or distribution of an item. But that is just me.
Also this guy is an elected offical, if the people of Kansas don't like his actions then the people of Kansas can vote him out of office.

Welcome lbear...rest assured that on this site your opinion for the most part will be respected..unless you say you love the RIAA

I was brought up in a catholic school system, too and like yourself creationism was taught separately as a faith issue. Maybe I was lucky but the nuns who were my teachers had a more practical way of teaching. I was never put in a situation of believe creationism or go to hell. At the latter years of high school we were taught about other world religions and cultures. In the same school I studied physics and chemistry and from science we know evolution is basically proven...just look at nature all around us, changing day by day...sometimes good...sometimes bad.

But what the hey, maybe the Big Guy in the Sky started us all off with the big bang? The bible says God made the earth and the universe in 7 days...who's to say that God's day is 24 hours? Maybe each day is 650 million years to him.

That's why I'm always turned off by the pious pontificating of people who only see God vs science. To hear them tell it , it sounds like it's all about me, me , me. Basically people who can't live their own lives without wanting to control others. Do as I say and not as I do type personalities usually.

I orginally posted this article to tie in how the RIAA can get away from a proper court penalty with this ludicrous dumping of worthless CD's. When Big tobacco lost their court cases did they suggest to dump millions of cigarettes in schools? State prosecutors should never have accepted this settlement, the Big four should have been made to pay with money.

The fact that some pinhead state AG in Kansas decided to take it upon himself to weed out unsavory music was a side issue on my part , but I knew it would get a lot of attention.

Censorship is a huge issue in this country and the scary thing is that there is a growing number of people who think that because they don't like someone or what they say it's okay to censor that person. Ohh, they pawn it off with some excuse about protecting the children, but again like Orrin Hatch and Pat Leahy, they exploit children to force controls on society.

BenA74, most state prosecutors are elected to enforce the laws of the state, not work as a part time librarians deciding what is available on a PUBLIC library's shelves. This guy overstepped his duty by a country mile. Give the whole kit and kaboodle to the Library and let QUALIFIED people decide what is to be put on the shelves. Personally, if I was the state librarian, I would try and sell the crap to get some money for some real educational books and multimedia.

"This was very similar to what libraries do all the time," said Rosanne Siemens, the group's (The Kansas Library Association) executive director. "It wasn't so much an issue of taking things out but determining what would be best."
But the librarians are NOT determining anything!
Other state attorneys general are doing the same thing, so it's okay? Did Ashcroft send out a memo?
Who made this deal with the RIAA anyway, pinemikey?

Lachatte here's how Wisconsin took the settlement

http://www.wisinfo.com/journal/spjlocal/292464933486275.shtml

That article also has a quick paragraph on the settlement.

Basically, the Big Four got away with price fixing and cleaned out their warehouses of old CD's at the same time.

Jeez, I should keep it at home...here's the original post here at Boycott-RIAA.

http://www.boycott-riaa.com/article/5936

The settlement is old news, but the crappy CD's are only now being filtered down to the states' libraries.

So now I know how the settlement went (sorry should have read that first) BUT, I still say the settlement sucks. That's the way it goes.

I wonder how much cash actually got back into consumers' hands?

Does anybody around here think the Big Four learned their lesson? or have actually stopped the practice of price fixing?

They definitely cleaned out their warehouses, pinemikey.
That original post from January, 2003 said that "41 states took on the music companies", so I guess that's why the attorneys general feel entitled to "screen" the CDs that they were given.
I liked this quote: "To prevent the companies from dumping unwanted inventory, lawyers for the states came up with a formula based on how much time artists spent on the Billboard charts..."
Well, it wasn't a very good formula, was it? Just the same old math that the RIAA has been using to determine their losses, I suppose.
My daughter and I both got checks. I wonder if the companies sent out the $67 million to consumers yet. They have trouble locating people when it comes to paying settlements and royalties, you know. Will there be an audit?

"One thing that is certain is Evolution is science and should be taught as science. Althought it is not a complete explaination to our origin but it is the best one we have in science until someone comes up with a better theory. The creation stories were created pre-science and many of them before humans developed writing. The are of a different value. They serve to answer the questions the people of the various cultures asked. The answers would obviously be faith based for science was not developed. I know one thing is certain that people can't treat science as religion and religion as a science."

I completely agree, LBear. I'm Catholic as well. Creation was taught in my Sunday School classes, and sometimes when passages from the Bible were read in Mass on occassion. My high school science teachers taught me much of what I knew about Darwin's theories.

"Because, if you are correct, it won't matter what I have believed, or you have believed, and you will cease to exist, or whatever you believe happens at death. If I am correct, then you are in deep shit."

Unless you picked the wrong religion. haha. Hopefully someone on earth has it right, because then at least you'd have a chance. If not, then boy is god gonna be pissed when you worshipped the wrong one.


I was also raised Catholic, but still never bought into the whole practice of molesting boys.

That's such a dumb take on life. Just in case there's something watching demanding worship, you better start believing he's there or else you're going to hell. I never understood it. I went to catholic school. It doesn't make any sense. Religion is a good foundation for people who need help differentiating between right and wrong, but other than that it's pretty useless. Good for wars, exterminating jews, etc. Yeah, good thing those people believe.

All I could do is smile when reading how so many of you are shocked by what the Kansas AG has done.

I do applaud the refusal of RIAA product, HOWEVER, I despise the reasoning and method by which it was done.

I assure this is so the norm there. And I can speak with absolute confidence as I was born and raised there. Not to mention I also received degrees from both Kansas State AND the University of Kansas.

There are a few oasis' of modern and open minded thinking and teaching - but they are far and few between.

Mind you, this is the same state that until the late 80's banned a person from just walking in and buying a drink in a bar. No wine with dinner, no booze on Sundays etc. I don't drink other than wine for dinner so it was no big deal to me, but I find this type of control to be anti-American and and an invasion of personal liberties. But hey, if folks want to live their so be it.

A large part of the anti liquor establishment was also pushed by descendants of Carrie Nation that were in the legislature even up to the 1960's.

I will say that in the 1970's Kansas had it moments of liberal-openmined-freedom of choice glory as it was the first state to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment.

While my early childhood was a mix of Leave it to Beavr meets Tom Sawyer memories, I will never miss living in that hell of suppresionistic, misguided, and just plain idiotic thinking of the simpletons that are the power people there.

Be proud Kansas, be a proud minority!

Ok, here's the latest info on this topic.

Phil Kline rejected part of the CD's given to the State of Kansas as part of the settlement with CD distributators over aligations of price fixing. 40 states were given 1.5 Million CD's to distrubte to libraries in these states. There was also a provision that the AG (or other state official) could review the CD's, and reject any that they objected too.

Kansas, along with 27 other states, excercised that right. The decision by Phil Kline only affects these CD's. It does not make it illegal for these CD's to be in libraries. In fact, in Salina Kansas, most, if not all, of these CD's already exist in the public Library.

Lothar2: This is very interesting. It changes everything. Please provide a link.

ShadowMom - As you may surmise from my name, I've been all over. I've a lot of mates in Oz, and mates in the jolly old UK too. But, people are people. The dialect changes, but the love of freedom, hope, passion, hate, envy, greed, all these things are universal. The Yanks supposedly relied heavily on "English common law" and "natural law" in formulating their government. Many people from the England, Ireland, Scotland, have settled and been pioneers in the States, so we have some common threads. I'm actually an internationalist in residence, but death against globalism.

A nod o' the noggin to kimdownunder. The Aussies RULE!

"That's such a dumb take on life. Just in case there's something watching demanding worship, you better start believing he's there or else you're going to hell. I never understood it. I went to catholic school. It doesn't make any sense. " - The Sherminator

I have friends from all walks of life: atheists, agnostics, Catholics, Buddhists. You know, if you don't believe in a God or God, then that's fine. But to call someone else "stupid" because they don't follow your line of thinking/philosophy, is equally childish and petty. Believing, or not believing in a God doesn't make one smarter or more intelligent than anyone else. Nor does it make one more open minded.

If you don't understand why people worship a God, or believe in a God, just don't follow their path. I'm more impressed with people who are able to live their own beliefs with sincerity, without telling someone their dumb because they don't believe as they do.

"Religion is a good foundation for people who need help differentiating between right and wrong, but other than that it's pretty useless. Good for wars, exterminating jew