An Analysis

The recent passage (read: rubber-stamping) of the so-called “PIRATE[sic] Act” — which, despite its name, is not anti-“piracy[sic]” but in fact anti-technology — has had (or will have) the unfortunate effect of driving the U.S.A. deeper and deeper towards the level not only of totalitarian dictatorships like China, Cuba and North Korea with respect towards new technology and the Internet, but also towards the level of primitive Third World countries, many of which haven’t even been “connected” yet — and may well never be, thanks to this latest bid at suffocation. It will also permanently compromise this country’s moral authority with respect to our (hypocritical) criticisms of the respective countries’ deplorable human rights records, and will not only give such countries further impetus to disregard our lectures thereon, but also harden their own repressive policies.

Every last individual who voted for this retarded, fascistic measure — including its sponsors, chief among them Orrin “Down-the-” Hatch, who may just as well be a closet Marxist (his heartless advocacy of the confiscatory “sue-’em-all” policies that are mainly targeted towards the working poor, the weak, the vulnerable and the defenseless, for instance), and such infamous liberal leftists as Barbara Boxer and Patrick “F-You” Leahy — will go down in history as being to new technology what Joseph Stalin was to (est.) 30 million of his own people, what Mao Tse-tung was to 60 million of his own people, what Pol Pot was to millions of Cambodians, and what a certain European leader with a handlebar mustache . . . you get the idea. Their whole attitude in this enterprise gives new meaning to the old Biblical / Talmudic admonition that “He who is merciful towards the cruel, will end up being cruel towards the merciful.” Their callous disregard for (and depraved indifference to) the future in the name of “protecting” a few one-party tyranny / multinational entertainment-media conglomerates in bare-naked appeasement / pandering to their respective alphabet lobbies will have devastating consequences for the future development of society, and may well further accelerate the decline and fall of Western civilization, especially as it relates to the radical Islamists’ openly stated goal of destroying the West and replacing it with an Islamic theocracy guided solely by Islamic sharia law (circa 9th century).

The rigid, absolutist, bigoted, fundamentalist thinking behind this hate-laden bill is not too dissimilar to but a few examples:

1) The anti-gun zealots’ attitude that every shooting episode is attributable to the existence of guns and the gun industry, and their belief that by outlawing guns, that’ll stop violence. But so-called “gun control,” according to some studies, has actually had the effect of disarming law-abiding citizens, while doing absolutely nothing to stop violent criminals from obtaining such weapons.

2) The dubious practice of “racial profiling”; that is, the attitude in some law-enforcement circles across the country that, say, if a young black male lives in a housing project, then automatically he will become a violent criminal, drug dealer, sadistic rapist etc. It is this attitude that explains all the controversies over the last few years – such as the case of a motorist being killed in New Jersey during a police chase over a drug search of the motorist’s car; people being randomly stopped and frisked at any times of the day; the Amadou Diallo shooting in 1989; and so forth. To say nothing of the murder of a West African immigrant in New York City during an RIAA raid last year.

3) The arrogant, elitist attitude that the “great unwashed” simply cannot be trusted with any such doodads as P2P networks or digital media of any kind. This mindset is basically an updated version of that exemplified by Alexander Hamilton, one of the Founding Fathers, who had the utmost contempt for the masses and made no effort whatsoever to hide it. His distrust of the public’s ability to handle the nation’s finances, for example, was part of what led him to launch the U.S. Treasury; his distrust of their ability to choose our leaders led to his establishing the Electoral College. This writer could go on, but he won’t.

That this corrupt travesty passed while the DMCRA is still in de facto limbo shows that there is truly no justice in this country. It also underscores how truly dangerous the closed, exclusivist agenda of the RIAA, MPAA and BSA really is, and how – and the extent to which – the Orwellian–Stalinist DMCA has spread like a cancer or a virus that is extremely harmful (and potentially fatal) to the body. History has shown that no free or open society can function for long with any such straitjacketed restrictions, and that the end result of initiatives like this will be a closed society along the lines of the most repressive rogue regimes in the world.

And there is also the little matter of the very disturbing prospect of 60 million Americans essentially being completely disenfranchised from voting, serving on juries, or otherwise participating in the political process. There is no doubt in this writer’s mind that the RIAA-cists who pushed this know full well that in many states, convicted felons cannot vote – which explains their push to make P2P use a felony. This stands to be the most sweeping disenfranchisement of an entire section of the population since racial segregation was institutionalized as the law of the land in the late 19th century. That, plus effectively relegating those 60 million to inferior, second-class status, with no rights whatsoever as enjoyed by the rest of the populace.

This latest injustice also calls to mind the time when the practice of eugenic sterilization was sanctioned by the Supreme Court in 1927, therefore condemning tens of thousands of Americans – mostly poor, some “feeble-minded,” or of certain ethnic or minority groups, or drug addicts / alcoholics, or people with criminal records – to be subjected to this practice.

In sum, it’s as if Goliath had crushed David (instead of the other way around), or the lions finished off Daniel (among other examples). And if this becomes law, we may all as well be living under Communism in the old Soviet Union, or in such still-Communist countries as China, Cuba and North Korea. It is up to all of us to keep up the pressure in the House, a la Ronald Reagan’s challenge to Mikhail Gorbachev in 1987 in Berlin: “Tear down this wall!”

NEXT:  How this development may actually serve to protect a certain political, social and cultural agenda from any and all scrutiny by its critics.

couldnt say it any better than this
this is the letter that should be sent to senators not the other one or how abouy both

The beginnings of the fall of the second Roman Empire. We will now fall behind technology wise and the rest of the world will stomp us into the ground. Our Senators have thrown us to the lions.

Comparing gun control to outlawing peer to peer is stupid.

not really carla. gun control is stopping law abiding citizens from having guns just as the copyright laws and the effect of outlawing p2p is stopping law abiding citizens from having digital media.

I don't want to live in a neighborhood where "law abiding citizens" have guns. Law abiding citizens drink, have tempers and can be just plain idiots. Law abiding citizens let their young children have access to their guns.
Peer-to-peer doesn't kill.

it's not stupid carla60626. it's reality. it's the same principal. i can compare it to child porn if i wanted...different fruits, but they cost the same. in the end this country will fall...mankind's mentality is such that free societies are always limited in their existance. man always hunger for more power, more authority. that's why it's up to us "guntoting" citizens to wipe them out and for new free societies. once your guns are gone, you are powerless. what are you going to do? overthrow them with sticks and stones? I listened to a song a few years back, talking about what I would have then said is "conspiricy theorist stuff". when i listen to it now, it's like wow...it's all came true. it's only a matter of time until this website is taken offline. probably in the name of fighting terrorism. maybe they'll leave it up, just arrest all the members. you laugh now. how many far reaching laws have happened since Sept 11?

If you want to own a gun, you shouldn't live in proximity to other people. You are dangerous. Same with cigarettes. Your actions affect me and my health. Go away. I have a right to live peacefully.
Peer-to-peer is qualitatively different.

Carla, yes, you do have a right to live peacefully.
I have a right to own a gun AND live peacefully.
Both should be our own personal choices.

Shit I moved out of the USSR for this shit?
Pftt give me Brezhnev and Kruschev again!

Carla, you are an idiot. Thanks for playing. This is (for now) a free country, take your communist bullshit elsewhere.

thanks Carla for your input and don't be put out. There are others that feel like you do as to guns. Pete Seeger gave me one of his tunes with the words.,its called ,"Drop the gun". Damn good tune and says it all.
And yes peer to peer is different.
As to what Lord says about " communist bullshit". I have to say when I was in tour in Italy my best paying gigs were the communist gigs. They were the best done on that tour. I did not know before I was to head over there but as it turned out they were very cool.
So keep living in a peaceful world Carla and I will and many of us will too!
Still Pickin'
Bill Hudson

I side with Carla. And although I support anti-RIAA activism and compulsory licensing, I TOTALLY disagree with the analogies drawn in this article.

I'm really starting to see a big chasm in this community, and in this website. It separates progressive people and borderline fascist neo-con.

Progressive people fight the RIAA because they see their business model as crushing and outdated. They don't support globalization because they think it is dysfunctional and generates suffering in both western and developing nations. They are the ones usually supporting Moore when people start talking about him on this website. They usually have leftist views.

The other side of the community doesn't give a shit about anything but attacks on what they perceived as "the mighty american way": God in the pledge of allegiance, guns and the right to shoot any federal employee or any trespasser. They despise the RIAA because they see it as an instrument of the government and for them any form of government is communist. They hate the RIAA because it is foreign, even mentioning things such as "jewish ownership" (dubbsack). They sometimes have violent names such as "killerontheroof". They compare the RIAA lawsuits, as bad as they are, to events still way more important and unrelated: terrorism, the holocaust, racism.

To be honest, those gun-toting, bible waiving, xenophobic and paranoid freaks give me the creeps. They make me want to leave this site because I want no association with Timothy McVeigh wannabees.

"To be honest, those gun-toting, bible waiving, xenophobic and paranoid freaks give me the creeps."
Good one Sfolivier!
I for one will keep trying to make a small part of the world better with music. In the end peace will win, not war. I try to look at it like a bar fight. In the end we have to try to find a way to talk to each other. That is what music is all about I feel. Break down the walls, throw away the guns and pick up you voice and sing. It works, I do it all the time.
Here is hoping Tom Paine's spirit is alive and well.
Still Pickin'
Bill Hudson

Insightful post, Sfolivier. Sometimes I think I'm at www.libertyforum.com when I read the posts.

Ok, I had a few more hours sleep, so just one more comment. It's interesting to me that free peer-to-peer appeals to both ideological factions. Are there other issues that do? Maybe it involves the same reasoning the ACLU defended the right of Nazis to march through Skokie.

I took issue with the logic of the above article, but all I could manage to say was the gun analogy was not apt. Thank you sfolivier for your analysis. And it's funny--I do wonder about some of the nicknames here. LOL
And Bill -- it's all about the music isn't it. Last night I heard some live latin jazz outside in our park. It was wonderful.

And one more thing killerontheroof (eek!): Ya govoryu po-ruski.

Not every one that believes in the right to own and bear arms is a bible thumper or paranoid freak. I for one border on the lines of agnostic, and just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you . Nor am I a republican in fact I am a registered independent.

I was raised in a family where guns were a sporting thing, not to be taken lightly. Never once has anyone in my family or those who we associate our selfs with have killed or threatened anyone, not ever. You should not assume that because you own a gun you are a bad person. I have a right to kill anyone who breaks into my house and tries to rape my wife and kids. And yes I would gladly kill that person without remorse. You have no right to keep me from protecting them from rapists killers or the government or even you. We need to educate people on common sense and gun safety. I wish you could see the kind hearted honest sober people I know who own guns. They do not kill or threaten people. In fact you would never know they were a gun owner unless you saw them down at the local shooting range. To say that everyone that owns a gun is a bible waiving paranoid freak is the same as saying that anyone who smokes pot is a druggie or anyone who is gay is a child molester. Criminals kill people and criminals will kill people with or without guns. There is enough room for us all on this earth if we just give everyone some room. When we start trying to take peoples rights away no matter what it is thats when civil wars happen. And believe me just because we are the united states does not mean we are immune to that sort of thing. It can happen very easily. Someone told me once when I was a kid and I will never forget this either he said "humans are extremists by nature and we must try and fight that urge". when I say that its my right to own a gun that is not being extreme nor you saying that I do not have the right to own a gun that is not being extreme either. But you saying that anyone who owns a gun is a bible thumper, republican, skin head, or a murderer is being extreme.

Peace on earth and to all my boycott-riaa.com friends peace to you.

Point made illtbag and I hear you. I live down south and here in VA. some of my friends do have firearms. Even had a girlfriend who was a good shot. But for me all I need is a good song and my guitar and if there is a threat , then I will sing.
When I use to ravel around and I was sleeping in my truck, someone came out to my truck and said, "Boy I had you in my gun sights". And I made damn sure I made eye contact and said, "Why?" He told me, "Well I did not know you Boy". I just took my hand out and touch his hand and said, "Hi, I'm Bill Hudson, how ya doing?". He just looked like he woke up from a bad dream.
If one looks , some folks are not criminals until they shot the wife or their husband because they wanted to see their TV show, it happens. A fight is one thing shooting is another.
Anyway, with music it really can save the world. One step at a time.
Still Pickin'
Bill H.

A few clarifications about Alexander Hamilton: He was in fact the first Secretary of the Treasury (under George Washington), however he did establish a national bank (which stabilized our country's finances at a time when our currency was the laughing-stock of the world), for motives along the lines of what was expounded above; and the Electoral College was based on his ideas of selecting a President and Vice President, with voting patterns in those days significantly different from today, but he himself did not physically start it; it was provided for in the Constitution. Still, his distrust of the common man resonates among the elites to this day, though many of his ideas DID keep the country together at the time, and for a long time afterwards. Yet I still wonder if, had he lived today, he would have supported the so-called "PIRATE[sic] Act."

Illtbagu, I know that not all people with guns are bad people. But they are bad ones, and I'd rather have them unarmed even if it means that reasonnable people like you can't have a gun. As for my description, it is unfortunatly a trend, even if like all trends, it doesn't capture 100% of the situation.

Do you know you are more likely to be killed by a gunshot if you own a gun that if you don't. All statistics show that gun owners get involved in more violence than people who don't. Keep also in mind that 92% of murders are commited by people the victim knows, often family members.

I hear your point about the rapist breaking in your home. But the truth is that you are still safer without a gun than with one. False sense of security, wrong risk assessment.

Did you know you are more likely to be in a car accident if you own and drive a car than if you don't. I say for the sake of all humanity we must submit our vehicles so no more deaths can occur by these machines of death. No I propose educating people about driving safely. Education, Education, Education, Education is the only way we can have absolute peace. This means Educating people with the truth and nothing but the truth. There was a man not 6 months ago where I live who escaped a mental hospital and tried to kill some guy and his family at night when they were sleeping. The victim shot and killed the man just before he reached for one of his children with a butcher knife (at least thats how I remember the story ). Just remember that allot of those statistics you read are conducted or funded by special interest groups. The NRA is not immune to this I do not side with the NRA's data thats for sure. I don't believe everything I hear. Go look at the crime rates in Australia since they banned guns and tell me home invasion and armed robbery has not doubled. That is raw data that is hard to manipulate. Your statistic about 92% of murders are committed by people they know. Lets take into account the statistic that most child rapes are conducted by a family member or close friend, know lets put those two statistics together and account for those fathers shooting their brother in law for raping his 7 year old girl. Yeah sure the idiot beating his wife on supper bowl night is more likely to have a gun but trust me when he is coming after you because you were trying to stop him from choking his wife to death and he is stabbing you with a knife and I defend you with my .357 you will be thanking me for being a honest kind person who came to your rescue. This happens all the time its no joke. It is a crazy world we live in. We humans are all nothing more than animals.

It wasn't always like it is today. People it seemed were allot more responsible and safer 100-200 years ago. Its just escalating more and more into a violent society. This to me points to a more serous social problem.

Trying to take away all of those guns (what is it something like 300 million) from everyone in this country is going to be as hard as taking away all of the knifes that are longer than 4 inches. This would cause another civil war. Its not going to happen and we are better off right now starting to educate our children about gun safety. I for one will be there when the British try and take over our country again just like they have been doing to Ireland the last 50 years. We still have countries in this would who are willing to impose their will upon others. We are almost as bad as the British but not quite. I hate bush I hate the patriot act and all of those Nazi extremists who impose it upon us all. But I will be the guy in the front lines when the extremest right wing born again freaks try and make everyone attend church on Sunday and require us all to have tracking chips implanted in our arms. Its no joke people think it is funny to think this way but look at history then look at human nature. It is inevitable it is going to happen. Maybe not quite like how I explained it but you get the point.

The state I live in northern Nevada (Vegas excluded they have laws in Vegas restricting guns, their crime is one of the highest in the country) I feel is very low in crime considering most people are transients. Something like 70 percent of all people who move here move out within a few years. Statistically I am not not sure how we stand against the rest of the nation as far as crime. But 90% of everyone who moves here are Californians. They infest this place with the crime they bring from there state, but when they get here they find out really fast that this isn't California and the citizens can protect them selfs. We also have some of the most lenient gun laws in the nation. People don't break into homes around here because they are afraid of getting shot. No one gets mugged because the criminals are unsure of who might have their concealed weapons permit. Believe me the "lets all sit around and do yoga and talk peace and play our guitars sounds great" (by the way I am not making fun of this idea I believe in it myself) I wish it were like that but humans are not that intelligent yet. We have a few more thousand years to go. Evolution will I feel will bring us to that point if we let it. The more restrictions you put on a society the more the citizens feel they need to break those restrictions. Just look at any socialistic or communist country and tell me the people are happier and safer. No I feel there needs to be less laws. Thats right, lets go back to the concept of common sense.

I would like to however compliment you on your intelligence. You seem to be a very smart person. We must all debate these things. Most people don't even care to think about these issues and are nothing more than sheep.

Peace to you my friend.

We need more money for mental health programs, that's for sure.

"The New Holocaust"?, You're comparing anti-piracy legislation to the Nazi's "Final Soloution"?

My God.

Hmmm. I didn't know so many gun freaks followed this site, I guess it's a refreshing change from all of the left-leaning loud mouth paranoics that usually post here, still...

I never thought i would be put in a position to defend socialism but to address Illtbagu's statement...

"Just look at any socialistic or communist country and tell me the people are happier and safer. No I feel there needs to be less laws. Thats right, lets go back to the concept of common sense."

Sweden, Finland, Norway, Germany, Canada.

All of the above nations are considerably more socialistic than the U.S. and all enjoy less crime, significantly less gun crime, and very few inhabitants of those nations would feel that living in America would make them "happier".

I olden times, a gun was a tool, today, unless you live in a rustic rural setting, guns are a toy.

And don't give me any of this self-defence bullshit, your chances of using your gun to defend yourself are negligable compared to the likelihood of that gun being used by your kids, their friends, the guy who robbed your house while you were out of town, or yourself when you catch your girlfriend sucking off the mailman.

But don't let that stop you from defending the second amendment 'till you choke, i'll just sit up here in nice, frigid Canada where strict gun laws have not prevented us from owning a firearm for legitimate purposes and have not, to my knowledge, led to an erosion of our personal freedoms.

Omigod, you're comparing piracy laws to eugenic sterilization too?

...

In a way, what the Senate "passed" yesterday DOES amount to a "final solution" on the RIAA's part. Think about it.

All I said is it should be and remain personal choice.
Atheist, by the way, no bible thumping here.
Assumptions are a great way to simplify things for the simple. The RIAA is doing it with the general poulation by feeding them simple sound bites and bullshit.
Assuming that all gun owners are "bad" simply because they own guns, is the same oversimplified crap.
Kinda like assuming all teenage males will die in car wrecks.

"Did you know you are more likely to be in a car accident if you own and drive a car than if you don't. "

Actually in this particular case, your logic is flawed. Your example should be: "People with cars don't travel or commute as easily as people without a car." That would make it equivalent to "People will gun die more from gunwounds than people without guns". We are talking about a self-defeating purpose, not a side effect.

It was said a couple of times in this topic: statistics show that owning a gun is dangerous, so dangerous that people trying to protect themselves with a gun are the usual victims of said gun. You CAN'T say that you own a gun for protection, this has been proven to be false.

So if you own a gun it's for other reasons. Fun, hunting, love of engineering, sport, collector... I would have no problem with that... if... you were not being more dangerous to your neighbors, their kids and anybody that crosses your path. So to summarize:

I don't like people with a hobby that makes them dangerous to their community, and I don't recognize them the right to protect themselves with a gun, because it's been proven actually make their life less safe.

Well, I know there will always be guns in the US. Just don't expect me to ever agree with it.

Last but not least. We clearly disagree but we can justify our different points of view, and we respect each other. I wish I could say the same for all the posters here.

Thanks for sharing your opinion and peace to you as well.

Totalitarian governments, when they take control, immediately do two things.
1) Get control of printing presses and as much media as possible
2) Identify gun owners and get their guns.

I am a gun owner. I also own a pickup. Both CAN be used as deadly weapons.
I CHOOSE how I use those devices. Luckily, I have not had to use either my vehice nor my firewarms to intentionally hurt anyone, and WOULD never do so, unless someone else's life was in danger.

Words, guns, autos, forks, knives, bricks...almost anything can be used to attack someone else.

The second amendment had a purpose. The founding fathers had direct experience with a tyrannical government running their lives. They also had lived in a world where foreign powers could take over a country which was undefended.

"A well regulated militia" was added, because, they knew that the "citizen soldier" was an important thing to have. But, it was also written in a time where the average adult male, had weapons, and knew the importance of being able to defend himself and his family. The founding fathers, in general, would find the unarming of a population as a horrible thing, even, unthinkable.

If a criminal knows one home has an adult with a gun who knows how to use it and is ready to defend his home, and another has someone with no weapons of defense, which home/person do you think he will choose to victimize?

PS..more people die as a result of medical malpractice and medical incompentence every year, than are killed by use of firearms.

"I am a gun owner. I also own a pickup."

Oh my god this is so cliche LOL. Do you have a gun rack too

Ok, no kidding. Fine with me Code if you don't want to admit that you are safer without a gun than with a gun, fine. But please don't hold on this as if it was a fact, it's not. It's the other way around. Thanks to having a gun you are now more likely to be killed by a gun. Yes, even with all the burglars and psycho out there, they are still less dangerous to your family as your gun. So pleeeeease, stop using self-defense as an rationale for having guns. IT DOESN'T WORK.

PS: Code you are not logical in your example with malpractice. The correct analogy would be "Medecine kills more people than lack of treatment"...

Thanks Code, for coming to the rescue with your own wonderful brand of common sense!

There are way too many labels flying around this place tonight. Let's use our heads, and get back to fighting the enemy, not hurling made up statistics at each other.

What's next?

I think bad spelling kills more people than guns.




Seriously, I do.

MikeGruz--Agreed. I know it kills me!!

hahaha Mike and shadowmom. I'm the worse assissan there is then.

I once told a room full of teachers in a college class I was in that as long as people understood what I'm saying that's all that matters. the crushing silence and gasps of horror filled the room.

"Words, guns, autos, forks, knives, bricks...almost anything can be used to attack someone else."

Yes, but a kid can't blow his friend's brains out with a fork.

Y'know Code? you may be a responsible gun owner, i'll take your word for it, but are you speaking for the guy sitting in the pick-up next to you? Sipping whiskey out of a coke can? Feeling like hot shit 'cuz he's packing heat in the glove box?

I know it's a stereotype but those guys do exist, along with gun-toting urban youths, obsessive jealous despondent ex-boyfriends, un-diagnosed mental cases, and curious kids looking under their parents' bed.

They are who I'm worried about

The laws aren't for you, they're for the other idiots who don't have common sense.

If it weren't for those people we could throw the lawbooks away and live in blissful anarchy.

CodeWarrior,
we've had our differeances here but on this point you are right on .

SCARY: guy sitting behind wheel sippin whiskey or heater in glove box. now statistically which is more dangerous10/4 ???flbgbt code and illtbagu youse speaks fo me !!

In a sane society with a benevolent government that is of, by, and for the people, you don't need a gun. I would certainly choose to live in a country like that without need for a gun...
too bad the USA does NOT meet that criteria anymore.

I predict a very bloody revolution within 5-10 years.

Shmoo

You should have a right to bear arms should you choose, when the country is threatened. There are countries that have a law banning the use of a gun. But here's the problem in the US...

See, that doesn't stop the bad guys from using a gun. And if the bad guys use a gun, and you get shot without being able to protect yourself at all...

Well, dead is dead either way. But that's only in a worst case scenario.

"Yes, but a kid can't blow his friend's brains out with a fork."
True, but an 11 year old can slash her friend to death without the use of a gun:
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific/view/91542/1/.html

Nothing more than tools... A deadly tool but something not to be taken lightly. If people want to try to go in your home and you don't have a gun, that doesn't make you any less lethal when you say "make my day."

I brought in the wrong article:
http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,9723123%255E401,00.html

here in portland a couple kids were goofing around and one got pissed at the other and stuck a pencil through his brain , are we gonna take pencils away from people too lol. as far as siting facts about people with guns being victims thats just pure bullshit what about the fact that the people in florida that can carry concealed now have just about eliminated the muggings and rapes that were rampant in that state

here are some stats if you want to lean more http://home.wi.rr.com/ccw4wi/nra.html

I really love boycott-riaa.com its a great place and I have been coming here for I think the last 3 years. You are a great bunch of people. Even though we didn't agree on a very controversial topic no one said anything stupid or got mad. I just wanted to say how cool that is. I guess it shows the level of intelligence in this community

I just wanted to argue one more point if guns don't constitute self protection then why do cops and the military carry guns.

Also who do you propose will knock on my door one night to take away my guns when we make guns illegal. Will this person that will be taking my guns be carrying a gun. Who will his authority be, the US government. Will the US government be allowed to have guns. If the government is not allowed to have guns then who will enforce our government the United Nations perhaps. Isn't this what all of the conspiracy theorists and paranoid freaks have been warning us about. What term do they use for this phenomenon again? Oh yes the scary freaking "new world order"!!!! Just another form of what Hitler believed in and nothing more.

There will always need to be someone with the power of authority to monitor and control our society. Its not any more complicated than some basic psychology. Its the same as a kid with no parents. If a child grows up with no parents then he for sure will be a trouble child doing what ever he likes without consequences. There must be authority its just human nature. I would much rather the authority be in the hands of the American people and the responsibility handed to every single individual rather than solely to one person. That is what makes it a democracy. With that power comes some down side of things, and that is responsibility. Freedom to bear arms is just one example of responsibility that are written in the constitution that the fathers of this country gave to us. They were the smartest men who ever walked the face of this earth for they new of there own temptations and evil that wants to control and ravage society. Don't think for a moment that you are any different than I am. We all have those power hungry desires that corrupt society. Some can control it and others cant. The American people armed and potential dangerous keeps those individuals from taking us over. Its probably the only thing that has stopped the bush administration from trying to declare a complete police state on our entire nation.

How do you stick a pencil through someone's brain?

Good point burner97119

I think that I would have actually read it if it actually spelled out what it was talking about instead of spewing opinion. Screw that.

carla im not kidding a 10-11 year old kid stuck a pencil thrugh the top of anotyher kids skull into his brain

lol another sorry (typo)

RIAA=NAZIs=Holocaust=Lack of Credibility
I'm done.

"Medecine kills more people than lack of treatment"...
Not true Sfolivier... please check out these sites....
http://proliberty.com/observer/19990403.htm
"From the April 1999 Idaho Observer:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JAMA stats tell the tale

Doctors kill more people than guns and traffic accidents

by Don Harkins

SANDPOINT -- Last St. Patrick's Day, Sandpoint Chiropractor Blaze Welch gave a lecture on how to “get off of the disease scary-go-round” at the Gardenia Center here. The purpose of the talk, which was sponsored by the North Idaho chapter of Vaccination Liberation, was to teach people that they are responsible for their own health. Dr. Welch also discussed figures from right out of the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) which prove, through accurate interpretations of their own words, that in the last century we chose the wrong fork in the road with regard to our health care paradigm. "

"The top five causes of death in the United States, in order, are: Tobacco, alcohol, medical malpractice, traffic and firearms.

According to JAMA, doctors kill more people than auto accidents and guns. With that in mind, one has to wonder why gun control is such a hot legislative issue when, perhaps, we should be more concerned about doctor control.

“The number of people that doctors kill per day from medical malpractice is roughly equal to the amount of people that would die if every day, three jumbo jets crashed and killed everybody on board,” commented Dr. Welch who added, in defense of his own profession, “just imagine what headlines would result if a chiropractor or a naturopath accidentally killed just one patient?” "

http://www.relfe.com/doctors_kill.html

http://www.freeworldalliance.com/medicalmafia/mm-dead.htm
"DOCTORS KILL MORE THAN GUNS

A recent article in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer concerning accidental deaths caused by physicians, from research of Laura Key USA.

This triggered a chain of thought that resulted in the person cruising the web finding some statistics and doing a few calculations.

Number of physicians in the US -- 700,000

Accidental deaths caused per year -- 120,000

Accidental deaths per physician -- 0.171

Number of gun owners in the US -- 80,000,000

Number of accidental gun deaths/year (all age groups) -- 1,500

Accidental deaths per gun owner -- 0.00001875

Ratio 0.171 / 0.00001875 -- 9,120 to one

Doctors are more than 9000 times more dangerous than gun owners. (spiker@amnix.com, www)"

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/2nd_Amend/doctors_deadlier_than_guns.htm
"A new book has been released by the National Academies Institute for Medicine, which concludes that the U.S. health care system has some serious flaws. According to a news release,
"The human cost of medical errors is high. Based on the findings of one major study, medical errors kill some 44,000 people in U.S. hospitals each year. Another study puts the number much higher, at 98,000. … The majority of medical errors do not result from individual recklessness…but from basic flaws in the way the health system is organized."

Iatrogenic errors kill people when, they would probably survive WITHOT treatment.

Errors in giving meds, nosocomial infx. kill a hell of a lot of folks.

And, in England, one of the most prolific murderers of all time, was a medical doctor who was INTENTIONALLY KILLING PATIENTS.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/UK/01/05/doctor.deaths/
"UK doctor may have killed 297

January 5, 2001
Web posted at: 5:47 AM EST (1047 GMT)


LONDON, England -- A British former doctor serving a life sentence for murdering 15 patients may have killed scores more during his 24-year career, according to an official report.

Harold Shipman recorded 297 more deaths at his practice in the northern English city of Manchester than other doctors working at a similar time in the same area.

A statistical audit of his clinical practice in Hyde between 1974 and 1998, published on Friday, found that the excess of deaths was greatest among women over 75.

Health Secretary Alan Milburn ordered the clinical audit after Shipman was convicted in January last year of murdering 15 of his elderly women patients by giving them overdoses of diamorphine, the legal term for heroin. He was later struck off the medical register.

AUDIO
Walter Rodgers discusses the Harold Shipman case:

“All of his victims were women.”
308K/43 sec.
AIFF or WAV sound

“Fascinated with the death process.”
229K/22 sec.
AIFF or WAV sound

“A popular general practitioner.”
218K/18 sec.
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VIDEO ARCHIVE
Details from earlier Shipman investigations
Windows Media 28K 80K



Professor Richard Baker of the University of Leicester carried out the audit, the results of which have been passed on to the police and Crown Prosecution Service.

'Chilling reading'
Chief Medical Officer Professor Liam Donaldson said: "The questions raised in the report will be distressing reading to the patients and relatives who were under Shipman's care over the years, but it is important for their sake that this work has been done and is published. "

lol nice work codewarrior

LOL Code, this is a very interesting point but I still believe that it does nothing to support gun ownership. As I said, for you to have a point, you will need doctors to kill more than they save (what guns do). Only then will you trap me into saying the doctors should be banned because they are of no benefits to the people using them.

But this is rather impressively scary.

Carla ...
"How do you stick a pencil through someone's brain?"

There are several access points for this.
1: Ocular Cavity ( the Eye )
2: Nasal Cavity ( up throught the nose ).
3: Soft Palate ( upward thrust through open mouth. Not easy, but possible.
4: Temple ( left or right ). No protective bone. Just soft cartilage, second easiest access from the front ( number 1, Ocular ).
5: From the rear, a small soft spot at the base of the skull, where the spinal column meets the skull. It is more common to use a long thin needle for this. Makes it difficult to determine cause of death.
Should I go on ???
I suppose not.
If someone wants to kill, a gun is not needed. Better to find the reasons so many are turning homicidal, instead of trying to take my guns from me, for when homoicidal folk wish to "visit" me.

actually from what i got from the news he thrust it straight down thru the top of his head must have hit one of the expansion joints

in the case of the kid with the pencil, it requred violent intent on the part of the kid wielding the pencil in order to make it lethal, most kids who blow away their friends with daddy's improperly stored dick extension do not intend to hurt anyone.

And who said anything about the "gubmint" busting down your door at night to confiscate your legally acquired firearms?

That has never been part of any gun control proposal i've heard of, and i've never heard of it ever happening in western nations with strict gun laws.

And let's say the authorities DO come after you for whatever reason, what exactly do you plan to do with that gun anyway? Shoot a cop? Maybe you might scare a few off but then a whole army is going to be on your doorstep, what then dumbass?

All of this paranoia about gun control being the first step on the slippery slope towards totalitarian oppression ignores the fact that those western nations with strict gun laws have not followed that path.

Lat time I checked, there weren't any tanks rolling down MY street.

You guys also operate on the assumption that your gun is the only thing keeping the government from instituting some Orwellian military state.

Totalitarianism has got to be one of the most expensive and inefficient types of government, it requires massive amounts of resources devoted to internal policing, border patrol and spy networks. it also make it impossible to maintain a free market economy which is where America's real power lies.

Only in a major state of emergency would it be economically justifiable, and only on a temporary basis.

Why any of you think that any government,(even under Bush), would want this to happen is beyond me.

carla it's not hard to stick a pencil in someone's brain.....i could kill more people w/ my shitty little escort on a playground than if i had a .50 cal chaingun. you people ever see the crime rate in australia since they took the guns away....last i check it was up 176%

oops sorry armed robbery is up 44% and homocide is up 300% sorry about the astoundingly LOW percentage last time

I keep hearing the Australia thing, does anyone have any evidence that gun control is the cause of those increases, it could be a lot of things. Based on the logic though, I would infer that America should have the lowest homicide and armed robbery rates in the world.

Also, it is still possible to legally acquire firearms in Australia isn't it? Otherwise, how do you keep the dingos from eating your baby?

"I keep hearing the Australia thing, does anyone have any evidence that gun control is the cause of those increases, it could be a lot of things. Based on the logic though, I would infer that America should have the lowest homicide and armed robbery rates in the world."

Read the article referenced earlier.
It does.
In the states where conceal and carry is allowed.

"Based on the logic though, I would infer that America should have the lowest homicide and armed robbery rates in the world."

Actually the US are the most violent western nation. Last time I checked there was a as many muders in any large american city (such as L.A. or Chicago) are there is in, for example, France (I guess same would apply to Germany, Spain...). It also is the western nation with the highest percentage of its population in jail (1 in 75 if I remember correctly). Not to mention that it is the only western nation with death penalty and the only country in the world to execute juveniles and mentally challenged people. Last but not least, each week in the US, more teenagers die from gun violence than in a year in France (again the example I know the best, but crime rates are similar troughout western Europe).

Look outside and you'll see a lot of safer countries with no guns.

well, i'm not here to mouth my opinion about guns and american stereotypes, but a few words: actually, i feel much safer here in germany because i know that it's illegal to have guns ....for selfdefense i could learn martial arts, no need to kill someone to defend yourself ....
ohwell, to me it seems that a lot of the gunsupporters livee still in the mccarty era where the communists (that defined everyone with a little more left view) were the most evil witches and had to be burnt...

ohwell, back to the initial reason why i wanted to comment on this article...
what i wanted to point out again is a fact that was mentioned, but unfortunately completely drowned out by the gun controversy:
comparing intellectual property laws and their enactment to the holocaust (or any other nazi practice) really goes over the line and is more than just a little inappropriate ....maybe it's because most of those writers have no connection to what actually happened in the holocaust ...but, believe me, just visit a nazi concentration camp in europe and you won't EVER make such a comparison again! when i was in school, i've been to Dachau with my class, that was an experience which deeply moved me ...maybe even watching it in a movie like schindler's list would help those insensitive authors to understand why i had to comment here again....

and a final remark about guns: Code, well, actually this remark about totalitarian states and guns isn't totally right ....or why do you think iraq has so many armed ppl?
your guns aren't there to protect you against any form of oppressive government, they are just dangerous killermachines with a huge lobby behind them ...much like the riaa...

oh, and one more thing... *sigh*, sorry, initially i really didn't want to mouth my opinion any more on this issue

recently, a pal from school who studied for a year in the us came back to germany and told us a few crazy stories...one of them was about him being in a car with pals of his gf ...those folks had a whole load of guns in their car (and later he got to know that they actually were involved in robbery) ...so, he sat in this car with all these maniacs and then suddenly a police car followed them ...just a coincidence, but they didn't know that at that time ...so, they pulled their car out at a gas station, police followed (another coincidence) they just wanted to refill) ...those youth folks sat in their car with their guns ready to shoot ....luckily the police really only wanted to refill and then drove away again

so.... my pal, by foolishly trusting some 'friends' of his gf, came into a pretty dangerous situation with guns

yes, right, it could also happen in any other country with youth who don't know what they're doing, but it wouldn't be so easy to obtain weapons and openly have them in a car in any country were weapons are illegal

as it was pointed out by carla, it's all about weighing the rights of the reasonable people against the rights of those who could get hurt by abuse of these rights...
the above example clearly shows that it's just way too dangerous to make access to weapons that easy -> logic consequence is that it has to get harder for EVERYONE to access weapons ...less guns means less danger, it's just that easy, but i know, you won't understand that .....*sigh* going back to stereotypes now