The recent passage (read: rubber-stamping) of the so-called “PIRATE[sic] Act” — which, despite its name, is not
anti-“piracy[sic]” but in fact anti-technology
— has had (or will have) the unfortunate effect of driving the U.S.A. deeper and deeper towards the level not only of totalitarian dictatorships like China, Cuba and North Korea with respect towards new technology and the Internet, but also towards the level of primitive Third World countries, many of which haven’t even been “connected” yet — and may well never be, thanks to this latest bid at suffocation. It will also permanently compromise this country’s moral authority with respect to our (hypocritical) criticisms of the respective countries’ deplorable human rights records, and will not only give such countries further impetus to disregard our lectures thereon, but also harden their own repressive policies.
Every last individual who voted for this retarded, fascistic measure — including its sponsors, chief among them Orrin “Down-the-” Hatch, who may just as well be a closet Marxist (his heartless advocacy of the confiscatory “sue-’em-all” policies that are mainly targeted towards the working poor, the weak, the vulnerable and the defenseless, for instance), and such infamous liberal leftists as Barbara Boxer and Patrick “F-You” Leahy — will go down in history as being to new technology what Joseph Stalin was to (est.) 30 million of his own people, what Mao Tse-tung was to 60 million of his own people, what Pol Pot was to millions of Cambodians, and what a certain European leader with a handlebar mustache . . . you get the idea. Their whole attitude in this enterprise gives new meaning to the old Biblical / Talmudic admonition that “He who is merciful towards the cruel, will end up being cruel towards the merciful.” Their callous disregard for (and depraved indifference to) the future in the name of “protecting” a few one-party tyranny / multinational entertainment-media conglomerates in bare-naked appeasement / pandering to their respective alphabet lobbies will have devastating consequences for the future development of society, and may well further accelerate the decline and fall of Western civilization, especially as it relates to the radical Islamists’ openly stated goal of destroying the West and replacing it with an Islamic theocracy guided solely by Islamic sharia
law (circa 9th century).
The rigid, absolutist, bigoted, fundamentalist thinking behind this hate-laden bill is not too dissimilar to but a few examples:
1) The anti-gun zealots’ attitude that every shooting episode is attributable to the existence of guns and the gun industry, and their belief that by outlawing guns, that’ll stop violence. But so-called “gun control,” according to some studies, has actually had the effect of disarming law-abiding citizens, while doing absolutely nothing to stop violent criminals from obtaining such weapons.
2) The dubious practice of “racial profiling”; that is, the attitude in some law-enforcement circles across the country that, say, if a young black male lives in a housing project, then automatically he will become a violent criminal, drug dealer, sadistic rapist etc. It is this attitude that explains all the controversies over the last few years – such as the case of a motorist being killed in New Jersey during a police chase over a drug search of the motorist’s car; people being randomly stopped and frisked at any times of the day; the Amadou Diallo shooting in 1989; and so forth. To say nothing of the murder of a West African immigrant in New York City during an RIAA raid last year.
3) The arrogant, elitist attitude that the “great unwashed” simply cannot be trusted with any such doodads as P2P networks or digital media of any kind. This mindset is basically an updated version of that exemplified by Alexander Hamilton, one of the Founding Fathers, who had the utmost contempt for the masses and made no effort whatsoever to hide it. His distrust of the public’s ability to handle the nation’s finances, for example, was part of what led him to launch the U.S. Treasury; his distrust of their ability to choose our leaders led to his establishing the Electoral College. This writer could go on, but he won’t.
That this corrupt travesty passed while the DMCRA is still in de facto
limbo shows that there is truly no justice in this country. It also underscores how truly dangerous the closed, exclusivist agenda of the RIAA, MPAA and BSA really is, and how – and the extent to which – the Orwellian–Stalinist DMCA has spread like a cancer or a virus that is extremely harmful (and potentially fatal) to the body. History has shown that no free or open society can function for long with any such straitjacketed restrictions, and that the end result of initiatives like this will be a closed society along the lines of the most repressive rogue regimes in the world.
And there is also the little matter of the very disturbing prospect of 60 million Americans essentially being completely disenfranchised from voting, serving on juries, or otherwise participating in the political process. There is no doubt in this writer’s mind that the RIAA-cists who pushed this know full well
that in many states, convicted felons cannot vote – which explains their push to make P2P use a felony. This stands to be the most sweeping disenfranchisement of an entire section of the population since racial segregation was institutionalized as the law of the land in the late 19th century. That, plus effectively relegating those 60 million to inferior, second-class status, with no rights whatsoever as enjoyed by the rest of the populace.
This latest injustice also calls to mind the time when the practice of eugenic sterilization
was sanctioned by the Supreme Court in 1927, therefore condemning tens of thousands of Americans – mostly poor, some “feeble-minded,” or of certain ethnic or minority groups, or drug addicts / alcoholics, or people with criminal records – to be subjected to this practice.
In sum, it’s as if Goliath had crushed David (instead of the other way around), or the lions finished off Daniel (among other examples). And if this becomes law, we may all as well be living under Communism in the old Soviet Union, or in such still-Communist countries as China, Cuba and North Korea. It is up to all of us to keep up the pressure in the House, a la Ronald Reagan’s challenge to Mikhail Gorbachev in 1987 in Berlin: “Tear down this wall!”
NEXT: How this development may actually serve to protect a certain political, social and cultural agenda from any and all scrutiny by its critics.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 4:37 AM
couldnt say it any better than this
this is the letter that should be sent to senators not the other one or how abouy both
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 9:13 AM
The beginnings of the fall of the second Roman Empire. We will now fall behind technology wise and the rest of the world will stomp us into the ground. Our Senators have thrown us to the lions.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 9:28 AM
Comparing gun control to outlawing peer to peer is stupid.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 10:23 AM
not really carla. gun control is stopping law abiding citizens from having guns just as the copyright laws and the effect of outlawing p2p is stopping law abiding citizens from having digital media.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 10:28 AM
I don't want to live in a neighborhood where "law abiding citizens" have guns. Law abiding citizens drink, have tempers and can be just plain idiots. Law abiding citizens let their young children have access to their guns.
Peer-to-peer doesn't kill.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 10:48 AM
it's not stupid carla60626. it's reality. it's the same principal. i can compare it to child porn if i wanted...different fruits, but they cost the same. in the end this country will fall...mankind's mentality is such that free societies are always limited in their existance. man always hunger for more power, more authority. that's why it's up to us "guntoting" citizens to wipe them out and for new free societies. once your guns are gone, you are powerless. what are you going to do? overthrow them with sticks and stones? I listened to a song a few years back, talking about what I would have then said is "conspiricy theorist stuff". when i listen to it now, it's like wow...it's all came true. it's only a matter of time until this website is taken offline. probably in the name of fighting terrorism. maybe they'll leave it up, just arrest all the members. you laugh now. how many far reaching laws have happened since Sept 11?
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 10:54 AM
If you want to own a gun, you shouldn't live in proximity to other people. You are dangerous. Same with cigarettes. Your actions affect me and my health. Go away. I have a right to live peacefully.
Peer-to-peer is qualitatively different.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 11:20 AM
Carla, yes, you do have a right to live peacefully.
I have a right to own a gun AND live peacefully.
Both should be our own personal choices.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 11:39 AM
Shit I moved out of the USSR for this shit?
Pftt give me Brezhnev and Kruschev again!
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 12:21 PM
Carla, you are an idiot. Thanks for playing. This is (for now) a free country, take your communist bullshit elsewhere.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 12:35 PM
thanks Carla for your input and don't be put out. There are others that feel like you do as to guns. Pete Seeger gave me one of his tunes with the words.,its called ,"Drop the gun". Damn good tune and says it all.
And yes peer to peer is different.
As to what Lord says about " communist bullshit". I have to say when I was in tour in Italy my best paying gigs were the communist gigs. They were the best done on that tour. I did not know before I was to head over there but as it turned out they were very cool.
So keep living in a peaceful world Carla and I will and many of us will too!
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 12:49 PM
I side with Carla. And although I support anti-RIAA activism and compulsory licensing, I TOTALLY disagree with the analogies drawn in this article.
I'm really starting to see a big chasm in this community, and in this website. It separates progressive people and borderline fascist neo-con.
Progressive people fight the RIAA because they see their business model as crushing and outdated. They don't support globalization because they think it is dysfunctional and generates suffering in both western and developing nations. They are the ones usually supporting Moore when people start talking about him on this website. They usually have leftist views.
The other side of the community doesn't give a shit about anything but attacks on what they perceived as "the mighty american way": God in the pledge of allegiance, guns and the right to shoot any federal employee or any trespasser. They despise the RIAA because they see it as an instrument of the government and for them any form of government is communist. They hate the RIAA because it is foreign, even mentioning things such as "jewish ownership" (dubbsack). They sometimes have violent names such as "killerontheroof". They compare the RIAA lawsuits, as bad as they are, to events still way more important and unrelated: terrorism, the holocaust, racism.
To be honest, those gun-toting, bible waiving, xenophobic and paranoid freaks give me the creeps. They make me want to leave this site because I want no association with Timothy McVeigh wannabees.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 12:57 PM
"To be honest, those gun-toting, bible waiving, xenophobic and paranoid freaks give me the creeps."
Good one Sfolivier!
I for one will keep trying to make a small part of the world better with music. In the end peace will win, not war. I try to look at it like a bar fight. In the end we have to try to find a way to talk to each other. That is what music is all about I feel. Break down the walls, throw away the guns and pick up you voice and sing. It works, I do it all the time.
Here is hoping Tom Paine's spirit is alive and well.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 1:39 PM
Insightful post, Sfolivier. Sometimes I think I'm at www.libertyforum.com when I read the posts.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 2:50 PM
Ok, I had a few more hours sleep, so just one more comment. It's interesting to me that free peer-to-peer appeals to both ideological factions. Are there other issues that do? Maybe it involves the same reasoning the ACLU defended the right of Nazis to march through Skokie.
I took issue with the logic of the above article, but all I could manage to say was the gun analogy was not apt. Thank you sfolivier for your analysis. And it's funny--I do wonder about some of the nicknames here. LOL
And Bill -- it's all about the music isn't it. Last night I heard some live latin jazz outside in our park. It was wonderful.
And one more thing killerontheroof (eek!): Ya govoryu po-ruski.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 3:36 PM
Not every one that believes in the right to
own and bear arms is a bible thumper or
paranoid freak. I for one border on the
lines of agnostic, and just because your
paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you
. Nor am I a republican in fact I am a
I was raised in a family where guns were a
sporting thing, not to be taken lightly.
Never once has anyone in my family or those
who we associate our selfs with have killed
or threatened anyone, not ever. You should
not assume that because you own a gun you
are a bad person. I have a right to kill
anyone who breaks into my house and tries to
rape my wife and kids. And yes I would
gladly kill that person without remorse. You
have no right to keep me from protecting
them from rapists killers or the government
or even you. We need to educate people on
common sense and gun safety. I wish you
could see the kind hearted honest sober
people I know who own guns. They do not kill
or threaten people. In fact you would never
know they were a gun owner unless you saw
them down at the local shooting range. To
say that everyone that owns a gun is a bible
waiving paranoid freak is the same as saying
that anyone who smokes pot is a druggie or
anyone who is gay is a child molester.
Criminals kill people and criminals will
kill people with or without guns. There is
enough room for us all on this earth if we
just give everyone some room. When we start
trying to take peoples rights away no matter
what it is thats when civil wars happen. And
believe me just because we are the united
states does not mean we are immune to that
sort of thing. It can happen very easily.
Someone told me once when I was a kid and I
will never forget this either he said
"humans are extremists by nature and we must
try and fight that urge". when I say that
its my right to own a gun that is not being
extreme nor you saying that I do not have
the right to own a gun that is not being
extreme either. But you saying that anyone
who owns a gun is a bible thumper,
republican, skin head, or a murderer is
Peace on earth and to all my
boycott-riaa.com friends peace to you.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 3:51 PM
Point made illtbag and I hear you. I live down south and here in VA. some of my friends do have firearms. Even had a girlfriend who was a good shot. But for me all I need is a good song and my guitar and if there is a threat , then I will sing.
When I use to ravel around and I was sleeping in my truck, someone came out to my truck and said, "Boy I had you in my gun sights". And I made damn sure I made eye contact and said, "Why?" He told me, "Well I did not know you Boy". I just took my hand out and touch his hand and said, "Hi, I'm Bill Hudson, how ya doing?". He just looked like he woke up from a bad dream.
If one looks , some folks are not criminals until they shot the wife or their husband because they wanted to see their TV show, it happens. A fight is one thing shooting is another.
Anyway, with music it really can save the world. One step at a time.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 4:31 PM
A few clarifications about Alexander Hamilton: He was in fact the first Secretary of the Treasury (under George Washington), however he did establish a national bank (which stabilized our country's finances at a time when our currency was the laughing-stock of the world), for motives along the lines of what was expounded above; and the Electoral College was based on his ideas of selecting a President and Vice President, with voting patterns in those days significantly different from today, but he himself did not physically start it; it was provided for in the Constitution. Still, his distrust of the common man resonates among the elites to this day, though many of his ideas DID keep the country together at the time, and for a long time afterwards. Yet I still wonder if, had he lived today, he would have supported the so-called "PIRATE[sic] Act."
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 4:52 PM
Illtbagu, I know that not all people with guns are bad people. But they are bad ones, and I'd rather have them unarmed even if it means that reasonnable people like you can't have a gun. As for my description, it is unfortunatly a trend, even if like all trends, it doesn't capture 100% of the situation.
Do you know you are more likely to be killed by a gunshot if you own a gun that if you don't. All statistics show that gun owners get involved in more violence than people who don't. Keep also in mind that 92% of murders are commited by people the victim knows, often family members.
I hear your point about the rapist breaking in your home. But the truth is that you are still safer without a gun than with one. False sense of security, wrong risk assessment.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 6:15 PM
Did you know you are more likely to be in a
car accident if you own and drive a car than
if you don't. I say for the sake of all
humanity we must submit our vehicles so no
more deaths can occur by these machines of
death. No I propose educating people about
driving safely. Education, Education,
Education, Education is the only way we can
have absolute peace. This means Educating
people with the truth and nothing but the
truth. There was a man not 6 months ago
where I live who escaped a mental hospital
and tried to kill some guy and his family at
night when they were sleeping. The victim
shot and killed the man just before he
reached for one of his children with a
butcher knife (at least thats how I remember
). Just remember that allot of
those statistics you read are conducted or
funded by special interest groups. The NRA
is not immune to this I do not side with the
NRA's data thats for sure. I don't believe
everything I hear. Go look at the crime
rates in Australia since they banned guns
and tell me home invasion and armed robbery
has not doubled. That is raw data that is
hard to manipulate. Your statistic about 92%
of murders are committed by people they
know. Lets take into account the statistic
that most child rapes are conducted by a
family member or close friend, know lets put
those two statistics together and account
for those fathers shooting their brother in
law for raping his 7 year old girl. Yeah
sure the idiot beating his wife on supper
bowl night is more likely to have a gun but
trust me when he is coming after you because
you were trying to stop him from choking his
wife to death and he is stabbing you with a
knife and I defend you with my .357 you will
be thanking me for being a honest kind
person who came to your rescue. This happens
all the time its no joke. It is a crazy
world we live in. We humans are all nothing
more than animals.
It wasn't always like it is today. People it
seemed were allot more responsible and safer
100-200 years ago. Its just escalating more
and more into a violent society. This to me
points to a more serous social problem.
Trying to take away all of those guns (what
is it something like 300 million) from
everyone in this country is going to be as
hard as taking away all of the knifes that
are longer than 4 inches. This would cause
another civil war. Its not going to happen
and we are better off right now starting to
educate our children about gun safety. I for
one will be there when the British try and
take over our country again just like they
have been doing to Ireland the last 50
years. We still have countries in this would
who are willing to impose their will upon
others. We are almost as bad as the British
but not quite. I hate bush I hate the
patriot act and all of those Nazi extremists
who impose it upon us all. But I will be the
guy in the front lines when the extremest
right wing born again freaks try and make
everyone attend church on Sunday and require
us all to have tracking chips implanted in
our arms. Its no joke people think it is
funny to think this way but look at history
then look at human nature. It is inevitable
it is going to happen. Maybe not quite like
how I explained it but you get the point.
The state I live in northern Nevada (Vegas
excluded they have laws in Vegas restricting
guns, their crime is one of the highest in
the country) I feel is very low in crime
considering most people are transients.
Something like 70 percent of all people who
move here move out within a few years.
Statistically I am not not sure how we stand
against the rest of the nation as far as
crime. But 90% of everyone who moves here
are Californians. They infest this place
with the crime they bring from there state,
but when they get here they find out really
fast that this isn't California and the
citizens can protect them selfs. We also
have some of the most lenient gun laws in
the nation. People don't break into homes
around here because they are afraid of
getting shot. No one gets mugged because the
criminals are unsure of who might have their
concealed weapons permit. Believe me the
"lets all sit around and do yoga and talk
peace and play our guitars sounds great" (by
the way I am not making fun of this idea I
believe in it myself) I wish it were like
that but humans are not that intelligent
yet. We have a few more thousand years to
go. Evolution will I feel will bring us to
that point if we let it. The more
restrictions you put on a society the more
the citizens feel they need to break those
restrictions. Just look at any socialistic
or communist country and tell me the people
are happier and safer. No I feel there needs
to be less laws. Thats right, lets go back
to the concept of common sense.
I would like to however compliment you on
your intelligence. You seem to be a very
smart person. We must all debate these
things. Most people don't even care to think
about these issues and are nothing more than
Peace to you my friend.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 7:04 PM
We need more money for mental health programs, that's for sure.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 7:39 PM
"The New Holocaust"?, You're comparing anti-piracy legislation to the Nazi's "Final Soloution"?
Hmmm. I didn't know so many gun freaks followed this site, I guess it's a refreshing change from all of the left-leaning loud mouth paranoics that usually post here, still...
I never thought i would be put in a position to defend socialism but to address Illtbagu's statement...
"Just look at any socialistic or communist country and tell me the people are happier and safer. No I feel there needs to be less laws. Thats right, lets go back to the concept of common sense."
Sweden, Finland, Norway, Germany, Canada.
All of the above nations are considerably more socialistic than the U.S. and all enjoy less crime, significantly less gun crime, and very few inhabitants of those nations would feel that living in America would make them "happier".
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 7:47 PM
I olden times, a gun was a tool, today, unless you live in a rustic rural setting, guns are a toy.
And don't give me any of this self-defence bullshit, your chances of using your gun to defend yourself are negligable compared to the likelihood of that gun being used by your kids, their friends, the guy who robbed your house while you were out of town, or yourself when you catch your girlfriend sucking off the mailman.
But don't let that stop you from defending the second amendment 'till you choke, i'll just sit up here in nice, frigid Canada where strict gun laws have not prevented us from owning a firearm for legitimate purposes and have not, to my knowledge, led to an erosion of our personal freedoms.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 7:53 PM
Omigod, you're comparing piracy laws to eugenic sterilization too?
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 8:17 PM
In a way, what the Senate "passed" yesterday DOES amount to a "final solution" on the RIAA's part. Think about it.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 8:47 PM
All I said is it should be and remain personal choice.
Atheist, by the way, no bible thumping here.
Assumptions are a great way to simplify things for the simple. The RIAA is doing it with the general poulation by feeding them simple sound bites and bullshit.
Assuming that all gun owners are "bad" simply because they own guns, is the same oversimplified crap.
Kinda like assuming all teenage males will die in car wrecks.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 9:08 PM
"Did you know you are more likely to be in a car accident if you own and drive a car than if you don't. "
Actually in this particular case, your logic is flawed. Your example should be: "People with cars don't travel or commute as easily as people without a car." That would make it equivalent to "People will gun die more from gunwounds than people without guns". We are talking about a self-defeating purpose, not a side effect.
It was said a couple of times in this topic: statistics show that owning a gun is dangerous, so dangerous that people trying to protect themselves with a gun are the usual victims of said gun. You CAN'T say that you own a gun for protection, this has been proven to be false.
So if you own a gun it's for other reasons. Fun, hunting, love of engineering, sport, collector... I would have no problem with that... if... you were not being more dangerous to your neighbors, their kids and anybody that crosses your path. So to summarize:
I don't like people with a hobby that makes them dangerous to their community, and I don't recognize them the right to protect themselves with a gun, because it's been proven actually make their life less safe.
Well, I know there will always be guns in the US. Just don't expect me to ever agree with it.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 9:12 PM
Last but not least. We clearly disagree but we can justify our different points of view, and we respect each other. I wish I could say the same for all the posters here.
Thanks for sharing your opinion and peace to you as well.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 9:18 PM
Totalitarian governments, when they take control, immediately do two things.
1) Get control of printing presses and as much media as possible
2) Identify gun owners and get their guns.
I am a gun owner. I also own a pickup. Both CAN be used as deadly weapons.
I CHOOSE how I use those devices. Luckily, I have not had to use either my vehice nor my firewarms to intentionally hurt anyone, and WOULD never do so, unless someone else's life was in danger.
Words, guns, autos, forks, knives, bricks...almost anything can be used to attack someone else.
The second amendment had a purpose. The founding fathers had direct experience with a tyrannical government running their lives. They also had lived in a world where foreign powers could take over a country which was undefended.
"A well regulated militia" was added, because, they knew that the "citizen soldier" was an important thing to have. But, it was also written in a time where the average adult male, had weapons, and knew the importance of being able to defend himself and his family. The founding fathers, in general, would find the unarming of a population as a horrible thing, even, unthinkable.
If a criminal knows one home has an adult with a gun who knows how to use it and is ready to defend his home, and another has someone with no weapons of defense, which home/person do you think he will choose to victimize?
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 9:20 PM
PS..more people die as a result of medical malpractice and medical incompentence every year, than are killed by use of firearms.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 10:10 PM
"I am a gun owner. I also own a pickup."
Oh my god this is so cliche LOL. Do you have
a gun rack too
Ok, no kidding. Fine with me Code if you
don't want to admit that you are safer
without a gun than with a gun, fine. But
please don't hold on this as if it was a
fact, it's not. It's the other way around.
Thanks to having a gun you are now more
likely to be killed by a gun. Yes, even with
all the burglars and psycho out there, they
are still less dangerous to your family as
your gun. So pleeeeease, stop using
self-defense as an rationale for having
guns. IT DOESN'T WORK.
PS: Code you are not logical in your example
with malpractice. The correct analogy would
be "Medecine kills more people than lack of
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 10:36 PM
Thanks Code, for coming to the rescue with your own wonderful brand of common sense!
There are way too many labels flying around this place tonight. Let's use our heads, and get back to fighting the enemy, not hurling made up statistics at each other.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 10:38 PM
I think bad spelling kills more people than guns.
Seriously, I do.
Date: June 26, 2004 @ 11:47 PM
MikeGruz--Agreed. I know it kills me!!
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 12:20 AM
hahaha Mike and shadowmom. I'm the worse assissan there is then.
I once told a room full of teachers in a college class I was in that as long as people understood what I'm saying that's all that matters. the crushing silence and gasps of horror filled the room.
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 1:04 AM
"Words, guns, autos, forks, knives, bricks...almost anything can be used to attack someone else."
Yes, but a kid can't blow his friend's brains out with a fork.
Y'know Code? you may be a responsible gun owner, i'll take your word for it, but are you speaking for the guy sitting in the pick-up next to you? Sipping whiskey out of a coke can? Feeling like hot shit 'cuz he's packing heat in the glove box?
I know it's a stereotype but those guys do exist, along with gun-toting urban youths, obsessive jealous despondent ex-boyfriends, un-diagnosed mental cases, and curious kids looking under their parents' bed.
They are who I'm worried about
The laws aren't for you, they're for the other idiots who don't have common sense.
If it weren't for those people we could throw the lawbooks away and live in blissful anarchy.
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 2:04 AM
we've had our differeances here but on this point you are right on .
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 7:32 AM
SCARY: guy sitting behind wheel sippin whiskey or heater in glove box. now statistically which is more dangerous10/4 ???flbgbt code and illtbagu youse speaks fo me !!
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 7:47 AM
In a sane society with a benevolent government that is of, by, and for the people, you don't need a gun. I would certainly choose to live in a country like that without need for a gun...
too bad the USA does NOT meet that criteria anymore.
I predict a very bloody revolution within 5-10 years.
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 12:48 PM
You should have a right to bear arms should
you choose, when the country is threatened.
There are countries that have a law banning
the use of a gun. But here's the problem in
See, that doesn't stop the bad guys from
using a gun. And if the bad guys use a gun,
and you get shot without being able to
protect yourself at all...
Well, dead is dead either way. But that's
only in a worst case scenario.
"Yes, but a kid can't blow his friend's
brains out with a fork."
True, but an 11 year old can slash her
friend to death without the use of a gun:
Nothing more than tools... A deadly tool
but something not to be taken lightly. If
people want to try to go in your home and
you don't have a gun, that doesn't make you
any less lethal when you say "make my day."
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 12:50 PM
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 1:12 PM
here in portland a couple kids were goofing around and one got pissed at the other and stuck a pencil through his brain , are we gonna take pencils away from people too lol. as far as siting facts about people with guns being victims thats just pure bullshit what about the fact that the people in florida that can carry concealed now have just about eliminated the muggings and rapes that were rampant in that state
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 1:24 PM
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 1:55 PM
I really love boycott-riaa.com its a great
place and I have been coming here for I
think the last 3 years. You are a great
bunch of people. Even though we didn't agree
on a very controversial topic no one said
anything stupid or got mad. I just wanted to
say how cool that is. I guess it shows the
level of intelligence in this community
I just wanted to argue one more point if
guns don't constitute self protection then
why do cops and the military carry guns.
Also who do you propose will knock on my
door one night to take away my guns when we
make guns illegal. Will this person that
will be taking my guns be carrying a gun.
Who will his authority be, the US
government. Will the US government be
allowed to have guns. If the government is
not allowed to have guns then who will
enforce our government the United Nations
perhaps. Isn't this what all of the
conspiracy theorists and paranoid freaks
have been warning us about. What term do
they use for this phenomenon again? Oh yes
the scary freaking "new world order"!!!!
Just another form of what Hitler believed in
and nothing more.
There will always need to be someone with
the power of authority to monitor and
control our society. Its not any more
complicated than some basic psychology. Its
the same as a kid with no parents. If a
child grows up with no parents then he for
sure will be a trouble child doing what ever
he likes without consequences. There must be
authority its just human nature. I would
much rather the authority be in the hands of
the American people and the responsibility
handed to every single individual rather
than solely to one person. That is what
makes it a democracy. With that power comes
some down side of things, and that is
responsibility. Freedom to bear arms is just
one example of responsibility that are
written in the constitution that the fathers
of this country gave to us. They were the
smartest men who ever walked the face of
this earth for they new of there own
temptations and evil that wants to control
and ravage society. Don't think for a moment
that you are any different than I am. We all
have those power hungry desires that corrupt
society. Some can control it and others
cant. The American people armed and
potential dangerous keeps those individuals
from taking us over. Its probably the only
thing that has stopped the bush
administration from trying to declare a
complete police state on our entire nation.
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 2:23 PM
How do you stick a pencil through someone's brain?
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 2:38 PM
Good point burner97119
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 4:53 PM
I think that I would have actually read it if it actually spelled out what it was talking about instead of spewing opinion. Screw that.
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 5:26 PM
carla im not kidding a 10-11 year old kid stuck a pencil thrugh the top of anotyher kids skull into his brain
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 5:28 PM
lol another sorry (typo)
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 5:55 PM
RIAA=NAZIs=Holocaust=Lack of Credibility
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 7:00 PM
"Medecine kills more people than lack of
Not true Sfolivier... please check out these
"From the April 1999 Idaho Observer:
JAMA stats tell the tale
Doctors kill more people than guns and
by Don Harkins
SANDPOINT -- Last St. Patrick's Day,
Sandpoint Chiropractor Blaze Welch gave a
lecture on how to “get off of the disease
scary-go-round” at the Gardenia Center here.
The purpose of the talk, which was sponsored
by the North Idaho chapter of Vaccination
Liberation, was to teach people that they
are responsible for their own health. Dr.
Welch also discussed figures from right out
of the Journal of the American Medical
Association (JAMA) which prove, through
accurate interpretations of their own words,
that in the last century we chose the wrong
fork in the road with regard to our health
care paradigm. "
"The top five causes of death in the United
States, in order, are: Tobacco, alcohol,
medical malpractice, traffic and firearms.
According to JAMA, doctors kill more people
than auto accidents and guns. With that in
mind, one has to wonder why gun control is
such a hot legislative issue when, perhaps,
we should be more concerned about doctor
“The number of people that doctors kill per
day from medical malpractice is roughly
equal to the amount of people that would die
if every day, three jumbo jets crashed and
killed everybody on board,” commented Dr.
Welch who added, in defense of his own
profession, “just imagine what headlines
would result if a chiropractor or a
naturopath accidentally killed just one
"DOCTORS KILL MORE THAN GUNS
A recent article in the Seattle
Post-Intelligencer concerning accidental
deaths caused by physicians, from research
of Laura Key USA.
This triggered a chain of thought that
resulted in the person cruising the web
finding some statistics and doing a few
Number of physicians in the US -- 700,000
Accidental deaths caused per year -- 120,000
Accidental deaths per physician -- 0.171
Number of gun owners in the US -- 80,000,000
Number of accidental gun deaths/year (all
age groups) -- 1,500
Accidental deaths per gun owner -- 0.00001875
Ratio 0.171 / 0.00001875 -- 9,120 to one
Doctors are more than 9000 times more
dangerous than gun owners.
"A new book has been released by the
National Academies Institute for Medicine,
which concludes that the U.S. health care
system has some serious flaws. According to
a news release,
"The human cost of medical errors is high.
Based on the findings of one major study,
medical errors kill some 44,000 people in
U.S. hospitals each year. Another study puts
the number much higher, at 98,000. … The
majority of medical errors do not result
from individual recklessness…but from basic
flaws in the way the health system is
Iatrogenic errors kill people when, they
would probably survive WITHOT treatment.
Errors in giving meds, nosocomial infx. kill
a hell of a lot of folks.
And, in England, one of the most prolific
murderers of all time, was a medical doctor
who was INTENTIONALLY KILLING PATIENTS.
"UK doctor may have killed 297
January 5, 2001
Web posted at: 5:47 AM EST (1047 GMT)
LONDON, England -- A British former doctor
serving a life sentence for murdering 15
patients may have killed scores more during
his 24-year career, according to an official
Harold Shipman recorded 297 more deaths at
his practice in the northern English city of
Manchester than other doctors working at a
similar time in the same area.
A statistical audit of his clinical practice
in Hyde between 1974 and 1998, published on
Friday, found that the excess of deaths was
greatest among women over 75.
Health Secretary Alan Milburn ordered the
clinical audit after Shipman was convicted
in January last year of murdering 15 of his
elderly women patients by giving them
overdoses of diamorphine, the legal term for
heroin. He was later struck off the medical
Walter Rodgers discusses the Harold Shipman
“All of his victims were women.”
AIFF or WAV sound
“Fascinated with the death process.”
AIFF or WAV sound
“A popular general practitioner.”
AIFF or WAV sound
Details from earlier Shipman investigations
Windows Media 28K 80K
Professor Richard Baker of the University of
Leicester carried out the audit, the results
of which have been passed on to the police
and Crown Prosecution Service.
Chief Medical Officer Professor Liam
Donaldson said: "The questions raised in the
report will be distressing reading to the
patients and relatives who were under
Shipman's care over the years, but it is
important for their sake that this work has
been done and is published. "
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 7:32 PM
lol nice work codewarrior
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 9:16 PM
LOL Code, this is a very interesting point but I still believe that it does nothing to support gun ownership. As I said, for you to have a point, you will need doctors to kill more than they save (what guns do). Only then will you trap me into saying the doctors should be banned because they are of no benefits to the people using them.
But this is rather impressively scary.
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 11:02 PM
"How do you stick a pencil through someone's brain?"
There are several access points for this.
1: Ocular Cavity ( the Eye )
2: Nasal Cavity ( up throught the nose ).
3: Soft Palate ( upward thrust through open mouth. Not easy, but possible.
4: Temple ( left or right ). No protective bone. Just soft cartilage, second easiest access from the front ( number 1, Ocular ).
5: From the rear, a small soft spot at the base of the skull, where the spinal column meets the skull. It is more common to use a long thin needle for this. Makes it difficult to determine cause of death.
Should I go on ???
I suppose not.
If someone wants to kill, a gun is not needed. Better to find the reasons so many are turning homicidal, instead of trying to take my guns from me, for when homoicidal folk wish to "visit" me.
Date: June 27, 2004 @ 11:15 PM
actually from what i got from the news he thrust it straight down thru the top of his head must have hit one of the expansion joints
Date: June 28, 2004 @ 12:27 AM
in the case of the kid with the pencil, it requred violent intent on the part of the kid wielding the pencil in order to make it lethal, most kids who blow away their friends with daddy's improperly stored dick extension do not intend to hurt anyone.
And who said anything about the "gubmint" busting down your door at night to confiscate your legally acquired firearms?
That has never been part of any gun control proposal i've heard of, and i've never heard of it ever happening in western nations with strict gun laws.
And let's say the authorities DO come after you for whatever reason, what exactly do you plan to do with that gun anyway? Shoot a cop? Maybe you might scare a few off but then a whole army is going to be on your doorstep, what then dumbass?
All of this paranoia about gun control being the first step on the slippery slope towards totalitarian oppression ignores the fact that those western nations with strict gun laws have not followed that path.
Lat time I checked, there weren't any tanks rolling down MY street.
You guys also operate on the assumption that your gun is the only thing keeping the government from instituting some Orwellian military state.
Totalitarianism has got to be one of the most expensive and inefficient types of government, it requires massive amounts of resources devoted to internal policing, border patrol and spy networks. it also make it impossible to maintain a free market economy which is where America's real power lies.
Only in a major state of emergency would it be economically justifiable, and only on a temporary basis.
Why any of you think that any government,(even under Bush), would want this to happen is beyond me.
Date: June 28, 2004 @ 3:27 AM
carla it's not hard to stick a pencil in someone's brain.....i could kill more people w/ my shitty little escort on a playground than if i had a .50 cal chaingun. you people ever see the crime rate in australia since they took the guns away....last i check it was up 176%
Date: June 28, 2004 @ 3:28 AM
oops sorry armed robbery is up 44% and homocide is up 300% sorry about the astoundingly LOW percentage last time
Date: June 28, 2004 @ 3:44 AM
I keep hearing the Australia thing, does anyone have any evidence that gun control is the cause of those increases, it could be a lot of things. Based on the logic though, I would infer that America should have the lowest homicide and armed robbery rates in the world.
Also, it is still possible to legally acquire firearms in Australia isn't it? Otherwise, how do you keep the dingos from eating your baby?
Date: June 28, 2004 @ 9:36 AM
"I keep hearing the Australia thing, does anyone have any evidence that gun control is the cause of those increases, it could be a lot of things. Based on the logic though, I would infer that America should have the lowest homicide and armed robbery rates in the world."
Read the article referenced earlier.
In the states where conceal and carry is allowed.
Date: June 28, 2004 @ 2:31 PM
"Based on the logic though, I would infer that America should have the lowest homicide and armed robbery rates in the world."
Actually the US are the most violent western nation. Last time I checked there was a as many muders in any large american city (such as L.A. or Chicago) are there is in, for example, France (I guess same would apply to Germany, Spain...). It also is the western nation with the highest percentage of its population in jail (1 in 75 if I remember correctly). Not to mention that it is the only western nation with death penalty and the only country in the world to execute juveniles and mentally challenged people. Last but not least, each week in the US, more teenagers die from gun violence than in a year in France (again the example I know the best, but crime rates are similar troughout western Europe).
Look outside and you'll see a lot of safer countries with no guns.
Date: June 29, 2004 @ 8:28 PM
well, i'm not here to mouth my opinion about guns and american stereotypes, but a few words: actually, i feel much safer here in germany because i know that it's illegal to have guns ....for selfdefense i could learn martial arts, no need to kill someone to defend yourself ....
ohwell, to me it seems that a lot of the gunsupporters livee still in the mccarty era where the communists (that defined everyone with a little more left view) were the most evil witches and had to be burnt...
ohwell, back to the initial reason why i wanted to comment on this article...
what i wanted to point out again is a fact that was mentioned, but unfortunately completely drowned out by the gun controversy:
comparing intellectual property laws and their enactment to the holocaust (or any other nazi practice) really goes over the line and is more than just a little inappropriate ....maybe it's because most of those writers have no connection to what actually happened in the holocaust ...but, believe me, just visit a nazi concentration camp in europe and you won't EVER make such a comparison again! when i was in school, i've been to Dachau with my class, that was an experience which deeply moved me ...maybe even watching it in a movie like schindler's list would help those insensitive authors to understand why i had to comment here again....
and a final remark about guns: Code, well, actually this remark about totalitarian states and guns isn't totally right ....or why do you think iraq has so many armed ppl?
your guns aren't there to protect you against any form of oppressive government, they are just dangerous killermachines with a huge lobby behind them ...much like the riaa...
Date: June 29, 2004 @ 8:58 PM
oh, and one more thing... *sigh*, sorry,
initially i really didn't want to mouth my
opinion any more on this issue
recently, a pal from school who studied for
a year in the us came back to germany and
told us a few crazy stories...one of them
was about him being in a car with pals of
his gf ...those folks had a whole load of
guns in their car (and later he got to know
that they actually were involved in robbery)
...so, he sat in this car with all these
maniacs and then suddenly a police car
followed them ...just a coincidence, but
they didn't know that at that time ...so,
they pulled their car out at a gas station,
police followed (another coincidence) they
just wanted to refill) ...those youth folks
sat in their car with their guns ready to
shoot ....luckily the police really only
wanted to refill and then drove away again
so.... my pal, by foolishly trusting some
'friends' of his gf, came into a pretty
dangerous situation with guns
yes, right, it could also happen in any
other country with youth who don't know what
they're doing, but it wouldn't be so easy to
obtain weapons and openly have them in a car
in any country were weapons are illegal
as it was pointed out by carla, it's all
about weighing the rights of the reasonable
people against the rights of those who could
get hurt by abuse of these rights...
the above example clearly shows that it's
just way too dangerous to make access to
weapons that easy -> logic consequence is
that it has to get harder for EVERYONE to
access weapons ...less guns means less
danger, it's just that easy, but i know, you
won't understand that .....*sigh* going back
to stereotypes now
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