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Record industry sues 493 more U.S. music swappers
Posted by Advancedpepe512000 in on May 24, 2004 at 1:10 PM



The Recording Industry Association of America has now sued nearly 3,000 individuals since last September in an attempt to discourage people from copying songs through "peer to peer" networks like Kazaa and LimeWire.

The trade group, which represents the five largest recording companies, has settled more than 400 of those cases for around $3,000 each.

The RIAA does not yet know the identities of those it targeted in its latest round of lawsuits but plans to discover them through court-issued subpoenas.

The trade group turned to these "John Doe" lawsuits in January after an appeals court ruled that Internet service providers like Verizon Communications (nyse: VZ - news - people) do not have to provide customers' names to recording-industry investigators.

Also on Monday, the RIAA said it had sued 24 individuals by name after discovering their identities through John Doe suits.

Those sued by name had declined offers to settle out of court, the RIAA said.

"We will continue to go the extra mile and seek to resolve these cases in a fair and reasonable manner," RIAA President Cary Sherman said.

RIAA members include Warner Music Group, Bertelsmann AG's BMG, EMI Group Plc , Sony Corp.s Sony Music and Vivendi Universal's (nyse: V - news - people) Universal Music Group.

see story here

http://www.forbes.com/markets/newswire/2004/05/24/rtr1382290.html


User Comments

AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 2:23 PM
RIAA President...an Ish-Beshoth
DMemberbattousai99
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 2:23 PM
Wow, so some people are willing to fight? This will be interesting.
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 2:40 PM
"We will continue to go the extra mile and seek to resolve these cases in a fair and reasonable manner," RIAA President Cary Sherman said.

yeah, right

I agree battousai99 that's great the 24 will fight it. finally someones going to try. I hope the EFF, Leflaw and other lawers who are involed helps out
DMemberHammerofJustice
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 2:43 PM
So they have 24 actual suits to worry about, yep, this little charade is turning into quite the predicament isnt it.
DMemberHammerofJustice
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 2:47 PM
All it takes is one judge to say hey there isnt enough here to indict a person on, or well you just dont have a case, and you will see how 24 suits turn into 2400 counter claims. This is awesome, I would have never thought 24 people would have stepped up to the plate in such fashion, rock on.
Advancedpepe512000
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 2:54 PM
Perhaps these 24 will be added to the Michele Scimeca's RICO case....someday this will all backfire for the riaa..it will be interesting indeed to see how it all plays out.
DMemberisrafelli
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 2:57 PM
It's really odd that an entire industry really doesn't understand how much this hurts them. Every batch of law suits only fosters more anger.
DMembertds67
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 3:08 PM
I still don't understand why the press fell silent when the 12 year-old daughter of a welfare mom was sued last year. Could it possibly be because CORPORATE AMERICA owns them?
Intermediateboggieman
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 3:15 PM
Those sued by name had declined offers to settle out of court, the RIAA said.

"We will continue to go the extra mile and seek to resolve these cases in a fair and reasonable manner," RIAA President Cary Sherman said.

Sounds to me like they really don't want these cases to go to court, so they may attempt to resole them for less to prevent them from going to trial.

Gee....this may just spoil all their fun!
Intermediateboggieman
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 3:16 PM
oops! bad spelling...smack my lil fingers....resolve was what I meant not resole.
DMemberHammerofJustice
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 3:16 PM
I have thought about this a lot, as to why the big media giants seldom say anything about this, I guess in the end it doesnt matter, all you have to do is search RIAA on google, and guess which is the second page that comes up, boycottriaa.com. So my take is the information is out there, so long as you have an internet connection and most people do, you can stay informed.
WorldIndierockgal
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 3:32 PM
One has to realize that those meaning Pigmedia Bosses Michael Eisner, Edgar Bronfman,Andrew Lack, Sumner Redstone, Neil Shapiro, Jeff Zucker, Mel Karmazin do not only control the music and artists, but also control the flow of information. And who controls information has the power. This is why stories the pigmedia doesn't like are buried while as everyone can see as of late stories like the Iraqi Pow story are beaten to death. Anyone who knows it's history will tell you how pigmedia can swing public option can just look at the Vietnam War. The Iraqi Photos are just the latest to incite hatred toward the very troops liberalpigmedia loudly claim to support. The point is pigmedia are just going to report on the stories they themselves get off on while poor little 12 year old girls continue to be sued without the publics knowledge.....This people are the core values of BigPigMedia's mentality.... Sneakiness
DMemberkillerontheroof
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:02 PM
Anywhere I can donate to help those willing to fight pay for the bills?
Advancedmroop
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:07 PM
"I have thought about this a lot, as to why the big media giants seldom say anything about this"

You must not watch or read the news. I have seen a million reports on these lawsuits in the major media.

"The Iraqi Photos are just the latest to incite hatred toward the very troops liberalpigmedia loudly claim to support."

Yeah, it's better than the media doesn't report this administration's blatant disregard for the Geneva Convention rules. If our troops want to rape and murder Iraqi's who have not been found to have done anything wrong then that is fine with me. But when an American gets beheaded I will be really pissed off!
DMemberaxxis
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:12 PM
Let's find out if any of these 24 people end up suing the RIAA for harassment and extortion.

The game is over.
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:15 PM
You must not watch or read the news. I have seen a million reports on these lawsuits in the major media.

granted there has been a little more negitive media publicity in the press, newspapers mostly but every other major network I've seen shows these stories with the industry in a positive light. and file sharers as crooks
(most of us don't have the time to watch a number of news programs or read a multitude of newpapers to get a balanced perspective)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:15 PM
mroop said:
"I have seen a million reports on these lawsuits in the major media."

Wow...you either watch more TV than me...or you have that special cable package .
;) (Wink)
DMemberSatan1002
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:19 PM
Maybe mroop sends out the RIAA press releases.
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:26 PM
FYI - the link to the archived hearing of the Energy and Commerce subcommittee hearing on the Digitial Media Consumers Rights Act can be found here: http://energycommerce.house.gov/108/Hearings/05122004hearing1265/hearing.htm
Advancedmroop
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:26 PM
I have basic cable. The statistical studies have shown that the vast majority of file sharers are aware of the lawsuits. That is because of the news reporting. To say that the major media has not reported this story extensively is wacky. Btw, I work out of my house and I have the news on a lot during the day.
DMemberAirwolf1701
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:29 PM
Mroop must have that special filter built into his tv set that only shows what he wants to see. Everytime I have seen the nightly News on the air it has always been for the benefit of the Corporations that own the music not a thing positive about file sharing or the people doing it. Witht he exception of Tech TV,not one of the major channels has said anyting good about people that share music online.

And BTW it's not the Administraions policy nor is it DOD policy to let those abuses occur. Those that did that are the ones responsable. Everyone that joins the military from the first day of Basic Training gets classes in how to handle POWs and they are constantly reenforced and those classes are in direct accordance with every Geneva Contvention article and law. We don't not condone the abuse or mishandleing of POW's no wmatter where they are in the process of their imprisonment. Those that did that are the ONLY ones that are responsable. Unless you have been there and worn the uniform ,then you might want to take a much deeper look into the facts before you spout off about the way the Military works mroop.
DMemberZipthack
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:30 PM
"It's really odd that an entire industry really doesn't understand how much this hurts them. Every batch of law suits only fosters more anger. "

That's for sure. The first thing I want to do when I read these press releases is fire up Peerguardian and my file-sharing program....and let the spite ensue!

F**k 'em. Those stupid bastards will never learn.
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:37 PM
Most people may be aware that there are lawsuits filed for "filesharing." The "major media" did report the story when the first lawsuits occurred. I don't think, however, that it's been reported on TV news that the lawsuits are continuing, that 3000 have been sued, or what the results of the suits have been. Print and internet media have reported it, and perhaps internet users are morelikely to learn of news updates on this subject that way.
Advancedmroop
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:38 PM
"Mroop must have that special filter built into his tv set that only shows what he wants to see. Everytime I have seen the nightly News on the air it has always been for the benefit of the Corporations that own the music not a thing positive about file sharing or the people doing it."

I said there was a lot of reporting. I did not comment on the slant of the reporting.

"And BTW it's not the Administraions policy nor is it DOD policy to let those abuses occur. Those that did that are the ones responsable."

Do the names Stephen Cambone or Douglas Feith mean anything to you? Probably not. This is going right to the top. Trying to hang this on some low level patsies is not going to fly.
DMemberHammerofJustice
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:40 PM
"You must not watch or read the news. I have seen a million reports on these lawsuits in the major media."

There is usually one small generic peice copied and pasted on the websites of the major media giants, from routers or what not, if you consider that coverage to each his own. You obviously lack reading comprehension, I was referring to the media giants, a million reports on the major media, dont make me laugh, its the same report verbatim. Last time I saw this covered was on January 21, 2004 by CNN, it was 11pm est, and it was about a whole min and a half. The fact is that the media giants do not say much on this, make a search and read msnbc, cnn, and fox, or whomever, you will realize it is the same one page peice you would find anywhere else.
Advancedmroop
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:40 PM
I"ll buy Carla's take. It is not being reported much anymore because it's not sexy anymore. It is now a dog bites man story.
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:57 PM
I love being the voice of reason :) (Smile)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 4:59 PM
"The statistical studies have shown that the vast majority of file sharers are aware of the lawsuits."

I think this is fascinating....I have long wished for the ability to read men's minds and know what they are aware of...I guess there have been great strides in forensic mind reading ...probably due to Bush's plan for that brain fingerprinting machine and the Minority report beta I hear they have now.
;) (Wink)
Advancedmroop
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 5:07 PM
You don't have to read minds. You just have to ask a question. For example:

Q: Are you aware that people are being sued for downloading music?

A: Yes.

It's called a survey. They do them all the time.
DMemberZheldon
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 5:10 PM
I think there was a misunderstanding here. Reading the above posts it seems some are upset over the media not reporting about file sharing unbiasedly. They only report on how it "hurts" the big corporations, nothing about the actual good and suprisingly legal uses of file sharing.
DMemberJohnCarlton02
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 5:10 PM
"Also on Monday, the RIAA said it had sued 24 individuals by name after discovering their identities through John Doe suits.

Those sued by name had declined offers to settle out of court, the RIAA said."

24 individuals willing to go to court. Verrrrry interesting...

These 24 should all ask for trials by jury. Oh please, oh please let me get called for one, just for the opportunity to derail the RIAA's evil schemes.
DMembertds67
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 5:27 PM
Modification to mroop's survey question:

Q: Are you aware that 12 year-old daughters of welfare moms are being sued for downloading music?

A: No.
WorldIndierockgal
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 5:31 PM
Let me be direct when I made mention of the Iraqi POW Photos, I have to say we are fighting a dirty war one which we have to use any means necessary to save American lives and the lives of our troops. The verdict is still out if we went to war right or wrong. I do know I like, everyone that fateful day seen 3000 people butchered in New York City on 9-11. Unlike mroop or feminized whinny CNN reporter Aaron Brown, I've lost any compassion for our enemies. I know that Bin Laden declared war on us both military and civilian alike and do not care if his so-called holy warriors obtain mercy. I do know that poor special forces solder who fell from that chopper was shot in cold blood by Al Qaedia, I do know that CIA agent Mike Span was torn to bits. I seen to photos that had our brave solders with bullets in their brains displayed on Aljazeera. So mroop you may feel for our enemies who wish to destroy us but I do not. And maybe if the Pigmedia could devote half the time into the story about the 12 year old girl being sued and express an unbiased approach to filesharing the way they're getting off on the Iraqi POW photos maybe something could be done.
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 5:40 PM
Sheesh, we're doomed if people actually believe this crap.
Advancedmroop
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 5:44 PM
LOL tds67. Just a clarification - Brianna and her mom live in government assisted housing. Her mom is not a "welfare mom".

IndieRockGuy - You are assuming that those who were tortured and murdered were "the enemy". Your assumption is incorrect. You should also know that The Pentagon was against the policy shift that led to the abuses. The military leaders were ignored by the civilians in The White House.

So if you are on the side of the military then you are with me and The Pentagon, not Rumsfeld and Feith and Cambone and Wolfowitz - who ignored the military and implemented their stupid policies that are now backfiring on them in a huge way.
Advancedmroop
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 5:46 PM
Here is what General Tommy Franks said about Douglas Feith:

"the fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth."
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 5:52 PM
mroop said:
"You don't have to read minds. You just have to ask a question. For example:

Q: Are you aware that people are being sued for downloading music?

A: Yes.

It's called a survey. They do them all the time."

Mroop...you said "The statistical studies have shown that the vast majority of file sharers are aware of the lawsuits."

So, you say "the vast majority of file sharers are aware of the lawsuits."

and, then, in the follow-up, you apparently try to offer your reason for that statement is an answer in the affirmative on a survey. SOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo....
since you said "the vast majority" of file sharers..if we take the usual estimate of 60 million people in the US as file sharers, or participating in the file sharing activity (using P2P), that means you must be referring to a study that has taken a sample far in excess of 30 million people ("the vast majority")...

I would LOVE to get a link to your study that has that large a sample of persons who took the survey! Please post that 30 million plus survey link..and thanks in advance ;) (Wink)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 5:54 PM
I have MORE than basic cable, and I have never ever seen 1,000,000 reports on ANY subject matter.
:) (Smile)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 5:55 PM
LOL..."General Tommy Franks", like I give a shyte about what anyone named after a hotdog, or a wiener :) (Smile) would say about someone ELSE being stupid.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 5:57 PM
and, don't try to say he was named after the people called The Franks...he's too much of a tube steak to lay claim to noble heritage ;) (Wink)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 6:01 PM
Shyster to alleged file sharer...
"Q: Are you aware that people are being sued for downloading music?"

"A.No"

Q. Didn't you take the 31 million man survey?
A. NO

I don't know when "downloading music" was enough to get you sued.
I thought they were being sued for alleged copyright infringement.

or being friggin' PIRATES L:O (Oops)LOLOLOLOLOL
WorldIndierockgal
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 6:04 PM
We are all doomed if we allow Pigmedia to sway the public like the way these slugs did during the Vietnam War because I assure you the Cong are not going to stay in Southeast Asia this time. Al Qaedia will make every effort to kill us both here and overseas and just one horrifying view of the Nick Berg beheading video makes me a believer what's in for all of us is the roles were reversed and Bin Laden had us in his jails. Again if pigmedia devoted half the time they did on the Nick Berg murder or the 12 year old girl the way the got off on the Iraqi POW story ect. ect. ect.
Advancedmroop
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 6:51 PM
"you must be referring to a study that has taken a sample far in excess of 30 million people"

Come on now, Coce. You are just playing dumb. Two can play at that game.

"if we take the usual estimate of 60 million people in the US as file sharers"

I would LOVE to get a link to your study that has that large a sample of persons who took the survey! Please post that 60 million plus survey link..and thanks in advance ;) (Wink)
Advancedmroop
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 7:03 PM
Code - Here is some information for you on statistical sampling. Enjoy. : )

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Statistical%20sampling
DMembermad-sailor
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 7:07 PM
How much does it cost to do a US-wide survey? Maybe we should fund this and figure it out...
Advancedcaptdunsel
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 7:37 PM
oh dayum! I got to piss the world off here.

Yeah, yeah, we've all heard the rhetoric about how filesharing is eviscerating the music industry. We probably all know about the lawsuits. We all know how horrible the US armed forces are treating the Iraqis and how all of the middle east countries are horrified and appalled at the total disregard for humanity the US is showing over there.

So let me put it this way.

1. Since when is it more important to devote the resources of a multi billion dollar industry to destroying the lives of some poor ghetto children than it is to develop and market a decent product?

2. I challenge ANYONE. let me repeat that mroop, I CHALLENGE ANYONE to show me a middle eastern country that has a better human rights record than the US. No they shouldn't have abused the poor Iraqis, but then they were so well off under Saddam Hussien that we shouldn't have even been over there in the first place. If you live in a glass house you shouldn't behead people in your living room and then complain because your neighbors are playing their tv too loud.

3. most importantly. everyday I drive by some pretty bad neighborhoods (not that the one I live in is that great) I see poverty, despair, hunger, hopelessness and worse, anger. All of that gets ignored or back burnered or forgotten. I wonder why, when there are so many people in our own country who will go to bed tonight without eating our government can't find anything more constructive to do with our money than write laws that allow foreign companies to sue American consumers, pass laws to allow foreign companies to rape American industry and totally destroy entire countries on behalf of select American companies? And why does our media chew it up and spit it down our throats as if we will die without their gentle nurturing?


hmmm, maybe somebody just needs to tell me what to think so I don't have to be bothered with all this.
Advancedcaptdunsel
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 7:40 PM
Oh, I'm sorry, we were talking about a survey huh? Has anyone done a survey on whether or not anyone really gives a shit?

*end of rant* go back to sleep now
Intermediateboggieman
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 8:01 PM
I have always found that you can't believe everything you read and hear in the news. For one...the news media has the ability to edit things for various reasons, one of which is to make a story to be one of interest. This helps bring in advertisers and at a premium price. So with that said....news can tend to be somewhat a distortion of the truth at times. It is up to the individual to be able to decide what is to be believed.
Intermediateboggieman
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 8:05 PM
Also, surveys can be distorted as well. Nothing is 100% perfect. Surveys also shouldn't be considered as something written is stone. Surveys are only data used to assist and help, not determine an outcome of anything.
Intermediateboggieman
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 8:06 PM
oops....did it again....written IN stone, not written as stone.
Intermediatesurfside6
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 8:15 PM
It looks like dump on Mroop time...
Any lawyer (even Mroop) will tell you to settle for $3,000. You cannot even get a just passed the bar lawyer for that cheap.

This is all part of a plan by them to sue filesharing out of exsistance. If the settlement was $300,000 or even $30,000 people would fight. They sue you, you serttle, they get your supply of music off the net for maybe $500.

Now does it work, minimally, it gets the identified off the net. Maybe scares the people who legally share off of p2p because they make a mistake.

You know that the 24 who are fighting will either settle or if they win the verdict will be appealed, just like the tobacco companies (finally the states had to go after them). For the people to win it is going to take the ACLU and the Supreme court to decide this one

Maybe instead of the same old bla-bla someone with economics degree should comment. Not the same old "riaa will die" rhetoric but how their whole plan may either succeed or be their demise. Also what fundumental forces will cause change.
WorldIndierockgal
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 8:21 PM
Yeah I give a shit. And all of us who vent and rant about a destructive media and how it bribes government officials. A media that destroys creativity in music. I'm here to shed some light on Indie Artist who can't get a break because of the 900 lbs gorilla called the Riaa. I'm here because I hate the likes of Edgar Bronfman who doesn't have the guts to follow our laws and sets up shop overseas to do their dirty business and sue our people. I'm here because I see the negative impact Mel Karmazin, Sumner Redstone, Jeffrey Katzenberg, and the Weinstein brothers have on our cultural and our children with their pre-teen porn flicks and it's nipplegate. Most of all I'm here because of the music. I'm here because music lovers shouldn't be sued anywhere because they have made a choice other than what the pigmedia wants. Best of all I'm here because of freedom, the freedom to state my views without a liberal or conservative spin. I'm here because this is the true free press. So ya I give a shit.
Advancedmtekk
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 9:20 PM
thoes RIAA bastards can rot in hell as far as i'm concerned
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 9:29 PM
mroop said "Come on now, Coce."

Who is this Coce person mroop?
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 9:30 PM
i took non-parametric statistics and some other statistics courses and passed them mroop...did you?
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 9:31 PM
you lost the argument through your hyperbole mroop, but of course, you will not have the good grace to admit it :) (Smile)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 9:41 PM
CLASSIFICATION OF ERRORSSince the sample is only part of the whole, extrapolation inevitablyleads to errors. These are of two kinds: sampling error (“random error”)and non-sampling error (“systematic error”). The latter is often called“bias,” without connoting any prejudice. Sampling error results from theluck of the draw when choosing a sample: we get a few too many units ofone kind, and not enough of another. The likely impact of sampling erroris usually quantified using the “SE,” or standard error. With probabilitysamples, the SE can be estimated using (i) the sample design and (ii) thesample data.As the “sample size” (the number of units in the sample) increases,the SE goes down, albeit rather slowly. If the population is relatively ho-mogeneous, the SE will be small: the degree of heterogeneity can usuallybe estimated from sample data, using the standard deviation or some anal-ogous statistic. Cluster samples—especially with large clusters—tend tohave large SEs, although such designs are often cost-effective.Non-sampling error is often the more serious problem in practicalwork, but it is harder to quantify and receives less attention than samplingerror. Non-sampling error cannot be controlled by making the samplebigger. Indeed, bigger samples are harder to manage. Increasing thesize of the sample—which is beneficial from the perspective of samplingerror—may be counter-productive from the perspective of non-sampling
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Sampling3error. Non-sampling error itself can be broken down into three maincategories: (i) selection bias, (ii) non-response bias, and (iii) responsebias. We discuss these in turn.(i) “Selection bias” is a systematic tendency to exclude one kind ofunit or another from the sample. With a convenience sample, selectionbias is a major issue. With a well-designed probability sample, selectionbias is minimal. That is the chief advantage of probability samples.(ii) Generally, the people who hang up on you are different fromthe ones who are willing to be interviewed. This difference exemplifiesnon-response bias. Extrapolation from respondents to non-respondents isproblematic, due to non-response bias. If the response rate is high (mostinterviews are completed), non- response bias is minimal. If the responserate is low, non- response bias is a problem that needs to be considered. Atthe time of writing, U.S. government surveys that accept any respondentin the household have response rates over 95%. The best face-to-faceresearch surveys in the U.S., interviewing a randomly-selected adult in ahousehold, get response rates over 80%. The best telephone surveys getresponse rates approaching 60%. Many commercial surveys have muchlower response rates, which is cause for concern.(iii) Respondents can easily be lead to shade the truth, by interviewerattitudes, the precise wording of questions, or even the juxtaposition ofone question with another. These are typical sources of response bias.Sampling error is well-defined for probability samples. Can the con-cept be stretched to cover convenience samples? That is debatable (seebelow). Probability samples are expensive, but minimize selection bias,and provide a basis for estimating the likely impact of sampling error.Response bias and non-response bias affect probability samples as wellas convenience samples.TRADING NON-RESPONDENTS FOR RESPONDENTSMany surveys have a planned sample size: if a non-respondent is en-countered, a respondent is substituted. That may be helpful in controllingsampling error, but makes no contribution whatsoever to reducing bias. Ifthe survey is going to extrapolate from respondents to non-respondents, itis imperative to know how many non-respondents were encountered.HOW BIG SHOULD THE SAMPLE BE?There is no definitive statistical answer to this familiar question. Big-ger samples have less sampling error. On the other hard, smaller samples
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4David A. Freedmanmay be easier to manage, and have less non- sampling error. Bigger sam-ples are more expensive than smaller ones: generally, resource constraintswill determine the sample size. If a pilot study is done, it may be possibleto judge the implications of sample size for accuracy of final estimates.The size of the population is seldom a determining factor, providedthe focus is on relative errors. For example, the percentage breakdown ofthe popular vote in a U.S. presidential election—with 200 million potentialvoters—can be estimated reasonably well by taking a sample of severalthousand people. Of course, choosing a sample from 200 million peopleall across the U.S. is a lot more work than sampling from a population of200,000 concentrated in Boise, Idaho.STRATIFICATION AND WEIGHTSOften, the sampling frame will be partitioned into groupings called“strata,” with simple random samples drawn independently from each stra-tum. If the strata are relatively homogeneous, there is a gain in statisticalefficiency. Other ideas of efficiency come into play as well. If we sam-ple blocks in a city, some will be sparsely populated. To save interviewertime, it may be wise to sample such blocks at a lower rate than the densely-populated ones. If the objective is to study determinants of poverty, it maybe advantageous to over-sample blocks in poorer neighborhoods.If different strata are sampled at different rates, analytic proceduresmust take sampling rates into account. The “Horvitz-Thompson” estima-tor, for instance, weights each unit according to the inverse of its selectionprobability. This estimator is unbiased, although its variance may be high.Failure to use proper weights generally leads to bias, which may be largein some circumstances. (With convenience samples, there may not be aconvincing way to control bias by using weights.) An estimator based ona complex design will often have a larger variance than the correspondingestimator based on a simple random sample of the same size: clustering isone reason, variation in weights is another. The ratio of the two variancesis called “the design effect."RATIO AND DIFFERENCE ESTIMATORSSuppose we have to audit a large population of claims to determinetheir total audited value, which will be compared to the “book value.”Auditing the whole population is too expensive, so we take a sample. Arelatively large percentage of the value is likely to be in a small percentageof claims. Thus, we may over-sample the large claims and under-sample
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Sampling5the small ones, adjusting later by use of weights. For the moment, however,let us consider a simple random sample.Suppose we take the ratio of the total audited value in the sampleclaims to the total book value, then multiply by the total book value ofthe population. This is a “ratio estimator” for the total audited valueof all claims in the population. Ratio estimators are biased, because theirdenominators are random: but the bias can be estimated from the data, andis usually offset by a reduction in sampling variability. Ratio estimatorsare widely used.Less familiar is the “difference estimator.” In our claims example, wecould take the difference between the audited value and book value for eachsample claim. The sample average—dollars per claim—could then bemultiplied by the total number of claims in the population. This estimatorfor the total difference between audited and book value is unbiased, andis often competitive with the ratio estimator.Ratio estimators and the like depend on having additional informationabout the population being sampled. In our example, we need to knowthe number of claims in the population, and the book value for each; theaudited value would be available only for the sample. For stratification,yet other information about the population would be needed. We mightuse the number of claims and their book value, for several different stratadefined by size of claim. Stratification improves accuracy when there isrelevant additional information about the population.COMPUTING THE STANDARD ERRORWith simple random samples, the sample average is an unbiased es-timate of the population average—assuming that response bias and non-response bias are negligible. The SE for the sample average is generallywell approximated by the SD of the sample, divided by the square rootof the sample size. With complex designs, there is no simple formula forvariances; procedures like “the jackknife” may be used to get approximatevariances. (The SE is the square root of the variance.) With non-linearstatistics like ratio estimators, the “delta method” can be used.THE SAMPLING DISTRIBUTIONWe consider probability samples, setting aside response bias and non-response bias. An estimator takes different values for different samples(“sampling variability”); the probability of taking on any particular valuecan, at least in principle, be determined from the sample design. The
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Page 6
6David A. Freedmanprobability distribution for the estimator is its “sampling distribution.” Theexpected value of the estimator is the center of its sampling distribution,and the SE is the spread. Technically, the “bias" in an estimator is thedifference between its expected value and the true value of the estimand.SOME EXAMPLESIn 1936, Franklin Delano Roosevelt ran for his second term, againstAlf Landon. Most observers expected FDR to swamp Landon—but notthe Literary Digest, which predicted that FDR would get only 43% of thepopular vote. (In the election, FDR got 62%.) The Digest prediction wasbased on an enormous sample, with 2.4 million respondents. Samplingerror was not the issue. The problem must then be non-sampling error,and to find its source, we need to consider how the sample was chosen.The Digest mailed out 10 million questionnaires and got 2.4 mil-lion replies—leaving ample room for non-response bias. Moreover, thequestionnaires were sent to people on mailing lists compiled from carownership lists and telephone directories, among other sources. In 1936,cars and telephones were not as common as they are today, and the Di-gest mailing list was overloaded with people who could afford what wereluxury goods in the depression era. That is selection bias.We turn now to 1948, when the major polling organizations (includ-ing Gallup and Roper) tapped Dewey—rather than Truman—for the pres-idency. According to one celebrated headline,DEWEY AS GOOD AS ELECTED, STATISTICS CONVINCE ROPER.The samples were large—tens of thousands of respondents. The issue wasnon-sampling error, the problem being with the method used to choose thesamples. That was “quota sampling.” Interviewers were free to chooseany subjects they liked, but certain numerical quotas were prescribed. Forinstance, one interviewer had to choose 7 men and 6 women; of the men,4 had to be over 40 years of age; and so forth.Quotas were set so that, in the aggregate, the sample closely resem-bled the population with respect to gender, age, and other control variables.But the issue was, who would vote for Dewey? Within each of the samplecategories, some persons were more likely then others to vote Republican.No quota could be set on likely Republican voters, their number being un-known at the time of the survey. As it turns out, the interviewers preferredRepublicans to Democrats—not only in 1948 but in all previous electionswhere the method had been used.
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Page 7
Sampling7Interviewer preference for Republicans is another example of selec-tion bias. In 1936, 1940, and 1948, Roosevelt won by substantial margins:s (Irked)election bias in the polls did not affect predictions by enough to matter.But the 1948 election was a much closer contest, and selection bias tiltedthe balance in the polls. Quota sampling looks reasonable: it is still widelyused. Since 1948, however, the advantages of probability sampling shouldbe clear to all.Our final example is a proposal to adjust the U.S. census. This is acomplicated topic, but in brief, a special sample survey (“Post Enumera-tion Survey”) is done after the census, to estimate error rates in the census.If error rates can be estimated with sufficient accuracy, they can be cor-rected. The Post Enumeration Survey is a stratified block cluster sample,along the lines described above. Sample sizes are huge (700,000 peoplein 2000), and sampling error is under reasonable control. Non-samplingerror, however, remains a problem—relative to the small errors in the cen-sus that need to be fixed. For discussion from various perspectives, seeImber (2001). Also see Freedman and Wachter (2003).SUPERPOPULATION MODELSSamples of convenience are often analyzed as if they were simple ran-dom samples from some large, poorly-defined parent population. This un-supported assumption is sometimes called the “super-population model.”The frequency with which the assumption has been made in the past doesnot provide any justification for making it again, and neither does thegrandiloquent name. Assumptions have consequences, and should onlybe made after careful consideration: the problem of induction is unlikelyto be solved by fiat. For discussion, see Berk and Freedman (1995).An SE for a convenience sample is best viewed as a de minimis errorestimate: if this were—contrary to fact—a simple random sample, theuncertainty due to randomness would be something like the SE. However,the calculation should not be allowed to divert attention from non-samplingerror, which remains the primary concern. (The SE measures samplingerror, and generally ignores bias.)SOME PRACTICAL ADVICESurvey research is not easy; helpful advice will be found in the ref-erences below. Much attention needs to be paid in the design phase. Theresearch hypotheses should be defined, together with the target popula-tion. If people are to be interviewed, the interviewers need to be trained
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:UxKhkqkAyLYJ src="http://images.dmusic.com/v7/emoticons/irked.gif" align="middle" alt=":s (Irked)" title=":s (Irked)" />tat-www.berkeley.edu/~census/sample.pdf+small+sampling+extrapolation+to+larger+population&hl=en

Mroop, surely someone as sophisticated and urbane as yourself has encountered the notion that extrapolation of conclusions made from a small sample, to the larger aggregate can, and certainly often DOES lead to errors.

For example, the "vast majority" of North Americans at this time, are white.
So, if you were to accept this "vast majority" of North Americans are white, and go and randomly select pedestrians (every four pedestrian walking north on a certain street) in HARLEM....I would tend to believe you might not get the same percentage of whites to non-whites, that you would if you selected people walking in downtown Salt Lake City in December 23rd.

I think that making a statement that the vast majority of file sharers know ANYTHING might not qualify for good scientific rigor my friend.

I think I probably took as many statistical courses as you, but you went the way of the law, and I went the way of the healing arts.
JazzJazzmary2U
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 9:47 PM
Wow.. such diatribes, folks! May I bring the conversation back to the original topic? Since the RIAA seems to think that suing everyone into submission is still a viable strategy, what are all you screamers doing about it? Are we still boycotting the RIAA crack-music garbage? Are we still promoting indie music? New DMusicites, are you joining in the boycott? And veteran members, are we continuing the fight against the RIAA goons?

BOYCOTT. EDUCATE. REGISTER. VOTE.
Advancedawehr
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 10:00 PM
"All it takes is one judge to say hey there isnt enough here to indict a person on, or well you just dont have a case, and you will see how 24 suits turn into 2400 counter claims."

but all it takes is one endictment to set a precedent which could screw us all.

in addition... please recall the provisions of the inappropriately named NET act.. criminal infringement for giving away any 10 copyright works worth $2400....

this may not be so good.
JazzJazzmary2U
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 10:02 PM
Mroop said earlier,"Here is what General Tommy Franks said about Douglas Feith:

"the fucking stupidest guy on the face of the earth." So I googled Douglas Feith.. scary, Mroop, this man is scary, indeed. Thanks for the headsup on that one. Mroop is a mystery to me, folks, but I appreciate his argumentative tenacity. I don't agree with him many times, but he sure makes me think things through. Thinking And, if you dig beneath all the hyperbole, you, too, will find nuggets to consider..
DMemberDCD-MP3
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 10:04 PM
Technically mroop I have come to the point where I care less and less about these lawsuits. It doesnt matter anymore people are always gonna pirate stuff regardless if they could file 60 million lawsuits. The only thing that will hold them back is their conscience
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 10:08 PM
mroop may be a female..we don't know.

i can disagree with mroop...but it's all in good fun...and I think he knows that...even if he hardly ever is on my side..grrrrrrrr
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 10:12 PM
whoops...I said "he"....I could be making a social faux pas

wasn't Mr. Oop the guy from that cartoon strip Alley Oop?
http://home.comcast.net/~cjh5801/Alley.htm
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 10:20 PM
More on Douglas Feith
http://middleeastinfo.org/article701.html

http://slate.msn.com/id/2100899/
"Of all the revelations that have surfaced about the Abu Ghraib prison-abuse scandal so far, the least surprising is that Douglas Feith may be partly responsible. Not a single Iraq war screw-up has gone by without someone tagging Feith—who, as the Defense Department's undersecretary for policy, is the Pentagon's No. 3 civilian, after Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz—as the guy to blame. Feith, who ranks with Wolfowitz in purity of neoconservative fervor, has turned out to be Michael Dukakis in reverse: ideology without competence. "

I agree that it was good Mroop brought up Mr. Filt...er...
Feith.
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 10:25 PM
ohmygod--do you think moopie is female?
That could explain why moopie doesn't flirt back ;) (Wink)
WorldIndierockgal
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 10:25 PM
Myself, mroop, Code, and the rest of us are what makes the world go round we are all expressing diverse views and different methods but I know we are all in solidarity when it comes to our disbelief and hated for the Pigmedia and it's RIAA. We can all agree to disagree but the main theme is the same and that's fighting back against the tyrannical music industry.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 10:26 PM
BTW..even though I took and passed all those statistics courses in undergrad school, I maintained to the professor that everything should be considered a 50/50 chance of happening...either it happens or doesn't.

Here's an interesting little page on probability theory
http://www.peterwebb.co.uk/probability.htm
Just a clip from it
"The Birthday Problem

Converse probabilities are used to work out the infamous birthday problem. Many people find the answer puzzling but it can be proved by either asking your personal manger for birthday dates or flicking through a the who’s who in your reference library.

The question is:-

"How many people should be gathered in a room together before it is more likely than not that two of them share the same birthday?"

Ignoring the issues of leap years the problem is solved as follows:-

When the first person enters the room and announces their birthday, the probability of the second person sharing the same birthday is 1/365. Conversely, the probability of the second birthday being different is the opposite of the first calculation, 364/365. When two birthdays are known, the probability of the third being different is 363/365, as there are now two 'favourable' outcomes among 365. The compound probability of birthday 2 being different from birthday 1, and of birthday 3 being different from the other two, these being independent outcomes, is:-

(364/365)*(363/365) = 0.991796 or 99.2% chance that two people will not share the same birthday.

Note the start of the sequence is (365/365). We have removed this as it does not affect the result of the calculation.

All that is necessary now is to continue adding terms to the fraction until it equals less than 1/2 or 50%, since as soon as the probability is less than 1/2 that all birthdays are different, the probability is clearly more than 1/2 that any two are the same. In other words it is more likely than not that two people in the room share the same birthday. The following chart shows the number of the people in the room and the probability that they DO NOT share the same birthday.


People
Chance %

2
99.7

3
99.2

4
98.4

5
97.3

6
96.0

7
94.4

8
92.6

9
90.5

10
88.3

11
85.9

12
83.3

13
80.6

14
77.7

15
74.7

16
71.6

17
68.5

18
65.3

19
62.1

20
58.9

21
55.6

22
52.4

23
49.3

24
46.2

50
3.0

100
3,254,690 to 1 on



The fraction drops to less than 1/2 with 23 iterations, so it is more likely than not that in any gathering of 23 or more persons, two of them will share a birthday.

Only 50 people need be present for the 'coincidence' of two of them having the same birthday to become, roughly, a 30-1 on chance.

In a company of 100 employees the odds are more than three million to one on that two share a birthday.

The birthdays proposition is one where a gambler who can estimate probabilities can make money from unsuspecting punters. "
=========================================
Back to the subject at hand though....
I'm not surprised they keep suing people...
Cary Sue is an IP atty...that's the way he
thinks you solve things...sue people...
if he was a pro wrestler...I guess he would
be trying to put them in a liplock...errr...I mean...
headlock...and maybe try to slam them with a suplex move.
Advancedawehr
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 11:05 PM
"since you said "the vast majority" of file sharers..if we take the usual estimate of 60 million people in the US as file sharers, or participating in the file sharing activity (using P2P), that means you must be referring to a study that has taken a sample far in excess of 30 million people ("the vast majority")..."

i refer you to the sampling distribution of the sample mean and confidence intervals/hypothesis testing..

technically you can gain a decent confidence interval on a population that size with a few thousand, more or less.
DMemberrocknrollwoman
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 11:29 PM
So, when's your birthday, Code, uh..Mr. President?

I don't think mroop is female. Just antagonistic, with a huge chip on his shoulder.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 11:52 PM
CLASSIFICATION OF ERRORS
Since the sample is only part of the whole, extrapolation inevitablyleads to errors. These are of two kinds: sampling error (“random error”)and non-sampling error (“systematic error”). The latter is often called“bias,” without connoting any prejudice. Sampling error results from theluck of the draw when choosing a sample: we get a few too many units ofone kind, and not enough of another. The likely impact of sampling erroris usually quantified using the “SE,” or standard error. With probabilitysamples, the SE can be estimated using (i) the sample design and (ii) thesample data.As the “sample size” (the number of units in the sample) increases,the SE goes down, albeit rather slowly. If the population is relatively ho-mogeneous, the SE will be small: the degree of heterogeneity can usuallybe estimated from sample data, using the standard deviation or some anal-ogous statistic. Cluster samples—especially with large clusters—tend tohave large SEs, although such designs are often cost-effective.Non-sampling error is often the more serious problem in practicalwork, but it is harder to quantify and receives less attention than samplingerror. Non-sampling error cannot be controlled by making the samplebigger. Indeed, bigger samples are harder to manage. Increasing thesize of the sample—which is beneficial from the perspective of samplingerror—may be counter-productive from the perspective of non-sampling.
---------------SNIP---------------------------\
Those who are willing to put such faith in extrapolation of a small sampling size to a population of perhaps 60 million...from an UNKNOWN sampling size are certainly ignoring several issues...the framing of the questions for example, how were those who were included in the sample selected...you just can't say...for example, awher said that you can gain a decnet confidence interval on a population size of a few thousand or less, and expect such open ended statements to hold water.

For those who haven't taken statistics in a while, here's more on confidence intervals.

"Confidence Interval
A confidence interval gives an estimated range of values which is likely to include an unknown population parameter, the estimated range being calculated from a given set of sample data.

*********************

If independent samples are taken repeatedly from the same population, and a confidence interval calculated for each sample, then a certain percentage ( confidence level) of the intervals will include the unknown population parameter . Confidence intervals are usually calculated so that this percentage is 95%, but we can produce 90%, 99%, 99.9%, confidence intervals for the unknown parameter.

The width of the confidence interval gives us some idea about how uncertain we are about the unknown parameter (see precision). A very wide interval may indicate that more data should be collected before anything very definite can be said about the parameter.

Confidence intervals are more informative than the simple results of hypothesis tests (where we decide 'reject H0' or 'don't reject H0') since they provide a range of plausible values for the unknown parameter.

See also confidence limits.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Confidence Limits

Confidence limits are the lower and upper boundaries / values of a confidence interval, that is, the values which define the range of a confidence interval.

*********************

The upper and lower bounds of a 95% confidence interval are the 95% confidence limits. These limits may be taken for other confidence levels, for example, 90%, 99%, 99.9%






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Confidence Level

The confidence level is the probability value associated with a confidence interval.

It is often expressed as a percentage. For example, say , then confidence level = (1-0.05) = 0.95, that is, a 95% confidence level.

*********************

Example

Suppose an opinion poll predicted that, if the election were held today, the Conservative party would win 60% of the vote. The pollster might attach a 95% confidence level to the interval 60% plus or minus 3%. That is, he thinks it very likely that the Conservative party would get between 57% and 63% of the total vote.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Confidence Interval for a Mean

A confidence interval for a mean specifies a range of values within which the unknown population parameter, in this case the mean , may lie. These intervals may be calculated by, for example, a producer who wishes to estimate his mean daily output; a medical researcher who wishes to estimate the mean response by patients to a new drug; etc.

*********************

The (two sided) confidence interval for a mean contains all the values of 0 (the true population mean) which would not be rejected in the two sided hypothesis test of:


H0 : against H1 :
The width of the confidence interval gives us some idea about how uncertain we are about the unknown population parameter, in this cas the mean. A very wide interval may indicate that more data should be collected before anything very definite can be said about the parameter.

We calculate these intervals for different confidence levels, depending on how precise we want to be. We interpret an interval calculated at a 95% level as, we are 95% confident that the interval contains the true population mean. We could also say that 95% of all confidence intervals formed in this manner (from different samples of the population) will include the true population mean.

Compare one sample t-test.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Confidence Interval for the Difference Between Two Means

A confidence interval for the difference between two means specifies a range of values within which the difference between the means of the two populations may lie. These intervals may be calculated by, for example, a producer who wishes to estimate the difference in mean daily output from two machines; a medical researcher who wishes to estimate the difference in mean response by patients who are receiving two different drugs; etc.

*********************

The confidence interval for the difference between two means contains all the values of:



(the difference between the two population means) which would not be rejected in the two sided hypothesis test of:

H0: against H1: i.e.

H0: against H1: .

If the confidence interval includes 0 we can say that there is no significant difference between the means of the two populations, at a given level of confidence.

The width of the confidence interval gives us some idea about how uncertain we are about the difference in the means. A very wide interval may indicate that more data should be collected before anything definite can be said.

We calculate these intervals for different confidence levels, depending on how precise we want to be. We interpret an interval calculated at a 95% level as, we are 95% confident that the interval contains the true difference between the two population means. We could also say that 95% of all confidence intervals formed in this manner (from different samples of the population) will include the true difference)."

Now, usually, when one uses things like confidence intervals and confidence levels, one is engaging in the determination of whether or not an hypothesis is more probable to be true or not. The standard way of talking about the case in which the hypothesis is not true, is the "null hypothesis". Now, we must decide how one is to contstruct the basic, testable hypothesis.

I bring this up because an opinion survey, for example, is quite different from testing whether a certain educational method leads to higher scores in the students being taught in that fashion.

"A few thousand" children, ages 5-9 , living in New York,may give QUITE different answers than "a few thousand" retired persons living in Florida. So, to extrapolate from a few thousand people, without defining things like method of selection of the sample, geographic region, age, educational levels, etc., to making broad generalizations about "file sharers" nationwide, I believe , introduces very serious study errors into the mix.

For example, if one were to , in Civil War times, do a survey about the properness of the South seceding from the Union, in say, New York, in the four corners area (featured in the movie Gangs of New York) and include a "few thousand" people, you really could not extrapolate those answers to the answers you would get from Houston Texas.

So, back to the topic. Is there a "variable" that we can use?

Asking what people are "aware" of, is not the same an experiment to see if vancomycin will destroy MRSA.

Usually, confidence intervals and levels of confidence, like .05, look at how the effects of changing the variable have, and whether or not one can say the result is "statistically significant at the .05 level of confidence"...but, we do not have an experimental variable I can define. One could change the wording of the question like this.

"Do you know that lawyers for the RIAA have filed lawsuits alleging copyright infringement under the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act, Title 17) against persons using Peer to Peer file trading software?"

But, that is not the way the earlier question posited by our illustrious mroop was worded.

His / her wording was ambigous, and of course, people involved in the construction of survey questions will report that ambiguity in questions opens up the door to achieving poor results.

For example, if I were taking the survey and answering truthfully, and asked whether I was "aware" (I don't like that word) that people were being sued for downloading music...I would have to say NO...because people are not being sued for downloading music, they are being sued for copyright infringement (alleged) under the provisions of the DMCA.

Now, the next man or woman might see the SAME poorly constructed survey question, and say YES...because they ASSUME you mean that people are being sued for allegedly downloading copyright songs without permission of the copyright holder.

Thus...if two honest people can read the same question and answer it diametrically oppositely, I submit and suggest that such a survey question is inherently flawed, and that because of this inherent flaw, any extrapolation to a larger population will be similarly in error.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 11:56 PM
:) (Smile) rocknrollwoman...thanks for asking...
the old CodeWarrior was born on Thursday, 13 November 1952...same year the RIAA was born :) (Smile)
I'm thus a Scorp and in the Chinese astrological calendar, a Shwei Lung, or Water Dragon
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 24, 2004 @ 11:59 PM
that astrological combination makes me cantakerous :) (Smile)..
oh, btw...for anyone having problems with any collection agencies...I did a special section today at
http://codewarriorz.blogspot.com and posted the Fair Credit Reporting Act, the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act, and posted a sample Validation demand letter....

valuable resources for anyone being pestered by those collecton people...
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:03 AM
Back to extrapolation...
for example, a survey done on religion preferences, carried out in North East Texas, say Dallas or Tyler, would yield quite different results from one done in Austin.

In Austin, there is a strong atheist community, witches, and a lot of people who are against organized religion...Tyler on the other hand, is very conservative, and one would note a great difference in the number of people who would consider themselves Pagan or Wiccan.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:07 AM
sorry for all typos...ambiguous is spelled wrong...

Loooooong and irritating days makes my fingers stagger along the keyboard, occasionally falling on the wrong keys, or missing keys completely....

i feel like flibberty gibbet!

btw...is anyone else a fan of e e cummings, the poet?
DMembertoolandiemkr
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:10 AM
Hi everyone, I've been following this site for months now and have been content to simply listen in. However, a statement made earlier has me wondering. Who would put much faith in a lawyer who works out of his home and watches tv all day??? No writs to write or titles to search? :) (Smile)
DMemberHammerofJustice
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:10 AM
Here is where they filed them:
Alabama, Arizona, California, Colorado, Georgia, Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, New Jersey, New York, Minnesota, Missouri, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, and Texas.

If they were to sue people evenly within 17 states they would get a whopping 29 people in each state whoohoo.

In all seriousness have to say though, I question their pew study, if it is true that file sharing is down due to these law suits, then why continue to sue on a monthly basis? Why not let the legal sites take their course atleast for a bit? Seems to me that what may have been viewed as an effective strategy, can have a serious back fire on them by continuing to bring these law suits. I never thought 24 people would have fight these crooks, still 24 people which are willing to fight these assholes. One thing that comes to mind, when the first wave of law John Doe suits swarmed, in January 2004, I noticed that Scimeca was on the law suit, Scimeca had already stated that she wanted to fight this in court, it took them nearly 6 months, to file a lawsuit with 24 names on it, the people that do not want to settle, in some ways it says to me that the RIAA does not want to deal with this in court, and was prob doing everything it could to avoid this. The RIAA is a legal body, so I can understand, well perhaps not understand, but I can sort of get a feel as to why they would sue in such rampant fashion, they dont have to deal with the cash portion of the organization, so why should they care if the big five end up loosing money over this. However, when you get to the BOTTOM LINE of it, this all has to do with revenue and stock value, and I dont see either of those rising much while they continue to sue people. On a side note, I have to say, I enjoy a good argument from MROOP, s/he whatever that particular individual is makes you think of other options other little gaps that one may leave open in ones argument. I think in many ways said individual does most of us a favor, since most of the stuff this individual writes, does make you think of certain issues that perhaps one has left exposed in one's argument.
DMemberSatan1002
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:15 AM
"(364/365)*(363/365) = 0.991796 or 99.2% chance that two people will not share the same birthday."

That'll stop that nasty riaa.
Advancedmroop
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:27 AM
"However, a statement made earlier has me wondering. Who would put much faith in a lawyer who works out of his home and watches tv all day??? No writs to write or titles to search? :) (Smile)"

First, I have never asked or expected anyone to put their faith in me. Second, I think someone who can sit home and watch TV all day and still make a living is probably pretty smart. Of course, that is just my humble opinion. : )
Advancedmroop
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:31 AM
"That could explain why moopie doesn't flirt back ;) (Wink)"

To quote Jimmy Carter:

"I've committed adultery in my heart many times. This is something that God recognizes I will do--and I have done it--and God forgives me for it."

: )
Advancedawehr
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:32 AM
pew studies are done with focus groups. focus groups are often hand selected with a bias, i have yet to hear of any actual disclosure and review of their methods.

I consider pew to be, basically, the most convincing way yet to lie.

"there are lies, damned lies, and statistics" (mark twain)
Advancedawehr
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:34 AM
the problem is this campaign was engineered with economics in mind, and the strategy was to launch the campaign right before the economy pulled out of its nose dive.

I would have to say, if i were a propaghanda minister for hitler, i could think of no better way than to use the natural business cycle to support my lie.
Advancedawehr
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:36 AM
with this in mind.. they may very well be given a blind eye from congress as long as their sales are rising.

Considering the depths to which our economy has plummeted, that could mean the better part of a decade before the next recession hits and congress says "hey, wait a minute!"
Advancedmroop
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:38 AM
"there are lies, damned lies, and statistics" (mark twain)"

It was actually Benjamin Disraeli who said that.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/twain.htm
Other apocryphal Twainisms include:

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics." (When Twain mentioned this pithy saying in his autobiography, he credited it to Benjamin Disraeli.)
DMembertoolandiemkr
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:38 AM
" I think someone who can sit home and watch TV all day and still make a living is probably pretty smart. "

True. I've known people who make a living out of unemployment.
DMemberTechnoPuppet
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:41 AM

Could someone set me straight here!

Has ANYONE been pursued by the RIAA for DOWNLOADING a song yet?
I know technically it's illegal to do so but it's also known that they were going after the servers only.

If this is still the case then why does every news story still mention downloaders/downloading as the alleged infraction?

Makes me wonder how accurate journalism is.. considering it's not a complicated concept to grasp.
Advancedmroop
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 12:42 AM
"I've known people who make a living out of unemployment."

I did that for a year when I was starting my business. I ate a lot of half price food from Shoprite.
Advancedawehr
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 1:43 AM
"I know technically it's illegal to do so but it's also known that they were going after the servers only."

I direct you to the AHRA, which says it is perfectly legal to record and distribute digitial media for noncommercial purposes, and specifically bans actions such as these against consumers.

why nobody has shot them down with this clause is beyond me, oh wait.. have any of these gone to court yet?! NO!



Advancedawehr
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 1:47 AM
"Makes me wonder how accurate journalism is.. considering it's not a complicated concept to grasp."

journalists make rediculous money for 2 hours a day of sitting in front of a camera and pontificating about crap they know nothing about because they are too rich to understand the life of the average man.

As demonstrated by the false "air america didnt pay its bills" scandal, the vast majority of news organizations now take tips at face value from a handful of conservative spindoctors.
Alternativeronnie71
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 2:11 AM
technically its legal to download our music... kwiver.dmusic.com
IntermediateRemye
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 5:30 AM
I recently bought a used cd at a store, and the guy asked if I really liked the band. I told him yes, and that I'd downloaded a few songs, and then decided to buy the USED cd. This, in a store FULL of people. We got into a discussion about his stated opinion that downloading is NOT hurting record sales, and I gave him this website as a place to go to share his opinions.
Turns out, the whole store was listening, and I pretty much got mobbed in the parking lot by people with pens etc who wanted the address.
If Carey Sue and the rest would just pay attention to THE PEOPLE instead of the amount of money in their bank accounts, they'd see they are wrong wrong wrong. Downloading is not illegal, sharing in and of itself is not illegal, and the alphabet lobby must be aware of this. They have to be! If I can go into a low rent record shop in rural NH and get this kind of response (to be honest, there was some negative response, just not near as much as positive), then how much MORE must be happening in major cities and towns?
24 people! cool! I'll be watching this closely. It's true, it'll only take ONE.. ONE success, or even a tie in the courts, for the floodgates to be opened.
I for one can't wait.
ttmmm
DMemberMax-Stone
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 5:47 AM
"nearly" 3000 down, 59997000 to go. Do you think the RIAA can make it? I do not think they will.

"Those sued by name had declined offers to settle out of court, the RIAA said."

Woohoo!

If you think about it, they have only settled with like 400 out of the 3,000 people attacked by the RIAA. I find that to be a weak ratio for the RIAA. In other words, I think the RIAA is getting nowhere but in the hole even more than they already are, and fast.
DMemberMax-Stone
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 5:50 AM
-the comma after "are".
DMemberTechnoPuppet
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 6:15 AM

OK..i've known about the Home Recording act but never really did any research on it until awehr piqued?(sp) my interest.

Did the google thing with AHRA...didn't know there was an American Himalayan Rabbit Association..LOL, anyway...after reading a few sites i came across this here:

http://www.minidisc.org/ahra.html

No legal technobabble, just their version of what the RIAA has to say about the AHRA. This is short and to the point so check it out.

What i would like to know is if the DMCA supports the RIAA's position on this argument. I'm not prepared to read it at 6 in the morning.
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 8:11 AM
LOLOLOL
AdvancedLachatte
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 8:41 AM
You're right, Max. They have to be "in the hole".
400 settlements. ($ 1,200,000). It's been about a year now, hasn't it? Lots of paperwork has been filed and lots of attorney's fees have been paid.

The "I fought the law and the law won" RIAA/Pepsi campaign... I saw that commercial only ONCE after the Super Bowl premier. I wonder how much that entire advertising campaign cost them...

The posted article is from Forbes.com - business news. They should have a separate BAD business practices section for the RIAA.

My daughter's friends (teenagers) told me on Saturday that they continue to download music.
DMemberflibbertygibbet
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 8:44 AM
the nhra always was bigger than the ahra 10/4 flbgbt !!!! code what dat mean in dat post way back ??? ya feelin onery or what ????? antoine the antagonist is what they used to call me, so ya'all lighten up and get some rest !!!!















AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 10:02 AM
flibberty....lol...even I didn;t know what I meant...sometimes things come into my little brain and knock so hard to get out, I let 'em, but never know the rhyme or reason...
:) (Smile)
Advancedmroop
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 11:19 AM
"I direct you to the AHRA, which says it is perfectly legal to record and distribute digitial media for noncommercial purposes, and specifically bans actions such as these against consumers."

Because AHRA specifically refers to distribution of BLANK media. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Yeesh.

DMemberLetLightShine
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 7:28 PM

Lachatte (on another forum that no one's looking at) wrote the following:
There was some discussion . . . about surveys and statistics. In the article "Copyright? We don't give a monkey's . . .", I found this quote:
"According to a US Harris Interactive survey of 2,306 adults, three out of four agreed with the statement: 'Downloading and then selling the music is piracy and should be prohibited. Downloading for personal use is an innocent act and should not be prohibited.'"

"Some 70 per cent of respondents indicated that, if the price of CDs was a lot lower, there would be far less downloading of music from the internet."

Cary "Squirmin'" Sherman and company are failing to make their case.

LetLightShine responds:
Lachatte, good point! Thanks for that post!

Also, regarding a previous post about "Lies, damn lies, and statistics" -- I've heard another saying that goes like this:
"Statistics don't lie, but statisticians do!"

Incidentally, I have a topic for a forum (Attn: Code and/or Leflaw or somebody): My idea concerns a parallel that could be drawn about the approach/tactics that both Rumsford and the RIAA use. Rumsfeld seems most concerned about quashing the technological conduit which made the prison scandal public -- digital phone cameras -- so, he wants to outlaw them. The RIAA likewise is most concerned about quashing the technological genie of downloading digital music. In both cases, it shouldn't be the progress of technology which is the culprit but failures in the areas of military models in the former and business models of the latter. Don't you think this is a good point?
DMemberDeliriou5
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 7:48 PM
"Yeah, it's better than the media doesn't report this administration's blatant disregard for the Geneva Convention rules. "

Just for the record, the Geneva Convention Rules do not apply to this situation since terrorists and insurgents are not protected by it.
DMemberLetLightShine
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 8:51 PM

Er, does that include those who are detained as under SUSPICION of terrorism or insurgency?
(P. S. Under what official category were the detainees being held at that Iraqi prison? "mroop" can probably help with that, even if no one else is sure.)
"Just for the record", I'm concerned about the suspension or abolition of basic human rights for those accused but not convicted of being terrorists. We need to be cautious when it comes to painting with a broad brush to extend exceptions to the Geneva Convention.
Civil liberties once eroded are seldom regained. And, one day, you and I may bless their existence for ourselves.
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 25, 2004 @ 9:16 PM
Even Rumsfeld said that the Geneva Convention applied to the detainees at Abu Graib.
Stop spreading your ignorance.
Otherindependentm...
Date: May 26, 2004 @ 8:51 AM
Fair and humane treatment of anyone detained by our (or anybody's) government military (or police) for any reason should apply always.

We need an upgrade to the Geneva Convention that states that.

Shmoo, of Electric Gypsy
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