MTV has announced plans to launch its own line of condoms with German company Condomi, London's Financial Times reports. Bill Roedy, president of MTV Networks International, says the condoms will be available in stores frequented by young people, including Virgin Megastores and MAC Cosmetics, so that sexually active teens and young adults will be able to easily purchase them. "The idea is to try and take the embarrassment out of the purchase," he says of making the condoms available in youth-oriented retail outlets. The network hopes the condoms will especially appeal to young women who may be too embarrassed to buy condoms at a drugstore or to ask their physician for them.

story here

http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp?id=12496&sd=05/20/04

eMTv already makes me limp... why would I need a condom?

"Virgin" Megastores will sell the condoms?

I hope no one here will say anything negative about this. The last thing young teens (or even preteens, yes it is happening alot more in grade school) are going to want to talk to their parents about having sex or telling their doctor as most likely the parents will find out. And atleast i think if your like 12-14 asking to goto CVS with like no reason, or going there and trying to dissappear isn't gonna work that well.

well call me old fashioned but I think we need to educate our kids on how not to have sex rather than how to have sex safely. the entertainment industry promotes sex to kids all the time. drives a parent nuts sometimes

Well, at least MTV is addressing the situation. Now, I'm somewhat old fashioned in other areas but not in this area. If kids are going to have sex, at least they should have it safely. I'm tired of all this abstinence BS they teach you in schools. It's the very reason kids are going out to do it, because they're told not to.

When I have kids if they time comes that they decide they want to have sex, I'll tell them everything they need to know. I won't tell them lies like most parents do. I'll tell them to be safe and, if need be, buy the protection for them.

Let's face it, folks, with or without sexually explicit lyrics, teens are going to want to have sex. None of us here can say that when we were 13 or 14 and going through all those changes that we didn't want to have sex.

It's natural. We're human beings. But instead of demonizing something for four or five years we should help in the education of our children in this area. Then maybe they won't believe what is said in the songs on the subject and maybe they won't go to friends or turn to sexual predators. Until then, this will continue to happen.

Sex education should be promoting heavy petting.
What do the kids these days call it?

We started talking about sex to our kids when Magic Johnson did a special on Nickelodeon about being HIV positive. Years later, when my daughter was in middle school, she had a health class which discussed STD's. She had to choose from a list of diseases and do a report for the class. She and a male "partner" in the class chose gonorrhea. He wanted to do vaginitis.
It was graphic. They covered everything. She still talks about that class and how the entire class reacted. Did it stop all of the kids from having sex? No. Are there pregnant girls in her high school? Yes. But it educated some of the kids. My daughter's friends talk about boyfriends and oral sex. And they think about those photos.

"well call me old fashioned but I think we need to educate our kids on how not to have sex rather than how to have sex safely."

That's like saying "I think we need to teach are kids not to eat". Teenagers have been having sex since the beginning of time, even durring more conservative periods, it just wasn't talked about. It's the same way with drugs. Educate children about the dangers of drugs, don't just tell them NO. They'll rebel. You don't tell a teenager what to do and what not to do, you explain to them the possible effects and consequences, allow them to make their own decisions, and be there for them if they need you.

Either way...if MTV does for condoms what they've done for music, my magic stick will be sticking to trojan.

From Darkened03
"I hope no one here will say anything negative about this."
--------------------------------------------
A good step .. maybe ....

From an industry that is soooo brutally attacking sex and pornography ....
absolute HYPOCRISY.

your views will change when you have a teenage daughter.

guess that means since it's natural to have sex with someone you're attracted to we shouldn't condem those who commit adultry. after all their gonna do it anyway might as well teach them how to do it and not get caught. forget responsibility and self esteme some will have sex reguardless but we shouldn't promote it just because of that. If you want to give your daughter a condem and teach her how to have sex and make it a good experience that's your right as a parent. don't tell me I'm wrong cause I exercize my right as a parent to discourage it. we're talking more than pregnancy or VD here. sex creates a strong emotional attachment and bond with another individual that many kids that age are not ready for and could be damaging to themselves. I have personal experience as a parent on this issue so don't tell me it's ok to give my daughter condoms

Oh and by the way, I've NEVER lied to my kids about it

compmore, a pillar of common sense in all the madness. As always. Besides, what kind of idiot doesn't know about condoms? If your kid is too stupid to know what they're for, then he/she is probably too stupid to listen to anybody that tells him/her otherwise. If your kids are "going to have sex anyway" then you're a shitty parent. But if MTV must raise our children, then don't complain when you see the result.


Anyway, can I get a neon, glow-in-the-dark condom with a picture of snoop dog on it, with the reservoir tip as his nose?

I agree with what you're saying, comp.
Kids are bombarded with sex. It's our job to be honest, give them the entire picture and do a LOT of listening.

My mom made it clear...
If you have sex, you move out.
If you smoke, you move out.
If you drink, you move out.

If you do anything that is only for adults, you thereby declare yourself an adult who doesn't need me anymore and MOVE OUT.

darn you sherm now I've got this mental image of a darkened room burrr, now I'll have to become a monk

BTW thanks for the compliments too but I have my heated moments as well. Sometimes common sense flys out the window.
Lachatte is right about the honesty and listening part. that's not easy when you want to yell "no!" and lock them in their room until their twenty. I laid it on the line for my daughter and her boyfriend and told them they needed to respect our wishes. He didn't want to, she did. I'm very proud of her for that.

Unfortunately MTV and school promote the two extremes

School - No sex until youre 40
MTV - Getting laid will make you popular, so lose your virginity while youre young.

I can see 12 year old kids going to stores to buy MTV condoms. "I dont feel bad about it because britney did it!".

"your views will change when you have a teenage daughter."
Teenage daughter or no teenage daughter, that doesn't change the way teenage psychology works. I would be truthful and teach them about the hazards, but I'm not going to lie and I'm not going to be overbearing, that way when my teenage daughter recognizes reality, they will still trust me and still make responsible decisions.

"guess that means since it's natural to have sex with someone you're attracted to we shouldn't condem those who commit adultry."
I am not going to condem anyone's decisions involving their personal life. Perhaps that's why adultery isn't illegal? But then again, that's the same mentality that illegalized gay marriage.

"forget responsibility and self esteme some will have sex reguardless but we shouldn't promote it just because of that"
Since when is speaking the truth PROMOTING sex? You give your children the truth, allow them to make their own decisions, and be there for them if they screw up. If they catch a disease or get pregnant...you're certainly not going to be the person they turn to for help. What else can you do? Be some dictatorial person they grow to resent?

"sex creates a strong emotional attachment and bond with another individual that many kids that age are not ready for and could be damaging to themselves."
So does any teenage 'puppy love' situation. 2000 years ago when the average life expectancy was 40's, teenagers were married, led empires, ect. What has changed? Public opinion and treatment of teenagers and their role in society.

Perhaps you've forgotten what it's like to be a teenager and have put yourself into total denial, but the vast majority of teenagers will have sex. They'll have sex regardless of if you're a good parent or a bad parent, however, you might be content with the 'what i don't know doesn't hurt me' mentality.

I never said you lied and I never told you how to raise your children...I expressed my opinion on the subject. Perhaps it's the same parental insecurity that your mind used to misconstrew my post that also tells you that if your daughter knows about condoms, she might become a slut. A parents job is to educate their children and to help them transition from children into adults, not to rule them.

negative you must be a teenager or pretty close to it. there's one important factor you're ignoring about being a parent. the adults on this site were teens during the 60's and 70's during the free love anything goes movement. we're not a bunch of old prudes nor have we forgotten what it's like to be a teen. but the difference is we've been teens and are now parents. we know both sides and both worlds.

belive me teenage puppy love and sex develop two totally differnt type of bonds. I won't go into detail of the situation my daughter was in but I will say it's a very tough balancing act. her boyfriend was very controling and she was heading down the wrong road. You have to lay the law down at times. we guide our kids, talk and listen, yes but a good parent will set boundries and guidelines as well. I hope you're not one of those teens who doesn't understand the need for boundries. I am proud of all four of my kids, (two are still teens) so I'm dealing with teenage psychocology all the time. giving them advice and guidence and then letting them do their own thing MUST be balanced with boundries and dicipline. sorry if you don't like that idea but that's life and it applies in everything you will do in life. I do understand teens and treat them like adults. but when they screw up, I tell them how I feel and I don't sugar coat it.

By the way I've developed a relationship with my kids that they feel free without fear to criticize me and tell me when they think I screw up too. and they do.

God I can't believe I'm sounding like my father......

Well obviously I don't want my future kids to end up getting pregnant, or worse, getting some disease which is why I believe in promoting safe sex. Compmore, I have three neices. They all started having sex at the age of 12 and the youngest one is only 13. One already has a child (she was 17), one has already had a disease and the youngest one is having sex with men twice her age. None of them use a condom because no one bothered to teach them about safe sex. It's a wonder my youngest neice isn't already pregnant but she's already committed to never using a condom, because it just feels better, she says, so she'll end up pregnant or disease ridden before she's 18. Now that concerns me greatly, but I can't talk to my neices because they've been told everything I say is a lie. Of course they could get condoms from their mom if need be, but their mom never sat them down and told them about this stuff and thus they went out and learned it on their own.

When I have kids and they reach teenage years and start going through all those changes I'll tell them what they need to know. I'll also teach them about making choices and the consequences of those choices. I won't tell them they can't have sex, but I'll tell them that having sex carries great responsibilities and consequences, physically and emotionally.

Yes, abstinence is a good thing but it shouldn't be the only thing taught to our children.

wow 12 and already having sex. sounds like more than just condoms is needed here. it's great you care enough about them to try and help. I pray their situation improves

BTW the guy who's twice the age of the 12 year old would go to jail in a second if someone had the courage to report it

that isn't teenager's sexual curiosity. that's a crime pure and simple

Here's what pisses me off about this - MTV is part of the "Entertainment Industry" which markets sex directly to kids. Then how do they benefit from it? Sell them condoms.

Kinda like McDonalds selling memberships to Jenny Craig.

You sell stuff to create a problem, then sell the stuff to solve the problem. Its never about moderation nor restraint (that ain't good business!). We consumers are all such chanttle to them.
As long as we buy, buy, buy, they don't care.

And some of the people here even buy into the BS of MTV "helping to solve a social problem".

Perhaps the problem would not exist (surely to the extent it does) without their product, no?

From this one event I could write an essay, but I dont have time. Its true that people are having sex at a much younger age than in the past. I would agree that this is largely due to media influence. Sex used to be associated with love, or at least some form of emotional attachment. TV portrayal trivialises it. That said, it is true that the younger end isn't going to buy condoms without embarrassment, and this might help there. *If* they use them. As one of the many many teenagers, I can say that for someone with the teen sex drive condoms are the last thing they will be thinking of.

First off, I am not a teenager, so do not jump the gun. Secondly your point of view is the point of view of most parents...do you think society is better because of it?

Here's a few excerpts from a paper written by a friend who has studied teenage sexuality and society (the paper is just under a dozen pages, so i'll just paste in a few paragraphs):

One of the biggest problems of adolescence is sexual suppression by parents and society in general. The teenage years are the time when sexual energy is at its height. Why, then, the absurd demand that teenagers "wait until marriage," or at least until leaving home, before becoming sexually active? Why are there laws on the books in "advanced" countries like the United States that allow a 19-year-old "boy" who makes love with his 17-year-old girlfriend, with her full consent, to be arrested by the girl's parents for "statutory rape?"

...

Sex is the most intense form of pleasure (one of the most prominent contributors for intimacy and bonding people) and involves the bioenergy of the body and emotions, repression of sexuality is the most powerful means of psychologically crippling people and giving them a submissive/authoritarian character structure (as well as alienating people from each other). As Reich observes, such a character is composed of a mixture of "sexual impotence, helplessness, a need for attachments, a nostalgia for a leader, fear of authority, timidity, and mysticism." As he also points out, "people structured in this manner are incapable of democracy. All attempts to build up or maintain genuine democratically directed organisations come to grief when they encounter these character structures. They form the psychological soil of the masses in which dictatorial strivings and bureaucratic tendencies of democratically elected leaders can develop. . . . [Sexual suppression] produces the authority-fearing, life-fearing vassal, and thus constantly creates new possibilities whereby a handful of men in power can rule the masses." [The Sexual Revolution: Toward a Self-Regulating Character Structure, p. 82]

...

Sexual freedom is the most basic and powerful kind, and every conservative or reactionary instinctively shudders at the thought of the "social chaos" it would unleash -- that is, the rebellious, authority-defying type of character it would nourish. This is why "family values," and "religion" (i.e. discipline and compulsive sexual morality) are the mainstays of the conservative/reactionary agenda. Thus it is crucially important for people to address every aspect of sexual suppression in society. And this means affirming the right of adolescents to an unrestricted sex life.

There are numerous arguments for teenage sexual liberation. For example, many teen suicides could be prevented by removing the restrictions on adolescent sexuality. This becomes clear from ethnological studies of sexually unrepressive "primitive" peoples. Thus:

"All reports, whether by missionaries or scholars, with or without the proper indignation about the 'moral depravity' of 'savages,' state that the puberty rites of adolescents lead them immediately into a sexual life; that some of these primitive societies lay great emphasis on sexual pleasure; that the puberty rite is an important social event; that some primitive peoples not only do not hinder the sexual life of adolescents but encourage it in every way, as, for instance, by arranging for community houses in which the adolescents settle at the start of puberty in order to be able to enjoy sexual intercourse. Even in those primitive societies in which the institution of strict monogamous marriage exists, adolescents are given complete freedom to enjoy sexual intercourse from the beginning of puberty to marriage. None of these reports contains any indication of sexual misery or suicide by adolescents suffering from unrequited love (although the latter does of course occur). The contradiction between sexual maturity and the absence of genital sexual gratification is non-existent." [Ibid., p. 85]

...

Applying these insights to our own society, it is clear that teenagers should not only have ample access to a private room where they can be undisturbed with their sexual partners, but that parents should actively encourage such behaviour for the sake of their child's health and happiness (while, of course, encouraging the knowledge and use of contraceptives and safe sex in general as well as respect for the other person involved in the relationship). This last point (of respecting others) is essential. As Maurice Brinton points out, attempts at sexual liberation will encounter two kinds of responses from established society - direct opposition and attempts at recuperation. The second response takes the form of "first alienating and reifying sexuality, and then of frenetically exploiting this empty shell for commercial ends. As modern youth breaks out of the dual stranglehold of the authoritarian patriarchal family it encounters a projected image of free sexuality which is in fact a manipulatory distortion of it." This can be seen from the use of sex in advertising to the successful development of sex into a major consumer industry.

However, such a development is the opposite of the healthy sexuality desired. This is because "sex is presented as something to be consumed. But the sexual instinct differs from certain other instincts... [as it can be satisfied only by] another human being, capable of thinking, acting, suffering. The alienation of sexuality under the conditions of modern capitalism is very much part of the general alienating process, in which people are converted into objects (in this case, objects of sexual consumption) and relationships are drained of human content. Undiscriminating, compulsive sexual activity, is not sexual freedom - although it may sometimes be a preparation for it (which repressive morality can never be). The illusion that alienated sex is sexual freedom constitutes yet another obstacle. Sexual freedom implies a realisation and understanding of the autonomy of others." [The Irrational in Politics, p. 60, p. 61]

...

Therefore, teenage sexual liberation is a means of developing free individuals as well as reducing the evil effects of sexual repression (which, we must note, also helps dehumanise individuals by encouraging the objectification of others, and in a patriarchal society, particularly of women).

Compmoreee says
"By the way I've developed a relationship with my kids that they feel free without fear to criticize me and tell me when they think I screw up too. and they do."

I have two 13 yr old daughters ( yes, twins, identical ).
I have worked hard to have those same open lines of communication, and they DO come to me with everything from pimples to periods.
So far, no sex.

Negatyve,
Very interesting piece of BS there.
I have seen many such papers written by both so called "experts" and , coincidentally, paedophiles, who wish to justify having consentual sex with 13 and 14 yr olds ( a crime ).
The "experts" also have removed spankings from parents, and corporal punishment from schools ( I have experienced both, personally ). It is easy to see the difference in how teens act nowadays.
Lots of people all too willing to tell others how their lifes should go, and enforce it if those don't agree.
Take that paper of your friends and wipe your behind with it. Legal adulthood is 18 for a reason.

"Applying these insights to our own society, it is clear that teenagers should not only have ample access to a private room where they can be undisturbed with their sexual partners, but that parents should actively encourage such behaviour for the sake of their child's health and happiness"

sorry that's 100% wrong. teens get more screwed up from counselors and therapists then they do from parents in general. that's where a balanced approach comes in with parenting. I will never encourage my 15 year old daughter to have sex with her 18year old boyfriend. Society is what's screwing teens up, not parents who only want what's best for them.

that's not repression. and most kids that age are not capable (mainly because of societys influence) to handle the emotion of that type of loving relationship.
ALL parents make mistakes no matter how well intended but not near as many as their kids do. you may not be a teen but you certinly don't understnad parenting from the heart, only from a text book.

well dreddsnik sex is a little different. she talks more to her mom about it then me (but she will talk with me) that's normal for a young woman to want to relate to her mother than father, however she is talking and that's important

I find it appropriate that MTV is going to be selling condoms, after all, they've employed a bunch of dicks for years.

LOLOLOLOLOL

First of all, the paper is written for a sociology doctatorate. Secondly, the paper and the writer (who is a woman who I'm involved with) does not promote sex between adults and children, nor do I, so I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from drawing an affinity between it and pedophiliac propaghanda.

No where does it suggest sexuality between adults and children. Sexual relationships between adults and children are exploitive and extremely damaging to child development and a childs future psychological and emotional well-being. The paper is based on teenagers expressing sexuality among people their age (which is pretty commonsensical as most people who are sexualy active remain within their peer group).

Do you think the problem with modern society is from a lack of physical disapline? In many society's throughout history physical disapline of children was considered extremely barbaric. If you want to start pointing fingers at "the difference in how teens act nowadays", I strongly suggest you start aiming towards corporate america who have built, through media and advertising, a society where impulse and selfish disconcern (the ingrediants you'll find in a rampant consumer), is more important than education, discression, compassion...basically anything that might involve a rational thought process.

You're talking as if teenage sex, drug experimentation, and related personal choices that deviate traditional christian based morality is a completely new thing, while completely denying that it has been commonplace since the beginning of humanity.

Sexual activity as a teenager is normal, I don't understand what the attack on my opinion is. I was sexually active as a teenager, my parents were, my grandparents were, most of you probably were, most of your parents probably were, most of your grandparents probably were. I had healthy teenage relationships, most people do. So what's the taboo? Puberty happens as a teenager for a reason.

So dredd, perhaps you can cease the bitter name calling and instead focus that energy on learning how to conjugate the verb "live".

negatyve I'm really having a good time with this. mainly cause this is the same thing I've heard since the early 70's (and 60's for those who were teens then)

"If you want to start pointing fingers at "the difference in how teens act nowadays", I strongly suggest you start aiming towards corporate america who have built, through media and advertising, a society where impulse and selfish disconcern (the ingrediants you'll find in a rampant consumer), is more important than education,..."

bingo!!!

there's an old saying, sometimes what a child needs (not teens) is a good pat on the back, low enough and hard enough.
By time they become teens physical disipline is totally unnecessary. I seldom spanked my kids but when I did they deserved it.
I think the big key is respect.
that comes from fairness. If a child respects you as a parent by time they become teens then you can give them guidance and they'll make good decisions reguardless how mad they get at you. but they also make bad decisions and that's when we need to be there with tough love. tough love hurts. letting them do whatever they want because it's a natural expression of their own sexual nature is irresponsible. Most adults have sexual natures and desires that haven't been explored either but most adults learn how to restrain those and channel it into a positve thing in different ways thank goodness. I need to teach my kids the same thing and you don't do that by giving them alone time so they can fool around. sorry but your friend is way off base with that.

I still love what SkippyQSB said. that's a classic

Thanks Comp.
You conjugate much better than I could.

I personally don't care if the person holds a "doctorate", is a woman, man, or moose. Lot's of overeducated underexperienced folk that think they know how everyone should live.
Fact is, paedo's use the same line of reasoning.
And yes, lack of DISCIPLINE is a large problem, whether you like to believe it or not, along WITH corporate manipulation.
I also don't recall mentioning "Christianity" anywhere in my post, or "deviating from Christianity".
Those were your thoughts, not mine.
Touched some sort of nerve in you, obviously.

don't get me wrong, I've made tons of mistakes with my kids. but because we love and respect each other we can forgive that and go on.

You conjugate much better than I could.

Gee and english was my worst subject in school

"that's not repression"

Not in the traditional sense, as a dictatorial sort of repression, but it is repression in that you supress your natrual desire and replace it with guilt, fear of consequences, fear of authoritrian reaction.

I am by no means saying that every kid should go out and slut it up. I am suggesting that teenage sex is normal, should be recognized as normal, and should be encouraged to develop normally as other human social interactions are. Infact, there's a video series that indirectly documents the results of teenage sexual repression, it's called Girls Gone Wild.

If you tell a child that he is not allowed to play with other children until he/she is 14 years old, it's certain that they will develop an anti-social perspective, it should be reasonable to conclude that telling a teenager that they can't have sex until they are married or an adult (as if age has any bearring on maturity at all) would have similiar consequences.

Of course I understand your point of view, that's a product from you being brought up the same way. Parenting from the heart should involve helping your children develop mentally, emotionally, and physically as best they can...not setting up boundaries that allow you to sleep better at night.

Dredd:

First of all, I said deviating from Christian morality, which is where the idea of sex as a terrible act stems from, not to refute anything you said. I'm simply pointing out the fact that teenage sexuality is normal, I could care less how you spend your life or how you raise your children. I'm sure your choices will have the appropriate consequences.

I'm just pointing out a social flaw. You can't rely on some ancient moral standard to guide your life if it contradicts your chemical biology. That's like saying people can't be gay, when homosexuality has been around for just as long and has also been a social taboo. It's ignorant. Do you tell your children not to be "faggots" too?

Of course discipline is (rarely) needed. But what do you expect when you have 3million images contridicting what you say filling their minds daily? A child develops an understanding of right and wrong very young and that, it's pretty much futile. Perhaps if you didn't subscribe to cable television, your children would develop much better without all the confussion implanted through marketing campaigns.

If you are concerned about your child's health, you should probably be more concerned with them eating fast food. God forbid their sexuality develops natrually as human biology designed, but hey they can eat food their body can't even digest properly.

To me it just seems common sense for people to develop natrually instead of along some sort of ancient moral code you've been force fed as a child. But that's just me.

I'm sure my parents told me the same thing your parents told you, and the same thing you tell your children. I base my opinion not on what society deems proper. Society is completely backwards and hypocritical. Just as you are for telling me how people should discipline their children while you complain about people telling you how to live. Hitler convinced an entire country that semites must be exterminated, for centuries this country held the belief that blacks were second hand citizens. What is deemed proper socially and what is proper are completely seperate. Try stepping back for a second, and rethinking things from a rational perspective.

and yea, you did touch a nerve when you riddled your response full of personal insults and took the conversation out of realm of debate and put it into playgroundesque immature mockery.

and the music piracy is ...
where in this conversation?

If MTV is going to be marketing condoms twards their target crowd, ok. As far as I'm concerned, Mtv does'nt advocate sex anymore today than they did back in the 80's when their target audience was college kids. Sex is a fact and part of teenage life. The only way you can protect your and other kids from life threatening diseases is to tell them the truth. If you have unprotected sex, you can get pregnant, an STD or Hiv and die. If you don't have sex, you don't have to worry about hurt feelings, jealousy, ect.
The Bush administration has been pushing Absitnence only teaching at schools, which is a proven failure (for example, in WWI soldjers were given abstinence only traning, we lost more men to STD's than to injury on the battlefield). Abstinence based sex ed, which gives a more analytical look at sex, gives you the effectiveness and failure rates of various birth control methods, signs of STD's, what to do in cases of Rape, and what not. I'd rather my child know this. It's no longer an issue of morality, it's life and death! The fastes growing group contracting HIV are 15-24 year olds. Time for america to wake up!

As someone who's just turned 20 and has been on his own without his parents for a good two years now, all I have to say is that I couldn't agree more with Compmore, Dredd, or EVEN Negatyve.

My parents always spoke with me, taught me right from wrong, explained to me the difference between reality and fantasy, the importance of listening, of loving, caring, and most importantly respect.

Just as Compmore and Dredd said, as a child, when I got out of line, a good whap to the behind or the thigh was the answer, followed by a lecture after they'd sat me down, wiped my tears, and calmed me down.

As a teenager, again, just as said, that was useless, and I could be talked to as an adult, in a sense that I could learn from my mistakes. If I screwed up badly, my parents were always there. Whether they had a tone of voice where they could shatter glass, or a comforting, "i'm here for you" voice, they'd talk to me like an adult, treated me like one, and from that, I earned their respect for myself, and I gained even more for them.

I look back and I THANK them for everything they've taught me.

Here comes the actual part of the subject: the sex was taught to me in school, and also by my parents. As early childhood, even, they taught me about the birds and the bees, and from there, they'd talk to me about it in a more respectful manner. They talked to me about always having respect with the girl I'd share my body with, loving her and caring for her.

Then they openly told me, that they did not mind if we had sex. But with that, they also gave me the responsibility of KNOWING to be safe: always wear a condom, never let my instincts take over my body, and always think before I act. They told me, if anything happens, anything, they would always be there for me, a phone call a way, a couple of houses away, it didn't matter. They would help, or try their damnedest.

And that's where I'll agree with Negatyve. I was never taught that sex was evil, or that sex shouldn't be had until I was out of the house, or non of that. I was taught responsibility, and was told of the certain consequences to what my certain actions might be. That's where Compmore's and Dredd's plan of action come into place.

I really believe, if we mix a little of both sides, kids would get a much better sense of freedom, AND they'd respect their parents and their beliefs a lot more, and it's all in the trust and the bonding.

My parents were Catholic, also, for those wondering, (surprise surprise). But they weren't really the ones to strictly and blindly follow what the good book would say. I consider myself an Atheist, for the mere fact that I just really can't believe that all that is said in that book is true. My point in this paragraph, is to point out to Negatyve, which I noticed it was something he jumped on, is that while religion DOES play a part in the ways of how a parent would raise their kids, don't ALWAYS assume that it always will.

From what I can tell, here we have two Christians beliefs, an Atheists beliefs, and his Catholic parents beliefs... all practically the same.

Anyway, fact of the matter is, both sides could probably be fused to make a better philosophy, IMO.

Now, in regards to MTV making condoms... that's plain ol' retarded. Market the problem, sell the solution. That's what they're doing.

negatyve

"but it is repression in that you supress your natrual desire and replace it with guilt, fear of consequences, fear of authoritrian reaction."

Teens are usually always feeling guilty of one thing or another, if not, they usually call them psychopaths! We need guilt, it's there for a purpose..to keep us on the straight and narrow.

So you think teens should be enjoying their natural sexual ambitions So much so that they should be briging their partners home on regular basis...even have a room set aside for the little darlings eh? Are you nuts! This sounds like it was written by a 16 year old boy!

When my daugher was 17 she couldn't make up her mind as to what to wear from day to day, let alone who she should be bringing home tonight to sleep with!

You two sound awfully young, and you both surely sound like people without kids. When you have kids, I know for a fact you will feel different.

With all the sexual diseases out there, Hep C, Aides, etc, etc, forget about pregnancy, you as a parent will not be worrying about your childs sexual pleasure being repressed, you'll be tearing your hair out, knowing your daughters having sex out there and there isn't a darn thing you can do to stop it!

The music industry is a disgrace to offer this "service" this is just another money making grab... helping the teens indeed.

One other thing. God created sex, not as to create some terrible guilt ridden act between couples. He created sex as a wonderful means for two loving partners, man and wife, to enjoy their love to the fullest extreme. It only becomes complicated when their is NO LOVE involved. Sex without love? Without commitment? It's void & empty. I don't know too many teens these days who are ready for committment, but they all think through sex they will find love, even though they are not ready for that kind of love..what they are really seeking is acceptance.

Handing out condoms, and they've been doing this for years now, through schools, etc, has no more solved the teen sex related problems, and neither will this help. I think it only enflames and confuses young people further.

"Parenting from the heart should involve helping your children develop mentally, emotionally, and physically as best they can..."

that is exactly what I try to do.

"...not setting up boundaries that allow you to sleep better at night....it is repression in that you supress your natrual desire and replace it with guilt, fear of consequences, fear of authoritrian reaction."

if that's what you think I'm doing then You really don't understand parenting one bit.

I'm just pointing out a social flaw."

no flaw at all. We all need supress our natural desires for the common good in a society.

Sorry but you don't understand where I'm coming from if you think it's an ancient moral standard out of date with the times. I used to think like you when I was younger. Life, responsibility, family and experience tempers our ideals of youth and makes us better people when we age if we learn from them.

You and your friend are wrong. the attitude of if it's a natural human desire we need to nurture it, without boundrys is leading to disaster. Human desires are only a positive experience once they are harnessed and controled by the individual. you said earlier that I have the same attitude as most parents. you ever wonder why the vast majority of parents from different social and economic backgrounds have the same attitude? it comes from having responsibility for children and drawing on your own life experiences. funny how we all come to the same conclusion

Recreational sex anyone?

what Pepe said

Kas95 is right. I'll get back to the Recording industry now.

Take that paper of your friends and wipe your behind with it. Legal adulthood is 18 for a reason.


WTF. I am a legal adult and have been for a while, i think that is the most ridiculus line i've heard here that didn't involve mroop. Stop age-ism it needs to die. Sexism, racism, blah blah blah balh those are done and delt with. Change age-ism, teenagers can easily choose to have sex, just cause they aren't legally adults doesn't mean they are completely oblivious to the world and every choice they make. And honestly i really do believe consentual sex should be legal between ANY PEOPLE. (altho this has exception as in true child molesters that prey on the innocense and incapability to consent to sex, imo consent for sex occurs in what public school has termed middle school. I went to a catholic school and people were having sex between 6th-8th grade some with other grade school students others with high school students, if they can do that obviously they are able to consent to sex with whoever they please whether or not you think its morally wrong or dirty or whatever other opinions you will make about one of both of them)

So what does the condoms have pictures of on them? Divas?

And what about old timers like Code? Does MTV offer Pop music Viagara for guys like him??

And negatyve i'd be interested in seeing that full paper if its online some where or will send it over email/aim/etc.

Kind of brings a whole new meaning to I want my MTV...

Teenagers always believe that nothing can happen to them and they will defy the odds.

So why don't you sit down with your child and their boy/girlfriend and explain to them calmly and rationaly that it is alright with you if they have sex as long as they wear a condom and if they ever "forget" you will find out and hunt them down and slit their throat to remove them from the gene poal so that their stupidity is kept from future generations.

pepe512000 - I would never harm an animal intentionaly and if I did so accidentaly I would feel guilty. But I have no guilt for anything i do to a person nor sympathy for what they have suffered at anothers hands. Too many weak people are now surviving due to advances in medicine and so our population continues to grow. The weak must be eliminated If that means that I must be eliminated then so be it but until that time i will continue to fight for what I believe in.

Wonder who their spokesperson will be in their ads? SNOOPDOGG?

omnipotent-one

"Too many weak people are now surviving due to advances in medicine and so our population continues to grow"

I don't know how old you are, but give it another 10-20 years, and you're going to be wondering where everyone has gone. ~pepe

What did you expect from the bunch of dickheads that run MTV?

Pun intended.

"Too many weak people are now surviving due to advances in medicine and so our population continues to grow. The weak must be eliminated"
Omnipotent-one, what a cold-hearted statement.
Negatyve, that is a bunch of academic bullshit!
MTV wants to tease, and then please?
goldenpi said it: "As one of the many many teenagers, I can say that for someone with the teen sex drive condoms are the last thing they will be thinking of."

Human beings can't go about fulfilling all their desires. If you read some old classics i.e. Brave New World, you see some of the negative consequences. There needs to be control and there needs to be understanding. In debating these issues some parties may have been polarized a bit too much, and to all of you I thus pose the following scenario. Two teenagers now approaching 18 are deeply in love and care about each other very much. If the female were to use birth control and both parties had never had sex with anyone else. Would it be "ok" for them to have sex.

I want my MVD.

Two teenagers now approaching 18 are deeply in love and care about each other very much. If the female were to use birth control and both parties had never had sex with anyone else. Would it be "ok" for them to have sex.

I'd have to vote a resounding NO. And seriously, they would have to accept the reality of the consequences. Most teens "in love" really aren't. Many are in love with the concept of love. i'm not saying it can't happen. I have a niece and nephew who fell in love in high school. Abstained from sex until marriage, four years later, and are still married now 20 years later. It really must depend on the people, but if they are in love, which is complicated in itself,(they wouldn't even know what they will be doing after school-going to college, different cities, etc) why make things worse? If these two truly love eachother, sex will wait. ~pepe~

This discussion is about teenagers having sex. And MTV wants to climb the higher ground and supply condoms to teenagers without parental knowledge.
MTV is catering to a young crowd whose hormones are raging. The videos and lyrics (especially hip-hop/rap) are sexually explicit. In order to protect their sons and daughters, parents have to give their kids truthful information about the consequences of unprotected sex.
This is not just a moral issue.
This is a crucial health issue.

Lachatte Agreed

I can't believe this. I go shopping and I get back and read statements like....

"And honestly i really do believe consentual sex should be legal between ANY PEOPLE."

does that mean if my daughter brings home a 15 year old friend and me (a 46 year old man) and her hit it off and she is willing then it's ok??? what about incest when both parties agree??? this is just plain sick.

omnipotent-one I really feel sorry for you for having such a terrible outlook on people. life is beautiful and people are great.

none of you who advocate that we, as parents, should let our children make up their own minds. know what it's like to be a parent. guiding a child is allowing them to be part of the decision making process in thier lives while using the respect and trust you've built with them to Steer and direct them along a path that is good for their well being.

If you throw a match into a gallon of gas it'll explode causing harm, damage, and even death. take that same gallon of gas and put it in a car and control the explosions within the engine then it can be put to good positive use. If you young people want to go and have sex by all means that's your decision and I won't critize you for it. but with my children, I'll guide them and direct them the way I see fit. when you have kids I wonder how you'll respond when some inexperienced know it all with a psychology textbook comes by and tells you that you're doing it all wrong.

Lachatee, Pepe - and our parents said we were the generation that needed help the most

negatyve -

"To me it just seems common sense for people to develop natrually instead of along some sort of ancient moral code you've been force fed as a child. But that's just me."

Ok, I saw earlier that you said that you were against the media making it look alright for kids to be having sex. But when you say that parents should discipline their kids and tell them no, you're still siding with the media even though you don't mean to.

Parents have to discipline their kids and tell them no and teach them things they should and shouldn't do because there needs to be a counter to things like the media and peer pressure. If parents listen to your ideas, their kids will run wild all over the place, not because the parents IGNORED you.

Kids these days are more wild than they used to be because parents are not disciplining their kids. Instead of being a role model and being an authoritative figure, they're trying to be their buddy and best friend. You can't do that because kids don't respect each other. In those cases they only respect you when you give them what they want.

I know because I've seen this happen all around me with families who live in my neighborhood. I've seen it from helping out at our church's nursery, from helping my mom at the preschool she used to teach at. Myself, I am not a parent. I'm 22 years old, still in college. But I've seen a lot of things that go on in terms of parenting and have talked to plenty of parents who agree with the things I say.

That friend's paper being a doctorate paper means nothing. Look at all the books out there written on how to raise a child. I'm positive...100% sure that almost if not more than 85% of those books out there written by so-called experts were never parents before. They did research but it doesn't mean they know what they're talking about, just like with me. I've observed, but it doesn't mean I'm right.

"Kids these days are more wild than they used to be because parents are not disciplining their kids".

Mainly because, God forbid, you should turn around and spank little Johnny, because society says you'll get sued for that as well now. It's not so much a permissive society, as the lawyers, judges and "do-gooders" have tied parents and teachers hands to disicpline their own children. I feel sorry for parents nowadays. It must be very hard indeed to try to raise kids the right way. Little Johnny just tried to fry the cat in the microwave...time out little johnny, time out!! Give me a Break!

compmore

I'm sure our parents were horrified by our behavior as well...after all we were advocating "free love" moreso than today even. But the diseases are playing for keeps these days.

Pepe yes, they were. my father was very very strict. he was determined that I wasn't going to turn into a hippie. LOL. I laugh now but back then it wasn't funny. haha

I've skipped down to reply to some posts about my earlier post.

I wish I could get these men in trouble that have slept with my youngest neice, but in the state I live in, the mother has to know and has to report it. The thing is, my sister knew and has always known, yet she refuses to do anything about it. My mother wanted to get these men arrested, but she couldn't.

One night my youngest neice went skating with a friend and when the skating rink closed, instead of waiting for my oldest neice's boyfriend to pick them up, they got in the car with two guys, who were both 23, and went to have sex with them. From what I know, and that's not much 'cause I'm never told anything, my neice slept with both guys and yet, apparently, only one of them is facing a rape charge and that's the one that had sex with the friend, all because my sister refused to file charges. Oh, and my neice's punishment for this little escapade was getting taught how to shoot a shotgun and nothing more.

Which is why if I ever have a teenage daughter and she pulls a stunt like that, not only will she get grounded for at least a year, but if the guy she sleeps with is 18 or older, he'll be put away for a good while and be known forevermore as a sex offender.

I will now read the other posts and get back to you.

niceguy. from what you said you probably won't have to worry about your kids like that. you'll take a great intrest in their lives and that's what they will need.

I feel all laws that do not fall into 2 categories are worthless

1. Hurting another person against thier well.

2. Hurting another's property against their will.

And NiceGuy you can hate me now but i applaud your youngest neice for not being a narc. I think its terrible when any guardian figure encourges a young (almost always) girl to put another person in jail FOR HER OWN DAMN DECISION.

Obviously you do not like what your neice is doing, obviously she does. As it is quite clear she consents and wants what happens to happen. Its ridiculus for laws to disregard that.

And for whoever was saying about 15 & 45 or w/e yeah i don't care about that either. Rich 70 yearold men can get hot 20 yearold women cuz their rich and thats perfectly fine but doesn't apply to ppl below the age of 18? Hypocrasy. To each their own, just because you do not like it, believe it, or think it is right does not make another wrong.

I feel the only people that are doing anything wrong are breaking the 2 real laws or disavow God's existence. And if any one wants to say i'm gonna goto hell for my beliefs, say what you please I'd rather stand infront of God after my life and say I denounced hypocrasy, lived my life how i felt was right and that I love God. If that's not good enough that is His choice alone.

I before E, except after C, or when sounded as "A" as in neighbor or weigh.

Niece. How old was the youngest niece anyway? Each invidual teen is different; some are mature and thoughtful, others not so much.

I sense a patriarchal double-standard theme in some of the men's comments/opinions.

I commend the parents/guardians who instill a sense of personal decision-making in their children and not being manipulated or led by the crowd.

"and yea, you did touch a nerve when you riddled your response full of personal insults and took the conversation out of realm of debate and put it into playgroundesque immature mockery."

Interesting.....

I found one statement that would qualify as a direct attack on YOU. That would be ...

"Take that paper and wipe your behind .. etc.. "

No,
I think the nerve I touched was a little .. deeper .. than that.

Most of the time, people that take stances like yours have a seld servinf reason for doing so. This creates a need to justify their behavior in their OWN minds. My first thought, given your age, is that you have an underage girlfriend, probably close to the age of 17, and thus "borderline" legal. This age issue bothers you so much, since you have probably been dating for a couple of years, putting her at about 15 the first time ....
This would make it a sensitive issue.
Theory number two ...
You brought up the "Christian Normal" thing VERY quickly, when it wasn't even hinted at. Very powerful defensive reaction when no attack was issued.
I don't particularly care what two consenting ADULTS do with each other.
The nerve is more likely some need to justify something in the back of YOUR mind, not mine.

darkened I've got to say that you're very sick. a 12 year old is not emotionally mature enough to make those kind of decision. don't come anywhere near my daughter or you won't like what happenes.

Compore, I totally agree with you. You sound like a father that knows what he is doing with his children. I my self have a daughter and she means everything to me. There are so many fathers out there that have no input into their children's lives either because they work too much or they are not around. I applaud you for your commitment to your family. The breakdown of a family starts with the father and his decisions. I am not putting down the women who take care of their kids by themselves ( you are doing a great job by yourself and I commend your efforts) . But in all honestly it was my dad and his belt that kept me in line not my mom. For those of you who do not have kids your minds will change when that child looks to you for guidance and wisdom. You WILL NOT tell them that it is ok to have sex at 13-17 and give them a condem and say go for it. There has to be a balance in teaching them the right way and just saying NO. The problem with these kids nowadays is they have no respect for themselves or for anyone around them. This is the parents fault. If my daughter gets out of line she will get disciplined for it. If that means she gets a spanking then that is what I do. The Spankings my dad gave me never killed me, actually it keep me out of trouble when i reached my teenage years. I was more afraid of him than any peer pressure my friends could have put on me. Your kids have to have a respectful fear of you or they will run over you and not respect anyone. Those who chastise their children actually LOVE them.

compore lol. You got that right. You come around my daughter with that garbage your gonna get a ass full of buckshot. I love my daughter more than anything in this world. If a pervert were to harm her in that way, well let's just say I might be doing some jail time.

John thank you but I do have to respectfully disagree about one thing. my father loved us very much but used a belt himself. he never abused us however I could not or would not do that to my kids. I found a swift hand on the rear was more than enough. also I was afraid of my dad too when I was a teen and that did keep me out of trouble but I want my kids to do right because they respect me not because they are afraid of me. I never wanted my kids to be afraid of me like I was of my dad at that age. I really don't think that's healthy for them.

they are more afraid of my voice. I have a deep voice and when I get angry......sometimes I yell too much. I've made many mistakes myself

I'm not going to debate sex or no sex between PEOPLE regardless of age because it seems that, when something like this is discussed, someone's personal feelings and what's best for someone else is always the difference. At least that's how it seems to work in my experience. People push how they feel about something onto others, and most of the time they don't realize it.

IN MY OPINION, it's all about responsiblility. You have sex, you better be ready for the consequences. The waves we cause in the water is what happens in life, and it's plain as day. Cause and Effect. There is no way to stop it. I truly hate to let most of you in on this secret, but there is no such thing as safe sex. Condoms are proven to have a 75% effectiveness. That means 1 in four times having sex you risk a disease or pregnancy. Instead of actually being responsible and taking the time to know someone, being with them for a while, and learning to repsect each other and eventually know that you can deal with the conqequences of out actions. We strap on the old condom and play the victim when something bad happens. I've heard it all before. "But I was practicing safe sex." It's like being told to drink responsibly. The more drinkgs you have, the more responsibilty goes out the window. You can't "control" that because you can't make the alcohol not permeate the membranes and eventually effect your judgement. You can't make an indestructable condom that allows feeling and will never slip off. Most people never understand tragedy until it happens to them, and then some of them don't learn from it.

Whether you believe in God or not, sex is for procreation, and it'll happen because that's nature. People cannot control nature. When someone straps on a condom they don't think about what'll happen if it doesn't work. They don't think about the child that will be born to people who don't really want it, and just wanted to have a perfectly good and natural time. Unfortunately, most people don't think about the consequences. I have always refused to allow my selfish nature to take precedence over the outcome of my actions, at least where it might hurt someone else. No one is perfect, myself included, but there are still consequences to our "mistakes" and we have to take responsibilty for them.

I've enjoyed reading your posts compmore. I'll take alot of what you said to mind as I raise my child. It's nice to know someone out there still has respect for themselves and for others.

BTW, I was raised by my grandmother because my parents left me there when I was 7. My grandmother did not like that and we had no relationship. I never once received a talk about sex. But I learned from the consequences of irresponsiblity. Most people don't, and I have no idea how I did, but I am VERY thankful for it.

At 16 we deems humans ready and capable of controlling a ton and a half of metal careening down a highway at 60 miles per hour, yet we are adamant that they are not capable of controlling their own mind, body and heart.

Here's what I find interesting. Most folks adhere to the "you're not an adult until you are 18" philosophy, therefore you cannot take part in adult activities such as sex, drinking, etc. Yet, 100 years ago, parents were desperately trying to get their kids married off by the time they reached the age of 14 to 16. They either arranged marriages or put lots of pressure on their daughters to find a suitable mate before they got too old and became "old maids." They were also expected to provide grand-children by the time they were 17. Those were the ideals of society in that day and age. Ironically, the ages involved (14 to 16) were more closely aligned with the timing of the human body's introduction to natural sexual urges.

Watch Disney's Sleeping Beauty. Her parents couldn't wait to get her married off at the ripe age of 16. Not to mention the marriage was to someone she hadn't seen since she was an infant and didn't really know him more than a day. Her infatuation with him came from a single meeting as a 16 year old girl, which many of you have pointed out is a far cry from a true understanding of love. If this whole scenario is understood to be completely wrong by today's standards, why are "moral" parents allowing their children to watch this movie from a very young age? Why are they not picketing Disney as endorsers of underaged sex and purveyors or pornography?

My parents were very conservative and always pressured me to abstain from sex. Heck my mother freaked out one time because my girlfriend (now my wife, btw) and I fell asleep together while watching a movie -- fully clothed -- and we were over 18 at the time! The ironic thing is, I don't think she cared as much about whether or not anything had happened as she was worried about how it would reflect on her if anyone found out (like anyone really would have cared.)

My wife and I never had sex with anyone else and we did wait until we got married to do so. Ironically, I believe that my decision to not have sex until marriage would have been the same even if my parents had been more open to the idea, because of my ideals regarding sex as an extension of love. This is not an ideal that I recall my parents ever reenforcing because they dealt with the subjects of sex and love by ignoring them (other than to say "No way, not for you!")

However, I believe that many of the issues that I have had over the years regarding low self-esteem and a tendency to be introverted, have stemmed from the way I was raised to believe that this and that were "bad" or "evil." Even now, in my mid thirties, I shy away from authority figures and have trouble looking people in the eye. I also greatly value my privacy (one of the reason I frequent this site as well as the EFF) and without it I would probably feel as if I was constantly being "judged."

I don't consider myself a complete introvert or even a prude. However, I do believe that I feel a lot more guilt than is necessary and I lack the confidence to open up and enjoy life as much as I should be able to.

I just think that some of you folks that so firmly believe in and enforce the "no sex until you're 18 / married" rules are missing the fact that you may be causing greater and large scale damage across the board. On the other hand your kids may be ignoring you and having tons of sex on the sly and you don't even know it. That's the way it seems to go: many kids rebel; others become introverts.

In any case, it may be a bit selfish to assume that your "absolute abstainance" rules are best for all kids. If you think that your kids can't make a reasonably sound decision by the time they reach the age of 16 and that you must rule with an iron fist to keep them in line, you have already failed as a parent. No monumental change is going to occur over the course of 2 years that will straighten them out and make them see things your way.

I will be trying to build a strong but non-judgemental foundation of right and wrong with my kids. When the time is right, I will give them the information that they need and trust that they will make the right decisions for themselves.

Rant over.

People are having sex younger these days? I suggest anybody under that belief take a history lesson, and quick.

quick history lesson. a hundred years ago teens didn't have the luxury and play time they have today. they were expected to earn a living and support families and take on full responsibilities in life. they were equiped to handle it because they were taught at an early age (long before puberty) the realities and cruelties of life. they had the time to mature and take responsibility for their lives. today teens are not. A 16 year old today is as prepared as a 10 or 12 year old was a hundred years ago. they're smarter intellectually but not as prepared for life. Why? because we in society protect and shelter our children a lot more then we did back then. yes you're capable, but not ready. I'm capable to be a doctor but I'm not ready for it because I haven't been taught. life is kinda like that.

Teens hang with their friends, listen to music play, attend school activities etc.... all this was not avaliable to teens back then. they grew up faster because they had too. it's a trade off and really a poor comparrison. if you want the responsibilities at 16 (you are capable yes) the sacrifice is that you have to take all responsibilities of life early on which means missing out on all those great and wonderful teen years.

My daughter said it best to me once. she refused to do her chores or try to earn money. she said she doesn't want to miss the fun of her teen years cause she knows she'll have to earn her own way in a couple of years. yet she's the first to complain when she doesn't think we're giving her enough freedom. you can't have life both ways. responsibility means commintment and sacrifice.

If you think you're ready for it go ahead. there is a price to be paid and the kids a hundred years ago paid it. I'm willing to bet they would've loved to have the life of teens today

Teenagers are a category of young people 13-19, most if not all state laws would not allow you to sell any of this to a person under the age of 18 anyway. And by that time that person is perfectly capable of walking into a pharmaceuticals store and buying this stuff. It is the younger kids I worry about, because even if these things dont get sold to them, it is sending them a message that it is ok, even cool to have sex, when in reality, with sex comes a heavy responsibility even unwanted consequences at that age. Children 13-18 (teenagers) are just that children in many ways at that age they are incapable of making sound decisions on a lot of issues even though they may think they can. I can tell you that when I was 18 I could careless if I got arrested, today I weigh my decisions with more scrutiny. Condoms in a music store, that idea just doesnt sound well with me, condoms are usually sold in pharmacies for a reason, when you are old enough and responsible enough to use them then you should. A teenager in my opinion has no idea what heavy consequences can arise if a condom breaks, passion is one thing, reality is another.

"My daughter said it best to me once. she refused to do her chores or try to earn money. she said she doesn't want to miss the fun of her teen years cause she knows she'll have to earn her own way in a couple of years. yet she's the first to complain when she doesn't think we're giving her enough freedom. you can't have life both ways. responsibility means commintment and sacrifice."

I agree with you 100% with choice comes responsibility, having condoms in a music store does not help anything, it only helps MTV's sales. MTV back in the 80's and 90's was about not doing what you are told, it was funny cause in many ways it was just a joke a way for young people to unwind. You would sit down and watch a video about how much you hate your chores or whatever and it would end there, today these assholes are totally out of control. I wonder if the viacom execs preach this kind of shit to their own kids.

I really don't understand how everyone always equates working your ass off and making sacrifices with maturity. Many of today's youth are forced to start earning a living at a very young age becuase of their family's economic situations. Those kids may not be as well prepared for love, sex and emotional commitment as some of the kids that spend their youth hanging out at the mall. Every child is different. They all reach levels of maturity at different ages. One thing is certain, though: When they are physically, emotionally and mentally ready for sex, they can either act on it or surpress it. Neither choice is necessarily right for every person at the same point in life, but when it comes down to it, no one can make that choice for them. They will have the final say and they will have to live with the consequences of their actions...or inactions.

What I learned in my youth was to suppress urges and emotions and so I internalize everything. I hold it all in. Now I am paying the consequences of inaction as my body is deteriorating -- literally destroying itself from within from stress related illnesses. Our emotions are very powerful and can have a strong influence over our physical well being. I'm not trying to say that this is a result of suppressing sexual urges, but rather is a result of the overall emotional suppression.

I abhor the idea that everyone believes so much in the idea of this magical number "18." Like there is some metamophosis that occurs between when you go to sleep the night before your 18th birthday that transforms you into an "adult" by the time you wake up in the morning. Dates on a calendar don't make you mature. It is way more complicated than that.

If your kids really want to have sex, you won't be able to stop them any more than the RIAA can stop 60 million people from sharing music files. The only way would be to lock them up, but we all know that would be ridiculous. Providing proper guidance and information would help them make the right decision that ultimately is entirely up to them.

"....most if not all state laws would not allow you to sell any of this to a person under the age of 18 anyway."

I could be wrong, but I don't know of any state wherein it is illegal to sell condoms to people under the age of 18. Enacting such a law would be asking for a huge surge in pregnancies and sexually transmitted diseases. It's hard enough to get teens to use these when they are have sex without making it illegal.

"Condoms in a music store, that idea just doesnt sound well with me, condoms are usually sold in pharmacies for a reason, when you are old enough and responsible enough to use them then you should."

I've got news for you. Condoms can be purchased at most grocery stores, Target, etc. The only person who stands between a teen and owning a condom is another teen working the cash register.

Having said that, I would like to say that I am not that thrilled with the idea of MTV condoms. As others have stated, I think the motivation behind the campaign is more greed than concern for the teens.

"I really don't understand how everyone always equates working your ass off and making sacrifices with maturity."

because it is.

I know quite a few folks who aren't as prepared to make decisions about sex that are as mature as most 16 year olds. Age means very little.

Oops, I left something out:

I know quite a few folks IN THEIR LATE TWENTIES who aren't as prepared to make decisions about sex that are as mature as most 16 year olds. Age means very little.

compmore: "because it is."

I have a lot of respect for you and you bring a lot of insight to this site, but that statement was very narrowminded. Using this as a measurement of maturity, you are basically saying that the 16 year old who dropped out of school because he or she has to work to support a single out of work parent and three siblings is ready and prepared for sex. I realize that I'm stretching here, but you are not being reasonable. Being forced into hard work and sacrifice does not make you an adult. It may make you appreciate luxuries (if they come) later in life and it may make you have a good work ethic -- then again it may not. It might just make you bitter and angry. Humans are much more complicated than that.

Similarly, your statement could be read to mean that people who are born to privilege will never mature.

"Similarly, your statement could be read to mean that people who are born to privilege will never mature."

that is very correct and you are right that maturity has nothing to do with age. it's experience. experience comes with time and that usually translates to age but not necessarily so. for example, if you had a life with little guidence from your parents (or had no parents) and had to work and go to school from a young age to support yourself, never having the oprotunity to develop a "normal" childhood experience, you would be much more mature at 16 then the typical teen. A pampered rich person is no where near that mature until they are much older.

Life experiences and the ability to handle responsibility combined is what develops maturity. that's why 16 year olds a hundred years ago were more able to handle life then 16 year olds today. I'm speaking generally of course. there are exceptions to everything but that's usually the case. sex is only a small component. I guess the point I'm trying to make through all this is that you can't have the fun of responsibility without being able to handle the problems of responsibility as well.

Like you said, personality is a factor as well. for example my brother and I. he settled down down and matured faster than I did. we were both raised the same way. I started a family young and made many mistakes and took the responsibility to raise and support them but my attitude was very imature. I didn't really straighten out until I was in my 30's.

But in general what I was saying is pretty much the case. with my kids for sure.

I'm sorry if I offended you that was not my intention

Dredd, first of all...I was insulted because of your ambiguous assertations to my personality. The paper is completely devoid, as well as my posts, of any pedophilia condination, yet you draw that line in your primitive rational for the sake of insult, or as an immature justification for your status quo affirmed arrogance. People are natrually attracted to the same age group because they share simuliar interests, and large age gaps in relationships ussually involve some sort of self-serving exploitation on one participants part. An 18 year old and a 14 year old who attend the same school can very realisticly be attracted to each other well beyond a sexual perspective and i find that perfectly fine, but as niceguy pointed out the situation of his 12 year old niece being sexually active with men twice her age, I think it's safe to say, and I'm sure I'm in agreement, that sort of relationship is definately based on sexual exploitation. The exploitation of anyone's naivety, sexual or otherwise, is clearly wrong as it impedes upon a person's freedom and trust. This is the reason for staitutory rape laws, that is the reason we have fraud laws. To assume I have no concept of this is to belittle me down to a complete psychopath, and then you begin to intrude on my freedom to think independently. Infact, I find it absolutely sickening that this debate would be twisted into anything involving pedophilia at all. You also refer to my opinion as BS and then go on to tell me to "wipe my ass" with it, in a sort of pre-emptive verbal attack for any sort of crass behavior I had yet to display. That would strike a nerve with anyone, and you go on and extend yourself in yet another post as if you're demonstrating the correct way to generalize people. You seem to proudly display an antipathy towards people who develop their own moral philosophy, while hypocrtically raving about how you can't stand people who impede upon other's personal lives (yet you're living how your parents have told you to live). With your brass ego, assault on my opinion, introduction of pedophilia into the debate, and overprotectiveness you've displayed for your children, I could easily evoke Fraud's 'Three Essays on the Theory of Sexuality' and draw a generalization of you, but I will not sink so low.

Which brings me to your questioning of my pointing out christianity. I did not introduce defiance to Christianity Morality into the conversation to scapegoat my opinion, but to point out a typical narrow minded reasoning. There are thousands of society's with independent cultures. An individual's morality is based upon their cultural upbringing. Traditional Christian morality teaches that one must be abstinent until marriage, and (as America is a country heavily built upon Christian beleifs) dominant American morality says that one must be abstinent until 18. What kind of profound ignorance does it take to declare your culturally derived morality superior to that of anyone else? And beyond that...how can you possibly throw blind insults at someone for developing their own moral standard because you are too timid to question what you have been taught as if everyone who is not in uniform with your brainwashed perspective is wrong by default? Without hesitation or contemplation no less.

You, most likely, had sex as a teenager, as did the rest of the human species. To deny that a teenager is able to engage in sexual intercourse, is to deny the fact that it has been commonplace since before the invent of language...it is to deny your own natrual biology. Teenagers having sex is by no means a new concept (even though it's extremely sensationalized through modern media), and to believe so defies logic. The paper in which I took the excerpts from, an academic study of teenage sexuality and society, is by no means meant to be a parental reference, as some have concluded. I just used it to show some examples of why I think the way I do, but with all acedamia aside, the greatest example can be taken from the the history of humanity. The point I'm trying to make, is that regardless of your moral standard, teenagers engaging in sex is a completely natrual occurance. I'm only suggesting that instead of denial and demands that teenagers ignore their natrual biology and suffer the guilt and fear driven psychological consequences, that they should be encouraged to develop a healthy sexuality. With modern sexuality plagued with diseases and society built in such a way that teenage pregnancy could have devistating effects, it's all the more reason to show understanding and offer guidance in sexual protection, especialy since it's that guilt and fear from sexual repression that makes alot of teenagers too timid to purchase a box of condoms. To conclude, yes I think it's wrong for MTV to capitalize on teenage sexuality with such a distasteful scheme, but perhaps that's the only current alternative for teenagers who have been so completely guilt tripped by parents who refuse to accept reality and hold their children to irrational standards.

actually I've gone over the line a long time ago in this thread and I aplogize since it's not related to the downloading issue at all. I guess it's one of those things I have strong feelings about being a parent and I don't know when to shut up. I'll go on now.

Freud* -- excuse my mispelling of a great mind.

deletethispost proves the point I was trying to make superbly

And compmore, I believe you proved it yourself when you said:

"A 16 year old today is as prepared as a 10 or 12 year old was a hundred years ago. they're smarter intellectually but not as prepared for life. Why? because we in society" [you as a parent] "protect and shelter our children a lot more then we did back then."

that was a typo. I ment to say a 16 year old today is NOT as prepare as a 10 or 12 year old

I accept your apology and extend my own for my overly passionate responses. Obviously each parent should raise their children according to their own beliefs. I just know that the overprotective nature of my own parents left me less prepared for the world than I would have been had I been allowed to make at least some decisions for myself.

I just have a hard time correlating dealing with a hard life and work with emotional maturity. You are correct that we are defined by our experiences. We learn what we live. I just think that being in a situation where we have to work at a young age would teach us about...work. We can only learn about emotional relationship through living them.

Personally I think even the hardest working teen from 100 years ago would find it very difficult to survive in today's world.

I would like to reiterate that I respect you compmore and I respect your right to raise your children in the manner you think is best for them and for you.

I don't regret waiting for sex until marriage, but I do regret that the male human body's condition and sexual drive (for most) reaches it's peak at 18.

Lots of words, strung very cleverly together.
Not impressed.
Have sex with a teen ( under 18 ) go to jail. You belong there.
No wordy-gurdy can sweeten that.
My first time was at age 21.
I wasn't ready for all of the "baggage" that comes with it until then. Even then, I still wasn't ready for the committment.
And once again,
I never called you a paedo. I STRESS again that Paedophiles use the VERY SAME LOGIC to justify their actions.
Anyone great with words can make justify anything.
If you took that personally, there must be something in YOUR mind it jogged.
Sick is Sick, no matter how pretty the language.

but I do regret that the male human body's condition and sexual drive (for most) reaches it's peak at 18.

hahahahahaha. I'm 46 and I can tell you that's not true

Dredd: first of all, I'm not justifying adults having sex with teenagers, I'm justifying that teenagers should be allowed to make decisions to sleep with their significant others. You're the one that turned the entire conversation into focusing on adult/teenage intercourse...which was completely not what the subject is or was about. You're still focusing on that, even though I tried my best to make things clear. What seems to be apparent is that you have some sort of fantastical facination with that or my cleverly strung words were near-impossible for you to decipher.

No, you never called me a thing, you only compared myself and my logic to that of a pedophile. Which is just as much an insult. I'm sure you wouldn't take it well if I compared logic to that of an imbecile (although that shoe might fit much better than the one you tried to put on me).

Compmore: What I meant by you proving my point, is that you're saying that teenagers 100 years ago were more mature than they are now, and you go on to point the finger at society from sheltering and protecting children, however...it's not society who raises a child, it's a parent, therefore the blame rests squarely on your shoulders. Therefore, if a teenager is mature and responsible enough 100 years ago to handle a sexual relationship with a peer, then it is your fault as a parent for overprotecting your teenager to the point where they don't have the skills to transgress into adulthood.

Teenagers will have sex, that's a fact. And in whatever posts that have responded to mine, seem to awknowledge "well yeah, teenagers have a sex drive, but instead of encouraging them to develop as nature intended...we will tell them NO". That makes about as much sense as saying "Occupying another country will reduce terrorism" (which anyone with any knowledge of conflict what-so-ever knows that it only incites terrorism).

...it's not society who raises a child, it's a parent, therefore the blame rests squarely on your shoulders.

it's both. society and peer pressures influence kids a great deal. if they don't see it they don't miss or want it. take laws for instance, I read today that california is trying to pass a law not allowing minors to use tanning booths. society has passed so many laws protecting children and literally taking a lot of decisions out of the parents hands. Did you know (I'm sure you do) that my daughter can go down to the health department, get a medical examination, get a perscription for bith control pills without my knowledge? reguardless of the reasons I'm not crazy about anyone perscribing drugs to my child without my consent. I worked at my uncles gas station when I was 14 years old. laws today would never allow a 14 year old to do that because they might get hurt on the equipment, inhale toxic fumes etc... society plays more of a role than you think.

you've got a lot of good ideas about teens and that's good but you are obviously not a parent and don't know at all what it's all about untill you lived it.

we can't say let the kids make their own decisions and all we can do is guide them then turn around and say it's all the parents fault.

BTW fair warning, I'm extrodinarily touchy about my children because I love them so much. Never, never, never tell me somethings my fault for how they turn out or that I'm raising them wrong. most all parents do the best that they can and all parents make mistakes.

And BTW,
thanks Neg for providing a fine example of the "peer pressure"/"everyone does it so it must be ok" mindset ...

"You, most likely, had sex as a teenager, as did the rest of the human species. "

As a parent I have , sadly had to use a phrase with my kids that I promised myself that I would never use ....

"If everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you ??"

First off , everyone DOESN'T do it.
Second, a common thing for someone doing something wrong, is to convince as many others as possible that it's not "that bad". The more people that do it, the more right is must be.
That's the essence of Peer Pressure. The only purpose it serves is to make someone doing something wrong feel better about themselves.
I do my level best to make my daughters stronger than that. I hope I am successful.

I understood your blather just fine.

"Have sex with a teen ( under 18 ) go to jail. You belong there."

WTF YET AGAIN YOU PROVE YOURSELF TO BE A COMPLETE IDIOT.

http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

MOST STATES DO NOT CRIMINALIZE UNDERAGE (

Wow thats so dissappointing =/

I wrote a page and a half in microsoft word and it clipped all but the very top of it and i spent like an a hr on it, bah.