Alan Dershowitz has drawn media attention by advancing the idea of a "torture warrant" that one would seek in order to legally torture a prisoner. This would help prevent the US from being hypocritical in its use of torture:

In an interview with CNN anchor Wolf Blitzer, Dershowitz clarifies, "...My basic point, though, is we should never under any circumstances allow low-level people to administer torture. If torture is going to be administered as a last resort in the ticking-bomb case, to save enormous numbers of lives, it ought to be done openly, with accountability, with approval by the president of the United States or by a Supreme Court justice. I don't think we're in that situation in this case."

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/03/cnna.Dershowitz/

The US has been subcontracting torture services to other countries by rendition. The CIA has conceded that the practice of rendition has been in effect since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1112-11.htm

http://csf.colorado.edu/forums/pfvs/2002I/msg00846.html

Long before 9/11, we were instructing our personnel, and those from other countries, in torture techniques at our own School Of the Americas (SOA) located in Fort Benning, Georgia (renamed in 2001 the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation or WHINSEC).

"In September of 1996, the Pentagon, under intense public pressure, released the classified training manuals used at the SOA. The Washington Post reported that the manuals promoted executions, torture, blackmail and other forms of coercion (“U.S. Instructed Latins on Executions, Torture,” 9/21/96). The manuals recommended the imprisonment of family members of those who support “union organizing or recruiting,” those who distribute “propaganda in favor of the interest of workers,” those who “sympathize with demonstrations or strikes,” and those who make “accusations that the government has failed to meet the basic needs of the people.” The training manuals are available on the SOA Watch website."

http://www.soaw.org/new/

In the case of rendition, we are simply sending prisoners to places where, in some cases, they will be tortured by our own trainees.

If we are going to completely avoid US hypocrisy in torturing and encouraging torture, then I believe Dershowitz may have to add another desired warrant to his list - what I call a "Practice Torture Warrant," or "Warrant to Practice Torture."

Darrin Wood, reporting in Covert Action Quarterly magazine, Winter 1996-97, prints an excerpt from the updated version of Robert Richter's Academy Award nominated 1995 film, "School of Assassins."

"In Richter's updated version of the documentary, one of those former students revealed some of his "unconventional training":

Mr. X: "The difference between the conventional and the unconventional training is that we were trained to torture human beings. They would use people from the streets of Panama, because they would bring them into the base and the experts would train us on how to obtain that information through torture. And there were several ways of doing it. There was the psychological torture and there was of course the physical torture."

Bourgeois: "Are you saying that ordinary citizens were brought to the School of the Americas and used as human guinea pigs for torture?"

Mr. X: "Some of them were blindfolded and they were stripped and put in a certain situation, I mean setting, where they were tortured. At the time they had a medical physician, a US medical physician which I remember very well, who was dressed in green fatigues, who would teach the students in the nerve endings in the body, he would show them where to torture, where you wouldn't kill the individual. He would tell them how much the heart can tolerate, can hold up. And there were also times where they would revive the person with a powerful drug. When the person was [near death], the doctor will tell you this is enough, you can't go on anymore because this man will die. So it's very simple. If he hasn't talked yet, then you've got to stop because otherwise, he'll be dead."

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/SOA/Mexico_SOA.html

If Mr. X is telling the truth, then a Practice Torture Warrant may not be enough. We will probably need a third warrant, which we might call an "Extradition Warrant to Practice Torture," or a "Practice Torture Extradition Warrant."

Hollywood Defender

be careful what you ask for...

Ummm, if we are going to commit to a war, in which we are going to blow people's arms and heads off, riddle them with bullets, smash their infrastructure, and of course kill civilians in collateral damage, or even reserve the right to massively kill civilians as in the firebombing of Dresden, Tokyo, and the nuking of HiroshimaNagasaki, then why should we be squeamish about torture, if it will gain information that may save lives or shorten the conflict? Dershowitz is normally a tool, but in this case he has stumbled into part of the truth.

If liberals pressure the military into abandoning coercion tactics to gain tactically useful information from enemy combatants, then they will have once again advanced their own selfish political ends at the expense of the national good. Ted Kennedy can't tell the difference between a beheading and a bit of humiliation. Kennedy is an Ish-bosheth.

And since we're going all Hebrew, I'll say that the reaction to the Abu Ghraib prisoner mistreatment is a shibboleth for the left. Can they discern between the baby and the bathwater?

Because torture is an act of a criminal.

It's ok for them to do it though.
Ask Jessica Lynch

Very Good, Autodidact, very well put, and so true.
Ted Kennedy already has innocent blood on his hands. If we reap what we sew, then when is Ted going to reap what he has sown? Hey Justice...look up Ted's address.

America is losing its focus in this election year. Pretty soon everyone will know all the government's dirty little secrets. I'd rather be blissfully ignorant.

Speaking of ignorant...could someone please tell me why my lawn mower quit in the middle of mowing my lawn? It's not out of gas. I can't get it to start, and it is painting my whole day black.

going Hebrew?

Of course the way I see it is, Torture an American you die. If we torture some one and that saves the life of even one American, good.

I agree with autodidact. There isn't much to add. Torture is only a criminal act when the public finds out about it. Before that, it is a necessary tool used by both sides during war. Why put ourselves at a disadvantage? (Yes I know it's horrible, and I'll ask not to have it's horror explained to me).

These attititudes are disgusting.

"It's ok for them to do it though.
Ask Jessica Lynch"

Did Saddam respect human rights? Hell no, thats one of the reasons why you went to war. and now you want to add a torture warrant to remove more human rights.

Torture is criminal, evil, and undemocratic. This is another prime example of how american citizens are losing all thier rights.

rocknrollwoman check the spark plugs? oil? overheating?

Torture is not effective in extracting useful information. This is according to the U.S. Army in 1986 (when I was in). The torture victim just keeps talking until they say something, anything the torturer wishes to hear. Lots of people admitted to being in the service of Satan under torture from the Catholic Church; that didn't make it true.

I think its a good idea this warrant thing, quite pragmatic.

Why are we so worried about what happens to these animals in the jails who chop off peoples heads? I mean seriously, so they have to be naked and "humiliated". WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL, isn't that better than having them bombing everyone?

My point, to be a little more concise ...
When it was done to Ms. Lynch , where was the large public outcry ??
Where where all those "sensitive to human rights" folks ?
Where were all those nations that are pounding on us now, when THAT happened ?
Yes, we ARE supposed to be the good guys but ...

How much must one take, before enough actually IS enough ??
It's time to turn mommas picture to the wall, and do what needs to be done, once and for all.
911 will happen again, if we don't.
Probably even if we do.

A few truths to ignore:
1. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
2. Fifteen of the nineteen hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
3. The Geneva Conventions, which the U.S. helped write and is a signatory to, prohibit torture.
4. According to the International Red Cross, 90% of Iraqis imprisoned by the U.S. are only guilty of being Iraqi. (The IRC has credibility, whereas I give none to Amnesty International which seems to believe human rights are violated if a prisoner is deprived of broadband internet access and a hot tub.)

If we wanted to play dirty, we could win this fast. But I believe the US wants to act like the good guy, however there are those who want to play dirty as well. I wish the US would decide it's stance. You can't have the best of both worlds.

Jessica Lynch wasn't tortured. She was well cared for. She thanked them.
Go watch the Simpsons.

Read her book

Funny, I don't recall using any personal insults towards anyone.

oh, btw .....

By PAUL D. COLFORD and CORKY SIEMASZKO
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS


Pvt. Jessica Lynch

Jessica Lynch was brutally raped by her Iraqi captors.
That is the shocking revelation in "I Am a Soldier, Too," the much-anticipated authorized biography of the former POW. A copy of the book was obtained by The Daily News yesterday.

Best selling author Rick Bragg tells Lynch's story for her, often using her own words. Thankfully, she has no memory of the rape.

"Jessi lost three hours," Bragg wrote. "She lost them in the snapping bones, in the crash of the Humvee, in the torment her enemies inflicted on her after she was pulled from it."

The scars on Lynch's battered body and the medical records indicate she was anally raped, and "fill in the blanks of what Jessi lived through on the morning of March 23, 2003," Bragg wrote.

"The records do not tell whether her captors assaulted her almost lifeless, broken body after she was lifted from the wreckage, or if they assaulted her and then broke her bones into splinters until she was almost dead."

The 207-page saga published by Knopf hits bookstores on Tuesday, which is Veterans Day.

In it, America's most famous G.I. - for the first time since her dramatic rescue on April 1 - dispels some of the mystery surrounding the blistering battle that resulted in her capture, her treatment by the Iraqis in a hellish hospital, and the searing pain that is her constant companion.

A pretty, blond 20-year-old from the hollers of West Virginia, Lynch knew what could happen to her if she fell into Iraqi hands. A female pilot captured in the Persian Gulf War had been raped.

"Everyone knew what Saddam's soldiers did to women captives," Bragg wrote. "In [Lynch's] worst nightmares, she stood alone in that desert as the trucks of her own army pulled away."

The nightmare became real in the dusty and dangerous city of Nassiriya, when Lynch's unit got separated from its convoy and was ambushed by Iraqi fighters.

Bragg, a former New York Times reporter who quit after admitting he had a legman do some of his reporting, gives a cinematic account of the desperate firefight that mortally wounded Lynch's Army buddy, Lori Piestewa, and 10 others in the convoy.

But while early Pentagon reports suggested the young Army private heroically resisted capture, Lynch told Bragg she never fired a shot, because her M-16 jammed. "I didn't kill nobody," she said.

Lynch also denied in the book claims by Iraqi lawyer Mohammed Odeh Al Rehaief, who said he saw one of former Iraqi strongman Saddam Hussein's black-clad Fedayeen slap her as she lay in her hospital bed.

"Unless they hit me while I was asleep - and why do that?" she said.

Lynch described to Bragg how Iraqi doctors were branded "traitors" by Saddam's henchmen for helping her and how they tried to treat her wounds in a shattered hospital where painkillers were scarce. She said one nurse tried to ease her agony by singing to her.

"It was a pretty song," she said. "And I would sleep."

Lynch also confirmed reports in the book that Iraqi doctors tried to sneak her to safety in an ambulance but turned back when wary U.S. soldiers opened fire on them.

But eight days after she was captured, Lynch found herself face to face with a savior.

"Jessica Lynch," he said, "we're United States soldiers and we're here to protect you and take you home."

"I'm an American soldier, too," Lynch replied.

Lynch's painful recovery from an ordeal that left her barely able to walk, unable to use her right hand or control her bowels is vividly described. So, too, is Lynch's discomfort with the spotlight - and with being called a hero.

"I'm just a survivor," she said in the book. "When I think about it, it keeps me awake at night."

Originally published on November 6, 2003

Iraqis Doubt Lynch Rape Claim
NASIRIYAH, Iraq, Nov. 7, 2003


Iraqi doctors who treated former prisoner of war Jessica Lynch dismissed on Friday claims made in her biography that she was raped by her Iraqi captors.

Although Lynch said she has no memory of the sexual assault, medical records cited in the book — "I am a Soldier, Too: The Jessica Lynch Story" — indicate that she was raped and sodomized by her Iraqi captors.

The book — due to be released Tuesday — covers Lynch's experience between March 23 when her 507th Maintenance Company convoy was ambushed in Nasiriyah and April 1 when she was evacuated from a hospital by U.S. commandos.

Lynch suffered broken bones to her right arm, right leg and thighs and ankle and received a head injury when her Humvee utility vehicle was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade and crashed into another vehicle. Eleven soldiers were killed in the attack.

Dr. Mahdi Khafazji, an orthopedic surgeon at Nasiriyah's main hospital performed surgery on Lynch to repair a fractured femur and said he found no signs of rape.

Khafazji, speaking at his private clinic in Nasiriyah, said he examined her extensively and would have detected signs of any rape. He said the examination turned up no trace of semen.

Dr. Khafazji said Lynch was taken first to the Military Hospital, a few hundred yards from the ambush site at around 8 a.m., about an hour after the attack. A few hours later, she was brought to his hospital.

"She was injured at about 7 in the morning," he said. "What kind of animal would do it to a person suffering from multiple injuries?"

Dr. Jamal al-Saeidi, a brigadier general and head of the orthopedic department at the now disbanded Military Hospital, remembers seeing Jessica's motionless body on a bed in the crowded lobby of his hospital. He said a police van parked outside appeared to have brought her to the hospital.

He said Lynch was fully clothed with her field jacket buttoned up. "Her clothes were not torn, buttons had not come off, her pants were zipped up," al-Saeidi said.

Al-Saeidi said he found no signs of rape during an examination although he acknowledged he was not looking for any signs of sexual assault.

Lynch had lost more than half of her blood because of a 10 to 15-centimeter long wound on the left side of her head, as well as broken limbs that caused internal bleeding, al-Saeidi said.

"We had a few minutes, golden minutes to save her," he said. He rushed her to the operating room, away from the crowded lobby, and gave her intravenous fluid and blood and stitched her head wound.

Soon afterward, military intelligence officers came to the hospital to take Lynch away. Dr. al-Saeidi says he told them if she did not get medical attention she would die. They took her to the Saddam Hospital where she stayed nine days until Iraqi soldiers left the hospital.

Several hours later American commandos raided the hospital and evacuated her.

"Why are they saying such things?" a bitter Dr. Khodheir al-Hazbar, the hospital's deputy director, said. "We were good to her."

In an interview timed to coincide with the release of the book and the airing of TV movies about her ordeal, Lynch herself took issue with the way part of her story was told: She faulted the military for exaggerating her conduct in battle and the operation to rescue her.

"They used me as a way to symbolize all this stuff," she said in an excerpt from the ABC interview. "It hurt in a way that people would make up stories that they had no truth about."

She also said there was no reason for her rescue from an Iraqi hospital to be filmed. "It's wrong," she said.

Footage of the rescue was aired repeatedly on television networks reporting how a special forces team bravely fought into and out of the hospital.

"I don't think it happened quite like that," Lynch said.

It has since emerged that there were no Iraqi forces at the hospital, and that Iraqi doctors had tried to return Lynch to American forces but were forced to turn back when U.S. soldiers fired at them.

But she praised the soldiers who rescued her. "They're the ones that came in to rescue me. Those are my heroes…I'm so thankful that they did what they did. They risked their lives. They didn't know, you know, who was in there."

Early reports had Lynch fighting her attackers until she ran out of ammunition and suffering knife and bullet wounds. Military officials later acknowledged that Lynch wasn't shot, but was hurt after her Humvee utility vehicle was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade and crashed into another vehicle.

Lynch told Sawyer she was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that her gun jammed during the chaos. "I'm not about to take credit for something I didn't do," she said.

"I did not shoot, not a round, nothing…I went down praying to my knees. And that's the last I remember."

Iraqi doctors who treated former prisoner of war Jessica Lynch dismissed on Friday claims made in her biography that she was raped by her Iraqi captors.

Now THAT'S a big surprise.

OJ also says he didn't do it.

RIAA has documented proof that they are going broke.

Everyone in prison is innocent.

I think watching the Simpsons is just a bit better than watching fairy tales on Disney.

Who has credibility? George Bush (no); Donald Rumsfeld (no); CIA (no); Iraqi doctors (no); RIAA (no) Dreddsnik (no); carla60626 (no).
Trust and believe no one.

I'm the happiest girl in the whole USA.

Anyone who thinks tortoring another person is okay is sick.

"Ted Kennedy can't tell the difference between a beheading and a bit of humiliation."

Iraqi In Custody Tortured To Death

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6188.htm

Danish army medics in Iraq saw two prisoners at a British field hospital who had been beaten, one of them to death, the Danish Defence Ministry said on Friday.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3566592&thesection=news&thesubsection=world

Taguba’s report listed some of the wrongdoing:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

American troops today admitted they routinely gun down Iraqi civilians - some of whom are entirely innocent.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=13087653_method=full_siteid=50143_headline=-US-TROOPS-ADMIT-SHOOTING-IRAQI-CIVILIANS-name_page.html

"Ted Kennedy can't tell the difference between a beheading and a bit of humiliation."

The number of prisoner deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan known to be under U.S. criminal investigation or already blamed on Americans rose to as many as 14 on Wednesday. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld was called to testify before Congress Friday on the prisoner abuse and its ramifications.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-4058913,00.html

Codewarrior's polemics comparing the Nazis to the RIAA always seemed exaggerated to me. But the attitudes expressed here -- torture is ok as long as it's for the guy in the other country, and the ends justify the means, demonstrates how a totalitarian regime can become accepted by "ordinary" "normal" people.

I fear for freedom in this country and my very life when Americans hold such beliefs.

mroop, are you just reflexively disagreeing with me because it is me? Or are you deliberately trying to avoid understanding what I'm saying? I do not say that all of what the military has been doing in the torture department is something I'd approve of. However, I worry we will go too far to the other side, and use virtually no coercion at all.

People in the intelligence community must have studied this subject and know the best way to extract useful information. I agree with the statement that torture will get you information, but it may not be true. Methods have to be controlled and a lot more subtle than what the idiots at Abu Ghraib were doing.

So I am not defending what was done at Abu Ghraib. That appears to be just some sort of sadism, with little intelligent control as to goals and methods.

Still, in the context of war, I do not see how torturing someone is worse than blowing their legs off and leaving them to die in the dust. Or firebombing a town. If it gets the job done, it is evil, but perhaps a necessary evil. (I would put Hiroshima in that category.)

carla, maybe Jessica Lynch was raped, and maybe she wasn't. But if she wasn't she would have been a notable exception among the many women who have been taken captive in Iraq. Rape seems to be de rigeur for those Iraqi bastards. I listened to one woman who went down in one of our support helicopters. She had lots of limbs broken, face a mess. They found her in the wreckage. The VERY FIRST THING they did was rape her. We do pointless brutish things, but we investigate it, and hopefully we will punish it, but our enemy plays by completely different rules as a matter of course. But if you're happy, I'm happy.

Jeffreystube (I like your handle, BTW), Iraq hand nothing to do with 9/11? Read the article "Case Closed" in the Weekly Standard, with multiple-sourced documentation of the cooperation between Saddam's intelligence service and high level Al Qaeda operatives. Saddam's boys even visited bin Laden's compound. To say there is no link and no responsibility is to put blinders on. Saddam was a state who supported terror. He supported Palestinian terror, and tried to assassinate George HW Bush. Also, if you read the book The Third Terrorist, there is an Iraq link to the Oklahoma City bombing which the Clinton gang refused to pursue. Saddam was evil. Saddam supported terrorism. Saddam had WMD's and wanted more. Our war on Saddam was a righteous war. The cause is just. I just hope we don't kill the patient trying to cure the disease. That is my only fear. However, now that Iraqis have had a taste of freedom, it may be that they will fight to retain it. Still, I'm making no predictions.

carla, just for clarity, my "going all Hebrew" comment refers to Code's incessant use of the term Ish-bosheth lately. Which is a good term. I'm not mocking in any way. I am a keeper of the Hebrew biblical sabbath, and have the highest regard for the Hebrew language, people, and the Jewish religion. But if Code can use the Hebrew, I can use the Hebrew, too. ('cept he maybe had the advantage of going to Hebrew school? I did not. I'm a self-confessed amateur. LOL)

We believe only what we choose. A choice, however, is impossible without the whole truth entirely visible. When presented with the WHOLE truth, most of us would, really, choose a peaceful, harmonius path.
That's the problem.
Those that would use us against each other know that if all of the cards were on the table, their power would end.
Only one thing is certain, BOTH "sides" are indeed lying, AND telling the truth.
This polarizes us, and makes us sooo much easier to control.
C'mon,
let's fight each other some more.
As we face each other, our backs are exposed.

All this talk of torture is torture. (And very UN-AMERICAN.) If you approve of it, for ANY reason, you are in need of psychiatric help IMHO. Please readjust your thinking. We Americans are ABOVE torture. We rightfully CRIMINALIZE those who perform torture. We may punish and confine or constrain (in a humane way) those who break laws. We may even sometimes have to kill to defend. BUT TORTURE IS BEYOND OUR VALUES!

Get out of my country if you support torture of fellow human beings or other living creatures. Wicked cruelty does NOT BELONG HERE!

--Shmoo, of Electric Gypsy

I don't give a damn if I step on anyone's toes by saying any of the above. Torture is inexcusable no matter who does it and no matter for what reason.

You haven't stepped on any toes.
You believe as you do. It's your right.
You don't HAVE to care what I or anyone else thinks.
Right now, you can even tell us what you think, without fear.

You DO know that all of that is about to change, don't you ?

You can not fight a war with democratic ideas against those with non-democratic ones in this war

If you do, you better covet to Islam before too long.........

Those who attacked us on 9-11 have won if we throw away our freedoms and justify and participate in similar acts of barbarism. Do any of YOU want to give Al-Queda the victory? All you gotta do is say that torture is ok in certain instances.

Shmoo

We'll certainly come out on top if we simply stand in place, hands behind our backs going, "tsk tsk, that was very naughty".

I wsa gone most of Sunday and missed seeing this piece...but this is an excellent topic and I wrote my own reflect on the subject independently this morning at
http://news.dmusic.com/article/12114

Two wrongs don't make a right.
Three rights make a left.

I have been somewhat bothered of the fine distinctions that Mr. Rumsfeld made on television when he said that he was not a lawyer, but as he understands the definition, the stuff at Abu G was "abuse" and not torture.

Let's say some of these prisoners were forced to eat ham or bacon. To them, this is "poisoning their soul"....would this be abuse, torture, or just a dietary choice by their captors.

I think I saw one picture of a prisoner with a hood on his head hooked up to wires....

I think when soldiers say they didn't know it was wrong to sodomize a prisoner with a light stick or rape a woman, because they didn't have specialized training to tell them it was wrong...or, when Rumsfeld is trying to draw a fine line between abuse and torture...

I fear for what happens to any of us exercising our free speech when they decide to hold us.

I wanted to explain one thing with regard to my use of Ish-Beshoth.

I have primarily directed this at Cary Sherman, so that, if he ever visits this page, as a fellow Jew, I want him to know I hold him personally responsible, and to be a man of shame, for shamefully using the tactics of the Nazi PR minister Josef Goebbels against his own countrymen.

A word for both men and women in the RIAA of Jewish origins who practice the Nazi tactics is also "bosh". Bosh is the word for shame in Hebrew; 2:25. Bosh is the equivalent to feeling insignificant before somebody else...

"Bosh" means to feel shame in Hebrew.

The JEWS of the RIAA should feel shame, they should be ashamed of what they are doing to people in this country.

All words of shame should be associated with the RIAA's Jewish members.
By using the Big Lie tactics of the Nazis, they shame their families, both those who go before them amd those whom they begat.

Shalom!

Shame is a shrinking feeling...feeling "lowdown"

revised and extended: just to be clear, and not to be accused of racism, when I refer to "Iraqi bastards" I mean (obviously) the counter-insurgents.

As Randy Newman learned, you can never be too obvious. And as Steve Martin said in Roxanne, irony is dead.

So, just trying to be crystal clear.

Thanks for the Hebrew lesson, Code. Shame, shame on them all. Have you no decency, Mr. Sherman>?

Dreddsnik, I never advocate nothing so trivial as going "tsk tsk" when evil-doers do the evil.

Yes, we sometimes MUST fight aggressively and even kill to protect ourselves when it comes down to it.

Torture and inhumane acts, however, are NOT PART of that need to sometimes fight and even kill.

Torture IS terrorism. Self defense killing is merely self defense.

THERE IS A DAMN DIFFERENCE!

Shmoo

I understand Shmoo.
I just got VERY ticked at the double standards ( or what appeared to be such ) by many outside AND inside our own country.
We are reviled for it ( yes it IS the wrong thing to do ), yet, not only are the incidents against our own people glossed over, hidden, or just plain forgotten, our own spin machines proceed to paint the victims as liars and opportunists.
It's the same thing that the court system loves to do to victims and it makes me wish to vomit. It's as disgusting as the acts themselves.
Those who wish to be "righteous" need not only call attention to our deeds, but hose of our enemies as well. They must also be certain to remember, ALWAYS remember, what was done to OUR OWN PEOPLE.
The instant we forget, it will happen again.
Shmoo, as a long time part of this, I ALWAYS respect and value your opinions.
That won't change.

btw, it IS happening now. We have forgotten, or simply refuse to believe it.
We had all better take of our rose colored glasses, before it really is too late.
We make not like the NAZI parallels code posts, but not all truths are bright shiny happy or popular. The truth usually just "is".

Dreddsnik -- you're missing the Nazi parallel -- beliefs like what you've espoused contribute to legitimizing the Nazi mentality.

*sigh* ..
To quote myself carla, in case you missed it when you READ that post ..

---------------------------
just got VERY ticked at the double standards ( or what appeared to be such ) by many outside AND inside our own country.
We are reviled for it ( yes it IS the wrong thing to do ),
---------------------------

Note that ..
it IS the wrong thing to do.

Those NAZI parallels are convenient, aren't they ?
They "work" for you when you wish them too, yet "offend" you when they point to directions you really don't want to look.
Similar to those that use the Bible for justification of their actions. Close interpretation of the bible has justified an unimaginable number of horrible crimes against humanity.
Now, while you are looking at the NAZI parallels to attack me as a person, take a second look at Codes parallels as they relate to our civil rights.

Don't hate our countrymen for it, while holding out your hand to those who do it with a smile on their faces.

You alleged atrocities that I don't believe have occurred. Your sources are questionable. I think you are trying to stir up hatred against some foreign enemies or whatever you chauvinists prefer to call them.

Was Jessica Lynch raped? I don't think so. If it were proved she was, I would condemn the act and demand that perpetrators be brought to justice. Not tortured, however.

Stop creating hysteria to promote your cause.

Wanting to expose and stop shameful actions is not tantamount to hating one's country.

OF COURSE what the enemy has done to us was wrong... that does NOT make it OK to do the SAME SORT OF EVIL in return!

REVENGE is NOT the same thing as JUSTICE and DEFENSE!

An evil act is an evil act, no MATTER who did it! Those who are NOT "evil" themselves should refrain from evil.

How can we call ourselves "good" when we do evil?

Folk's, this is war. War determins who survives, not who is right or wrong.

Well then, let's be RIGHT about things and get the fuck out of the war. Let the folks who really WANT to kill each other do that if that is what they want to do. Just keep them away from the more advanced and evolved humans.

The human race don't need them in the gene pool anyway.

War? War? An undeclared unprovoked war on a country without weapons of mass destruction? Since when does our country START wars? It's despicable.

I wash my hands of it.

We don't START wars... we may have to FINISH them from time to time... but carla, you are right... we don't START wars when we are of right mind.

We were always the good guys. We aren't acting like it now. It's very sad.

Don't wear the white hat nor wrap yourself in an American flag if you can't walk the walk nor talk the talk.

Play by the enemy's rules and you will LOOSE (because the enemy makes up the rules and also CHEATS!)

luv ya carla!

Shmoo

We haven't had a war declared by Congress since World War II.
And, it's interesting that WWII was also the last "War" that we could feel pride in our participation without being divided. Despite the fact that there were the German-American (rea "Nazi") Bund in pre-war America, most Americans felt support and pride in what our troops were doing, and the returning Americans from WW II were , by and large, welcomed back with parties and open arms. The wars after the second WWII have not been clear cut decisive victories for our country in the sense of people sitting around a table and signing surrender papers to the USA.

The Korean conflict is still basically going on...Vietnam, don't get me started...

Some might say that 60 years ago, the world was more black and white...evil and good more distinct...

I think that one reason WW II was different was that the Congress voted based on the will of the people to engage in War...and since then, we have not been so unified.

Hey Baldrocker,

Who survives determines who is right.

"mroop, are you just reflexively disagreeing with me because it is me? Or are you deliberately trying to avoid understanding what I'm saying?"

I thought what you said was quite clear:

"Ted Kennedy can't tell the difference between a beheading and a bit of humiliation."

Characterizing torture and murder as "a bit of humiliation" sounds alarmingly similar to the RNC talking points. See - Rush Limbaugh comparing the prison abuse to "frat party" antics.

I was simply pointing out that what has occured in numerous prisons in Iraq is torture and murder. That goes far beyond "a bit of humiliation".

Seymour Hersh's new piece just came out, he's the guy who was first to report on the Taguba report. You can read it here:

http://newyorker.com/printable/?fact/040524fa_fact

You believe my sources are questionable.
I believe yours are questionable.

You are the only one here attempting to stir things up by using personal attacks.
I stated what I thought. I provided documentation ( I think Jessica Lynches book ) from the source, so to speak.
You provided documentation of denial by the ones who were the perpetrators.
When that was pointed out, you got "personal".
Kind of like our current politicians, when vying for public office. If you can't cut it on the issues, just attack them personally, until they slink off.

I can't make you believe my documentation.
You can't make me believe yours.
If you wish to continue to criminalize american victims ( you know what liars they are ), thats your right.

Carla60626 "We were always the good guys. We aren't acting like it now. It's very sad."

I have a question what reality do you live in? This country has done notorious acts to people they have captured or ENSLAVED. Why do you think so mant Blacks have the last names of Washington, Adams, Jefferson. Alot of the slave masters would RAPE the black slave women even though they were already married. The children of these rapes would end up in the masters house as Slave Nigga's. Have you ever heard of the Tuskeegee airmen. They were Black airmen that were given a Venerial Disease by our own government. Our own government would give the Indians blankets with small pox in them to kill them off. Things have not changed for this country one bit since it began. Don't get me wrong I love this country. I have served in the military and would give my life to defend Her and the people I hold dear to my heart. Just don't try and say this Country has always been good or done the right thing because it has not. This country has done alot of good but it also has a dark past that we can not just sweep under the rug and act like these atrocities have never happened.

Jessica Lynch did not write the book. The man who wrote it is not a credible source. Jessica never said she was raped. In my opinion the story was created to create hysteria against Iraquis.

I don't understand what you mean by "continue to criminalize american victims."

You are probably correct, we will not change each other's opinions. If you want to agree to disagree that's fine with me.

And John, I agree -- white men suck. It's time they grew up.

And by white men, I mean the historically dominant white male patriarchal society.

"You provided documentation of denial by the ones who were the perpetrators."

I have to correct you on this one. It has never been suggested that Dr. Khafazji was a "perpetrator". He is an orthopedic surgeon who operated on Jessica's fractured femur.

Although it was hard to tell from the US media propaganda, the entire Jessica Lynch rescue was a sham perpetrated by the military with the media happily going along with the BS. The Iraqi military was long gone before the US military even arrived on the scene. This was heavily reported around the world months before the truth began to leak out here in the US.

"Have you ever heard of the Tuskeegee airmen. They were Black airmen that were given a Venerial Disease by our own government."

LOL Dude, you are combining the Tuskegee Airmen with the Tuskegee Experiment. The subjects of the Tuskegee Experiment were not given syphilis, but they were not told that they had it.

"For forty years between 1932 and 1972, the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) conducted an experiment on 399 black men in the late stages of syphilis. These men, for the most part illiterate sharecroppers from one of the poorest counties in Alabama, were never told what disease they were suffering from or of its seriousness."

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html

Tuskegee Airmen:

Who Were the Tuskegee Airmen of World War II ?

The Tuskegee Airmen were dedicated, determined young men who enlisted to become America's first black military airmen, at a time when there were many people who thought that black men lacked intelligence, skill, courage and patriotism. They came from every section of the country, with large numbers coming from New York City, Washington, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia and Detroit. Each one possessed a strong personal desire to serve the United States of America at the best of his ability.

http://tuskegeeairmen.org/MainFrameset.htm

LOL moopie. I didn't read that post closely enough.

Funny stuff. : ) The Tuskegee Airmen was an excellent movie. 7.2 at imdb.com.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0114745/

Dude you can believe whatever you want. We know the TRUTH. We in the Black community have been targeted by White men in power to be exterminated since the end of slavery. Since the white man can not control us they would rather see us gone.Why do you think there are liquor stores and gun shops ( on darn near ever corner) in the Ghetto. You don't see these kind of establishments in areas that are mainly upper class White America. It is a way of forced genocide. You can live in your Lilly White reality, but I am Black and I have to watch my back all of the time because the police have painted bullseyes on our backs. We have to be twice as smart as a white person to get a lesser job. The funny thing about 9/11 is that White America now knows how it is to be Black in this country. To be on alert all the time, looking over one's shoulder, wondering when the next beating is going to come. The terrorists are your KKK. You remember the KKK the domestic terrorists that BOMBED the homes and Churches of Blacks in the south. Welcome to our world. How do you like it? I am not saying all white people are bad. My Mom is white. My 6th Greatgrandfather was the first President Of the United States ( John Hanson). It was not George Washington as the history books tell us. Unfortunately there are alot of people out there who hate black people just because the color of our skin. That to me is very ignorant and stupid. So Mroop you can believe what you want. Come live in our world and be the target of racism, lynchings, beatings, and Slavery. We know the Truth of what has happened to our race over the years. Not the lies it seems you believe in.

Also Mroop I meant Tuskeegee Experiment. And they were GIVEN syphilis by our own government. I bet you belive that the Native Americans were not given blankets with Smallpox in them to kill them.

"Also Mroop I meant Tuskeegee Experiment. And they were GIVEN syphilis by our own government."

Sorry, not true - the victims were not given syphilis. If you want to try and find a source to back you up then go for it. You kind of shot your credibility when you mixed up the Tuskegee Experiment with the Tuskegee Airmen. If you know so much about the Tuskegee Experiment then you would not have claimed that the victims were "Black airmen". You must be a little embarassed that a white guy knows black history better than you. : )

"Why do you think there are liquor stores and gun shops ( on darn near ever corner) in the Ghetto."

If you think there are a lot of liquor stores in black neighborhoods then you have obviously never been to a low income Irish neighborhood. : )

mroop, thanks for the link to the Hersh New Yorker article. Their reporting on Iraq has been excellent, IMO. I do suspect Rumsfeld as the cause of a lot of problems in this war. I agree with the war, but not Rumsfeld's management, I think. I haven't read the article yet, but it appears to confirm some of my suspicions.

If they have raped and killed, then that goes beyond "humiliation," and I do not think that is wise practice in the process of coercion.

My overall belief remains firm -- we must use coercion intelligently and with restraint to obtain life-saving intelligence.

carla, are we bad guys? We are rebuilding schools and stocking them with books. we are rebuilding hospitals and stocking them with medicines. We are rebuilding power stations and supplying more electricity than people got when Saddam was in power. We are fixing sewers so that poop does not run down the middle of the street. Yeah, you are right, we are really bad guys. Awful. Horrible. How can we live with ourselves?

The problem is that we have not been able to maintain order in Iraq. Highway bandits are everywhere. Ransom kidnappings have skyrocketed. Women can barely leave the house. Crime is rampant. Here's a couple news aggregators that I like to use:

www.cursor.org

http://whatreallyhappened.com/

The whatreallyhappened guy is a little whacky but he has good links.

Have you read any of the Iraqi blogs?

This guy is a dentist who has a good blog. He is pro-USA, although I haven't read him lately and he might be a little pissed now.

http://healingiraq.blogspot.com/

You can see a list of other Iraqi blogs on the right. Baghdad Burning by Riverbend is a good one. She was a computer programmer before the war but had to leave her job after the war.

FYI, the original Iraqi blog was Dear Raed that started in the months leading up to the war. People speculated that it was a CIA psyops operation because he seemed to be in favor of US invasion, but it turned out that the blogger is a real Iraqi. I remember when he wrote about US troops searching his house. His father was a high ranking government official. They treated the family with disrespect and when the family was let back in the house they found that the soldiers had stolen his father's whiskey. One of Riverbend's relatives is an architect. He submitted a proposal to repair a bridge and the cost was around 300K for the job. But the job was given to a US firm for something like 50 million dollars! This is the kind of stuff that happens all the time that all the Iraqi's know about, but we never hear about in the US. It negates the good works we do by building schools, etc. And btw, I wouldn't believe that crap about electricity. When I was reading Riverbends blog about 4-5 months ago, she was constantly pissed about the electricity that was rarely on, they always had power before the war.

Sure, mroop, they always had power when Saddam was in charge. And they never wanted for food or medicine, or sanitation, despite billions flowing in to Iraq from oil-for-food. Right. I really believe that.

Since I read the New Yorker regularly, I know all about the problems and bad stuff -- they do not shy away from reporting it. Yes, there are two sides. I know, I know. I am not an apologist for the Bush adm, but I still support the need to do what we are trying to do.

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-05-09-1.html

Essay: How Could Americans Do Such Things? by author Orson Scott Card

Mroop, they were given syphilis by our government. My source is that I know a family that this tragedy happened to. So unless you have first hand knowledge of what happened then keep your comments about this sensitive issue to your self. The government can make up any story it wants to for their own sake. They commited this horrible crime and covered it up by saying they were just observing (wink wink). Trust me, you don't know as much Black history as I do. Just because you can do a google search on a topic does not mean you have this wealth of knowledge. If your so darn smart about Black history who are the Buffalo soliders and were did they reside from. Now answer this question before you goto a search engine. Mroop it is unfortunate that you believe whatever is told to you by our government. These crimes were commited on these black people by our government and no one has ever been brought to justice for it. Just because you have an article that says otherwise does noy mean it is truth.

Oh by the way you still have not answered my question. How do you like living in our world?

How did they give them syphyllis? It's a sexually transmitted disease. My understanding of the "experiment" was they did not tell certain people that they HAD syphillis and waited to see how the disease progressed. Certainly horrible in and of itself.

The government makes up stories and so do paranoid people.

For the most part any disease can be injected into your system through a needle. It is my understanding that the government told these people they were giving them an innoculation shot for whatever reason and injected them with the syphilis strain. Then used them a guinnea pigs to try and understand the disease. You do know that you can get HIV and Hepatitis through a needle and not just through sexual contact. I am not paranoid just a person who wants to know the truth.

Thanks for the link autodidact - I'll give it a read tomorrow.

"Mroop, they were given syphilis by our government. My source is that I know a family that this tragedy happened to. So unless you have first hand knowledge of what happened then keep your comments about this sensitive issue to your self."

No, I don't have first hand knowledge. But with all due respect, let me suggest that you don't have any first hand knowledge either. Let's assume the family you know had a member who was in the Tuskegee Experiment and this person found out he had syphilis 30 years after the fact. How would this person know how he contracted the disease. I humbly submit he would have no idea whether he got it via sexual relations or via injection from a doctor.

I don't want to get in a pissing match over who knows more black history. However, you did confuse the Tuskegee Experiment and the Tuskegee Airmen and incorrectly suggested that the victims of the Tuskegee Experiment were "Black airmen". That does call into question your knowledge of history.

"Oh by the way you still have not answered my question. How do you like living in our world?"

I like it OK. It ain't perfect, that's for sure. : )

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Thomas, did these men have syphilis before they volunteered for the experiment, or did that--were they injected with syphilis by the government, as many people believe?

DR. STEPHEN THOMAS (director of the Institute for Minority Health Research at Emory University): I think you have hit the nail on the head. That is a critical question that was really not answered today, nor was it answered in the HBO movie, Miss Evers Boys. The common view in the black community is that the men were injected by the government doctors. And that is why you see the kind of anger, and that has been repeated by Minister Louis Farrakhan and others that really are voicing a common folkmyth in the black community. But in my work and in working with the literature I have found absolutely no evidence that the men were intentionally injected by the government doctors. And maybe we can clear that up right now on this show.

FRED GRAY (ATTORNEY FOR THE TUSKEGEE PARTCIPANTS AND THEIR HEIRS): Well, we made a thorough investigation of it, and we found no evidence--the men had syphilis--there’s no question about it. We found no evidence whatsoever that the government inflicted them with syphilis. The tragedy is bad enough, and we don’t need to make it any worse, but there is absolutely no credence to the fact that they were injected with syphilis.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/may97/tuskegee_5-16a.html

mroop, probably a lost cause trying to educate old 316. He probably doesn't even know who Hunter-Gault is.

Actually, the truth is they were abducted by space aliens and given syphilis injections. And I got this from a friend of a friend of a very reliable source.