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The Horrors of Witch Hunts- A Full Attack on P2P is Brewing
Posted by AdminCodeWarrior in on May 5, 2004 at 11:02 AM





I am listening to a hearing right now, that probably makes me madder than any governmental hearing I have heard in the past.

They are targetting P2P , especially Kazaa, and the woman speaking now, is alternately using the terms "child pornography" and "adult pornography", as if they are the same thing legally and in every other way.

Another thing they are doing, with their various panel speakers, is throwing in terms like fraud, the need for criminal investigations, etc..

Look, having listened closely to this hearing
(Info on the hearing...
Online Pornography: Closing the Doors on Pervasive Smut.
Hearing by the Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade, and Consumer Protection
Thursday, May 06, 2004
10:00 AM
2322 Rayburn House Office Building

http://energycommerce.house.gov/108/Hearings/ 05062004hearing1264/hearing.htm

it is abundantly clear what they are doing.

Number one, they are trying to blur the lines between "child pornography"
and "adult pornography". This is totally inappropriate from many standpoints.
The obvious road they want to go down, is to outlaw ALL graphic depictions
of a sexual nature, and a guy just asked one of the people in law enforcement
whether they had enough people to "stop the spread of online pornography on P2P".

The speaker who asked the question, keeps referring to "pornography" as "this problem"
and is referring to people who are owning sexually explicit sites as "bad actors".
He is also fishing around for a direction for legislation.

The use of the generic term "pornography", just keeps going on and on.

Number two- The discussion is shaped and formed to criminalize ALL forms of sexually explicit material. They are talking to the representative from the FBI about this issue, or as they keep calling it..."this problem".

Number three- They have tossed together words like "fraud", "illegal file sharing"
and other terms, to get the listener to believe that just about everything going on
with file sharing on P2P networks, involves illegal activity. And now, the speaker asked if the pornographic files are "traceable" (and this is a theme he keeps coming back to).

Number four- They are discussing "blocking" and "filtering" on Peer to Peer.
--------------------------------SNIP--------------------------------------------

Folks, I want you to understand something. What we are seeing here, is the first movement toward a total, governmental assault on the users of P2P. P2P is the
subject they keep coming back to, and the FBI keeps talking about their secret
"New Initiative". What I believe, from this, and everything I have seen to date
from all the sources I have looked at, is a national witch hunt against peer to
peer systems, software, and users of those file sharing protocols.

This is going to get WAY out of hand, really quickly.

Everyone who uses filesharing networks, P2P, etc., needs to get politically active NOW..not tomorrow, not next month, NOW.

We need to establish a strong political action machine to prevent this kind of steamroller approach to outlaw file sharing, and to avoid what I guarantee is
going to become a massive, FBI driven, criminal surveillance of P2P users.

This is extremely serious, and I think, this is the most serious threat to
our rights as digital consumers that has come down the pike.

One of the men on the panel is Mr. Pitts. You need to check out this link on
Mr. Pitts involvement in this issue.
http://www.house.gov/pitts/press/releases/030725r-p2p.htm


For Immediate Release
July 24, 2003

Rep. Pitts introduces bill to protect children from peer-to-peer porn

Washington—Congressman Joe Pitts (R, PA-16) today introduced the Protecting Children from Peer-to-Peer Pornography (P4) Act. The P4 Act gives parents the tools they need to protect their children from pornography and threats to privacy posed by peer-to-peer file trading networks.

“Millions of people are using peer-to-peer software at any given time. About forty percent of them are children,” said Rep. Pitts. “Unfortunately, pedophiles and pornographers use these networks to distribute pornography. If a child using this software wants to download a file, he or she can type in an innocent key word and inadvertently download pornography.”

In March 2003, the General Accounting Office (GAO) and the House Committee on Government Reform found that: pornography is readily available and accessible on P2P networks; children are easily exposed to pornography while using P2P programs; and the filters available to parents do sufficiently address the threat to their children’s’ safety.

“Our legislation gives parents the tools they need to protect their children from pornography and threats to privacy posed by peer-to-peer file trading networks. By working together to protect children, we are building a broad and bipartisan coalition,” concluded Rep. Pitts.

The P4 Act regulates P2P software, and requires the Federal Trade Commission (“FTC”) to adopt regulations that require P2P distributors to:

Give notice of the threats posed by P2P software;

Distribute P2P software to a minor only with a parent’s consent, and not when parents have used a “do not install” beacon to indicate their desire to avoid P2P software;

Comply with the Children’s Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA) when collecting information from children under age 13;

Ensure that the software can be readily uninstalled; and

Ensure that the user’s computer not be commandeered as a “super node,” and not disable or circumvent security or protective software, without consent.

# # #





User Comments

Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:11 AM
it'll just drive it underground.
Chief Op OfficerShadowMom
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:13 AM
How can they say P2P is so bad, when they didn't do any real research on the rest of the internet to compare it?
Chief Op OfficerShadowMom
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:15 AM
They also didn't check out the filters...who didn't do their homework?
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:15 AM
the second panel involves people from Missing and Exploited Children organizations...obvious trying to link online pornography and kids disappearing...this is a shameful attempt to criminalize P2P as a reason
for kids getting kidnapped,killed,etc.. These congress people should be ashamed...each is an " ISH-BESHOTH", a man (or woman) of shame...
DMemberghost1735
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:18 AM
So the question is - how can we get our voice heard?
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:20 AM
we're going to need to do some organizing or something, because I can see right now where all this is going...and it's not pretty!
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:22 AM
This cat is talking about a gigabit connection as if everyone has it...downloading an entire movie in six seconds...does anyone here have a GIGABIT connection? I'm on a fast cable...and it's not anywhere NEAR that...

This guy must list his address as "666 Twilight Zone Way"

Geeeez...and these people listening don't know any better!
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:24 AM
And this guy demonstrates that this whole thing is about copyright -- not p0rn.
DMemberghost1735
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:24 AM
LOL what an idiot - its all talk - do they bring up and legitimate source???
This is really really sad - I thought these people went to school wtf!
Folktomsong
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:24 AM
Tahnks for the action alert, Code my man. You have gotten it right.

Marty Lafferty and Adam Eisgrau of the P2P organizations are on the hot seat at the hearings and are trying to rollout a voluntary compliance to forestall shutting down the internet. I have written on this extensively as an unholy alliance of the RIAA and Ashcroft, that is, big bidness is te SAME as government. You should go back and read my articles The Brand That Rocks the Cradle.

http://news.dmusic.com/article/10576
http://news.dmusic.com/article/10445

Fred of EFF told me not to worry so much. The Supreme Court in Miller wasn't able to define sexual explicit material THEN and cannot do so now, despite Bush's obsession with chil pron.

What we weren't counting on was Joe Barton assuming chair of House Commerce Committee. He is indeed sponsoring Boucher's DMCRA legislation on May 12. My inside friends say, "Gve Barton a chance" and "this anti-pron stuff is going to blow away at the FCC after the election," but I don't agree.

This is nothing less than shutting down the internet.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:30 AM
I assure you, Tom is right!
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:33 AM
I hope someone else is monitoring this hearing, because I am fast approaching my saturation point of BS with this woman talking...gritting my teeth...Grrrrrrr
Chief Op OfficerShadowMom
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:35 AM
I've got to say it once again, I'm a mom, too, and I know what my daughter does on our computer, I know what she sees on our tv, and I know what she listens to on our radio. Why can't these people get it straight, BE WITH YOUR KIDS.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:36 AM
I think I am going to use my "Bullsh*t Filter" and shut this woman up.
If she were my wife, I would commit suicide right now...what an irritant
she was!
Chief Op OfficerShadowMom
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:36 AM
You aren't kidding about her -- who's with her kids now?
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:37 AM
I meant the woman on that hearing...this is one time I was glad I only had audio on a hearing :0)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:38 AM
AMEN ShadowMom...you got that right!
excellent point...

my son is 30...I know he has seen pornography...but he turned out great.
Chief Op OfficerShadowMom
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:39 AM
I don't know why they say the filters don't work on P2P anyway. I once tried to find "All You Zombies" on the K-word, and it filtered out the word "Hooters"!!
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:39 AM
That guy's name was Norbert Dunkel. 'nuff said.

Too bad we can's see the speakers, only hear them.
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:41 AM
I don't mean THIS guy, I meant the University of Florida guy.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:44 AM
We really need to come up with an effective plan to oppose what is coming down the pike.
DMemberJC123
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:44 AM
How the hell do you turn off the internet? Unless God is a technogeek, you can't shut off the whole internet at one time.

On top of that, call me an ass but don't these kids they're trying to protect go on to perform the very acts the adults of now want to censor? It boggles my mind that these people make a big fuss and drown in a sea of their own stupidity. You can't regulate everyone just by passing laws. We tried banning one thing. Incohol. It led to organized crime. You ban the internet and the world takes notice. And quite frankly the world won't stop just so we take 2 minutes to try to tackle a moral problem that the government shouldn't really be trying to solve.
DMembernitedreamerxp
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:46 AM
Trying to put the genie back in the bottle by assuming normal adults don't need to look at porn, child porn which we can all do away with needs to be delt with I agree it needs to be thrown off the net period but to assume all p2p is bad is just outrageous just because some parents ignore the fact it's their job to educate themselves of the internet and watch their kids sheesh no wonder the gov. is doing everything they can to control the american public because average joe just assumes the gov's. doing the right thing until joe public gets a whiff of some idiot law that seems out of control and is all over the news then it's pretty much the damage is done.
Every day it seems the gov. chips away the constitution and our rights when we become an unfree country the terrorist have won then and joe public is letting them win.
DMemberJC123
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:49 AM
I in no way am trying to offend anyone with my first question. It's just the fact that it boggles the mind the close mindedness of our elected officials.
Chief Op OfficerShadowMom
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:50 AM
The best family filter is an attentive parent. Hands down.
DMemberaxxis
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:54 AM
I think that it's time for all us to buy some sort of weaponry and placed it next to our computers. When the time comes when they start raiding our homes for downloading, start shooting, whacking, whatever it takes!
DMembernitedreamerxp
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:56 AM
axxis the thing to have is magnets computer drives can get wiped out no software need lol.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:58 AM
did he say the Pitts bill is HR 2285
or HR 2885 ?
Folktomsong
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:58 AM
Now you've said the right thing. Anyone who loves the Hooters is my pal. Best band ever. And leflaw is friends with them. I remeber turning Bill Eavns onto the music. 'and we danced anyway"---great song.
DMembermmnuc3
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:00 PM
everyone, i know it's probably an RIAA song, but Keoki DJ has a song called "Curfew" everyone should listen to it. Go to the energy and commercy website www.energycommerce.house.gov and contact them. leave a reply telling them what you think. if we bog down their servers maybe they'll get a clue.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:00 PM
defeat hr 2885

http://www.house.gov/pitts/press/releases/040504r-p2p.htm
For Immediate Release
May 4, 2004
Pitts: Peer-to-peer software dangerous for kids; Congress to take up issue Thursday

Washington-Congressman Joe Pitts (R, PA-16) took to the House floor today to warn of the dangers posed to children who trade files with peer-to-peer file-sharing software. His speech comes two days before the House Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade, and Consumer Protection will take up his bill, H.R. 2885, during a hearing titled “Online Pornography: Closing the Doors on Pervasive Smut.”

DMembermmnuc3
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:00 PM
actually drop the www and make it http://energycommerce.house.gov
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:02 PM
Here's where Congressman Pitts is coming from :

"Congress must act to protect children from this threat. If left unchecked, peer-to-peer networks will become the worst base of operations which child molesters, pornographers, and predators use to attack our kids online,” concluded Congressman Pitts. "
Chief Op OfficerShadowMom
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:03 PM
Yeah, I love 'em, but if they want to get "shared," they'll probably want to change their name! I couldn't figure out why I couldn't find them, but I have a young'un in the family, so the filter was on. It worked for me, a little too well.
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:05 PM
it is very scary and irritating to listen to that garbage but I think everyone is overreacting. If a law ever passed banning the internet there would be court challanges and I'm confident it would be repealled. I would have to agree with Tom's friend on this
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:06 PM
Yep, I knew it...they brought copyright infringement into it...I KNEW it was just a matter of time til this part of their transparent agenda floated up like a turd in a cesspool!
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:08 PM
compmore...they are going to bring in FBI on their "New Initiative" under the guise of looking for child porn, but, they are obviously ALSO going to be looking for copyright infringement (see previous post).....

I think overreaction on this is almost impossible...

The guy right now is going on and on about copyright infringement!
DMemberBrandonH
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:10 PM
There is P2P United which is a P2P lobbying organization. But they lack the money the RIAA has, so I am not sure how effective they can be.

Normally it helps to write one's Senator and Representative, but when most of them are paid off by the RIAA, does that really do any good?
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:10 PM
what a stupid question
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:12 PM
kids.us

No P2P
No hyperlinks....

wow, what a fun site...let's go there right now kids!
:) (Smile)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:15 PM
this guy LIED...there are hyperlinks...they are hyperlinks to pages on that site...but buddy, they are hyperlinks...that guy LIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:16 PM
yep...now the RIAA has been brought in...WHO is this irritating woman asking Dunkel about the RIAA...she needs to be voted OUT!
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:17 PM
Carla...who is that woman that is asking the questions?
She needs to be voted out of office STAT!
Chief Op OfficerShadowMom
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:19 PM
Britney is pornographic...
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:21 PM
This is a list of the committe members (Energy and Commerce).
I don't know who was speaking.
http://energycommerce.house.gov/108/members/members.htm
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:27 PM
yeah, I just went there, there are a few ladies, not that many...
do me a favor, if you keep listening....please see if you can
hear who that lady congressperson is...I need to add her to the
list of people that should be voted out of office as soon as
possible!

Here are the female members of that committee
Hilda L. Solis, California
Jan Schakowsky, Illinois
Diana DeGette, Colorado
Lois Capps, California
Diana DeGette, Colorado
Karen McCarthy, Missouri
Anna G. Eshoo, California
Mary Bono, California
Barbara Cubin, Wyoming
Heather Wilson, New Mexico
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:30 PM
This panelist was horrible
Ms. Penny Nance
President
Kids First Coalition
919 Prince Street
Alexandria, VA, 22314
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:32 PM
lol...sounds like Nance is sucking up and trying to pass our her business cards...what a waste of space she is...she didn;t know the mike was still live....lol...
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:32 PM
Bevery LaHaye, Concerned Women, that's the anti-feminist organization.
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:33 PM
Beverly
Chief Op OfficerShadowMom
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:33 PM
Sometimes their ignorance is astounding. Making laws and setting policy, and some of them obviously haven't got a clue what they are supposed to be talking about.
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:36 PM


I am completely against child pornography. I am against the carnage that it creates; (child abduction in the US and especially in other countries beginning the list).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

However, blending the terms:
"child pornography" and "pornography"

in one statement in a congressional hearing is the same tactic as naming everyone that uses P2P as a "pirate". Now they are also adding the discrediting title of "child pornographer" to the internet population/P2P user.

While I, personally, will go the extra inch to help authorities incarcerate a child pornographer, (the exact same way that I would report a guy bashing his car into a store front window), I STRONGLY PROTEST ANY added enforcement, or monitoring of the internet, by any government, or any private official in the name of public safety.

Also, the next step to end the pornography of children is not a drag net of all internet/P2P users, but perhaps an open door reporting system available to P2P users that allows them to report, (with attached file, and ip address of the user), directly to all authorities, (first of them the P2P provider themselves).

I completely agree with everyone at this hearing, to this SINGLE point;

Child pornography must be stopped!!

However, I am not convinced that allowing any government every last measure available in that direction is the right step. Perhaps when there is a successful hearing that can identify good pornography, (the illustrations of the "Karma Sutra"), from the bad, (.... you wouldn't like it), and everyone on earth can agree to some clear definitions, the world can consequentially allow some more jurisdiction. But putting any government in a position to police something on the internet is another bad idea in my mind.

Lets just arrest everyone that works for, or helped print almost any edition of "National Geographic" right now!!
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:39 PM
child porn is horrible.

But, the hearing just used it as a pretext to get the ball rolling, and you noticed that near the end...they brought up copyright infringement and the RIAA ....the child porn was the grease to get the wheels of oppression rolling!
Chief Op OfficerShadowMom
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:44 PM
Child porn will mobilize a lot more of the public, and people will support the bill without having any idea what it's all about. Just like the Patriot Act, use those key words and you'll get every sheep right in line.
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:44 PM
be alert and vigilant but I still say we're overreacting right now. It is, after all, an election year.
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:48 PM
If only these people actually cared about children -- health care, good schools, parents with jobs.
Advancedpinemikey
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 12:59 PM
Typical...use a real problem (child pornography) as an excuse to attack P2P for copyright infringement. The disgusting thing is to use sexual exploitation of children to achieve your business plan. The kids get exploited again. The RIAA has to be the lowest form of life on the planet.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 1:13 PM
There were groups in WWII, before we entered the war , that said this Hitler guy is ok...you folks wanting to enter the war against him are overreacting...

If you see rust that makes a bridge unsafe...it's better to react then, than wait til a storm is raging, cars are on the bridge, and it's swaying.

Acting now, whether it is reactive or proactive, is reasonable and proper.

The storm clouds are brewing...as one of the congress critters said..."Legislation is coming"...verbatim...

One can be alert and vigilant, but if you just stand there and watch the fuse on dynamite burn to the end....you can watch it explode in your face.

The time to act is now...not wait until it is too late!
Advancedpepe512000
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 1:20 PM
We really need to come up with an effective plan to oppose what is coming down the pike.

Alright, EVERYONE gather together an old PC hardrive, take them down to your congressional reps, or Send them in via US post, purolater, or whatever system you have, but we need to make a GREAT HUGE HEAP of computers for a demonstation somewhere to show them that they might as well shut down the internet, cause that is what it is going to take to "get a handle" on ANY kind of pornograpy problem.... Someone gather the address's..I've got a few old clunckers sitting around that could use a nice new home...

Forget p2p, there isn't a search engine on the net that doesn't lead you to porn, and you don't even have to be looking for it! Good old Google.
Advancedgoldenpi
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 1:22 PM
Its often been observed that any mention of the internet makes traditionally shady content seem far worse. There was an incident very recently whre a soap star was caught on a security camera viewing (and using) internet porn. Reading a magazine in the toilets during the lunch break wouldn't raise an eyebrow, but get the internet involved and its front page material on the scandal sheets.

Shadowmom is right. The vague mention of fighting child pornography will ensure complete public support, regardless of actual content.

There are many shades of pornography. Obviously the child porn isn't acceptable. But I have a moderate hentai collection. Lots of sexual images, but all hand-drawn. Essentially cartoons. I cant see any reasonable person saying that shouldn't be legal. Everything in between is contriversal, and contriversal topics tend to attract polarised oppinions.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 1:35 PM
ShadowMom is right, and this committee, and people like "Open" Hatch and Lamar Smith know it too. That's why they are trying to make this child pr0n and P2P connection..and they kept trying to make out like P2P is just loaded with pr0n more than websites or anything else. Look, these slimy politicos know what they are doing, and they have a REAL agenda which has very little to do with protecting ANYONE, least of all kids. They are about gaining surveillance and control of internet traffic, period. And, unfortunately, they have a chance to do that, unless everyone thinks we are overreacting and thus, do nothing.

Doing nothing will ensure we are locked into a series of draconian , privacy invading legislation the likes of which have not been seen before!
DMemberghost1735
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 1:39 PM
So whats the game plan? I'm have no clue when comes to gagnering that kind of support. What does the EFF think of all this?
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 1:40 PM
react to fix the problem, yes. I'm not advocating complacency. The sky wasn't falling yet in 1923 with the Beer Hall Pusch but had the nazis been stopped then the world would look very different today. A bridge with rust isn't falling down anytime soon but will in the future if you don't act.

This P2P issue is serious and needs addressing now. But the sky isn't falling yet so we need to be calm and methodical to address it. Code you're a man who is well thought out and educated along with a great deal of practicality. You've suprised me lately.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 1:49 PM
Comp..apparently here is what has surprised you...

1) I've dared to expose that the RIAA is using the PR propaganda
tactics of the Nazi propaganda minister, Josef Goebbels. The tactic
is known as the Big Lie, and their "pirate" and "piracy" comments
are exactly that. No one who disagreed with me said I was wrong.
How dare I say bad things about the RIAA!

2) I've dared to say we shouldn't oppose being called pirates.
Wow, I'm really radical.

3) I hear Congress people saying "legislation is coming",
that they are mixing the RIAA, copyright infringement, and child
porn into something they are calling "the problem", and the people
who put any kind of pr0n on the Net are now "bad actors", and will
be apparently the subject of the "New Initiative" (fabricated
by who...the "New" World Order? How dare I say we need to organize
and oppose this , which is one of the most serious threats to P2P
that I have seen. What a crazy thing I am advocating, right?

You don't wait til the sky is falling, cuz if you do, by definition
it is already too late!

Sorry to upset or surprise you...but, I have to say what I must to
expose the tactics of the other side, and to urge people to develop
a plan to counter these attempts to eventually, make all P2P surveilled
by the FBI. They might decide that the Music Mafia video contains
copyrighted material and if you listened to the hearing, they are going
after copyright infringers too, and by "they", you know who I mean.

Comp...just read what you said..."A bridge with rust isnt't falling down anytime soon..." It depends on the degree of corrosive oxidation my friend, and that is something that you just don't know.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 1:52 PM
As for the Nazi era, I'd be glad to discuss what would have happened if Hitler was never let out of prison with that little book he called "My Struggle" (Mein Kampf) that he wrote in prison. One thing I know about is the history of the Nationalist Socialist Party. I've made a point of learning a lot about those a-holes...I'm 1/2 Jewish and 1/4 German, so I had 3/4 of my ethnic heritage affected by that bunch of sadists!
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 1:54 PM
meant I dared to suggest we SHOULD oppose being called murderers and robbers (legal def of pirates)...sorry for typo when I said "shouldn't)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 1:55 PM
Ich weiß etwas über Nazis, meinen Freund.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 1:56 PM
and, in Hebrew, I say, Cary sue- is an ISH-BESHOTH!
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:03 PM
code you're assuming that's what has suprised me. you've said many of those things before. what has suprised me is the approach your taking. it's more reactionary and emotional rather than thought out. though it's great for the blood pressure and an inner sense of justice, it's not effective. that's so unlike you.

Also I know what I've said. I'm just trying to make a point without getting into details. P2P isn't close to being shut down yet. lets make sure they don't get that far. what's happening now is the same sort of emotional retoric on the congress side at these hearings. it's an election year. there are over 500 congressmen and we're hearing from a handful. Doesn't mean there's no danger. just means it's not close to being over and we have a great chance to influence this is we just keep our heads about it.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:09 PM
just checked my bp compmore...it's where it usually is...100/65 mm Hg

I sadly believe we are developing a rift between our views about the seriousness of the state of things my friend...

the Patriot Act was passed without being read...and there are things developing out there that I will NOT talk about, but things you don't know about, that may turn up the heat on all of this....

you tack "Protecting and Saving Minors and other Children Against Child Pornography in P2P networks" and these congress people won't even read it...
after all...how could anyone be against THAT...and meanwhile...copyright infrigement is snuck in there, and provisions for monitoring all P2P networks, mandatory ID of all users...etc.

Love ya Comp...but we are really differing in our views on the seriousness of things and when, and how loud, to ring the alarm bell...
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:11 PM
and, I am sorry if assumed wrongly what surprised you...was just going on when you started expressing these surprised feelings
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:20 PM
not the seriousness at all. I agree with that. it's the approach. guess I'm just thinking more toward educating the general public. that's where I try to focus my projects. both approaches are needed.

Take for example the animal rights movement. I'm not involved with that and I'm just part of the general public. When I see these people in the streets chanting, breaking laws and commiting vandalism I (as part of the general public) have no sympathy toward their movement even though animal abuse is a serious and overlooked problem. If I don't have sympathy then I know the majority of the public doesn't either. They've managed to get legislation passed to help protect animals but still have little public sympathy to their cause (to animals yes, their cause, no) I see them and the animals they are protecting as a seprate issue. That's how the public views us. I'm looking at just P2P not the whole spectrum of erroding our civil rights. It is serious and I do agree with you 99% on the assessment of the issue and what they're doing. Remember the phrase in the Godfather
"Never let anyone know what you're thinking outside the family again." (just saw that again the other day) We need to take the high road
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:21 PM
and I'm still your friend too
DMemberJC123
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:21 PM
I believe now would be the time that the pendulum goes "tick"

I'm writing to congress first thing tomorrow afternoon after work(time difference. It's now 3:22 am here. Insomnia rules!!!)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:26 PM
:) (Smile)
RockgdZiemann
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:27 PM
"reactionary and emotional rather than thought out... it's not effective."

I thought passing new laws was the way to change things. Well, they're passing new laws. Things are changing. The wheels of justice move slowly. The genie is out of the bottle. The sky is falling.
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:31 PM
It is George I guess I'm not voicing my views very well. I'm heading back to work
DMemberphoenix7846
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:34 PM
Everybody, I have to agree with code here, that this kind of shit needs to stop. We need to stop talking amongst ourselves about how we're gonna tackle this problem and tackle it NOW!!!! i'm gonna start posting little mini-flyers over the school i go to, and hopefulyl educate everyone a bit. anonymously, of course. i don't usually post anything, so take this seriously.
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:34 PM
I guess the question would be then, if the sky is falling and we're on the edge of turning into a facist state (which I'm not so sure of anyway) how do we alert the public and educate them without turning them off to our cause.
DMemberaxxis
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:51 PM
nitedreamerxp : I thank you for your suggestion, however it is my duty to protect my personal property by what means necessary.

I've worked long and hard for over a year and a half to get what downloads I now have, and there is no way in Hell that I'm going to have some government-suited bastard tell me what I can do on my own private home computer.

May the government burn in Hell!!!
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 2:59 PM
welcome back George! :) (Smile)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 3:38 PM
you can't turn em off if they were never turned on ...

i see it like this...if you want to alert people to abuse of Iraqi prisoners....you have to show the abuse pictures...

if you want people to know legislation is bad or the RIAA is bad...you can't just beat about the bush...I posted their suing of that Grandmother...
they have no compasssion for people, not kids, not Grandmas...nada...what other group went after old men, kids, grandmas....

they work by using the Big Lie...what else used the Big Lie as its propaganda tool...

they call people they are against by names they know hits people at a stereotypical level, at an archetypal level..what group portrayed the group of people they were trying to get rid of , by caricaturing them as rats with big noses?

they bully, and threaten people with the laws they helped pass...
what other group threatened people with laws they helped pass....

they have been involved in trying to indoctrinate kids in schools with their
propaganda...
what other group was involved with trying to indoctrinate school children with propaganda...and established a youth corps

I could go on and on..but I think most students of history know where I am going with this....

Comp...are you really sure we are not in danger of turning into a fascist state?

Let's see, warrantless searches now are legal in five states
The Supremes have ruled you must present your papers to any law enforcement person asking for them, with or without probable cause
Our soldiers have been torturing prisoners, physically and psychologically...
Cops in Oregon Taser and Pepper Spray a 71 yr old blind woman and hit her so hard her prosthetic eye is knocked out and rolls around in the dirt, and her 94 year old mother is accusing of trying to attack a cop with a bucket of water...
a 97 yr old woman is cuffed and arrested and taken to jail in the Metroplex here in Texas for having an expired registration sticker...

They are setting up "brain fingerprinting" programs

Just about everywhere you go now, they demand your fingerprint (at least here in central Texas...thumbprints to pay for groceries with a check)

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/local/8573715.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp
Security or spying? Police gather intel on G-8 protests
"We have never had this degree of surveillance," said Schroyer, president of T.O.E.S. and a professor of sociology/philosophy at Ramapo College in Mahwah, N.J. "I have no affiliation with any groups dangerous to the country in any way - unless rational discourse is a real threat."

People have to stay in "free speech" zones away from the president if they disagree with him

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0413/fahim.php
"Canadian inquiry may reveal CIA secrets on outsourcing torture
The Invisible Men
by Kareem Fahim
March 30th, 2004 11:30 AM

hile the nation focused on Richard Clarke's allegations last week, CIA director George Tenet let slip other revelations in his testimony to the 9-11 Commission, admissions that sharpen the contours of the shadowy intelligence practice called "extraordinary rendition."

The policy, codified in the late 1980s to allow U.S. law enforcement to apprehend wanted men in lawless states like Lebanon during its civil war, has emerged in recent years as one of America's key counterterrorism tools, and has now expanded in scope to include the transfer of terrorism suspects by U.S. intelligence agents to foreign countries for interrogation—and, say some insiders, torture prohibited inside this nation's borders.

Tenet testified that in an unspecified period before September 11, the U.S. had undertaken over 70 such renditions, adding that the Counterterrorist Center at the CIA had "racked up many successes, including the rendition of many dozens of terrorists prior to September 11, 2001." Tenet's testimony marked a rare occasion when the CIA, which doesn't comment publicly on the practice, provided any details about rendition. "

California had to decertify the electronic voting machines because
"Wired: "California legislators say paperless electronic voting machines are too buggy to be trusted with the 2004 presidential election. Fearing a fiasco, they ask the secretary of state to decertify the machines.""

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=217&row=2
Winning the Election – The Republican Way: Racism, Theft and Fraud in Florida

"What really happened in Florida?



Five months before the election, Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris ordered the removal of 57,700 names from Florida’s voter rolls on grounds that they were felons. Voter rolls contain the names of all eligible, registered voters. If you’re not on the list, you don’t get to vote.



If you commit a felony in Florida, you lose your right to vote there, and you‘re “scrubbed” from the rolls. You become a non-citizen, like in the old Soviet Union. This is not the case in most other states; it’s an uncivilized vestige of the Deep South.



My office carefully went through the scrub list and discovered that at minimum, 90.2 percent of the people were completely innocent of any crime – except for being African American. We didn’t have to guess about that, because next to each voter’s name was their race.



When I questioned Harris’ office about the high percentage of African Americans on the scrub list, they responded, “Well, you know how many black people commit crimes.”



But these people weren’t felons, so why were they scrubbed?



The Florida Republicans wanted to block African Americans, who largely vote as Democrats, from voting. In 1999 they fired the company they were paying $5,700 to compile their felony “scrub” lists and replaced them with Database Technologies [DBT], who they paid $2.3 million to do the same job. [DBT is the Florida division of Choicepoint, a massive database company that does extensive work for the FBI.]



There are a lot of Joe Smiths in the Florida phonebook. DBT was hired to verify which Joe Smith was a felon and which was not. They were supposed to use their extensive databases to check credit cards, bank information, addresses and phone numbers, in addition to names, ages, and social security numbers. But they didn’t. They didn’t use one of their 1,200 databases to verify personal information, nor did they make a single phone call to verify the identity of scrubbed names.



So where did DBT get their data?



From the Internet. They went to 11 other states’ Internet sites and took names off dirt-cheap. They scrubbed Florida voters whose names were similar to out-of-state felons. An Illinois felon named John Michaels could knock off Florida voter John, Johnny, Jonathan or Jon R. Michaels, or even J.R. Michaelson. DBT matched for race and gender, but names only had to be similar to a certain degree. Names could be reversed, and suffixes (Jr., Sr.) were ignored, but aliases were included. So the felon John “Buddy” Michaels could knock non-felon Michael Johns or Bud Johnson Jr. off the voter rolls. This happened again and again.



Although DBT didn’t get names, birthdays or social security numbers right, they were very careful to match for race. A black felon named Mr. Green would only knock off a black Mr. Green, but not a single white Mr. Green. That’s how DBT earned its $2.3 million.



Why didn’t DBT use their own databases?



They didn’t, because the state told them not to. Choicepoint vice-president James Lee was grilled by a Congressional committee, headed by Cynthia McKinney, and he admitted everything, but said DBT was following state directives. Florida state officials told DBT to knock off voters by incorrectly matching them with felons.



Congresswoman McKinney led this commission to her own peril. Choicepoint is in her Atlanta district. She was destroyed in the last election by fabricated quotes and a vicious propaganda campaign.



Is this the only way votes were stolen?



No. There were 8,000 Floridians who had committed misdemeanors, but were counted as felons. Their votes were scrubbed. Katherine Harris’ office illegally scrubbed people who’d served time in other states, then moved to Florida, and Jeb Bush’s office illegally barred these people from registering to vote at all.



The biggest wholesale theft occurred inside the voting booths in black rural counties. In Gadsden County, one of the blackest in the state, thousands of votes were simply thrown away. Gadsden used paper ballots which are read by an optical reader. Ballots with a single extra mark were considered “spoiled“ and not counted. The buttons used to fill out the ballots were set up – with approval from Bush and Harris – to make votes appear unclear to the machine. One in eight ballots in Gadsden was voided by the state.



The same ballots were used in Tallahassee County, which is mostly white. There only one in 100 votes was “spoiled.” What made the difference? In Tallahassee, ballots were read on the premises, and if they were marked incorrectly, voters were sent to revote until they got it right. In the black counties, the votes were trucked off immediately. There were no machines on site. Voters weren’t told that their votes were spoiled, and they certainly weren’t permitted to re-vote.



When Ted Koppel investigated voter theft in Florida, he concluded that blacks lost votes because they weren’t well educated, and made mistakes that whites hadn‘t. He didn’t even bother to ask how the machines were set up. This is the kind of reporting we get in America. In Britain, this story ran 3 weeks after the election, when Gore was still in race. It was in the papers and on TV. In the US, it was seven months before the Washington Post ran it, and then it was only a partial version. After the election, Gadsden County replaced its voting commissioner. In 2002 they only lost one in 500 votes. So you can say blacks in Gadsden got smarter in one way – they elected a black elections chief.



What happened to Choicepoint?



Bush is handing them the big contracts in the War on Terror; immigration reviews, DNA cataloging, airport profiling, and their voting systems are being rolled out across the country.



It wasn’t reported in mainstream press, but the NAACP sued Harris and the gang for the black purge, and won. The state threw up its hands immediately and said, ‘You got us! We’ll put these people back as soon as we can.’ We’re still waiting. "

ONE LIST PALAST SHOWED ON CSPAN, HAD A VOTER STRICKEN BECAUSE, ACCORDING TO THE PRINTOUT, THEY COMMITTED A CRIME IN THE YEAR 2007! TALK ABOUT THE MINORITY REPORT!

http://www.naplesnews.com/npdn/ma_eagle/article/0,2071,NPDN_14916_2860751,00.html
"Marco Police consider Web cams to monitor city waterways
Waterways advisory committee asks city to fund more marine patrols

By BILLY BRUCE, Staff Writer
May 5, 2004

Marco Island Police are considering the use of "live" digital cameras to allow them to monitor boating activity on the city's huge maze of waterways, Chief Roger Reinke confirmed April 29.

The key word here is "consider," Reinke said. Privacy laws and statutes regarding the use of digital video and other modern technology must be studied before a determination can be made as to whether such a system actually would be implemented on the island.

The idea for using a digital camera system to keep an eye on Marco's 22 miles of shoreline, six large bays, the Marco River, three creeks, several small islands and 290 canals came from resident Bill Tobin.

Tobin, a member of the Marco Island Marina Association, told the city's Waterways Advisory Committee on April 28 that he'd spoken to Reinke about how well the digital camera system is working as a security measure for boat owners who dock in the marina next to the Marco Island Yacht Club on North Collier Boulevard."

http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,63316,00.html
"If you have ever seen the cult '60s British television program The Prisoner, in which captured Cold War spies live on an island under constant surveillance, you can imagine what life may soon be like on Ayers Island, on the Penobscot River near the University of Maine.

In coming years, visitors to Ayers Island, the site of an abandoned paper and textile mill in Orono, Maine, will be spied upon by a comprehensive network of video cameras, motion detectors and sensors. Lurking behind all of those sensors will be an artificial intelligence system that will decide who can be trusted and who is deserving of greater scrutiny.

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Today's the Day. The engineers, drawn largely from the nearby University of Maine, will use the network to test the reliability of new sensors. They will also attempt to demonstrate that AI, combined with ubiquitous sensors, may be able to provide civil authorities with comprehensive, real-time intelligence about the whereabouts of individuals and cars, and the status of buildings and other structures within a particular geographical area.

Ayers Island will be open to the public, who are expected to visit the island for its nature trails, amphitheater, sculpture garden and museum, all part of a planned renovation project for the island. A contemporary arts festival on Ayers Island is scheduled for this summer. Many cameras and motion detectors will be in place by that time, according to the company that owns the island, Ayers Island LLC.

The island's initial monitoring systems will be rudimentary, made from off-the-shelf parts and store-bought alarm systems.

But eventually, ubiquitous cameras and biometric readers, backed by a central computer, will recognize and record faces and license plates, and make it possible for someone sitting at a computer monitor to track individuals everywhere they go on the island, said George Markowsky, president of Ayers Island LLC."

Justice Scalia sent marshalls to erase a reporter's recording of his speech. Under public outcry he apologized, but still maintained that in his interpretation of free speech, that it meant he was free to keep others from recording what he says in public speeches!

http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/permanent_patriotact.htm
"Bush says it's vital to make Patriot Act permanent

San Francisco Chronicle| April 20 2004

Hershey, Pa. -- President Bush said Monday that he considered it vital for Congress to pass a permanent version of the USA Patriot Act, which has been criticized by some liberals and conservatives for giving the federal government too much power in the name of fighting terrorism.

Bush told a convention of Pennsylvania township officials that those concerned about the expanded wiretapping and surveillance powers provided by the act were laboring under a false hope about safety from terrorism."

But no...we're not near fascism...
But I wonder if, very soon, kids who are raising their arm to their heart when saying the pledge, will have to learn a new phrase...
Sieg Heil!

AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 3:43 PM
Breaking News: Orrin Hatch and the FBI gang rape children and post the videos on P2P.

Are they trying to say that RIAA music videos don't contain the use of persons under the age of 18 in a manner intended to elicit sexual arousal in the viewer?

It's all about competition. If you stop the exploiting of children from occuring via P2P, then the only major source left would be the RIAA's videos and music. The RIAA wants a monopoly over the kiddie porn market too.

News Flash: Cary Sherman is rich because of not-so-borderline child pron on P2P.

One thing that amazes me is the assault on P2P to stop this stuff! It existed before P2P. It exists in forms that are not on P2P. And if P2P disappeared from the face of the earth right now, child pron would still exist. So what is the FBI really doing? Considering their illogical methods (not to mention aforementioned videos they make), they aren't doing anything to stop it. All they're doing is selling out to the RIAA. Which should not be a surprise.

This is a huge load of shit. They're flat out lying, and they've practically already won. Everybody believes them. I heard some idiot fucking girl yesterday on her cell phone actually GET ANGRY at her boyfriend.. it was clear from listening that he had downloaded music. "Don't you know that's illegal? What are you trying to do? Don't you know they can catch you now? Why don't you just buy the CD?"

I'm not trying to be overly rebellious. I'm not trying to be a punk who doesn't like authority. I know what's going on, and I don't like it. I understand what's going on, and the fact that the public is sold on this makes me sick.

George Bush (don't act like he couldn't stop it) is a punk for letting this go on. Nobody tell me he's too busy. If he can fly to St. Louis to throw out the first pitch of the season, he has time for other things. I don't even have words to describe the FBI. What an over-funded group of complete morons.

"how do we alert the public and educate them without turning them off to our cause."

Lies and propaganda. Find a way to make it about the children.


"Congress must act to protect children from this threat. If left unchecked, peer-to-peer networks will become the worst base of operations which child molesters, pornographers, and predators use to attack our kids online,”

"Our kids." As if everyone with kids is unified in this glorious cause. Parents must act swiftly and decisively by sitting back and doing nothing so Congress can take care of "our kids." If this is such a HUGE DEAL now, compared to before, then why not an all out assault the parents of exploited children? They're the ones who gave them permission to do it. Unless they're idiots who can't watch their kids (of course). In which case it's still not the fault of P2P.


"you tack "Protecting and Saving Minors and other Children Against Child Pornography in P2P networks" and these congress people won't even read it...
after all...how could anyone be against THAT..."

They have no choice but to vote for it. If they vote against it, then we'll start seeing "Senator [name here] voted AGAINST an act that would have protected children.. blah blah."

Side note: Orrin Hatch recieved at least $175,322 in funds from Holywood, including the RIAA. I wonder how much he got total.

"I think that it's time for all of us to buy some sort of weaponry and place it next to our computers." I'd rather use my hands.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 3:47 PM
About getting politically active, I had the idea of, for example, reading this article into a computer mic, compressing into mp3, naming it appropriately and putting up for download. Lots of possibilities there.

Sorry for ranting, but seriously, both sides can sling the shit. And by "shit" I mean flat out lies. I'll try to contain myself henceforth. I apologize for my indecency (uh oh, indecency).
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 3:48 PM
no need for apology Sherm...I thought you were right on target...that wasn't a rant, and I KNOW rants ;) (Wink)
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 3:48 PM
typo correction: sherman is rich because of not-so-borderline child pron on mtv.
DMemberWerewolf037
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 3:51 PM
So... the empire strikes back huh? As the old saying goes: "The only thing necessary for the evil men to win is that the good men out there do nothing".... I´m going politically active as right now.
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 3:52 PM
I've made my point and that's all I can do.
AdvancedDeadMan2003
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 3:53 PM
I installed Protowall a few days ago. The list of IP's in my log that I have so far been blocked is astounding. From the Italian Financial Police to Sony Corporation to you name it. There are literally 100's of interests out there scanning the P2P networks and monitoring what you are downloading and sharing. And those are just the ones we are aware of from those working on IP blocklists. Who's to say how many interests are scanning who we don't know about. Who's to say what they are doing with that information.

Privacy? There is none on the internet. No matter what data you are sending and recieving. No matter how well encrypted. There are organisations out there trying to look at it.

Big brother is already here and has been for some time.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 3:59 PM
I agree...and btw, props to bluetack and seraphielx for protowall...
DMemberkas95
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:00 PM
a friend of mine downloaded pron on accident one time looking for the anal cunt cd
but i guess that was his own fault
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:01 PM
Comp...I'm really not trying to argue with you...but, I just gave the smallest sampling of what is going on out there....I could literally fill reams of paper with what is going on out there, and I am very very concerned about all this...and this is not said for effect or hyperbole...we ARE losing our country my friend...and to state that is just a direct translation of what is being reported in the headlines all around this country.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:03 PM
Comp...if you want, write me a private email on this.
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:03 PM
that's not my point. and has nothing to do with what I was saying
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:07 PM
I guess I don't get the point, but I don't want to keep the back and forth on a public thread....so, if you still have concerns, drop me a line..otherwise, I have to move on.
~CW
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:07 PM
I'm just going to drop it for now. I've got projects I'm working on that'll hopefully help do what I was refering to. and some other ideas.
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:07 PM
agreed
DMembermarxgrrl
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:08 PM
Remember that John Kerry's campaign is funded by the same capitalists that fund the Bush campaign. Kerry, like Bush, will never stand up for the rights of the American people, because he is the pawn of those that want the people's rights to be violated.

Bill Van Auken is the ONLY candidate that believes that ALL Americans, indeed ALL of the people all over the world should have, in fact MUST HAVE their rights protected. http://www.wsws.org
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:08 PM
I'll let you know when my new video is done. should be in the next few days
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:09 PM
last note...since they put up a new graphic with the thread, I have to echo the lawyer, Mr. Welch's comment that almost singlehandedly, marked the end of McCarthyism..but I tailor it to Sherman...

"Mr. Sherman, at long last, have you no sense of decency. Have you no shame sir?"
:) (Smile)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:10 PM
cool...you still rock and roll my friend :) (Smile)
DMembermarxgrrl
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:11 PM
To learn about the Socialist Equality Party and its views concerning this issue, check out http://www.wsws.org/sections/category/news/sc-net.shtml
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:12 PM
maybe so marxgrrl, but he doesn't have a chance in hades of winning. And Bush MUST go.
DMembermarxgrrl
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:12 PM
Here is an excellent article concerning intellectual property:
http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/dec1998/soft-d02.shtml
Intellectual property and computer software
By Kevin Reed
You may not be aware of it, but the software package you just paid hundreds of dollars for and installed on your hard disk isn't really yours. You don't even own the manual that just replaced that old dictionary on your bookshelf. In fact, all you've gotten for your money is a licence to use the program and, if you're lucky, the right to make one copy of it for archival purposes.

If you examine the fine print on the envelope containing the installation disks, it probably reads something like this: "This software and accompanying manuals (herein referred to as the Product) are owned by Software Corp. X and are protected by US and international copyright laws. Your right to use the Product terminates automatically if you violate any part of this Licence. In the event of termination, you must immediately destroy all copies of the Product or return them to Software Corp. X."

These licence agreements come with all computer programs today. Even though nothing was signed, a user is bound by this agreement upon opening the packaging which contains the software. A violation can carry fines of up to $20,000 per infringement.

Software licence agreements are an important part of capitalist private property rights in the information age. By using laws such as copyright, the owners of software companies seek, however unsuccessfully, to prevent the unauthorised duplication of their programs.

But the legal framework of intellectual property rights which copyright is based on was developed in the age of printing more than 500 years ago. With the penetration of digital technology into every aspect of society, these laws have been severely undermined and rendered virtually obsolete.

There is fierce debate within the corporate world and the courts over which laws, copyright or patent, apply to computer software, and to what extent they protect the individual or company which produces a program. Mega-corporations are battling the issue out in a global scramble for markets and profits. Billions are at stake in the outcome of the legal controversy.


What are intellectual property rights?

In the United States intellectual property was protected by the drafters of the Constitution in 1787 when they adopted a clause which empowered Congress "to promote the progress of sciences and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries."

The two most common types of intellectual property are patent and copyright. Patent is the right to make, use or sell a particular application of an idea. A patent does not mean the right to own the principles upon which an invention is based but the novel, non-obvious and useful application of those principles. For example, the photo-electric effect is not patentable, but the design of a particular photo-voltaic cell may be.

Similarly, copyright is the right to make copies of a particular expression of an idea. A copyright does not give an author ownership of the subject matter, but rather, his particular way of explaining this material. An author who writes a book on the Civil War has a copyright to his unique verbal creation, not to all books about the subject.

The boundaries within which intellectual property is recognised are much more difficult to establish than ownership of tangible property. But they have a long history in capitalist law.

Intellectual property rights emerged along with the capitalist class itself. The technological innovations that developed with trade and commerce at the end of the Middle Ages made necessary government regulations to protect the rights of the inventor to his original creation. Patents began as a historically progressive measure which cultivated the development of new technology.

The demand for rights to original ideas was driven further by the invention of printing in 1450. Here a creator could lose control of his invention because his ideas could be recorded on paper and easily duplicated and the works of authors were easy to print. Out of the demand for rights to authorship came the copyright.

The publication of books had a tremendous effect on literacy and the availability of ideas and information. As the market for such materials developed and their revolutionary political impact was felt, copyright became a means of regulating the market and a tool of censorship for those in power.

Prior to printing there could have been no concept of copyright because all information existed in the form of hand-written manuscripts which were considered sacred. Since everything was transcribed by monks, the issue of personal authorship was irrelevant.

In the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, information technologies such as telegraph, radio and television developed in relative harmony with existing intellectual property laws. This was because control of these powerful technologies, like printing in the earlier period, remained restricted to a minority of wealthy owners.

The development of photocopiers and video and audio tape machines began the process of decentralisation of information technologies by reducing the cost of creation and copying. This placed new strains upon existing laws. With computer technology, which has put instantaneous dissemination and exact copying of information into the hands of tens of millions of people, legal concepts such as author or inventor have little or no meaning. This problem is particularly evident when examining computer software.


What is computer software?

While it might appear easy for a programmer or a user to define software, this technology does not fit readily into the existing categories of capitalist law. By their nature as both "inventions" and "writings," computer programs are pushing the centuries-old distinction between patent and copyright.

A computer program is an invention because it is an original application of a series of codes, electronic expressions of 0s and 1s, and executes a specific function. But it is also a writing because it is an idea in the form of written symbols and words.

But the US government, in the service of the software corporations, has tried to define this hybrid and contradictory technology according to one or the other of its sides--either invention or writing--so as to make it fall under the legal protection of either patent or copyright laws.

Initial attempts by software companies to obtain patents failed because a computer program's function is reducible to a mathematical algorithm, which is not patentable. But by 1981 the US Patent and Trademark Office began granting patents for "software-related inventions."

Meanwhile an amendment to the US Copyright Act was passed in 1980 that defined software as "a set of statements or instructions to be used directly or indirectly in a computer in order to bring about a certain result." This decision was made against opposition from experts hired by the government to study the question. Among them were noted authors who argued that a program was not a "writing" in the sense intended by the US Constitution.

Since the early 1980s copyright and patent laws have been used in a host of litigations between software companies over who owns the right to programs. Out of these conflicts, new and ever more bizarre legal concepts have emerged.

One of the best known suits was filed by Apple Computer in 1988 against Microsoft and Hewlett-Packard. Apple argued that the "look and feel" of its Desktop software was stolen by the others. In 1993 the case was thrown out by a US judge on the grounds that granting Apple the rights to GUIs (graphical user interfaces) would "afford too much protection and yield too little competition."

Such a decision, as usual, is based upon what best serves American big business as an international competitor, not on who actually created the interface. Unnecessary restrictions on software development, like copyrighting GUIs, would undermine the ability of US firms to dominate world trade. In 1988 the US controlled 70 percent of the world software market, which totalled about $50 billion.


Social products vs. private property

Opponents of software ownership rights have long argued for a community of programmers in which all the tools and products are shared resources. For example, The League for Programming Freedom published a document in 1990 called "Against User Interface Copyright," which said, "Anything which impedes standardisation impedes the social penetration of the technology." But the issue is not simply one of a better means for standardisation.

Computer programs are complex social products and not simply the result of any individual's work. The computerisation of society could make possible a future in which the basic needs of every human being can be provided for with a minimum of physical labour and a maximum of automation. Already this revolutionary technology is making its way into all aspects of life, forcing through a rearrangement of social relations on a local, national and world scale.

Computer technology is able to leap over linguistic, cultural and national barriers. Its collision with existing intellectual property structures, and the legal anomalies which have arisen as a result, are a manifestation in the sphere of law of a more fundamental economic and social problem: the technological development of society is incompatible with the existence of capitalist private property, as well as the national state system within which capitalism has historically developed.

The vast potential of computer technology is subordinated by the handful of software industry giants to one overriding goal--the amassing of huge fortunes. One notable example is Microsoft Chairman William Gates, who played a significant role in the emergence of the personal computer. He has become one of the richest men in America, with a reported personal wealth of over $6 billion.

There are scores of such electronic inventor-author-entrepreneurs who dominate the industry and regard the subservience of this powerful instrument of human technology to their personal gain as a matter of course. Could it be otherwise under capitalism at the end of the twentieth century?

The myopic greed of men like Gates is in contrast to the character of great inventors from previous periods. In the 1740s, when capitalism was emerging as the economic and social framework for a revolutionary advance in man's productive forces, Ben Franklin explained why he turned down an offer from the Governor of Pennsylvania to patent the Franklin stove. He said, "I declin'd from a Principle which has weighed with me on such occasions, vis. That we enjoy great Advantages from the Invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by invention of ours and this we should do freely and generously."

AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:12 PM
Thanks for the link marxgirl :) (Smile)

I'm more the Libertarian/ anarchist myself....

But, as one famous person said... "I don't care who votes or how they vote, I just want to control who COUNTS the votes."
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:14 PM
Hey hey, ho ho...
George W has got to go...
Hey hey, ho ho
Slim Shady Cheney has got to go
Hey hey, ho ho
Rummie the Dummie has got to to!

:) (Smile) I felt like waxing poetic

Code "Anybody but Bush" Warrior :) (Smile)
DMembermarxgrrl
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:15 PM
carla60626:
I see NO difference between Bush and Kerry. I consider BOTH to be equally disgusting. Of course Bush is a walking, smirking disaster of a president, but Kerry will be as well!
DMembermarxgrrl
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:16 PM
CodeWarrior:
"ABB" = AS BAD as BUSH
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:18 PM
At least Kerry is pro-choice and won't appoint reactionaries to the Supreme Court. That's a real concern.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:18 PM
Kerry and Bush are Skull and Bones 66 and 68

They are distant cousins of each other

Kerry is the lesser of two evils..

I like Aaron Russo better...

Third parties are notoriously hard to elect winners from, because of the fear people have of "wasting their vote", meaning, if they vote for anyone but one of the two top contenders, it's the same as a vote for the one they don't want to win....
IntermediateW-B
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:20 PM
And I once again point out . . . at the same time Cash-and-Cary and co. are pushing for this piece of naked (sorry about that) demagoguery, they're also trying to stop a company from manufacturing a DVD player (to be sold via Wal-Mart) that would allow parents to bypass any scenes in Hollyweird films with excessively violent or sexually explicit or profanity-laden content. In that context, such pandering is truly disgusting. Moreover, the Hollyweird establishment's sexualization of children (via the likes of Britney Spears), with eight-year-old girls being enticed to dress like prostitutes and sluts, is much more responsible for kids being increasingly vulnerable to pedophiles, perverts and other similar predators than any kind of technology.

And as I noted several months ago . . . what we're seeing here now is also similar to the witch-hunt that swallowed up the comic-book industry in the 1950's. History repeating itself again and again. Per: http://www.boycott-riaa.com/article/8202 and / or http://news.dmusic.com/article/8202 - still valid today.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:21 PM
Carla is right about that...but, you have to remember that Kerry is a Catholic, but that doesn't mean he would go against the pro-choice stand.

We had another president from Massachusetts, initials JFK, had war experiences on a small military water craft (Profiles in Courage), both have written books...and I believe Kerry once dated the sister of Jackie Kennedy.
DMembermarxgrrl
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:23 PM
carla60626:
If that single issue (admittably an important one) is how you justify supporting Kerry, it proves that you are ignorant.
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:30 PM
No, imo, it proves your are ignorant.
:) (Smile)~~
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:30 PM
The constitution says nothing about having to vote for who you think'll win. I vote for who I think is best even if he gets only 100 votes, then I've done my civic duty. In 1980 John Anderson would've been president if the public voted for who they thought was best. Somewhere between 50 and 60 percent (in a poll taken at that time) said the public would've voted for Anderson If they thought he could win.
I say voting for someone you don't believe in is as much a wasted vote as staying home and not voting
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:31 PM
Gosh, I hate making typos when I call someone ignorant.
YOU ARE ignorant. :) (Smile)
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:33 PM
We talking pragmatism compmore, not the consititution. Yeah, you have the right to vote for whomever you want. But, especially in this dismal time, one's vote is very important and a shame to waste.

Hey, I voted for John Anderson.
DMemberringmaster316ms
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:33 PM
"If a child using this software wants to download a file, he or she can type in an innocent key word and inadvertently download pornography.”

That can happen with internet too, and just like in internet, there are filters available to take care of that.

Code, where are you listening to these hearings from?(honest question)
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:38 PM
Carla so did I. haha.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 4:46 PM
I listend to it at the link at
http://energycommerce.house.gov/108/Hearings/ 05062004hearing1264/hearing.htm
this morning during the live streaming feed.
DMemberekted
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 5:21 PM
Go to google, click Images, type blowjob. 'Nuff said.
IntermediateBufo
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 5:57 PM

agree, ekted. It is easy to get porn on the internet if that is what you really want. I suppose there may be few who would use P2P to get porn, but my guess is that it is more efficient to use google for that purpose.
Intermediatehawk7771
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 6:05 PM
Just type in redhead. My guess is the fbi & jd will just have to go after google next.
DMemberdemonchild
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 6:20 PM
The internet isn't going anywhere, to much money is made by too many corps by it. Although I could see the interenet of the future as more of a shopping mall then a free exchange of ideas.

In order to get rid of kiddie porn on the interent the best thing they can do is to take computers out of hands of catholic priests. That would pry stop about 60% of it.

That stab at the church aside, I am not trying to make light of "child porn", I have a 10 year old son and I know where he is every minute of the day and his computer is right next to mine so I know what hes doing on it. Call me a bit old school but if you hurt a kid you have given up your right to exist, simple enuff I would even be the hangman/switch puller/firing squad/etc and be there will bells on. I am not really interested in rehabilitating pedophiles, its a ways down on my to do list, but this is opening a slippery slope for P2P. What irritates me is how they pushed the "sexuality" of Britney prior to her 18th but now they are claiming the moral high ground??????? I really need an explanation on this one
DMemberBrandonH
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 6:29 PM
John Kerry continues to claim there is nothing wrong with what he is doing. He calling himself a Catholic is like someone saying they are against the RIAA and then going buy some RIAA music. But yes, Bush and Kerry are both taking RIAA money. Both are skull and bones. There are not many differences between the two. I would be happy if neither of them won, but everyone knows one of them will.
Two interesting sites:
http://www.billionairesforbushorkerry.org/ http://www.catholicsagainstkerry.com/

Also, Russo will or won't be the Libertarian Party nominee until the LP Convention, May 27 - 31. Though there are 7 candidates listed on the LP's site, it looks to be a three man race between Russo, Michael Badnarik, and Gary Nolan.
DMemberBrandonH
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 6:33 PM
The priets jokes are getting old. I guess I'm lucky enough not to know any bad priests. By no means am I condoning anything the bad priest have done, but it is 1% that are doing this.

As long as large corporations can get rich from exploiting the sexuality of minors and give money to Congressman, it's completely legal (to them).
DMembergreatscottpr...
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 7:16 PM
I know Aaron Russo and I was his guest speaker on his pilot MAD AS HELL which of course the stations would not pick up because it was about exposing the injustices of the people and I do admire the man but I think every vote for him would be like putting a bullet in our flag & making it easier for the present administration to stay in office. I hope Russo pulls out at the last minute because Kerry's amazing calm manner and expert debating skills are the only thing that will get America back in good graces with the rest of the world in which we must live.

Who the hell is calling those shots against ALL AMERICANS IN A TIME OF ***WAR*** on the F.B.I. anyway??????

Remember when they tried to say smoking Marijuana causes people to turn into a bunch of axe murderers too! Laughing My Arse Off

Unbelievable! Shock
DMemberHammerofJustice
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 7:25 PM
Why should this surprise you its obvious the RIAA and the MPAA can not win this war by suing their customers, so what are they going to do, simple demonize p2p with the help of big brother.
DMemberdemonchild
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 7:30 PM
Hmm I thought of another idiosyncrycy here. When congress was going to step in on the movies and music to regulate them they rushed and came up with the rating system to avoid government interfearance. Yet here they are calling for government regulation on something else instead of actually trying to work with P2P networks.

Oh well shouldn't be suprised but thought it was odd
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 7:34 PM
"I agree...and btw, props to bluetack and seraphielx for protowall"

Not on win98 :( (Frown)
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 8:09 PM
I couldn't get protowall to work on my xp either.
DMemberjeffmorse752
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 8:31 PM
And the biggest pornographers and pirates of
all.. you guessed it: the music industry themselves. What a bunch of lying, hypocritical, fat cat pigopolists they all are!
Advancedcompmore
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 8:35 PM
you guys have given me a fantasick idea for a new project!!! cool I love it. thanks
DMemberstilltrying
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 8:36 PM
Children are expose to PORN everytime they watch an RIAA muscak video
Intermediatesurfside6
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 9:04 PM
Code
why does the posting say:
Posted by CodeWarrior on July 6, 2004 at 11:02 AM

note the date...
Intermediatesurfside6
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 9:05 PM
Are you just slightly ahead of our time???
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 9:16 PM
lol...guess i'm time travelling again like billy pilgrim
DMemberDeliriou5
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 9:28 PM
What I dont get, is how come the RIAA can "so easily" track down someone sharing copy written music, but they cant find the child pornographers. It is as the article says. Its nothing more than a hearing about criminalizing P2P networks.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 9:54 PM
Good point Delirou5.

Why do they even need to go through all this trouble about child pron? Why not just track them down the same way as the "pirates"?
Intermediateboggieman
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 9:59 PM
What will the government do when the time comes that they find they must jail millions of people in jails and prisons that are now overcrowded? I suppose they will release the murderers,rapists and molesters to make way for P2P users? Thats smart I'd say.......
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 10:02 PM
I think if it was widely believed that they were going to finger the people downloading pr0n on the internet...lots of congressional brows would be sweating bullets.

during the witch trials of salem, they had professional witch finders who often insisted on stripping the accused female witches naked and searching for "the Mark of Satan" which could be hid ANYWHERE on the body.

Those involved in witch hunts are often the most guilty, the most evil folks you would ever meet.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 10:04 PM
boggieman, you're right...remember, the FBI isn't focussing on rapists and murderers...their priorities officially are
1) Terrorism
2) Counterintelligence
3) Intellectual property protection....

WTF? doesn't this list look slightly screwed up?

What's number four, chasing down people that tear the tag off their mattress?
AdvancedLachatte
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 10:09 PM
Wouldn't selling a mattress without a tag be more in line with what some of those ill-informed women on the panel could address?
Advancedmtekk
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 10:10 PM
Govt: What should we do with KaZaA?
ppl: Crucify it
RIAA: Eh?
ppl: Crucify the RIAA, Crucify them, kill 'em all, and let them take KaZaA back to hell with them.

I can't wait 'tell KaZaA is no more, KaZaA sux so much anyways. I'll really fight for Shareaza and GnucDNA, but KaZaA can't possibly stay king for much longer, their time is up.
IntermediateDreddsnik
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 10:56 PM
huh ?
DMemberJusticeForAll
Date: May 6, 2004 @ 11:56 PM
I guess the first thing we as boycotters need to do is CALM DOWN. Remain cool. Just remember that the RIAA is fighting tooth and nail because they're dying. This is to be expected.

Just because congresspeople say 'legislation is coming' DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S GOING TO PASS. After this war versus the RIAA ends and the smoke clears, WE WILL KEEP OUR RIGHTS. We will prevail.

WE THE PEOPLE will ultimately have the last say - or those congresspeople WILL lose their jobs. And we will do everything in OUR power to ensure that this will happen.

Maybe we need a new thread especially for pep talk - to keep our morale up and running.
DMemberLetLightShine
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 12:12 AM

carla60626 wrote: "At least Kerry is pro-choice . . . "

Comment: Actually, EVERYBODY should be in favor of having a "choice" to live or not, even those unable to speak for themselves (including unborn babies); it's a scientific fact that they exhibit characteristics of life -- viable brainwave patterns, sensitivity to pain, heartbeat, etc.; and even though they can't live independently yet, neither can a newborn infant. If I'm missing something in my logic here, please feel free to point it out.
The U.S. Constitution speaks of rights -- "the right to life, liberty, ...." The issue should be simple: Do we accept these words, or don't we?
DMemberLetLightShine
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 12:20 AM
BACK ON TOPIC: JusticeForAll wrote:
"Maybe we need a new thread especially for pep talk -- to keep our morale up and running."

Agreed; great idea! I need that. We all do.
(Thanks.)
Advancedmroop
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 1:17 AM
"Hey, I voted for John Anderson."

I smoked pot with John Anderson's daughter. : )
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 2:30 AM
mroop.. for shame.. ;) (Wink)
Otherindependentm...
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 7:01 AM
"The RIAA wants a monopoly over the kiddie porn market too."

Yup, says it all right there.

Fucking corporate copyright fascist bastards!
Otherindependentm...
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 7:07 AM
"The internet isn't going anywhere, to much money is made by too many corps by it. Although I could see the interenet of the future as more of a shopping mall then a free exchange of ideas."

And very very sadly, this is the ONLY reason we stand a chance of keeping the Internet ... because the CORPORATIONS who make $$$ from it.

Why are our rights and freedoms always predicated on the ability of some conglomerates ability to make a buck?

We are not a nation ruled by a government of the people... we are a government ruled by the CORPORATIONS!

When in the course of human events...
AdvancedLachatte
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 7:44 AM
Yesterday, an article about the two computer science professors at the University of Tulsa who got a patent for screwing up p2p...I e-mailed the contact person at the site and got this reply:
At 09:25 AM 5/6/2004 -0400, you wrote:
Dear Mr. Olsen,
Your article says that " A report last year estimated that $700 million was lost in CD sales due to P2P piracy. "
What report?

"I was told the report was by Forrester Research. "

Question this morning: Who is Forrester?

AdvancedLachatte
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 8:30 AM
I searched for Forrester.
Here's a link to an May, 2001 article in the Register with a prediction by Forrester Research. I think it's important to know who gives the RIAA and people like Joe Pitts their information, because after listening to some of that hearing yesterday, it's clear that few panelists understood what was being discussed.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/05/18/death_of_web_inevitable/
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 8:31 AM
LLShine: yeah, well, cockroaches and dogs feel pain, have brain waves, etc..
Sorry, women's lives win out over fetuses every time in my opinion. It's a woman's choice. If you don't want an abortion, don't have one.
AdvancedLachatte
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 8:39 AM
Here's another article about Forrester Research from The Register. Last year, Forrester concluded that mp3's were good for the music industry! You can't read the Forrester document unless you pay $ 349.00.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/08/16/mp3s_are_good_for_music/
AdvancedLachatte
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 8:43 AM
carla, I agree with you. A woman needs to make that choice for herself. We don't need laws that would prohibit that choice.
Otherindependentm...
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 8:49 AM
I choose to abort the RIAA.
AdvancedLachatte
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 8:55 AM
Correction: It was a 2002 report by Forrester Research. "Forrester attributes the 15 per cent slump in music sales to a number of other factors. The economy is in a slump, there's much more competition from games, from DVDs - which saw an 80 per cent rise in sales - and most interestingly - from the "limited playlists" rotated by commercial US radio stations.

Forrester notes that one company, ClearChannel controls 60 per cent of radio, so new artists don't get the opportunity to be heard.

"Playlists are very short," it notes.

And that's how the Recording Industry of America Association (RIAA), the music Pigopolists' trade association, likes it. It has lobbied hard to tighten its grip on alternative promotional channels recently, forcing many small webcasters off the air by imposing royalties that traditional radio stations don't have to pay.

Forrester is upbeat about the industry's prospects - if only they were smart enough to embrace downloads. But Forrester concludes that it is essential that citizens have variety - "more than two or three labels worth of choice" - and that their right to control music, to copy and burn it, is preserved.

"Labels have to stop focussing on distribution, and concentrate on promotion, and new accounting systems," says Bernoff.
"There's a chance that labels can monetize peer-to-peer networks," he adds. "

How many of the members of that subcommittee are regular MTV viewers? Probably none.
So if they wanted to find sexually explicit material quickly, they could turn on their TV's and see what the RIAA is feeding the children.
If it's all about protecting the children, why do our legislators protect the RIAA?
If 40% of the people on p2p sites are children, why doesn't Joe Pitts try to protect them from the RIAA who is suing them?
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 9:04 AM
Carla, in many ways, the anti-abortion folks use the same "Big Lie" tactics as the RIAA. The BEST term for the contents of the womb from conception to partuition, is "CONCEPTUS" because, unlike zygot, embryo, fetus, etc., it is not stage related.

About 30 years ago, there was an MD who was the "scientific expert" for the anti-Choice side.

I managed to find his personal address and wrote him a letter, positing to him that the contents of the womb is an obligate , endogneous parasite to the point of viability.

I had full references for everything I said. He responded in a letter to me that, although he could not refute anything I said, he "preferred not to think of the baby in those terms".

The misuse the words "child" and "baby". Both of these are generally post-partuitional terms, meaning, until birth, you really should not use the word child, but, people do anyway, in the same way they use "pirate" instead of alleged copyright infringer.

This "protect life" nonsense is spouted by people who support war and state supported executions. The "protect life" as George Carlin says in one of his routines, is something they don't practice with regard to bacteria, viruses, cancer cells, rats, fleas, fungi, algae, weeds...and on and on and on.

There are human cells which can be viable outside the body, which have human DNA. One strain of these is the HeLa strain. This strain was obtained from Henrietta Lacks, who died in 1951.

Her viable cells live in labs all around the world...they are human cells...guess what...they are CANCER CELLS.
Are the pro-life folks ok with not killing human life in the form of cancer cells?
LOL....no, they are at their very core,
hypocritical.

Read more about the HeLa strain...
http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/LabWork/lacks/lacks1.htm
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 9:29 AM
meant zygote...not zygot...

Code, the typo king :) (Smile)
Otherindependentm...
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 9:30 AM
Hot button non-RIAA related issue alert!

(Hey, let's not drive away the 'pro-life' folks. I will admit that I myself agree with the pro-choice stance the majority of the time, but this really is NOT something we should divide and conqure ourselves with here. Same as the Republicrat and Demoblican thang.)

With our issues, we need to reach out across the isle to each other. We can fight with each other about the other "hot button" things elsewhere.

Things are getting scarry enough without us sidetracking on non related stuff when we are fighting for music and copyright issues.

Just my humble opine. :) (Smile)
(actually, I believe you should say what you want to say wherever you feel like saying it!)

Shmoo
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 9:30 AM
Do you log ip's of hits on this site? I wonder who reads it.
Otherindependentm...
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 9:31 AM
zy got the picture Code.

(CodeWarrior for prez!)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 9:54 AM
:) (Smile) you're right Shmoo..and after I hit the button, it was too late to take back...I get angry about the issue because, I am consistent on my views.

To me, the anti-choice side is trying to impose their views on those who are pro-choice, and want to restrict their freedom of choice...so, my platform
is pro-freedom, and I never appreciate seeing poor ladies seeking medical care to terminate a pregancy, being accosted by people trying to humiliate them or drive them away from seeking a medical procedure.

We would not allow that for people who don't want people getting their teeth worked on, and camping outside dental offices.
-------------------------
Carla...I do not know about logging IPs...our webmaster could answer that.

On my personal sites, I do log IPs, and on many of them, I do have a notice'
that says to visitors, IP addresses are logged.

Was there any specific reason for the question?
~CW

ps..if it is something you wanna discuss off the board...
send me a note at
codewarrior_wins(at)yahoo.com
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 9:59 AM
george carlin speaks out (warning...george carlin uses colorful words :) (Smile) )
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 10:01 AM
In his 1996 or 1997 Album, BACK IN TOWN...George Carlin goes into detail about HIS views on the issue. I agree completely with George Carlin.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 10:04 AM
George Carlin asks "How Come when it's us it's an abortion and when it's a chicken, it's an omlette?"
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 10:07 AM
I meant to insert a link to the earlier deal about Carlin, but it didn't go through. Google searches will find it. I don't want to sidetrack the discussion, so, I hope I didn't offend any anti-abortion/anti-choice folks...
I don't say "pro-life" because of what I expressed in my earlier statement, in that they do not defend "all life"...just certain kinds of life, and for a certain pre-partuitional period.
DMemberBrandonH
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 10:13 AM
If you don't want to be pregant, don't get pregnant.

While I will admit there are pro-lifers who will lie and stretch the truth, the anti-lifers far more crooked.

Planned Parenthood is a non-profit organization, yet they make a ton of money off of providing this "service". They also do not mention other options that would be available because they do not make as much money. In the event that they believe a crime has been committed (a 15 year old pregant from her 20 year old boyfriend), they do whatever they can to cover up the fact.

http://www.silentscream.org/

I also find it disturbing that one could have more compassion for a convicted killer, than a child, whether it be born or unborn. For the record, I think the death penalty should only be used in exreme circumstances and is used way too often.

Not everyone falls into the two general sterotypes either. (Conservative: pro-life, pro-death penalty, pro-gun; Liberal: pro-choice, anti-death penalty, gun control.)

And if you want to compare the pro-lifers to the RIAA, just look at this list. Strange how all the anti-life music artists listed here are RIAA. http://www.lifenews.com/nat444.html

And for the record, I was not the one who brought abortion into this discussion. I do try to avoid bringing the issue up since, as indepedent musician mentioned, we have people on both sides and it divides us while we are supposed to be united against the RIAA.
Otherindependentm...
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 10:24 AM
see, this is what I was talking about... if we bring in side issues that we DON'T agree on, we will get all in a tiff and bicker about them and be divided and conquered.

:( (Frown)

Take it OUTSIDE (please?)
Advancedcarla60626
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 10:29 AM
Arriving at work...ok, I will desist from discussing the topic (I believe it originally arose regarding the presidential election).

Code, I asked about the IP's because I wondered if RIAA people (and who knows who else) monitor this site.
Otherindependentm...
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 10:54 AM
Of course the RIAA watches us closely.
What I hope (and have seen some evidence of, giving me MORE hope) is that a few of the congress members ALSO keep tabs on us.

WE NEED to be seen.

Shmoo
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 10:57 AM
I agree with Shmoo...and it's find Brandon gave his input as well, but Shmoo is right...and I do think if we wish to discuss the hot button issues, they need to be done outside this site...

I agree with Shmoo that the RIAA probably does visit here....

I know that some of the record producers/copyright owners do.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 11:02 AM
I'm sure they keep tabs on me because I have several sites outside this one, as well as discussion boards...

My latest thing is to call Cary Sue by the Hebrew term " Ish-Beshoth" ...or "man of shame" in conjuntion with...
"Mr. Sherman, at long last, have you no sense of decency? Have you no shame , sir?"
DMemberCantido
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 11:12 AM
What should we do? What should I do? I'm starting to get worried.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 11:17 AM
meant, fine, not find
DMemberLetLightShine
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 5:16 PM
[topic: political candidates and the "right" of human abortion]
 
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 8:31 AM
arla60626
(message to LetLightShine): Yeah, well, cockroaches and dogs feel pain, have brain waves, heartbeats, etc...

Response from LetLlightShine: Sorry. My gosh, I had been harboring a false assumption that human life has more instrinsic value than other life forms! Silly me!
DMemberLetLightShine
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 5:20 PM

typo: "arla60626" should have been "carla60626".
DMemberLetLightShine
Date: May 7, 2004 @ 5:28 PM

Okay, I'll let the subject die -- after I say that the "pro-choice" concept is well-suited for the pregnant mother-to-be, but how about the poor unborn baby not getting a choice? I guess it doesn't deserve a chance. . .

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