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Pentagon angered by photos from military mortuary
Posted by AdminCodeWarrior in on April 23, 2004 at 10:51 AM



NOTE-THIS ARTICLE HAS NO "KNOWN" RIAA TIES...

[Ed. Note- The website which showed the photos is :
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/coffin_photos/, and this morning, was offline.
An Australian site with the pics, http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/22/1082616268111.html , was also offline today.

You can see a couple at :
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-pictures23apr23,1,1947996.story?coll=la-home-headlines But, that page may not be up long, given the other sites going offline that have the pictures.

If you look the site up on Google, and click the "cached" version, you can see some of the pictures.]
====================================================================================

"DOVER, Delaware (AP) -- A Web site published dozens of photographs of American war dead arriving at the nation's largest military mortuary, prompting the Pentagon to order an information clampdown Thursday.

The photographs were released last week to First Amendment activist Russ Kick, who had filed a Freedom of Information Act request to receive the images.

Air Force officials initially denied the request but decided to release the photos after Kick appealed their decision.

After Kick posted more than 350 photographs on his Web site, the Defense Department barred the further release of the photographs to media outlets.

"They're not happy with the release of the photos," Dover Air Force base spokesman Col. Jon Anderson said.

The photos were taken at the Dover base -- home to the mortuary -- and most of the images are of flag-draped coffins.

Defense Department rules prohibit media coverage of human remains arriving at Dover, and Pentagon spokesman Lt. Col. Gary Keck said release of the mortuary photos appears to be in conflict with department policy.

Defense officials said the purpose of the policy is to protect the privacy of the soldiers' families -- not to circumvent or violate the Freedom of Information Act or any other law.

"Quite frankly, we don't want the remains of our service members who have made the ultimate sacrifice to be the subject of any kind of attention that is unwarranted or undignified," said John Molino, a deputy undersecretary of defense.

At a rally in Dover last month, war protesters criticized President Bush for continuing the practice of previous administrations of not allowing the public or media to witness the arrival of remains at the base.

"We need to stop hiding the deaths of our young; we need to be open about their deaths;," said Jane Bright of West Hills, California, whose 24-year-old son, Evan Ashcraft, was killed in combat in July.

Telephone and e-mail messages to Kick were not immediately returned Thursday.

In a related incident, a cargo worker was fired Wednesday by a military contractor after her photograph of flag-draped coffins bearing the remains of U.S. soldiers was published on the front page of Sunday editions of The Seattle Times.

Tami Silicio, 50, was fired by Maytag Aircraft Corp. after military officials raised concerns about the photograph taken in Kuwait, said William L. Silva, Maytag president."
source of the article
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/04/22/mortuary.photos.ap/index.html


User Comments

AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 12:25 PM
That's pretty sick that he exploited US soldiers to further his cause. If he's such a radical first amendment activist, then he won't mind me demanding his credit card information. Or maybe it's possible that everything has limits and that all extremists are morons.

Sorry, I'm supporting the Pentagon on this one.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 12:26 PM
correction: he exploited dead US soldiers.
DMemberhbkfan
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 12:29 PM
I see nothing wrong with showing the photographs. We need to put images with the words. We need to see the cost of an illegal war. And those soldiers deserve better than to be carted off a plane, given a mass service, and buried with no recognition.
DMemberstevebugge
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 12:31 PM
The fact that the media is actively pursuing these photos speaks more to me than the fact the Air Force was reluctant to hand them over. Honestly if I had been killed in action and the first civilians to view my coffin had been some media hack who then published photos or video, especially before the remains were returned to my family I'd be really hot. What is it about us anyway that we always want to see the worst news first? Look at the lead stories on the news it's always the fire, the massive car wreck, the casualties in the war.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 12:41 PM
stevebugge, I agree that it speaks about the media. But I question their intent. Obviously ratings are always the goal, but that may very well be their only motivation, meaning the media would be exploiting them as well.

hbkfan,

They're still people. I don't see you posting pictures of your dead grandma's mangled body in the name of freedom of information. Would you if she died in a war? Your brother's body, or your best friend's? If you would, I think you are in the minority. Just let them rest.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 12:48 PM
The photos I've seen are just standard coffins, draped with flags...you can't tell one from the other....one that struck me was a big warehouse with flag draped coffins, one after the other...extending down a long straight line....

You had to force yourself to understand each of those carries someone's child,brother,father,mother, uncle, friend, sister, etc....otherwise,
they look like flag covered boxes in a warehouse.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 1:13 PM
I know it is sad and a shocking image. Still, very very few Americans have died in this war. In an actual war (not a stomping), like WWII or the Korean War, there'd be a warehouse full of coffins for every coffin in this picture.

This doesn't contribute to my argument at all, I'm just mentioning it.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 1:15 PM
freaking typos. "..relatively very very few Americans." It wouldn't be so bad if i didn't leave out entire words. i'm done now.
RockgdZiemann
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 1:17 PM
Was the RIAA involved in this somehow? I seem to have missed that part.
DMembersteve82
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 1:22 PM
"Honestly if I had been killed in action and the first civilians to view my coffin had been some media hack who then published photos or video, especially before the remains were returned to my family I'd be really hot."

No, you'd be dead. Techinally, you'd be cold.
AdvancedLachatte
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 1:24 PM
No, George, you didn't miss anything... It's the news of the day. Very sad news.
Sherminator, I take issue: Too many Americans have already died or have been maimed in this war.
AdvancedLachatte
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 1:27 PM
I agree with Code. I saw boxes draped in flags, like the one that covered my cousin's coffin. I thought it showed careful, respectful, handling of the bodies of dead soldiers.
Rockjeddak
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 1:40 PM
Yes, the truth is disturbing. Better stifle it as much as we can.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 1:54 PM
They may have been and we don't know George...they're tricky that way!
DMemberscottjw
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 1:57 PM
Good grief, there is no way to identify people from these pictures, so why is this a big deal? If I was killed in combat and my coffin was in one of these pictures, I'd feel honored to be represented. I see no reason why photos like these can't be an honor to the service these individuals gave. To try and censor them simply because they are pictures of coffins is absolutely ridiculous. Are we now supposed to be ashamed of the men and women who die in the service of their country? That is sort of the message being sent.

These are not pictures of bodies Sherminator... so if you really wanted a picture of my grandma's coffin, and I had one, why not let you have it? I have no reason to be ashamed. She is dead now, and whether or not you know that fact or have seen her coffin does not change anything. It is not a disrespect to the dead... when presented in a respectful manner.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 1:58 PM
Some believe the gov is trying to hide the numbers of dead soldiers are coming home.
DMemberstevebugge
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 2:02 PM
Jeddak

This isn't really about stifling the truth. I think most people are well aware that there have been a little over 600 soldiers killed in the conflict. No one is claiming that there have been fewer casualties. There is a dispute in this country over if this war is worth the 600+ casualties, which in my opinon is a judgement that we aren't able to rationally make yet since 1. the war isn't over and the results aren't in yet and 2. since the war isn't over the final cost isn't in either. So then what is the goal in showing these photos? As the Sherminator said earlier: to sell copy. The media may also be trying to stir up emotional antiwar sentiment.
DMemberstevebugge
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 2:05 PM
Actually George I can think of one relation. The Media and the RIAA will do just about anything to sell one more newspaper or one more CD, including things lots of people find distasteful. Oh and apparently both are willing to trample peoples privacy to do so.
DMemberdemonchild
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 2:09 PM
I think this is disgusting beyond words. How about we start showing the people who die from cancer so we can show the ill effects of smoking, or how about those that die from car/motorcycle accidents so we can see the dangers of drinking and driving or reckless driving, OD cases so we can see the evils of drug use. My uncle died from agent orange exposure we coulda showed that to enforce how bad chemical weapons are. Maybe we should just show every single funeral in the country with an explanation of how they died so we can all be well informed. Think about it do you want someone taking pictures of your dead child to further his politcal cause.

If it was just a matter of showing them pulling the coffins off the plane then I would pry be ok with it but my issue comes when its used politically one way or the other.
DMemberstevebugge
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 2:16 PM
Demon, they do do that, I had to watch some pretty grissly videos in drivers ed at age 15 that showed among other things a decapitated corpse from an underride collision with a semi and 4 burning bodies in a burning SUV from an alcohol related accident. And I agree with you it's disresepctful to the dead particularly so without the permission of surviving family.
DMemberhbkfan
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 2:19 PM
TheSherminator -- Good points in that, comparitively speaking, the number of people that have died is less than other wars/skirmishes/etc.

But it does add a human face. Example: At the gum the other day, one of the women waiting to get in was complaining because they interupted her "American Idol" with a tornado warning for a city in the area. She was raising a big fuss about it.

My point is, people here still aren't getting the message of how the Iraq situation is being handled. We get a constant barrage of numbers but never really get to associate it with a face. We need to have a more human look to this war so we can start thinking about the real reasons for it.

Oh, and death to the RIAA!!!! :) (Smile)
DMemberdemonchild
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 2:27 PM
stevebugge - I understand that it is done but not on the nightly news. I have seen the 'Red Asphalt' style movies and they have a purpose. My issue here is that its the media for no other reason other then either they want to show them or because they don't want to be the only ones not showing them.

We have become a society of rubber neckers and it scares me. I am not sure if its morbid curiousity or the 'Oh thank god that isn't me' mentality but either way it isn't good.
DMemberairider
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 2:28 PM
Everyone,

I don't know if the coffins are the problem per se, it's more that our dead service members were on display before they were even seen by their loved ones. That's the issue the military has with it. They take very careful means (usually) to ensure the families get all the info first, before it's available to the public and this is done out of respect for the service members sacrifice and the families. There wasn't any personally identifiable info about who was in any coffin which was good, but the basic premise and policy always puts the family first.

If you can't understand that, or don't want to understand that, fine.

Let's get back to bashing the RIAA either way!!!
DMemberstevebugge
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 2:31 PM
HBK

I'm not sure attaching a human face will help with "thinking" about it, it really would add an extra counterrational emotional element, not that emotional attachment isn't valid. There is a lot of information that needs to be released, volumes of theoretical material to be considered, Intelligence that probably shouldn't be entirely released (if it were it would cause other people to be killed very likely). This won't happen, because it doesn't fit neatly in a 3 minute news segment. If it did happen very few people would watch it because the would rather watch American Idle or something like that.
DMemberBaldrocker
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 2:39 PM
Osama bin Laden's "letter to the American people" is rather long, so I’m have lifted the pertinent points.

What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you [if you are not a Muslim, then this means you-BR].
(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.
(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.
(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.
(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington. [In other words, let the Sudan alone – BR].
(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.
If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]
The Nation of honour and respect:
"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]
"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be superior (in victory) if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]
The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:
"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]
The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:
"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9 (Lick)]
"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]
The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.
If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

The disagreement that we have is with OBL, and he hates any music that is not a muslem hymn. I thank God that we have brave soldiers that will stand in the way of this madman and what we believe.


War does not determine who is right or wrong, only who survives.
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 2:51 PM
Having a son who is over in Iraq I would like to say that this is not a political issue. My son is very proud of what he's doing there and would be greatly offended if his coffin (flag drapped or open) were displayed for a political reason against what he believes in. I'm proud of what he's doing there as well. We can hate Bush, Hate the War and wave the peace symbol all we want, to exploit the dead for this reason is disgusting and I'll never support it.
WorldIndierockgal
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 3:40 PM
I don't want to see the pics and i really don't want to see the media get off on it for political reasons or just their own enjoyment. Right or wrong the Country was attacked by Osama Bin Laden in which he declared in his fatwa to kill Americans military and civilian alike. Lets give the brave men fighting this war and their families the dignity and privacy they deserve. Funny point I have to add that a Pigmedia who enjoys these kind of "Gotcha" moments none have served their country but are great to exploit others who are. The media slugs are nothing but Shameless cowards. The only warb they know how to fight are against 80 and 12 year old filesharers.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 4:18 PM
"Demon, they do do that, I had to watch some pretty grissly videos in drivers ed at age 15 that showed among other things a decapitated corpse from an underride collision..."

Education is different than exploitation.

We certainly do need a more "human" take on the war. But not at the expense of exploiting the deceased as if they weren't human. He doesn't realize his own hypocrisy.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 4:39 PM
I say.......

FIGHT ALL THOSE WHO WOULD DEPRIVE US OF OUR RIGHTS AND FREEDOM....
THE RIAA WANTS A PIECE OF THAT....BRING IT ON...
ANYONE ELSE WANTS TO DEPRIVE ME AND MINE OF OUR RIGHTS,PRIVACY,
AND FREEDOMS...BRING IT ON....!!!!!

~cw
DMemberHammerofJustice
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 4:40 PM
Hell, I am torn between this one, on the one hand, exploiting the deaths of soldiers for publicity, politics, ect, is completely wrong. On the other hand, it does show one of the terrible consequences of war.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 4:41 PM
The one main question I've asked for 51 years is this....

Why can't everyone just leave everybody else the hell alone?????????????????????
DMemberstevebugge
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 4:55 PM
Code, it's because we're human
DMemberstevebugge
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 5:03 PM
To expand on that last one a little bit.

Everyone is unique, has their own beliefs, and their own way of dealing with beliefs that differ. In the end though most people are fairly convinced that the beliefs they hold are correct, no matter how much others may disagree with them. When two people have beliefs that they hold strongly and have a verbal conflict it's an argument or a debate, with nations it's diplomacy or negotiations. When two individuals come to blows over differing beliefs it's a fight, when nations (or regions) it's a war.
DMemberBaldrocker
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 5:06 PM
Check the Drudge Report. Seems as if the pictures that are getting the most attention are the coffins of the space shuttle crew.

DMemberdemonchild
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 5:45 PM
Hmm I do find something interesting about this discussion in relation to the purpose of this site also.

One of the key issues that is raised here in relation to the RIAA is privacy (2nd to freedom I think) but doesn't showing these coffins violate that most basic right that we all want and desire for ourselves? and we see discussions of here day in and day out? If we can't respect the privacy of dead soldiers why would we think there will be any respect of privacy for the living?

I agree with Code though, I wish people would just learn to leave each other be and worry about thier own gardens before trying to tend to someone elses. I am all for arguements and debates but as long people can't agree to disagree then we will have an issue. (This only works as long as neither party is causing harm to another of course, that is a whole different ball of wax).
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 6:06 PM
My father was a veteran, and his funeral had the American flag draped over his coffin, and at the graveside service, they folded up the flag in triangular shape and handed it to my mother.

People may find lots wrong with me, but I've always had respect for service men and women. I think seeing the coffins helps us remember that each of those brave men and women gave the ultimate price for their country...they paid the price so we could be here, using this freedom of speech.

So, I think it honors them that we see their last passage from the battlefield to home...it dishonors them to hide them as if we are ashamed of them. If I were killed in battle, I would want the people back home to be proud of me, and to honor my remains...and now just shuttle them around under cover...

And, I think for every inch of freedoms and protections that this government takes away from us...it is spitting on the graves of these fine men and women...because, they didn't fight and die for Cary Sherman to sue their relatives, or for FBI to raid the school their kids or nieces and nephews go to school at (sorry for dangling participle).

I am NOT proud of the war these men and women died in. I AM proud of each and every one of them...I just wish they were still among the living.

And, I would end by saying that, to every man and women fighting for us in all countries (including my buddy in the Corps in Iraq)....God Bless You and Keep You, and thank you one and all for your service to our country.......

< parade rest >
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 6:08 PM
typo...and now just shuttle them around under cover, should say "noy just shuttle them..."
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 9:29 PM
Code I agree with you on that. I don't think anyone on this site can doubt each of our love of this country or we wouldn't be here debating whats important for us. my disagreement was using those scenes not to honor them, but to promote a political agenda against the war. that dishonors them I feel.
Otherkyodylee
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 9:47 PM
The truth about the media ban on showing flagged draped coffins:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1107-01.htm

"On December 21 1989, President George Bush senior was holding a press conference about the US intervention in Panama as the first American fatalities from the conflict were arriving at Dover.

With General Manuel Noriega still at large and half of America believing the military intervention could not be regarded a success while he remained so, it was a politically sensitive time. At the beginning of the briefing the president had told reporters he was suffering from neck pain. At the end he did a duck walk to illustrate his stiffness. That's when "the goof-a-meter went off the charts", as one correspondent put it.

Unbeknown to the White House, three major news networks had moved to a split screen. While the president shared his light-hearted moment with the press corps on one half, America's dead were arriving in caskets on the other. It was a public relations disaster. White House spokesman Marlin Fitzwater described the coverage as "outrageous and unfair" and vowed to express his "extreme dissatisfaction" to the channels concerned.

Less than a year later the White House decreed a ban on traditional military ceremonies and media coverage marking the return of the bodies of US soldiers to Dover. It was an abrupt shift in policy for what had become a national wartime ritual. Along with yellow ribbons and flag waving, the scenes from Dover were part of the American war experience.

For the next 12 years the ban was largely ignored, even after it was extended to all military bases during the last days of the Clinton administration. But this March, shortly before the war began, the Pentagon handed down a directive that made it perfectly clear it expected the policy to be heeded.

"The public wants the commander-in-chief to have proper perspective and keep his eye on the big picture and the ball," says Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director. "At the same time, they want their president to understand the hardship and sacrifice many Americans are enduring at a time of war. And we believe he is striking that balance."

Others disagree. They say the growing number of casualties is the ball, which is precisely why the Pentagon enforced the ban on coverage at Dover. "You can call it news control or information control of flat-out propaganda," says Christopher Simpson, a communications professor at Washington's American University. "Whatever you call it, this is the most extensive effort at spinning a war that the department of defense has ever undertaken in this country. Casualties are a very important media football in any war [and] this is a qualitative change."

Either way, implementing the ruling has had an effect. For the first time since war in the television era, the sight of flag-covered caskets arriving to the salute of military colleagues and the tears of mourning relatives are no longer part of the national narrative. Bush has not attended the funeral of a single soldier slain in the war and refers to the casualties only in general terms. Without Dover, there can be no Dover test.

The bald numbers of the death toll dominate political debate and public disquiet. But the human impact behind those statistics has been scattered to communities throughout the country. The bodies travel from a global conflict to local crises without apparently touching the national consciousness. Even on a regional level the deaths receive scant attention."
Otherkyodylee
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 9:56 PM
More truth:

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/helenthomas/2593688/detail.html

Pentagon Manages War Coverage By Limiting Coffin Pictures
'Body Count' News Fueled Antiwar Sentiment During Vietnam Campaign

POSTED: 6:49 p.m. EST October 29, 2003
UPDATED: 6:51 p.m. EST October 29, 2003

WASHINGTON -- One of the lessons the U.S. government apparently learned from the Vietnam War is this: Don't let the American public see coffins arriving home with U.S. casualties from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Coffin images during the Vietnam era -- along with photos and video of body bags in the field and military officials talking constantly about "body counts" -- had a tremendous impact in prompting antiwar sentiment at home.

In a move by the Bush administration to suppress distressing images of war, the Defense Department issued a directive last March on the eve of the U.S. invasion of Iraq that declared:

"There will be no arrival ceremonies for, or media coverage of, deceased military personnel returning to or departing from Ramstein (Germany) airbase or Dover (Del.) base, (and) to include interim stops."

There have always been some media restrictions at Dover Air Force Base -- the site of the largest Defense Department mortuary for the remains of soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines. But the new rule expands the blackout to all military bases.

Under the Pentagon clamp down, American fatalities will be reduced to statistics and the public will see little of the human side of the war."
Otherkyodylee
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 10:02 PM
Every American should please visit this site. You owe to yourself to know the truth.

697 Dead and counting. Did you know that?

http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 23, 2004 @ 11:26 PM
Kyodylee...Thank you so much for those posts...I did visit the militarycity.com site and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I do not think most people know that close to 700 have died. They were just talking about the football hero that walked away from a multi-million dollar contract to join the Rangers and fight, and he was killed.

And, to compmore's statement, I don't want anyone just to use the dead bodies of our servicemen and servicewomen for a political agenda, BUT, I respectfully believe their LIVES were sacrificed for a political agenda.

I deeply honor both Kyodylee's service, and the service of your son Compmore...and ALL folks on this board who have served, or who have friends or family who have served. As I have mentioned, I lost my dad in a substandard VA hospital. I had several friends who returned from Nam, much the worse for wear, one having a metal plate in his head , and others, physically ok, but psychologically scarred for life.

Our country, all too often, has used up, and discarded the best and brightest. As a nation, we owe a great debt to everyone who suits up and shows up...from those aboard the ships at sea, to those who fly in the ships in air, to the grunts to carry the war forward one inch at a time in the sand and mud in countries around the world. I put the safety and health of our service people FAR above Halliburton profits, or Georgies lust for oil or political agenda.

War is not grand, not romantic, not thrilling. In many ways, war is like a back alley fight...it is mean, it is dangerous, it hurts everyone involved, and it's the luck of the draw as to whether you get out alive or not.

Bush seems to like flying down to a carrier dressed up in a flight suit and shaking hands for a photo op, but where is he when the funerals are held?

There's coverage of bodies coming home from Iraq in March 2003, in England,
at http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,925827,00.html, and in some
ways, this is much more respectful than hiding the bodies. You have to remember
that the US government no longer calls them "body bags", but now, "transport tubes"...as if they are talking about merchandise being shipped.

In the same vein as one of Kyodylee's articles, here is one about the need to remember the cost of war...
http://www.detnews.com/2003/metro/0310/27/a02-308064.htm
"Monday, October 27, 2003


We need reminders of war's cost


By Luther Keith / The Detroit News

The coffins keep coming. In small numbers, but relentlessly, the United States military is shipping home the bodies of sons and daughters, mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters who have paid the ultimate sacrifice in our nation's effort to bring democracy to Iraq.

Officially, as President Bush announced with much fanfare, major hostilities to oust the brutal regime of Saddam Hussein ended in May with triumphant scenes of U.S. forces rolling into Baghdad to the cheers of liberated Iraqis.

But our attempt at nation building has been tortured, painful and costly in dollars -- more than $87 billion with requests for more on the way -- and in lives.

For supporters of the war against Iraq, which the president considered a key part of his worldwide war on terrorism, the deaths and injuries inflicted on Americans in daily attacks and ambushes by Saddam loyalists are a regrettable but necessary price to be paid for freedom. Since May 1, at least 108 American soldiers have been killed in Iraq. Some have died in military accidents.

For critics, the casualties are lives that have been needlessly sacrificed on the altar of a misguided policy that has flung our nation into a quagmire reminiscent of Vietnam.

Whatever one's view, those of us not personally touched by the conflict must resist the impulse to file away routine media reports of casualties like so much background noise. We hear them, but we aren't really paying attention.

Since the reports of casualty deaths comes in ones, twos and threes, instead of hundreds, it's easy to dismiss the dead soldiers as faceless statistics -- much in the way we tend to overlook the thousands of people who die in auto accidents each year.

But each military death brings grief and shattered lives, even for those surviving family members who bravely tell reporters they are proud their loved one died in the service of his or her country.

According to the Associated Press, at least 15 soldiers with Michigan ties have been killed since military operations began in Iraq.

They include:

* Army Master Sgt. William Lee Payne, 46, who joined the Army shortly after graduating from Otsego High School in 1975. He died May 16 in Haswah, Iraq, killed when ordnance exploded as he examined it.

* Army Staff Sgt. Brett J. Petriken, 30, of Flint, a military police officer, one of two soldiers killed May 26 when a heavy equipment transporter crossed a median and struck his vehicle in Samawah, Iraq.

* Army Capt. Paul J. Cassidy, 36, of Laingsburg, who died in Camp Babylon as a result of noncombat injuries July 13. He served as department secretary for the Meridian Township clerk's office.

* Army Sgt. Trevor A. Blumberg, 22, of Canton Township, a paratrooper, died Sept. 14 when a roadside bomb hit a convoy and destroyed his Humvee in Fallujah, Iraq. Blumberg was an 82nd Airborne paratrooper with the 1st Battalion of the 504th Parachute Infantry Regiment.

* Army Spc. Donald L. Wheeler, 22, of Concord died as a result of the injuries he sustained Oct. 13 in Tikrit, Iraq, when his unit came under attack from resistance forces.

* Army Staff Sgt. Paul J. Johnson, 29, of Calumet was killed Oct. 20 when Iraqi fighters ambushed his patrol in Fallujah.

The potential damaging public relations impact of seeing flag-draped coffins arrive at military air bases apparently has not been lost on the Bush administration.

The Pentagon is now enforcing a policy banning news coverage and photography of dead soldiers' homecomings on all military bases, reportedly for logistical reasons involving gathering family members for ceremonies.

We don't need to see the coffins to remember the war. We need to see them to remember the dead. "

I feel, if these guys and gals were good enough to wear the uniform of the USA, they are good enough to have a dignified and public welcome home. The WORST thing is to shuttle them home in private, under cover, as if we are ashamed.

I believe each person who died, deserves a solemn, dignified welcome home, and the reading of their name at the VERY least.

I understand that not everyone believes that way, and that's fine. But, for me,
feeling the way I do about it all..that's why I take the stand I do on this issue.

And, I also join with Kyodylee in personally asking everyone visit
http://www.militarycity.com/valor/honor.html
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:29 AM
"Every American should please visit this site. You owe to yourself to know the truth."

That site is a shit load of propaganda. Just because it helps you make a point doesn't mean it isn't.

Tactful, it has the little "dead americans" counter. The same people that are against the war or want to "put a face on the soldiers" in Iraq are the same ones that turn them into nothing statistics to further their propaganda.

That site is some sick shit. How blind are some of you? How dare you criticize the RIAA spreading their propaganda, then show us that? What's the difference? I thought we supported the clean cut truth here. This site is veering away from it's purpose.


"Current Operation Iraqi Freedom casualty"
Don't tell me it isn't propaganda. Nobody wants to see that shit.
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:45 AM
""Current Operation Iraqi Freedom casualty"
Don't tell me it isn't propaganda. Nobody wants to see that shit."

"But why should we hear about body bags, and deaths, and how many, what day it's gonna happen, and how many this or what do you suppose? Or, I mean, it's, it's not relevant. So, why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that." - Barbara Bush
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 1:04 AM
Why does anything think the pentagon is trying to "hide" the pictures from us to keep us from knowing the truth or whatever it is they're trying to hide?

I think if the Pentagon wanted something to be hidden from the public, they could do it. It amazes me how we go from one instance of accusing the government of being sneaky and hiding things straight to the pentagon, of all things, being unable to hide something from the public.

They're angry about the release, not because it ruined their master plan of finding a way to halt the amazing counter at militarycity.com, but because it is a disgrace that they are being exploited.

The whole deal with crying over this war is old. So little of it makes sense, when there are other reasons to oppose to the war that nobody even discusses. How does the lack of WMD, or even the lying about WMD because Americans are too dumb to realize that the solution to terrorism is to plant a democracy in the middle of the middle-east, invalidate the ousting of Saddam Hussien?

There were 405,000 US casualties in World War II. I don't get some people trying to act like they've really caught onto something when they think they're proving to the world that Americans die in wars that America fights.

"Roosevelt repeatedly deceived the American people during the period before Pearl Harbor ... He was faced with a terrible dilemma. If he let the people slumber in a fog of isolation, they might well fall prey to Hitler. If he came out unequivocally for intervention, he would be defeated in 1940."
-Thomas Bailey, The Man in the Street, 1948

At least Bush didn't know 9/11 was going to happen. Roosevelt pretty much knew all about Pearl Harbor before it happened. That was for those of you who say "WWII was justified because [whatever]."

I am curious to know how many people at this increasingly liberal website called for Bill Clinton's head when he HID (there's that HIDING again) the fact that all he did in Kosovo was fail and blow up civilians while Bush carried out the most humane war in history (yes, it's true). Bill Clinton murdered civilians in Kosovo and lied about it to gain world support (sound familiar)? And of course, Roosevelt knew of Pearl Harbor (information we know thanks to the Freedom of Information Act for anyone who wants to do a background check on my information).

So, in conclusion - stop complaining. God. It's nothing new, so don't act like it is.

This is outside the scope of this website which should be focused on issues of privacy and corporate power (corporate power greatly increased after WWII thanks to Roosevelt and his lies). The only thing different between now and then is the internet and the rapid profliferation of both propaganda, stupidity, and pointless whining. And I don't even like Bush (disclaimer).
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 1:05 AM
""But why should we hear about body bags, and deaths, and how many, what day it's gonna happen, and how many this or what do you suppose? Or, I mean, it's, it's not relevant. So, why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that." - Barbara Bush"

I never said we shouldn't know what's going on. I am talking about propaganda, and how people love it when it helps them.
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 1:20 AM
War is political - It's about ideals
War is propaganda - both sides use it
Always has been - since the trojan horse
Always will - from WWII and beyond
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:19 AM
"Americans are too dumb to realize that the solution to terrorism is to plant a democracy in the middle of the middle-east"

I see you've got it all figured out.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:36 AM
It isn't that hard to figure out. Why don't you enlighten me, prick?
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:40 AM
"It isn't that hard to figure out."

Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Pearle said the same thing.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:44 AM
I've found no such quote. Please direct me toward your source.
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:52 AM
"Why don't you enlighten me, prick?"

Btw, if you think the US is in Iraq to "plant a democracy in the middle-east" then you have been duped. Are you familiar with Order 39? I didn't think so.

"It isn't liberation, democracy, counter-terrorism, a search for weapons of mass destruction, humanitarian concerns, or even oil or Israel's security interests. It is simple geo-strategic military positioning, a classic Cold War model, aimed at punishing future enemies and rewarding allies by leveraging regional oil flow, water allocations, and weapons development. "

http://www.militaryweek.com/kk041304.shtml
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:09 AM
I have no problem with that. It was my view that it's geo-strategic military positioning now, and Iraq on it's own (more or less) later.

I think it's obvious as hell.

It's no secret that "Operation Iraqi Freedom" is a dead giveaway to lying about what the war is really about and the lies snowball from there.

Terrorism is bred in the middle-east. Bush knew what he was doing the first time he said it would be a "long fight." What better place is there to start any of this? The show of power, the military positioning, the rebuilding of a democratic society (whenever that happens).

Of course there are alterior motives like oil. The money from it should go to the Iraqis as Bush said, but I sincerely doubt that will happen. We do need oil, but before Bush makes it a motive he needs to look Alaska. I hate Bush for his environmental record and his flat out denial that climate change exists. He needs to spend his oil money on new fuel sources before we're all screwed. But back to the main point - yes I know that. I don't have a problem with it. It's a great idea.
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:29 AM
"Terrorism is bred in the middle-east. "

Oh really? In what country was Al Queda bred? (It wasn't in the middle east) What country trained many of the people who later became members of Al Queda? (It wasn't a middle eastern country) No offense, but you are woefully ignorant on this subject. The US military is already so overtaxed that there is already talk about reinstituting the draft. And you think we can conquer the middle east with armies and weaponry. That will never happen.
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:31 AM
Answer to my questions - Al Queda was bred in Afghanistan. The country that trained them was the United States - the CIA specifically.
IntermediateDreddsnik
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 8:57 AM
This in relation to the theme of the site ...
I'll take a stab at it.

Emotional Power.
Music Has it.
Pictures have it.

These photos are a powerful emotional
statement.
They are not vulgar.
They are eerie, surreal, they make ya think.
Twice, even.
People who think frighten people who
desire power and control.
This is also why images and footage of
9/11 are forbidden on Television.
Anything with the potential to incite or
cause thought or emotional response
must be controlled, lest it
produce thoughts counterproductive to
those in power.

i'll stop babbling now.
DMemberdemonchild
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 9:13 AM
mroop you say that Al Queda wasn't bred in the middle east but in Afghanistan?? I assume it was a typo or just a brainfart.

The fact that the US trained Al Queda is irrelevent, the real problem was that after Russia left Afghanistan America did too and left the country in ruins. The Taliban took over and allowed Al Queda to flourish. Our mistake there was not training Al Queda but for not helping them to get back on thier feet after the war with Russia. We just abandoned the country and patted ourselves on the back for a job well done.
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 10:11 AM
Hypothetically, if I were killed in this war or any war, I would no longer support the cause of that war.
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 10:39 AM
I don't say that lightly or to sound cute.

I mean, quite seriously, If I were in one of those coffins, I would be very against this "rebuilding effort" in Iraq.

I earnestly pray daily for GOD to protect everyone in harms way in Iraq, and that ALL of our troops are blessed with a moment of peace.

The images of this article do not defile the dead in my opinion, but serve as an urgent reminder that this "rebuilding effort" is not just on television. But very real, and very serious to a lot of very real families. If anything, I believe that they should be further honored by a moment of silence on the radio, and on television for the service members that we lose, as we lose them.
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 10:47 AM
the growing sentiment that, "Still, very very few Americans have died in this war", sickens me.
AdvancedLachatte
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 11:28 AM
kyodylee: I, too, appreciate the links and information that you provided.
I also found the ensuing debate very informative.
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 11:39 AM
I've tried real hard not to get to indepth in this type of discussion because it draws so many passions from all sides. this is an emotional issue and there are a lot of valid points. I have to say this though. what sickens me is all the people who were for the war until soilders started dying. as a nation we were right behind the president then when the body bags came home people gasped in horror and started rethinking their stance. What the heck to we think war is about? If you're against it, fine. but don't (the nation as a whole I'm talking about) be hypocritical about it. We can't live in a fairy tale world and think we can take care of all the bad guys and not loose any soilders.

I don't know if Iraq is related to 9/11 or not but before that date we had not done anything to provoke the mideast (except maybe our policys they hated but that doesn't justify that attack). We turned tail and ran out of Beriut when our marines were attacked and killed. they weren't even allowed to load their weapons for fear it would offend. In somolia we turned tail and ran when a few of our guys got killed. Again we did what they wanted and they still come after us. and when we stayed home and not gotten involved in any world affiars for almost a decade (except for Kosovo, Bosnia, and the first gulf war which all had the backing of the UN like the world wanted) we were attacked. The fact of the matter is there are people out there who want to destroy us no matter how peacefully we want to try and live with them.

I hear a lot of talk everywhere about how we support the troops but we hate the war. No rational person likes war. I can tell you that the majority of troops over there are there to do a job and take it seriously. when they hear all this anti war talk and see how their fallen comrades are being used to justify the hatred of the war they DO NOT feel supported. Some of them feel the same as the anti war crowd but most don't.

The reality of what's going on over there is much different then what we see on TV. The same media we are constantly bashing for not telling the whole story about the RIAA and entertainment industry suddenly gets a lot of credibility when they report distored facts about IRAQ that supports our views.

In short, don't tell me you support the troops and then turn around and spout rhetoric that weakens their morale. They are hearing this stuff and most of them have little respect for it.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 11:55 AM
"Oh really? In what country was Al Queda bred? (It wasn't in the middle east) What country trained many of the people who later became members of Al Queda? (It wasn't a middle eastern country) No offense, but you are woefully ignorant on this subject."

I see you've got it all figured out.
DMemberdebazoz
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 11:58 AM
These are photos of shuttle astronauts caskets. Apparently one of their employees is in the pictures.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/04/23/iraq.photographs.nasa.reut/index.html
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:00 PM
I take e-mail:

hermit@ec.rr.com
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:03 PM
wasn't that smart?
Otherkyodylee
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:16 PM
I have been vehemently opposed to this war since before it started. Our troops should not be there in the first place. I view this war as nothing more than Shrub's (as CodeWarrior likes to call him) fulfillment of his own personal political family agenda. Period.

Soldiers do their duty. They do what they are trained for and follow orders. But soldiers do not fight for a cause. They fight for each other.

The morale in Iraq is abysmal. They do not feel supported. They see each other dying every day for no good reason. And it is not antiwar sentiment that makes them feel this way. It is the feeling that they have been "forgotten" about by Americans. Americans go on with their daily lives oblivious to what is actually happening there. Can you name the name of just one dead soldier? They feel isolated, alone and forgotten.

You ask any one of them what they want most in the whole world. Their answer is not "to win the war". Their answer is "to come home."

That's what I want. I want them all to come home.

And for the ones that come home in a flagged-draped coffin, I want every single American to see that coffin, say a prayer for that person and his/her family and appreciate the blood that has been spilled on their behalf. We owe them that.
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:19 PM
don't tell me you support the "rebuilding effort" while you refuse to honor the lives.
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:24 PM
AMEN, brother kyodylee.

I opposed this war the first time, while I was in the armed sevices on a submarine, and had no hope of getting a picture of my coffin.
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:31 PM
correction, "war" should read "militarty action".
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:39 PM
"This is outside the scope of this website which should be focused on issues of privacy and corporate power (corporate power greatly increased after WWII thanks to Roosevelt and his lies)."

I respectfully say that the scope of the website is determined only by the topics covered, and since certainly, a lot of people seem to care vociferously about it, then it is within the scope. There's no law on what our scope is, or should be here.

I recall when Bush used the term "crusades" early on in this mess. People thought he just made a poor choice of words. Folks may think this UNTIL they remember what his undergraduate degree is in. His Bachelors degree is in HISTORY. And you are going to tell me that someone with a degree in History will be blindly oblivious to what the term "crusades" uttered by a wester political/military leader will do to people who have been pissed off for the past seven hundred years. They still see Saladin (Salah al-Din Yusuf) as one of the greatest leaders of all time because he in effect, kicked Richard the Lionhearted's butt. The Crusades in the past ended up bankrupting Europe, and leaving vast portions of the population of Europe dead. The original crusades were a horrible defeat for the West, especially, the so-called "Children's Crusade" (ironincally, the name of the book by Kurt Vonnegut which was turned into my all time fave movie, Slaughterhouse Five). More info on the Children's crusade is found at:
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/children's_crusade.htm .

Part of the whole mix is that both Christianity and Islam, are proud of a tradition of martyrs, or, people giving up their life (or having their life taken) for their religion.

We talk about these men and women coming back in coffins, almost in martyr terms, and I do that. We say they gave the "ultimate sacrifice", or, gave their life for their country. To some extent, we must understand that Iraq, SHOULD NOT BE turned into a "Holy War", though Bin Laden and others would say it is a jihad against the Great Satan.

We should not be afraid to separate the war itself, from the people fighting it.
We CAN support them and care about them, and at the same time, hate the war. The war is NOT a holy battle with one side smiled on by Allah, Yahweh, or Jehovah, and the other side under the thumb of Belial, Lucifer, Satan. In all past wars, both sides want to paint themselves as favored by God. This is of course, problematic for anyone who is of a monotheistic orientation. If you believe in polytheism, then one might have different "gods" favoring one side or the other, but the religions involved are monotheistic.

If you think of it...this was a simple story. A website ownered used the freedom of information act to be able to access pictures of the incoming coffins, and to post them on a website. This really angered the government, and they wanted to stop him....an act of limiting free speech. The other day, we heard about Justice Scalia ordering federal law enforcement to seize recording equipment from a reporter and erase the recording of his speech. Ironically, I found out that, again through a Freedom of Information Request, it was discovered that Justice Scalia was very opposed to passage of the Freedom of Information Act and fought it. It would appear, Justice Scalia is against the public having a free access to information, and would love to control information. That's not good. It reminds me of the RIAA who also would love to control who gets to share information/data/songs.

I don't know how ALL or even the majority of troops in Iraq feel. I have friends there, and I have found out that those troops who want to speak out against the war, have made it known to them that they should not do this, in no uncertain terms.

Now, about terrorism coming from the Middle East. Terrorism is a tactic, plain and simple. It has been used for millenia. The Romans used Terrorism, the Vikings used "terrorism"...in fact, one groups was so known for terrorism that their name became associated with random, senseless acts of violence, the Vandals.

But, to the extent that religion has become associated with terrorism, we know that three of the largest religions in the World, were born in the Middle East, and that these religions have had zealots who believe people should convert or die, believe their way or die. From the Spanish Inquisition of the Church, to modern day jihadists, the idea that there is one true way to believe, and others either see the light or die, is fairly unique to the Middle Eastern religions.

Shinto , Taoism, Buddhism, and other nature based or Far Eastern religions tend not to be so evangelistic in orientation.

If we overlay geopolitical goals and agendas, being carried along by religiousity, suddenly, we have a volatile mix.

The average, working middle class person, American, is funding this war in Iraq. What are we getting in return? Dead bodies, increased gas prices, and more hatred now than ever I think. Are we increasing the freedom of Iraqis at this point?
Do the majority of Iraqis want us there? And, how do we help them by installing a puppet government...is this the example of a constitutional republic where you let people vote to decide their leaders?

You are NOT going to "fix" the Middle East by continued infusions of American cash, of America's young men and women, or by keeping a military presence there, because, accept it or not, by keeping a military presence there, the Iraqi people are going to feel like they are living in an occupied country, run by the Great Satan. I've had lots of friends from Iran and Iraq, and I can tell you that even if they sympathisized with the US goals to begin with, they are going to get more and more angry as time goes on.

The colonials fighting the British were seen as terrorists and guerillas.
In Nam, the North Vietnamese were seen (by us) as terrorists and guerillas.
The point is, terrorists and guerillas are like a chronic, sub-clinical infection...and the occupying troops are like a mild antibiotic that never really kills the infection. As soon as the antibiotic, which is acting merely as a static agent, is withdrawn, things erupt violently.

The truth is that the various sides in this war, have very secular interests...money and power. Sure, they may cloak it in high sounding terms like freedom for the Iraqi people, the will of Allah, whatever sounds good and noble, but at the end of the day, its power and money, the same as it is with the RIAA.

Land disputes have been the source of wars since wars began. Humans are basically territorial creatures. And, think of this. If we here, with so much in common, living in the same country, have such divergent views on this simple topic, how much more difficult it is it for people in different countries, different cultures, different languages.

I have friends who practice Islam, some of them are blacks who converted from being Baptist. Islamism as I know it, from Mohammed, in the Q'uran, AS PRACTICED IN THE MIDDLE EAST, has historically been a militant religion. An interesting asise is that there are enclaves of Muslims in China (one branch developing the "hopping legs" style of Martial arts) who have lived for centuries in harmony with Buddhists and Taoists in China. This leads me to believe that it is the cultural overlay on the religion that generates the polemical stance.

If a guy has been "in country" for a year and desperately wants to come home, and was led to believe he would be coming home, and then is told he will be there 3 months, or a year, or an unidentified term longer, I think his morale will be affected without me uttering a word. I do support the troops. I do think we should bring them home. If people think that keeping them there one more day keeps our country safe one more day, or that one more American life lost in the streets of Iraq will make us one inch safer, or will make things HERE one iota better, I think they are deluded. And, because I have friends in the service defending MY right to use my freedom of speech, I will not dishonor them by not using that freedom they are fighting so dearly to protect...at least, if they are not fighting for OUR freedom, they need to come home and do THAT!

Man..enough of that, right?
:) (Smile)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:44 PM
And to clarify something, Kyodylee is 100 right...in the service, you fight for your brother next to you...you aren't fighting for some noble purpose, and I suspect that has been the case since the day organized wars began.

He is also right...these guys want to come home.

And, I agree with theHermit, Kyodylee, and other Vets on this board completely
on everything they have said.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:44 PM
And to clarify something, Kyodylee is 100 right...in the service, you fight for your brother next to you...you aren't fighting for some noble purpose, and I suspect that has been the case since the day organized wars began.

He is also right...these guys want to come home.

And, I agree with theHermit, Kyodylee, and other Vets on this board completely
on everything they have said.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:44 PM
sorry for double post...and I meant 100 percent...
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:50 PM
a very wise man has just spoken.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:53 PM
:) (Smile) dat wuz you my friend!
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 12:59 PM
kyodylee I beg to differ strongly. the antiwar rhetoric IS affecting morale. My son's entire unit feels that way. when they were first over there we sent them care packages and they were very grateful. now he just says he's there to do a job and doesn't care what the public thinks anymore. They see each other die but they DO see a reason. some don't but most do their jobs.

Whatever everyones view of Bush's stance or reasons for the war, that's their view and I respect it. I don't pretend to speak for everyone over there but I do know that they do not feel the public supports them and that is demoralizing reguardless. They know what fighting and dying is all about, they were trained for it. they had no illusions, we as a nation aparently do.

I am not sickened by the antiwar movement. we all have a right to voice our views, I am sickened to death by the peace at any price, craw in a hole incase someone might hurt us mentality this country seems to have. either we should build a fence around our nation and live our lives and let the rest of the world do what they want or we should try to make a difference. this half way stuff doesn't work. I thank God this attitude didn't prevail in the 40's or we'd all be goose stepping right now.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 1:16 PM
No, there certainly is no law governing what we discuss. There's just veering off topic and forgetting that the purpose of this site has a goal. Which is of course, to bring our troops home. Something that I obviously think should never happen. I am against the troops!

"I opposed this war the first time, while I was in the armed sevices on a submarine, and had no hope of getting a picture of my coffin."

It's a volunteer armed forces. That would have been tragic and terrible if something had happened to you on your submarine. It's a truely unpleasant thought to think of being "buried" at the bottom of the ocean. Unfortunately, we still need submarines. And like I said - volunteer.

Some of you may not believe me when I say I agree with most of you. Other than "being vehemently opposed to the war" I agree with most things said here. Being so opposed is easy. Being extremely pro-war doesn't make sense. It's hard to judge something like this from a non-historical perspective. That being said, I am forming my own opinions and am forced to put some (*some*) faith in those who developed our plans for over there, whatever they are. Mroop and I partially discussed them earlier.

All of the arguments supporting war seem to be constantly countered by "Our troops are people too," or "They want to come home!" I'm well aware, just like everyone else is. I feel for them and have the utmost respect for them. Which is why I see the the "dead americans" counter as sick exploitation. But I guess when it helps you further your cause anything goes, doesn't it?

The phrase "War is hell" wasn't derived recently. It's just been put on TV recently. What troops in any war have felt the power, pride, and support of an entire nation boosting their morale and helping them through each and every day? NONE. We had more troops sent, more troops lost, and a longer war in WWII. All that, and we had a smaller population at the time, so a greater percentage sent as well.

"the growing sentiment that, "Still, very very few Americans have died in this war", sickens me."

It's not a sentiment. It's the truth.

Please stop mistaking my presentation of facts and perfectly legit comparisons look like I'm some war-mongering republican. The purpose of everything I'm saying isn't having everyone here go "Oh, well it was only a few troops. March ahead!" The worst war stories you will ever read or hear about are from every war but this war (and no that doesn't mean I actually doubt that the troops are human).

"Support the troops!" and "Bring our boys home!" are sentiments that I share as well. Where we differ is that I believe our boys need to be brought home in rotation for awhile (and again, I know they're human and it's hard, so please stop reminding me). The morale in Iraq isn't any different than anything I've ever heard of. Of course I wasn't in any of the other wars, or this one, but I have family who have been and it's a reading interest of mine.
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 1:26 PM
"Support the troops!" and "Bring our boys home!"

I remember seeing that all the time during the Vietnam war protests. those antiwar protesters used the troops as their arguments but treated them like shit when they finally got home.

People say the government is making the same mistake they did in Vietnam. If that's true I say the antiwar movement is making the same mistakes too. I hope we don't see a repeat of history in that area.

Oh and don't think a parade with cheering crowds will help either.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 1:31 PM
Great point, comp.

If morale is such a problem, why exacerbate it? I guess it's that "anything goes if it helps your cause" thing again.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 1:39 PM
Comp...the World War II perspective on this is indeed important. People in America, in general did support our efforts (even though we put Japanese-Americans in camps, and took away their lands and property while they were in there).

But, since we have thrown WW II in the mix, and Bush in the mix (and interestingly, the last time we have a movie made of the Alamo, we were in Vietname)...here's some info on the Bush family and links to others...
first, the Bush Nazi linkage....This first piece is from the Draheim report, from Richard Draheim, policy analyst and speaker...
http://www.lpdallas.org/features/draheim/dr991216.htm
"THE BUSH NAZI CONNECTION
(750 words)

by Richard N. Draheim, Jr.


Richard Draheim is a policy analyst and speaker. He appears on the Dallas political affairs TV magazine America Outside the Beltway as a panelist and is a featured columnist for The Dallas Libertarian Post.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Copyright
Richard N. Draheim
all rights reserved

See release for news organizations and fair use.

Richard N. Draheim, Jr.
339 Henry M. Chandler
Rockwall, Texas 75087
972-771-9203 Why has Presidential candidate George W. Bush been able to raise uncounted tens of millions of dollars? It can't be because of his positions on the issues; he has scrupulously avoided taking many. It can't be because of his knowledge of world events; he thinks being asked such questions is a trick." (He will embarrassingly lie, saying that he knows the answer to a question, and half a sentence later admit that he doesn't.)

No, George "I'm No Longer Drunk" Bush's support is because the Bush family fortune is old, and it's big, and comes from a century old alliance with the most powerful interests on Wall Street and in industry. Worse, part of Dub-a-Ya's money comes from grandfather Prescott Bush's financial alliance with the Nazis.

On October 20, 1942, the US Alien Property Custodian, under the "Trading With the Enemy Act," seized the shares of the Union Banking Corporation (UBC), of which Prescott Bush was a director and shareholder. The largest shareholder was E. Roland Harriman. (Bush was also the managing partner of Brown Brothers Harriman, a leading Wall Street investment firm.)

The UBC was established to send American capital to Germany to finance the reorganization of its industry under the Nazis. Their leading German partner was the notorious Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, who wrote a book admitting much of this called "I Paid Hitler."

Among the companies financed was the Silesian-American Corporation, which was also managed by Prescott Bush, and by his father-in-law George Herbert Walker, who supplied Dub-a-Ya with his name. The company was vital in supplying coal to the Nazi war industry. It too was seized as a Nazi-front on November 17, 1942. The largest company Bush's UBC helped finance was the German Steel Trust, responsible for between one-third and one-half of Nazi iron and explosives.

Prescott Bush was also a director of the Harriman Fifteen Corporation, (this one owned largely by Roland's brother, Averell Harriman), which owned about a third of the Consolidated Silesian Steel Corporation, the rest owned by Friedrich Flick, (a member of Himmler's "Circle of Friends" who donated to the S.S.).

Republican Presidential candidate Bush's great-grandfather, Bert Walker, helped organize the Harriman investment in the Hamburg-America Line of ships, of which grandfather Prescott became a director. It was seized on August 28, 1942 because it was used to give free passage to Nazi propaganda and propagandists, and had earlier shipped guns to the Nazi's private armies to assist their takeover of Germany.

Further examples would be more tedious than shocking. But, given these evil financial dealings, how did Prescott later become a Republican Senator, and George H.W. become President? Well,the two leading attorneys for these Bush-Harriman-Nazi deals were John Foster Dulles, later Secretary of State under Eisenhower, and Allen Dulles, future head of the CIA.

Prescott's father, Samuel P. Bush, owned Buckeye Steel Castings Co. which made parts for the Harriman brothers' father's (E.H. Harriman) railroads. Harriman's financing for the railroads came largely from William Rockefeller. These shipped the oil of his brother John D. Rockefeller, the founder of Standard Oil. (This was the origin of the two Georges' involvement in the oil business.)

Samuel Bush became a leader in President Woodrow Wilson's "War Socialism" as director of small armaments and ammunition on the War Industries Board (which set up coercive price-fixing cartels over American industry during World War I). There, Bush assisted Percy Rockefeller (son of William) in his takeover of small arms manufacturers.

The elder George Bush continued the family tradition of support for totalitarian governments by supporting the Communist Chinese in the UN, and by directly aiding its military as President.

Will the younger George Bush continue to support big government, or will he support free markets? His first political act was a tax increase to subsidize his baseball stadium. When libertarians and conservative Republicans were opposing the bailout of American banks that loaned money to the Mexican government, the Texas Governor supported it, because of his connections to those Wall Street Banks.

This is in keeping with the actual history of the Republican Party. It was founded in the 1850's explicitly as the party of high taxes to subsidize politically connected businesses, (then known as "internal improvements"). All Republican Presidents in the last fifty years have continued to increase the size of the government, and claims of support for free markets and lowered taxes are mere rhetorical cover. Texas Governor George Bush will continue that tradition."

And, more from Clamor magazine...
"
Download a printable
version of this article!
Click here.

Want more articles like this?

While the Enron scandal currently unfolds, another Bush family business scandal lurks beneath the shadows of history that may dwarf it.

On April 19, 2001, President George W. Bush spent some of Holocaust Remembrance Day in the Capital Rotunda with holocaust survivors, allied veterans, and their families. In a ceremony that included Jewish prayers and songs sung by holocaust victims in the camps, Benjamin Meed, a survivor of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, movingly described to the gathering what he experienced on April 19, 1943.

"I stood outside a Catholic church, which faced the ghetto," Mr. Meed said, "a young Jewish boy posing as a gentile. As I watched the ghetto being bombarded by the German artillery, I could see many of the Jews of my community jumping out of windows of burning buildings. I stood long and mute."

The survivor concluded his reminiscence saying, "We tremble to think what could happen if we allow a new generation to arise ignorant of the tragedy which is still shaping the future."

President Bush, appearing almost uncomfortable, read a statement that said that humanity was "bound by conscience to remember what happened" and that "the record has been kept and preserved." The record, Mr. Bush stated, was that one of the worst acts of genocide in human history "came not from crude and uneducated men, but from men who regarded themselves as cultured and well schooled, modern men, forward looking. Their crime showed the world that evil can slip in and blend in amid the most civilized surroundings. In the end only conscience can stop it."

But while President Bush publicly embraced the community of holocaust survivors in Washington last spring, he and his family have been keeping a secret from them for over 50 years about Prescott Bush, the president's grandfather. According to classified documents from Dutch intelligence and US government archives, President George W. Bush's grandfather, Prescott Bush made considerable profits off Auschwitz slave labor. In fact, President Bush himself is an heir to these profits from the holocaust which were placed in a blind trust in 1980 by his father, former president George Herbert Walker Bush.

Throughout the Bush family's decades of public life, the American press has gone out of its way to overlook one historical fact – that through Union Banking Corporation (UBC), Prescott Bush, and his father-in-law, George Herbert Walker, along with German industrialist Fritz Thyssen, financed Adolf Hitler before and during World War II. It was first reported in 1994 by John Loftus and Mark Aarons in The Secret War Against the Jews: How Western Espionage Betrayed the Jewish People.

The US government had known that many American companies were aiding Hitler, like Standard Oil, General Motors and Chase Bank, all of which was sanctioned after Pearl Harbor. But as The New York Times reporter Charles Higham later discovered, and published in his 1983 groundbreaking book, Trading With The Enemy; The Nazi American Money Plot 1933-1949, "the government smothered everything during and even after the war." Why?

According to Higham, the US government believed "a public scandal ... would have drastically affected public morale, caused widespread strikes and perhaps provoked mutinies in the armed services." Higham claims the government thought "their trial and imprisonment would have made it impossible for the corporate boards to help the American war effort."

However, Prescott Bush's banks were not just financing Hitler as previously reported. In fact, there was a distinct business link much deeper than Mr. Higham or Mr. Loftus knew at the time their books were published.

A classified Dutch intelligence file which was leaked by a courageous Dutch intelligence officer, along with newly surfaced information from U.S. government archives, "confirms absolutely," John Loftus says, the direct links between Bush, Thyssen and genocide profits from Auschwitz.

The business connections between Prescott Bush and Fritz Thyssen were more direct than what has been previously written. This new information reveals how Prescott Bush and UBC, which he managed directly, profited from the Holocaust. A case can be made that the inheritors of the Prescott Bush estate could be sued by survivors of the Holocaust and slave labor communities. To understand the complete picture of how Prescott Bush profited from the Holocaust, it is necessary to return to the year 1916, where it all began.

Post World War I: Thyssen Empire On The Ropes

By 1916, August Thyssen could see the writing on the wall. The "Great War" was spinning out of control, grinding away at Germany's resources and economy. The government was broke and his company, Thyssen & Co., with 50,000 German workers and annual production of 1,000,000 tons of steel and iron, was buckling under the war's pressure. As the main supplier of the German military, August Thyssen knew Germany would be defeated once the US entered the war.

At 74, "King" August Thyssen knew he was also running out of time. His first born "prince" Friedrich (Fritz) Thyssen, had been groomed at the finest technical business schools in Europe and was destined to inherit his father's estimated $100,000,000 fortune and an industrial empire located at Muehhlheim on the Ruhr.

In addition to Fritz, plans were also made for the second son Heinrich. At the outbreak of the war, Heinrich Thyssen discreetly changed his citizenship from German to Hungarian and married the Hungarian aristocrat Baroness Margrit Bornemisza de Kaszon. Soon Heinrich Thyssen switched his name to Baron Thyssen Bornemisza de Kaszon.

Near the end of World War I, August Thyssen opened the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart in Rotterdam. The neutral Holland was the perfect location outside of Germany to launder assets from the August Thyssen Bank in Berlin when the financial demands of the Allied forces surfaced. But the war ended much sooner than even Thyssen calculated and what developed caught the "Rockefeller of the Ruhr" off guard.
On November 10, 1918, German socialists took over Berlin. The following morning at 5 a.m., what was left of Germany surrendered to the Allies, officially ending World War I. "At the time of the Armistice and the signing of the Treaty of Versailles, my Father and I were deeply saddened by the spectacle of Germany's abject humiliation," Thyssen recalled later in his autobiography, I Paid Hitler.

After the war, chaos descended on Germany as food ran short. Winter was looming over a starving nation when on Dec. 7, 1918, the socialist Spartacists League came knocking on the Thyssen Villa with armed militia. August and Fritz were arrested and dragged from jail to jail across Germany for four days. Along the way, they were lined up in staged executions designed to terrorize them.

It worked. When released, the two Thyssens were horrified at the new political climate in their beloved Germany. They could not accept that Germany was responsible for its own demise. All Germany's problems, the Thyssens felt, "have almost always been due to foreigners." It was the Jews, he and many others believed, who were secretly behind the socialist movement across the globe.

Meanwhile Fritz's younger brother Baron Thyssen Bornemisza de Kaszon moved to Rotterdam and became the principal owner of the Bank voor Handel en Scheepvaart. All the Thyssens needed now was an American branch."

Another of MANY links on this topic is
http://www.infowars.com/print_prescott.htm

I won't go into the history of the Bush family and their associations with Bohemian grove and Skull and Bones, though both are well documented.

I do think we need to look at the Bin Laden family association with the Bush family.

From
http://www.rense.com/general14/WSJbushsenior.htm
You'll notice this article is from 9-28-01...just 17 days after 9/11.
"WSJ - Bush Sr. In Business
With bin Ladin Family
Via Carlyle Group
Judicial Watch.org
9-28-1

WASHINGTON, DC -Judicial Watch, the public interest law firm that investigates and prosecutes government corruption and abuse, reacted with disbelief to The Wall Street Journal report of yesterday that George H.W. Bush, the father of President Bush, works for the bin Laden family business in Saudi Arabia through the Carlyle Group, an international consulting firm. The senior Bush had met with the bin Laden family at least twice. (Other top Republicans are also associated with the Carlyle group, such as former Secretary of State James A. Baker.) The terrorist leader Osama bin Laden had supposedly been "disowned" by his family, which runs a multi-billion dollar business in Saudi Arabia and is a major investor in the senior Bush's firm. Other reports have questioned, though, whether members of his Saudi family have truly cut off Osama bin Laden. Indeed, the Journal also reported yesterday that the FBI has subpoenaed the bin Laden family business's bank records.

Judicial Watch earlier this year had strongly criticized President Bush's father's association with the Carlyle Group, pointing out in a March 5 statement that it was a "conflict of interest (which) could cause problems for America's foreign policy in Middle East and Asia." Judicial Watch called for the senior Bush to resign from the firm then.

"This conflict of interest has now turned into a scandal. The idea of the President's father, an ex-president himself, doing business with a company under investigation by the FBI in the terror attacks of September 11 is horrible. President Bush should not ask, but demand, that his father pull out of the Carlyle Group," stated Judicial Watch Chairman and General Counsel Larry Klayman.

"This has the potential of making 'Billygate' (Jimmy Carter's brother's dealings with Libya) look like small potatoes," added Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton."

Another link is http://commons.somewhere.com/rre/2001/RRE.Summary.Carlyle.Grou.html

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/?030505ta_talk_mayer

http://www.bushwatch.com/bushmoney.htm
"The Bush-Bin Laden Money Connection




"Former President George Bush met with King Fahd, right, on a trip to Saudi Arabia last year as part of his work for the Carlyle Group." (NYT, 3/5/01)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A Second Bush Oil Deal To Come With Murky Ties To Saudi Financiers And Osama Bin Laden
"On September 24, President George W. Bush appeared at a press conference in the White House Rose Garden to announce a crackdown on the financial networks of terrorists and those who support them. “U.S. banks that have assets of these groups or individuals must freeze their accounts,” Bush declared. “And U.S. citizens or businesses are prohibited from doing business with them.”

"But the president, who is now enjoying an astounding 92 percent approval rating, hasn’t always practiced what he is now preaching: Bush’s own businesses were once tied to financial figures in Saudi Arabia who currently support bin Laden.

"In 1979, Bush’s first business, Arbusto Energy, obtained financing from James Bath, a Houstonian and close family friend. One of many investors, Bath gave Bush $50,000 for a 5 percent stake in Arbusto. At the time, Bath was the sole U.S. business representative for Salem bin Laden, head of the wealthy Saudi Arabian family and a brother (one of 17) to Osama bin Laden. It has long been suspected, but never proven, that the Arbusto money came directly from Salem bin Laden. In a statement issued shortly after the September 11 attacks, the White House vehemently denied the connection, insisting that Bath invested his own money, not Salem bin Laden’s, in Arbusto.

"In conflicting statements, Bush at first denied ever knowing Bath, then acknowledged his stake in Arbusto and that he was aware Bath represented Saudi interests. In fact, Bath has extensive ties, both to the bin Laden family and major players in the scandal-ridden Bank of Commerce and Credit International (BCCI) who have gone on to fund Osama bin Laden. BCCI defrauded depositors of $10 billion in the ’80s in what has been called the “largest bank fraud in world financial history” by former Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau. During the ’80s, BCCI also acted as a main conduit for laundering money intended for clandestine CIA activities, ranging from financial support to the Afghan mujahedin to paying intermediaries in the Iran-Contra affair.

"When Salem bin Laden died in 1988, powerful Saudi Arabian banker and BCCI principal Khalid bin Mahfouz inherited his interests in Houston. Bath ran a business for bin Mahfouz in Houston and joined a partnership with bin Mahfouz and Gaith Pharaon, BCCI’s frontman in Houston’s Main Bank.

"The Arbusto deal wasn’t the last time Bush looked to highly questionable sources to invest in his oil dealings. After several incarnations, Arbusto emerged in 1986 as Harken Energy Corporation. When Harken ran into trouble a year later, Saudi Sheik Abdullah Taha Bakhsh purchased a 17.6 percent stake in the company. Bakhsh was a business partner with Pharaon in Saudi Arabia; his banker there just happened to be bin Mahfouz.

"Though Bush told the Wall Street Journal he had “no idea” BCCI was involved in Harken’s financial dealings, the network of connections between Bush and BCCI is so extensive that the Journal concluded their investigation of the matter in 1991 by stating: “The number of BCCI-connected people who had dealings with Harken—all since George W. Bush came on board—raises the question of whether they mask an effort to cozy up to a presidential son.” Or even the president: Bath finally came under investigation by the FBI in 1992 for his Saudi business relationships, accused of funneling Saudi money through Houston in order to influence the foreign policies of the Reagan and first Bush administrations.

"Worst of all, bin Mahfouz allegedly has been financing the bin Laden terrorist network—making Bush a U.S. citizen who has done business with those who finance and support terrorists. According to USA Today, bin Mahfouz and other Saudis attempted to transfer $3 million to various bin Laden front operations in Saudi Arabia in 1999. ABC News reported the same year that Saudi officials stopped bin Mahfouz from contributing money directly to bin Laden. (Bin Mahfouz’s sister is also a wife of Osama bin Laden, a fact that former CIA Director James Woolsey revealed in 1998 Senate testimony.)

"When President Bush announced he is hot on the trail of the money used over the years to finance terrorism, he must realize that trail ultimately leads not only to Saudi Arabia, but to some of the same financiers who originally helped propel him into the oil business and later the White House. The ties between bin Laden and the White House may be much closer than he is willing to acknowledge." --Wayne Madsen, 10/22/01

Wayne Madsen, an investigative journalist based in Washington, is the author of Genocide and Covert Operations in Africa 1993-1999.



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Part One: "Hike in US defence spending to benefit Osama's family": Bin Laden-Bush business connection seen through Carlyle Group
"If the United States boosts defence spending in its quest to stop Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden's alleged terrorist activities, his family may be the unexpected beneficiary of that, media reports said. "Among its far-flung business interests, the well-heeled Saudi Arabian clan, which says it is estranged from Laden, is an investor in a fund established by Carlyle Group, a well-connected Washington merchant bank specialising in buyouts of defence and aerospace companies," The Wall Street Journal said in an investigative dispatch. It said "through this investment and its ties to Saudi royalty, the bin Laden family has become acquainted with some of the biggest names in the Republican Party." "In recent years, former president George H W Bush, ex-secretary of state James Baker and ex-secretary of defence Frank Carlucci have made the pilgrimage to the bin Laden family's headquarters in Jeddah (Saudi Arabia). "Ex-president Bush makes speeches on behalf of Carlyle Group and is senior adviser to its Asian Partners Fund, while Baker is its senior counsellor and Carlucci is the group's chairman," the journal said." --Hindustani Times, 9/28/01



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Part Two : Inside The Carlyle Group

With former US Defense Secretary Frank Carlucci as its chairman, it's no surprise that The Carlyle Group is drawn to defense. Defense and aerospace firms such as United Defense Industries make up a significant share of the world's largest private equity firm's portfolio. Also represented are information technology (Federal Data), health care, real estate, and bottling companies. Since Carlucci joined in 1989, a host of staffers from the Reagan and first Bush administrations have stinted at the company, including ex-Secretary of State James Baker and ex-budget chief Richard Darman. Former President Bush and former UK Prime Minister John Major have also made appearances. --Hoovers Online


***
...Traveling with the fanfare of dignitaries, Mr. Bush and Mr. Baker [use] their extensive government contacts to further their business interests as representatives of the Carlyle Group, a $12 billion private equity firm based in Washington that has parlayed a roster of former top-level government officials, largely from the Bush and Reagan administrations, into a moneymaking machine. In a new spin on Washington's revolving door between business and government, where lobbying by former officials is restricted but soliciting investments is not, Carlyle has upped the ante and taken the practice global. Mr. Bush and Mr. Baker were accompanied on their trips by former Prime Minister John Major of Britain, another of Carlyle's political stars. With door-openers of this caliber, along with shrewd investment skills, Carlyle has gone from an unknown in the world of private equity to one of its biggest players. Private equity, which involves buying up companies in private deals and reselling them, is a high-end business open only to the very rich. Over the last decade, the Carlyle empire has grown to span three continents and include investments in most corners of the world. It owns so many companies that it is now in effect one of the nation's biggest defense contractors and a force in global telecommunications. Its blue-chip investors include major banks and insurance companies, billion-dollar pension funds and wealthy investors from Abu Dhabi to Singapore. In getting business for Carlyle, Mr. Bush has been impressive. His meeting with the crown prince was followed by a yacht cruise and private dinners with Saudi businessmen. And Mr. Bush led Carlyle's successful entry into South Korea, the fastest-growing economy in Asia. After his meetings with the prime minister and other government and business leaders, Carlyle won a tough competition for control of KorAm, one of Korea's few healthy banks. The steady flow of politicians to lucrative private-sector jobs based on their government contacts is a familiar Washington tale. But in this case, it is being played out for more dollars, on a global stage, and in the world of private finance, where the minimal government rules prohibiting lobbying by former officials for a given period are not a factor. These rules say nothing about potential conflicts when former government officials use their connections and insights for financial gain, and they may attract more notice now that George W. Bush is president. Many of those involved with Carlyle, which invests largely in companies that do business with the government or are affected by government regulations, have ties to the Oval Office.

For instance, Frank C. Carlucci, a Reagan secretary of defense who as much as anyone is responsible for Carlyle's success, said he met in February with his old college classmate Donald H. Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, and Vice President Dick Cheney, himself a defense secretary under former President Bush, to talk about military matters — at a time when Carlyle has several billion-dollar defense projects under consideration.... "Carlyle is as deeply wired into the current administration as they can possibly be," said Charles Lewis, executive director of the Center for Public Integrity, a nonprofit public interest group based in Washington. "George Bush is getting money from private interests that have business before the government, while his son is president. And, in a really peculiar way, George W. Bush could, some day, benefit financially from his own administration's decisions, through his father's investments. The average American doesn't know that and, to me, that's a jaw-dropper."

It is difficult to determine exactly how much money the senior Mr. Bush and Mr. Baker have made. Mr. Baker is a Carlyle partner, and Mr. Bush has the title senior adviser to its Asian activities. With a current market value of about $3.5 billion on Carlyle's equity and with the firm owned by 18 partners and one outside investor, Mr. Baker's Carlyle stake would be worth about $180 million if each partner held an equal stake. It is not known whether he has more or less than the other partners. Unlike Mr. Baker, Mr. Bush has no ownership stake in Carlyle; he is an adviser and an investor and is compensated by obtaining stakes in Carlyle investments. Carlyle executives cited, for example, Mr. Bush's being allowed to put money he earns giving speeches for Carlyle into its investment funds. Mr. Bush generally receives $80,000 to $100,000 for a speech. He sits on no corporate boards other than Carlyle's. Carlyle also gave the Bush family a hand in 1990 by putting George W. Bush, who was then struggling to find a career, on the board of a Carlyle subsidiary, Caterair, an airline-catering company....

With $12 billion from investors, Carlyle claims to be the nation's largest private equity fund and makes money by investing in undervalued companies and reselling at a profit.... The California state pension fund invested $305 million with Carlyle, and the Texas teachers pension fund — whose board was appointed when George W. Bush was governor — gave Carlyle $100 million to invest in November. Carlyle also works as a financial adviser to the Saudi government....Carlyle has done well for its investors, returning an average of 34 percent a year over the last decade, in line with other private equity funds. It has done this by buying what it knows best — companies that are regulated by the government. Nearly two-thirds of its investments are in defense and telecommunications companies, which are affected by shifts in government spending and policy. ...Carlyle has become the nation's 11th largest defense contractor, owning companies that make tanks, aircraft wings and a broad array of other military equipment. It also owns health care companies, real estate, Internet companies, a bottling company and even Le Figaro, the French newspaper.... And its access extends well beyond American shores. In Europe, Carlyle has assembled an advisory board that besides Mr. Major includes Karl Otto Pöhl, former president of German's Bundesbank, and the past or present chairmen of B.M.W., Hoffman-LaRoche, Nestlé, LVMH-Moët Hennessy, Louis Vuitton and Aerospatiale, the French Airbus partner. Carlyle's Asia advisory board, which helps raise money and finds and reviews deals, includes former President Fidel V. Ramos of the Philippines, the former prime minister of Thailand and the executive director of the Abu Dhabi Investment Authority. The former South Korean prime minister Park Tae Joon was also an adviser to Carlyle.... In an office adorned with photographs of Mr. Carlucci and the politically mighty — he sits beneath an Oval Office picture of himself and Mr. Reagan — Mr. Carlucci makes it clear that his extensive government and global ties are as fresh as ever. "I know Rumsfeld extremely well," Mr. Carlucci said in an interview. "We've been close friends throughout the years. We were college classmates."...NYT, 3/5/01



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***
Part Three : Ex-Prez Bush's Financial Ties With Defense Contractors Leads To Call For Resignation

Judicial Watch, the public interest law firm that investigates and prosecutes government corruption and abuse, reacted with disbelief to The Wall Street Journal report of yesterday that George H.W. Bush, the father of President Bush, works for the bin Laden family business in Saudi Arabia through the Carlyle Group, an international consulting firm. The senior Bush had met with the bin Laden family at least twice. (Other top Republicans are also associated with the Carlyle group, such as former Secretary of State James A. Baker.) The terrorist leader Osama bin Laden had supposedly been “disowned” by his family, which runs a multi-billion dollar business in Saudi Arabia and is a major investor in the senior Bush’s firm. Other reports have questioned, though, whether members of his Saudi family have truly cut off Osama bin Laden. Indeed, the Journal also reported yesterday that the FBI has subpoenaed the bin Laden family business’s bank records. Judicial Watch earlier this year had strongly criticized President Bush’s father’s association with the Carlyle Group, pointing out in a March 5 statement that it was a “conflict of interest (which) could cause problems for America’s foreign policy in Middle East and Asia.” Judicial Watch called for the senior Bush to resign from the firm then. “This conflict of interest has now turned into a scandal. The idea of the President’s father, an ex-president himself, doing business with a company under investigation by the FBI in the terror attacks of September 11 is horrible. President Bush should not ask, but demand, that his father pull out of the Carlyle Group,” stated Judicial Watch Chairman and General Counsel Larry Klayman.... --Judicial Watch, 9/28/01



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Part Four : Why Did Bush Withdraw From Treaty Talks On Cleaning Up Money Laundering?
"Just a few weeks ago, the Bush administration -- another group well-watered by the murky flow of offshore capital -- announced its withdrawal from international treaty talks on cleaning up the money-laundering swamp. Why on earth did they oppose this strike against terrorism and organized crime? Let's ask Joseph Stiglitz, former chief economist of the World Bank -- no "left-wing fifth columnist" he: "The answer is, it's in the interests of some of the monied interests to allow this to occur," he told The Nation in June. "It's not an accident; it could have been shut down at any time."

"And this week, the Bush administration finally reversed the long-standing conservative appeasement of wealthy murderers, at least in part, by freezing the financial assets of Bin Laden and his associates and threatening to, er, bar any foreign countries and banks from U.S. financial markets if they didn't cooperate with investigators. Of course, it took them 13 days to get around to blocking the cash flow of their "prime suspect" -- but maybe some of their comfortably entwined High Finance pals needed time to get untangled before the freeze. Oh well, better late than never, right?" --Chris Floyd, 9/28/01



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Part Five : Daddy Bush's Campaign Manager (Nixon's "Jew-Counter") Has Carlyle Connections
"Fred Malek received his 15 minutes of fame in the 1970s as deputy director of CREEP (Committee to Re-elect the President), the Nixon White House operation behind Watergate. Unlike many of his former associates, Malek walked--but not out of Washington. After lying low for a time, he made his political comeback as a leader in the Republican Party in the late 1980s, only to resign as deputy chairman of the Republican National Committee in 1988 when an ugly incident from his past came to light: At Nixon's behest, he had drawn up a list of Jews in the Bureau of Labor Statistics, where Nixon thought a "Jewish cabal" was out to get him. Nonetheless, Malek rebounded yet again in 1992 as campaign manager for the Bush/Quayle ticket. --MOJO.

A Continuation Of Part Two..."Can it be true that Bush and Major hire themselves out as props, without realizing what Carlyle deals they might be abetting? To schmooze without being aware of the end results? In any event, they did not have to explain their presence in Saudi Arabia, for both had been invited to speak at an economic forum in Jeddah. Bush and Major were also received by King Fahd. "But for part of the time they were just with us," says the Carlyle source. According to two sources familar with the mission, Carlyle executives were focusing on the telephone system deal. In 1998 the Saudi government announced it was privatizing the kingdom's phone service, and the Saudis have been seeking foreign investors. Several companies from around the world have expressed interest. SBC has been looking at this potential deal for about a year and brought in well-wired Carlyle as a partner.

"It might not trouble the (supposedly) unknowing Bush that he is aiding SBC, a Texas-based company run by executives who have contributed nearly $50,000 to George W. Bush's gubernatorial and presidential campaigns. Governor Bush's administration has also been supportive of SBC, which spends more on lobbying in Texas than any other corporation (at least $5 million in 1999). In December the Texas Public Utilities Commission, comprising three Bush appointees, approved SBC's highly controversial request to enter the long-distance market in that state. Critics of SBC complained that the company had not opened up the local market as it had promised, and after the PUC granted its OK, the Justice Department, citing SBC's anticompetitive ways, urged the Federal Communications Commission to reject the company's long-distance application. (By the way, SBC once donated $400,000 to a reading initiative promoted by Govenor Bush.)...

"It's pretty obvious," says one person with knowledge of the trip. "Carlyle wanted to open up doors, and they bring in Bush and Major, who saved the Saudis' ass in the Gulf War. If you got these guys coming in for SBC or any other company, those companies are going to have a pretty good chance." The Carlyle connection runs in the family. In 1990, a year after Carlyle acquired Caterair, a large airline-catering firm, Fred Malek, a longtime Bush associate [and elsewhere described as an advisor to Carlyle], helped place George W. on the board of Caterair. And this past fall the Bush campaign received a scare when one of its lead fundraisers, GOP lobbyist Wayne Berman, was implicated in a scandal involving Carlyle. On September 23 former Connecticut State Treasurer Paul Silvester pleaded guilty to federal racketeering charges regarding his handling of state pension funds. Berman pocketed about $1 million from Carlyle for helping the firm win $100 million in pension investments from Silvester. Shortly before Silvester left office in early 1999, Berman allegedly promised him a job while angling for another $50 million investment in a Carlyle fund. Berman then hired Silvester for a position in the consulting firm he operates with former Senator Alfonse D'Amato. After Berman's role in the affair became public, the Bush campaign announced that Berman, who had worked in the Bush Administration, was no longer fundraising for George W. Carlyle has been good to the Bushes. But if the Berman-Carlyle scandal spreads, it may draw more attention to the back-scratching, deal-making financial-political world in which the Bush family and their friends have flourished. That won't be good for the son of Carlyle's most famous meet-and-greeter." --David Corn, The Nation, 3/27/00"
=======================================================================
And, who's to say we are NOT in some ways goose stepping today, or at least the increased militarization of the police would seem like they are turning them into a cross between the Nazi SS and the SA.
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v99.n995.a11.html
"POLICE DEVELOP MILITARY MIND SET"
"With Aid Of Pentagon, Civilian Forces Acquiring Army-Style Look, Approach

ON FEB. 28, 1993, 76 agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms ( BATF ) assaulted Mount Carmel, the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, firing MP-5 machine guns continuously and throwing percussion grenades -- just to execute an arrest-and-search warrant.

The agents had been trained in military assault tactics by Green Berets at Fort Hood, Texas. Although the BATF's lengthy search warrant had not mentioned drugs, the agency nevertheless reported a drug connection -- a methamphetamine lab -- so it could receive free advice, training and equipment from the Pentagon. No proof of a drug lab was found after the attack.

Moreover, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which took control of what was to become a 51-day siege at Mount Carmel, received advice, training and equipment from the military. Delta Force advisers played a key role in the FBI's tank and chemical warfare attack on the Davidian residence April 19, 1993, and federal agents acquired military training to drive the M-60 tanks that inserted CS gas into the compound and the Bradley Fighting Vehicles that shot nearly 400 40-mm canisters of CS gas through the walls of the structure. The FBI now admits to firing pyrotechnic devices into portion of the compound.

The military's role in the Waco episode was perfectly legal. A report by the General Accounting Office, Congress' investigative arm, says the standard for justifying the military's role in drug investigations has not been clearly established. Consequently, military officials have "considerable discretion" in deciding to assist civilian police agencies.

Since 1981, when Congress passed the Military Cooperation with Law Enforcement Official Act, the military has become increasingly involved in civilian law enforcement, and has been encouraged to share equipment, training, facilities and technology with civilian enforcement agencies.

During the past 20 years, under the direct political sponsorship of elected representatives in Congress and under successive presidents, the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 -- a law designed to keep the military out of civilian affairs -- has been diluted by exceptions tied to the war on drugs. In 1986, President Ronald Reagan officially designated drug trafficking as a "national security" threat. A year later, Congress set up an administrative apparatus, with a toll-free number, to encourage local civilian agencies to take advantage of military assistance.

In 1989, President George Bush created six regional joint task forces in the Department of Defense to act as liaisons between police and the military. ( The BATF and FBI relied on Joint Task Force 6 for help in the Waco assaults ).

Wartime arms in peacetime

A few years later, Congress ordered the Pentagon to make military surplus hardware available

to state and local police for enforcement of drug laws -- which the military has done, free of charge. And in 1994, the Department of Defense and the Department of Justice signed an agreement enabling the military to transfer wartime technology to local police departments for peacetime use in American neighborhoods, against American citizens.

This sharing of military resources with civilian agencies has not only gone to federal agencies but also to police bureaus across the nation, from the huge Los Angeles Police Department to the seven-member department in Jasper, Fla. ( population 2,000 ). The result has been an alarming militarization of local law enforcement. Most hardware has been funneled to special paramilitary units in departments known as Special Weapons and Tactics ( SWAT ) teams, contributing to what criminal justice scholar Peter Kraska has called the "militarization of Mayberry."

Since the early 1980s, SWAT teams have proliferated. A 1997 study by Kraska showed that 90 percent of cities with populations of more than 50,000 had paramilitary units, as did three-quarters of those with populations under 50,000. The Pentagon has been equipping those units with everything from M-16 automatic rifles to grenade launchers. Jasper's seven-member force, for example, has been the beneficiary of seven M-16s, 23 helicopters, an armored personnel carrier, two C-12 aircraft and a bomb robot. Los Angeles asked for, and got, 600 M-16s after a February 1997 shootout with bank robbers carrying automatic weapons and wearing body armor.

Between 1995 and 1997, the military handed over 1.2 million pieces of surplus military hardware to police SWAT teams. But more important, about half of SWAT members get their training from active-duty military personnel, some of them from the Navy SEALS or Army Rangers. Like those special operations units, the SWAT team is structured as a combat unit, with a commander, a tactical leader, a scout, a sniper and so on.

This, in combination with full battle dress of lace-up combat boots, full-body armor in black or camouflage, Kevlar helmets and -- for a touch of impersonality -- "Ninja" hoods, has produced a military mind set in many police departments.

In the military mind set, the "drug war" has moved from metaphor to real life, with American streets as the "front," American citizens as the "enemy" and law enforcement officers as the warriors.

This mind set has been fed by the Department of Justice. "So let me welcome you to the kind of war our police fight every day," Attorney General Janet F. Reno told a group of defense and intelligence experts in 1994, in preparation for a technology transfer agreement. "And let me challenge you to turn your skills that served us so well in the Cold War to helping us with the war we're now fighting daily in the streets of our towns and cities across the nation."

SWAT units, originally created in the 1960s to deal with special situations such as snipings, hijackings and hostage takings, have become an everyday part of American policing.

As crime rates have plummeted, these paramilitary units have expanded their original mission and are deployed for routine police functions such as "warrant work" -- i.e., no-knock entries to serve arrest or search warrants. Other teams, such as the 34-member SWAT unit in Fresno, Calif., are used -- in full battle dress, armed with machine guns -- to patrol the inner-city "war zone."

What's wrong with this picture? Plenty. A soldier and a law enforcement officer serve completely different functions, and fusing their identities presents a serious, long-term danger to a free society. A soldier does not think; he initiates violence on command and doesn't worry about Miranda rights. Being a killing machine is necessary to the survival of the warrior, and to the survival of the nation at war.

A law enforcement officer, however, is a citizen like the rest of us, subject to the same laws. The job of the police is to react to the violence of others, to apprehend criminal suspects and deliver them over to a court of law. This defines a nation under the rule of law -- as opposed to a nation under martial law -- and the distinction goes as far back as 13th-century common law.

When police act like soldiers, bad things happen, not only to the nation's social health but to innocent individuals. Until a few years ago, for example, killings by

Albuquerque's SWAT unit were "just off the charts," said an outside investigator, Sam Walker, a criminal justice professor at the University of Nebraska.

The team's final killing -- before it was disbanded and a new police chief was installed -- was of 33-year-old Larry Harper, a sad, desperate man with no criminal record, intent on committing suicide.

When the frightened family called local police, SWAT snipers showed up, followed Harper to the edge of a park and, from 43 feet away, shot and killed the cowering man. According to Walker, the Albuquerque SWAT team "had an organizational culture … that led them to escalate situations upward rather than de-escalating."

Excessive force

The 10-member La Plata County, Colo., SWAT team stormed Samuel Heflin's 46-acre ranch in Bayfield in April 1996, searching for evidence related to a barroom brawl: a cowboy hat, a shirt and a cigarette pack. In the process, an 8-year-old boy playing basketball was forced down at gunpoint, as was a 14-year-old boy.

Sheriff's deputies then followed screaming Shelby Heflin, 4, into the house with a laser-sighted weapon pointed at her back. The SWAT team ordered everyone to lie face down, and when Heflin asked to see a search warrant, he was told to "shut the f--- up." The family has filed an excessive force suit against the county's SWAT team.

In 1997, the SWAT team of Dinuba, Calif. ( population 15,000 ), broke into the home of Ramon Gallardo, looking for his son, and shot the unarmed Gallardo 15 times. A jury awarded the family $12.5 million, which exceeded the town's insurance coverage. The town has disbanded its SWAT unit.

There have been other victims of wrongful deaths, including the Rev. Accelyne Williams, who died from a heart attack when Boston's SWAT unit raided the wrong apartment, and 64-year-old Mario Paz, shot twice in the back when the El Monte, Calif., SWAT team blew the locks off his doors with a shotgun, looking for someone who had used that address.

Doubtless the will be more such cases, and citizens will grow warier of the law enforcement establishment. The military mentality, along with machine guns and grenade launchers, have no place in a free society.

When police think and act like soldiers, they generate mistrust among their constituents, which in turn pushes law enforcement agencies further into an elitist, impersonal enclave.

Luckily, our democratic process has remedies. Congress can, and should, eliminate exceptions to the Posse Comitatus Act and redefine the military's mission to defend the nation against foreign aggressors. Joint Task Forces in the Department of Defense should be abolished, and police agencies -- federal, state and local -- should be forced to return military hardware, especially automatic weapons, or destroy it.

Americans have to ask themselves whether the "drug war" is really worth altering our society beyond recognition. Defining our nation's drug woes as a public health problem, and not as a crime problem, might be a start.

Diane Cecilia Weber is a Virginia writer on criminal justice and the Second Amendment. This article has been adapted from a longer paper published by the Cato Institute, "WarriorCops: The Ominous Growth of Paramilitarism in American Police Departments."

From the above, it is clear that the Bush family has been closely tied with both Nazi interests and with the Bin Laden family. Good cop/bad cop and the Hegellian dialectic are not strangers to this bunch.

Now, should we all follow in lockstep with Arbustocito (Spanish for "little bush") and this cabinent, members of the Project for a New Amercian Century?
I think not. When a government is corrupt, that is the time a "true" patriot must oppose it. But, let's look at what people more famous than I have said about patriotism, liberty, and the like.
--------------------------QUOTES------------------------------------------
George Washington:
I do not mean to exclude altogether the idea of patriotism. I know it exists, and I know it has done much in the present contest. But I will venture to assert, that a great and lasting war can never be supported on this principle alone. It must be aided by a prospect of interest, or some reward.

H. L. Mencken:
The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.

Henry Steele Commager:
Men in authority will always think that criticism of their policies is dangerous. They will always equate their policies with patriotism, and find criticism subversive.

From one of the highest Nazi leaders we read this:
"Hermann Goering:
Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
-Hermann Goering

"It behooves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others." - Thomas Jefferson, 1803.

"Law enforcement, however, in defeating the criminal, must maintain inviolate the historic liberties of the individual." - Ibid.

"Liberty's chief foe is theology." - Charles Bradlaugh.

"No man should be in politics unless he would honestly rather not be there." - Henry Brook Adams, The Education of Henry Adams, 1907.

"The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted." - James Madison: Tribune, London.

"The greater the power, the more dangerous the abuse." - Speech, House of Commons, February 7, 1771.

"Power gradually extirpates from the mind every humane and gentle virtue." - Edmund Burke, A Vindication of Natural Society.

David Hume:
The heights of popularity and patriotism are still the beaten road to power and tyranny; flattery to treachery; standing armies to arbitrary government; and the glory of God to the temporal interest of the clergy.

Edward R. Murrow:
We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.

Mark Twain:
The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Mark Twain:
Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified and excusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let me label you as they may.

Rabbi Sherwin Wine:
There are two visions of America. One precedes our founding fathers and finds its roots in the harshness of our puritan past. It is very suspicious of freedom, uncomfortable with diversity, hostile to science, unfriendly to reason, contemptuous of personal autonomy. It sees America as a religious nation. It views patriotism as allegiance to God. It secretly adores coercion and conformity. Despite our constitution, despite the legacy of the Enlightenment, it appeals to millions of Americans and threatens our freedom.

The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of reason. It loves freedom, encourages diversity, embraces science and affirms the dignity and rights of every individual. It sees America as a moral nation, neither completely religious nor completely secular. It defines patriotism as love of country and of the people who make it strong. It defends all citizens against unjust coercion and irrational conformity.

This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society. We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it against all its enemies.

Samuel Johnson:
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

and , one of my faves from a past president and military man involved in the Spanish American War...the Rough Rider himself...

"Theodore Roosevelt:
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. (1918) (Cool)"

I agree Teddy, I agree...and could not have said it better, and is more true in the 21st century than the 20th.
~Code
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 1:47 PM
Ironically, Teddy let Pearl Harbor happen and lied numerous times in order to gain that support for WWII. Maybe Shrub just has too much respect for us :p (Joking) I'll read it all of that after I eat something.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 1:48 PM
ok, not Teddy.. Franklin. Sorry.
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 1:55 PM
Code I'm not suporting Bush here, I'm talking about our mentality in this country where we seem to want everything and not willing to pay the price. The WWII reference reflects pacifism vs action. The Axis was a threat and the price had to be paid. Bush's family history is irrelevant. how many people on this thread can trace family history to where slavery was involved. or members of the KKK, communists tory's etc. hardly anyone is imune from some kind of past family evil. Many people and country's profited from the Nazi's and from Sadam including us. I'm not arguing the politics of the issue, I don't care one bit about the politics. All I'm saying is that we need to stop undermining what our troops over there is doing. and much of the peace movement I see is a direct reflection of the 60's. There's a lot more going on over in IRAQ then what the media is showing us. most of it is good. I have enormous respect for peace but NO respect for Peace at any price.

I would never vote for Kerry under any circumstances. I would've voted for John Edwards or Wesley Clark hands down. I've been looking at third party candidates as a result. but because of all this anti war stuff I've been seeing everywhere I'm seriously thinking of going for Bush again.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 1:56 PM
And, on Nam...what good did we do there?
I had a business partner who was wounded in Nam...had a metal plate in his skull from it...had outbursts of temper and constant nightmares and his wife said he had never been right since he got back. He told me about seeing sadistic acts on our side and the Viets side. One of my best friends in undergrad school was there under the GI Bill from his service in Nam. He never liked to talk about his service, but one time, did tell me that it was standard practice for his fellow soldiers to kill young Viets (they called them "gooks") in various ways, one of their favorites was to run motorcycles into them to "watch their head pop off"...this guy was TRYING to put Nam behind him...but, look at all the Vietnam Vets against the War...

Did we keep South Vietnam "free" by having our troops killed, their troops killed, spraying Agent Orange around their country, poisoning it... Is this country better for having troops get hooked on drugs in Nam and coming back here to a country that wanted to forget them?

If you enter into a War, it should be for a good reason. Ask yourself why the USA waited so long to enter WWII...Ask yourself why many, many Nazis were brought here after the War and patriated here under Operation Paperclip. Why did the Vatican act as an escape conduit for many high ranking Nazis to Argentina and to Switzerland after the war. Why the Swiss act in World War I to help German cannon operators using the Paris gun/cannon, to strike targets in Paris France....

The farther into the rabbit hole you go...the more uneasy facts you discover.

No man or woman should die for nothing. As Patton said, he didn't want our soldiers dying for their country..he wanted them to make the other poor bastard die for his!
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:07 PM
To say that the Bush history is irrelevant flies in the face of having two of them be the leader of our country and to have an effect on what happens...
that whole nonsense about George the Second referring to Saddam as the guy that "tried to kill my Dad" showed it DOES matter. Corruption in high places matters...the fact that we have Presidents related to each other is concerning to me, since it gives an almost appearance of attempted dynastic rule.

The relatedness of presidents is far more involved than you think.
http://www.who2.com/relatedpresidents.html
George W. Bush isn't the first American president to be related to a previous president. Many former presidents were distant cousins, especially during the first 100 years of the Republic when the country's population (and the pool of likely candidates) was much smaller than today. Even Herbert Hoover and Richard Nixon were distant cousins.

Bush and his father George Bush, however, are one of few combinations to share close blood ties. Here's a closer look at that select group.


JOHN ADAMS (1797-1801) and JOHN QUINCY ADAMS (1825-1829) were, like the Bushes, father and son. The elder Adams was the nation's second president, having served as vice president under George Washington. He was also a second cousin to Revolutionary firebrand Samuel Adams. John Quincy Adams was elected to the House of Representatives in 1830, becoming the only president to serve in Congress after his term as chief executive. His eldest son, George Washington Adams, is the only presidential child ever named after George Washington; he makes an appearance in our loop Death By Yacht. John and John Quincy Adams were also great-grandfather and grandfather (respectively) of the historian and author Henry Adams.


WILLIAM HENRY HARRISON (1841-1841) and BENJAMIN HARRISON (1889-1893) were grandfather and grandson. The elder Harrison is famous for the brevity of his term: he died after one month in office, the victim of a bad cold contracted at his inaugural. 13 other men held the office of president between the two Harrisons -- the largest span for any of the closely-related presidents. The younger Harrison also has the distinction of serving his one term between the two terms of Grover Cleveland (1885-1889 and 1893-1897).


THEODORE ROOSEVELT (1901-1909) and FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT (1933-1945) share a famous name but were only distantly related: they were fifth cousins. Teddy Roosevelt was more closely related to Franklin's wife Eleanor, who was his niece. (She was the daughter of Teddy's brother Elliot.) Bonus relatives: Martin Van Buren was a third cousin twice removed to Theodore Roosevelt, and Zachary Taylor (1849-1850) was a fourth cousin thrice removed to FDR. The Roosevelts were the only two presidents in this loop (to date) to serve more than one term.


GEORGE BUSH (1989-1993) and GEORGE W. BUSH (2001-) are separated only by the two terms of Bill Clinton, who defeated the elder Bush in the elections of 1992. The two Bush administrations are close enough to have some advisors and officials in common, including Dick Cheney (secretary of defense under the elder Bush, vice president under George W. Bush.) There's also a canine connection: George W. Bush's springer spaniel Spot is a daughter of Millie, famous "First Dog" under Bush the elder.


Close Call #1: WILLIAM HOWARD TAFT (1909-1913) was the father of Robert Taft, who became a powerful Republican senator from Ohio. Robert Taft was a leading candidate for the GOP nomination in 1952, but he was narrowly beaten by war hero Dwight Eisenhower. Thus was a Taft dynasty denied. Eisenhower went on to win the presidency in a landslide. (Bonus connection: Eisenhower's Democratic opponent was Adlai Stevenson, whose grandfather was vice president under Grover Cleveland.)


Close Call #2: JOHN F. KENNEDY was assassinated in 1963 and succeeded by Lyndon Baines Johnson (1963-69). In 1968 Johnson announced that he would not seek another term, throwing the Democratic nomination open to other challengers. Kennedy's younger brother Robert F. Kennedy jumped into the race. RFK won Democratic primaries in California, Indiana and Nebraska before he too was shot by an assassin, Sirhan Sirhan, in June 1968. (The November election eventually was won by GOP candidate Richard Nixon.) Had the younger Kennedy's candidacy succeeded, he and John Kennedy would have been the first brothers to be president.


Close Call #3: Kansas senator BOB DOLE won the Republican nomination for president in 1996. He stepped down from the Senate to press his campaign, but was defeated in the general election by incumbent Bill Clinton. Three years later his wife ELIZABETH DOLE threw her own hat into the ring, forming an exploratory committee for a run at the GOP nomination. She gave up the race even before the New Hampshire primaries, succumbing to eventual president George W. Bush. But the Doles became the first husband and wife to run for president. "

I think it is relevant if the Bush's were involved closely with the Bin Ladens, and if the CIA was responsbile for arming and training them. To say it doesn't matter just seems to ignore the dynamics about the way the world works...

"It's not only what you know, but also, WHO you know".
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:09 PM
Oh and apparently Bush and Kerry are distantly related cousins...estimates range from third to 12th cousins...both are born up north...(I say up north cuz I'm down south)
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:15 PM
nam was a mistake, and the antiwar movement had legitimacy. It went too far and made the serious mistake of using the troops as pawns. then treating them like crap. that's whats happening today. not that the movement is wrong, but the way it's being conducted. The majority of the public was for the Iraq war, now the majority is against it. that tells me there are a lot of wishy washy people out there who have no stomach for paying the price of doing what they believe in. I would have a lot more respect for them if they would've just said no right off the bat and politically forced Bush to back down.

Once you commit to something you must follow through or comprimise to follow through with the end goals otherwise we're just inviting more 9/11's.

Do people honestly think that if we just sat and cried about our losses, accepted all the support from the world and tried to rebuild and go on without even going overseas to stop the mechinism that created it that they would leave us alone?we can argue all we want but Iraq was an important element in the islamic terrorist movement. weather it was directly involved in 9/11 is doubtful.

I personally believed Iraq was necessary and still do. I will not debate that point any further because that won't accoplish anything.

I'm just trying to point out as I did in many of my previous posts that we should not contribute to the demoralization of the troops by our rhetoric and that's exactly what we are doing.
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:17 PM
sorry code it is irrelevant in what I'm debating. that's the treatment and demorilazation of the troops. the other things you are debating I have no intrest in. My intrest is how my son and his comrads feel and that's all. Right now they feel alone from the public.
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:25 PM
"Iraq was an important element in the islamic terrorist movement"

No it wasn't, but it sure is now. Oops!

"weather it was directly involved in 9/11 is doubtful."

Bush Disavows Hussein-Sept. 11 Link

"No, we've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with September the 11th," the president said yesterday after a meeting at the White House with lawmakers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25571-2003Sep17?language=printer
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:26 PM
that's your view, this is mine. period
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:27 PM
I agree, that many opinions here are diffrent.

Several have argued that the loss of life to US troops is light.

I choose not to argue that point.

This article is very relevant to this forum however. My attention was drawn to the article not because of the pictures, but how the pictures were to be seen by the american public.

In my opinion, everyone in this debate has a stake in this.

So let us decide here in this forum, how much control over this war and the next should be given to the press, and what kind of controls should be placed over them, and what kind of information they should release.

While we are at it, lets cross all opinions of the public to the chosen press releases, against the, "accepted opinion", to find terrorist.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:28 PM
I bet your son wouldn't feel so alone if he was back home...and that's what we are saying....bring em home!
Otherkyodylee
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:28 PM
compmore - If you re-read your own words, we agree on many points.

1) "some don't" [see a reason to see each other die]

2) "just there to do a job" & "most do their jobs" [i.e., they aren't there for any noble or higher purpose]

3) "they do not feel the public supports them" [100% agreement here]

4) "They know what fighting and dying is all about, they were trained for it. they had no illusions." [Absolutely correct in that they were trained for it. But, training for an eventuality is not the same as, and does not equal, the reality.]

5) "we should try to make a difference." [I agree, we just disagree on how.]

We disagree:

1) "I am sickened to death by the peace at any price." [This is not my position & I have never stated my position as such. I am not a dove. I am opposed to this particular war for the reasons I have stated. We are not there on behalf of the Iraqi people or the American people. We are there to further two men's (a father and a son) political legacy. That's all.]

2) "I thank God this attitude didn't prevail in the 40's or we'd all be goose stepping right now." [This war in Iraq in no way whatsoever parallels WWII and you know that. If you want a parallel Korea (or even Vietnam) would be closer.]

3) "craw [sic] in a hole incase someone might hurt us mentality this country seems to have." [No, not at all. But if we are going to sacrifice some of our country's finest and bravest, it better well be for a damned good noble and honorable reason. This war in Iraq is neither.]

Lastly - I am confused by your statement below and am really looking for clarification:

"the antiwar rhetoric IS affecting morale. My son's entire unit feels that way."

But then you go on to say:

"he's there to do a job and doesn't care what the public thinks anymore."

My question is: If he doesn't care what the public thinks, then how can what the public thinks (i.e., antiwar rhetoric) affect his morale?
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:28 PM
They're stuck over there fighting, and the anti-war movement is basically telling them that nobody wants them there. That would be a big reason to feel like shit.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:30 PM
prior to the War, Saddam didn't give a damn about Islam really...and the fundamentalists hated him because he was so westernized...and did so much to hurt his people...it was only when we came against him, as westerners, that the islamists, under bin laden, joined in his support...and you have to separate the Shiites from the others....these sects fight amongst themselves as well
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:31 PM
"that's your view, this is mine. period"

If you have some facts to back up the statement that Iraq was an important element in the islamic terrorist movement, I would find it interesting to read. The terrorist groups are Islamic fundamentalists and never liked Iraq because it was a secular government.
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:33 PM
"prior to the War, Saddam didn't give a damn about Islam really...and the fundamentalists hated him because he was so westernized...and did so much to hurt his people...it was only when we came against him, as westerners, that the islamists, under bin laden, joined in his support"

Thank you!
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:34 PM
My freedom and safety is endangered much more by Bush, Ashcroft, and Cheney, than it ever was by Bin LADEN, Saddam, and that nut in North Korea.

I am far more worried about abuse under the Patriot Act than I ever will be by some homicidal despot...

Saddam couldn't take my constitutional rights away....but Georgie Porgie is doing the best he can to do that....
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:35 PM
This is the effect of Dubya's propaganda on the American people:

Poll: 70% believe Saddam, 9-11 link

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-06-poll-iraq_x.htm
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:38 PM
My question is: If he doesn't care what the public thinks, then how can what the public thinks (i.e., antiwar rhetoric) affect his morale?

It's called denial. If he dwells on it and lets it get to him he looses his edge. deep down it bothers him.
The attitude of pacifism is the same during WWII as it is today. the wars are different and for different reasons but the result would be the same. they'll keep hitting us and hitting us whenever they want. Hatred has no logic or reality. it's all perception.

Everyone seems to forget, islamic radicals declared war on us before there ever was a US boot anywhere on mideast soil.


Code he is sickened by this as much as I am. If he is brought home without fulfilling his mission just cause it got difficult and the country lost it's guts and cut and run he will not feel better just cause he's home. he's a professional and is proud of what he's doing. so am I.
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:39 PM
Mroop you have your view and I have mine. I am not a mindless zombiee who accepts propaganda just because we disagree on this
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:43 PM
"If you have some facts to back up the statement that Iraq was an important element in the islamic terrorist movement,"

We already talked about this. Iraq is an important element in STOPPING the movement. As "geo-strategic military positioning." You said it, remember?
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:43 PM
"Everyone seems to forget, islamic radicals declared war on us before there ever was a US boot anywhere on mideast soil."

FBI Report To Congress

One of the principal goals of Al-Qaeda was to drive the United States armed forces out of Saudi Arabia (and elsewhere on the Saudi Arabian peninsula) and Somalia by violence. Members of Al-Qaeda issued fatwahs (rulings on Islamic law) indicating that such attacks were both proper and necessary.

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress01/caruso121801.htm
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:44 PM
How many FBI members were not on a mission to protect the US from an attack like anthrax, or an airline hijack attack, but involved in some "other" direction of homeland security?
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:45 PM
Islam hasn't really made piece with Christianity in 700 years.

Since I've been in martial arts for 30 years this year, I'm not a pacifist by any means, but, I have to have a damn good reason for putting my life on the line...I don't go around town looking into people's homes and looking for domestic squabbles to get involved in. I'm not the policeman of the world...

And, technically, we are still at war (though not a Congressionaly declared war) with Korea...how long has our mission been going on there...what IS our mission anyway...to set up a puppet gov in Iraq? We've caught Saddam...I'm afraid if your son is not going to get to come home til the mission is over...he will be there a long time. And, if the country has lost its guts, maybe it's because of the gutless wonder in the oval office...AWOL and with his daddy pulling strings so he wouldn't have to go in country like the poor kids...

By the way, Compmore, I'm proud of your son too, and I do pray he returns safe and sound my friend!
~CW
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:47 PM
i meant peace, not peace...btw...the weather sucks here...hope it is better where you guys are!
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:47 PM
i meant peace, not peace...btw...the weather sucks here...hope it is better where you guys are!
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:47 PM
"We already talked about this. Iraq is an important element in STOPPING the movement. As "geo-strategic military positioning." You said it, remember?"

That's not what I said at all. Here was the quote:

It is simple geo-strategic military positioning, a classic Cold War model, aimed at punishing future enemies and rewarding allies by leveraging regional oil flow, water allocations, and weapons development. "

The Iraq war had nothing to do with terrorism. The proposed Mosul to Israel pipeline maybe. : )
Otherkyodylee
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:47 PM
OK compmore - Since we agree on one important issue: That our troops feel not supported by the American public.

Let me ask this. You imply that the troops don't want to come home. That they want to stay in Iraq and complete their mission.

First question: What exactly is their mission? No generalities. Military missions have targets and objectives. What is theirs?

Second question: What exactly do they want to see the American public do to support them? No generalities. Give details.
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:47 PM
if it makes you feel better I still blame Bill.
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:49 PM
Thanks Code.

Mroop they declared war on us long before that
Otherkyodylee
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:51 PM
Code - Ha, we think alike. I didn't even see your comment about what is our mission in Iraq when I asked it myself! :) (Smile)
Advancedmroop
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:52 PM
"How many FBI members were not on a mission to protect the US from an attack like anthrax, or an airline hijack attack, but involved in some "other" direction of homeland security?"

There were enough FBI members to stop 9/11. They just botched the job. One example - ignoring the Phoenix memo. You can read it here when the site comes back up (it look like it isdown now):

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/phoenix-memo/
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:59 PM
well I never ment to imply they don't want to come home. they do. I own a business, I go to work. I'd rather be home but it's my job and I take it seriously. it's a poor comparrison I know but that's how a professional soilder feels. not all the soilders are in it for the long all and most do want to come home. what I'm trying to say is that they want to feel pride in what they do, that they do a good job, and are appreciated for it. yes they want to come home. I want my son home more than anyone here knows and for different reasons then you may think.

personally the general mission of us being there is another topic of debate I really wish to avoid. each individual soilder has their own missions that their units engage in to fulfill a larger overall mission. they are a piece of the puzzle. they don't care generally about the whole puzzle, only that they fulfill their individual duties.

to answer your question I don't know their specific missions. they aren't allowed to talk about it. the overall mission, or lack of it,has been defined by our leaders. so you know what I know.

BTW kyodylee I do agree with you more than you know and you're right. there is more than one thing that ruins morale, I just feel the major area of support for our troops (the public) shouldn't contribute to it. that's the whole focus on why I started this discussion
Otherkyodylee
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 2:59 PM
BTW, I think Hermit brought up a very important point about censorship that should not be overlooked.

"This article is very relevant to this forum however. My attention was drawn to the article not because of the pictures, but how the pictures were to be seen by the american public.

"So let us decide here in this forum, how much control over this war and the next should be given to the press, and what kind of controls should be placed over them, and what kind of information they should release."
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:00 PM
The memory hole site has been down since before I posted this article. I heard something about the gov trying to stop the site owner...maybe they are doing a DDOS attack on the site....

and, another person was negatively impacted after taking pics
Full article at http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht..._coffin22m.html

A military contractor has fired Tami Silicio, a Kuwait-based cargo worker whose photograph of flag-draped coffins of fallen U.S. soldiers was published in Sunday's edition of The Seattle Times.

Silicio was let go yesterday for violating U.S. government and company regulations, said William Silva, president of Maytag Aircraft, the contractor that employed Silicio at Kuwait International Airport.

"I feel like I was hit in the chest with a steel bar and got my wind knocked out. I have to admit I liked my job, and I liked what I did," Silicio said.

Her photograph, taken earlier this month, shows more than 20 flag-draped coffins in a cargo plane about to depart from Kuwait. Since 1991, the Pentagon has banned the media from taking pictures of caskets being returned to the United States.

AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:00 PM
Let me ask this. You imply that the troops don't want to come home. That they want to stay in Iraq and complete their mission.

"First question: What exactly is their mission? No generalities. Military missions have targets and objectives. What is theirs?

'It is simple geo-strategic military positioning, a classic Cold War model, aimed at punishing future enemies and rewarding allies by leveraging regional oil flow, water allocations, and weapons development.'

As far as targets, I think the troops are usually told what their targets are. The military tries sneakily "hide" most of that information from us.


"Second question: What exactly do they want to see the American public do to support them? No generalities. Give details."

I can't say I understand the point of the question. Most importantly they don't need to be pissed on by the anti-war movment. How about "Good job guys, keep going, do your mission and come home" instead of "What the hell are you guys doing? Dying? What? Why? Come home! Stop it!"
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:00 PM
haha. blame bill. I don't blame anyone
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:01 PM
damn Kyodylee...we DO think alike :) (Smile)
BTW...I put one of those danasoft.com IP displaying deals at
codewarrior.dmusic.net after I saw yours....cool :) (Smile)
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:07 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/24/iraq.main/index.html
"BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- An explosion killed at least 12 Iraqis Saturday in a crowded market in Baghdad's Sadr City -- one of a series of attacks that left 26 people dead, including five U.S. soldiers.

The blast, which wounded at least 25 people, prompted a mass demonstration in the streets of the largely Shiite neighborhood, a stronghold of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

Video of the scene showed a mangled vehicle, surrounded by mobs of angry men shouting at the photographer. Other Iraqis collected body parts from pools of blood on the street. A dead horse also lay on the curb beside a street-side vendor.

Elsewhere, five U.S. soldiers were killed and six wounded Saturday morning in a rocket attack north of Baghdad, a senior coalition official told CNN. "

Comp...I just fear that every day this crap goes on, my friend who is over there and has a family here in Texas, and your son, are closer to being statistics....and I don't want that!
Otherkyodylee
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:09 PM
"to answer your question I don't know their specific missions. they aren't allowed to talk about it. the overall mission, or lack of it,has been defined by our leaders. so you know what I know."

You hit the nail on the head compmore -"the overall mission, or lack of it,has been defined by our leaders"

Exactly. A lack of a clear and specific mission. How can your son complete a mission with unknown parameters?

I have to agree with Code, I'm afraid your son will be there for a very long time if he wants to stay until the mission is complete.

I think you misunderstand my position. I am filled with pride for what your son and every single American soldier, sailor, airman and marine is doing there. They have been put in a no-win situation by an unhonorable leader. I support our troops One Thousand Per Cent. But they don't belong where they are. They need to come home.

I pray for your son to return home safely.
Otherkyodylee
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:10 PM
Code, Wink Wink I saw it! I thought that's where you got it! Lurker...... :) (Smile)
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:10 PM
me neither code. But it's the life he chose for himself. If he didn't feel what he does is important He wouldn't chosen a much safer career. I feel for your friend. I trust you are helping with his family.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:15 PM
"Exactly. A lack of a clear and specific mission. How can your son complete a mission with unknown parameters?"

Read my posts. Or read compmore's again.

"to answer your question I don't know their specific missions. they aren't allowed to talk about it"

That means YOU don't know the objectives. You have no right to know. That in no way means that the troops don't know what they're doing. I'm willing to bet their movement and actions aren't random.
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:22 PM
My neice/nephew, friend/neighbor/coworker, internet aquaintance is not worth:

"It is simple geo-strategic military positioning, a classic Cold War model, aimed at punishing future enemies and rewarding allies by leveraging regional oil flow, water allocations, and weapons development."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am giving a lot of thought to why I volunteered for the suspension of my democratic process when I joined the military.

At the time, it sounded really good on paper, (bennies),and I had nothing else as glamorous lined up for me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This may shock you, but the "Reduction of Armed Forces Act", in 1991 only allowed a small percentage of the millitart for advancement or reinlistment.
Otherkyodylee
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:22 PM
Sherminator - I'm not talking about clearing such and such building or securing a particular road or maintaining control of a certain sector or whatever.

I'm talking about the big picture. What is the overall mission of every single soldier, sailor, airman and marine?

In other words, exactly what are they ALL fighting and dying for?

Simple question.
Advancedcompmore
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:24 PM
kyodylee His missions are specific and he knows what he has to do. He's there to fulfill his individual mission which is a part of the whole.

Look just so you guys know where I'm coming from I'm not a right winger or a left winger. this is important to me because I've never met my son. Circumstances (I won't go into) wouldn't allow me to be there for him. He grew up hating and resenting me. neither of us had the oprotunity to go fishing together, play ball, vacation etc that most fathers and sons do.
I always knew he was there but could do nothing about it. now he's older and contacted me and we've been talking, and sending pictures for a year and a half. before we could meet he went over to Iraq. I'm scared to death I'll never meet him (he's still not sure) this is partly selfish of me cause I want a chance to try to build something after loosing the past 26 years. but I know how important his carer is to him. I'm not a part of his life yet even though he is a part of mine. I support him and everything he is doing there. maybe that's why I'm more sensitve about the support.

I do know you guys support them all but I know there are many people out there who don't and just use them. I respect those who are firm in their views even though we disagree. I can't respect those that are wishy washy. Nuff said, sorry and I'll move on to a different post now.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:31 PM
compmore...you and I are similar in another regard with respect to our son's...I didn't have contact with mine between the time he was age five and 25....so I know what you mean...but luckily, I met my son...

You're a good man Comp...in fact, we have lots of good people here, and caring people...I just wish we had more good and caring people running the country!
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:41 PM
I have never stopped supporting the soldiers overseas, or the families of them here in the US.

I do however firmly believe that the soldiers that fight for the birth of a constitution similar to the one we so freely enjoy, be honored with some mention of thier service.
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:45 PM
not some blurb in the evening edition after the weather.
AdvancedTheSherminator
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 3:47 PM
"what are they ALL fighting and dying for?"

"It is simple geo-strategic military positioning, a classic Cold War model, aimed at punishing future enemies and rewarding allies by leveraging regional oil flow, water allocations, and weapons development." And in doing so, the terrorist threat from overseas will also be greatly diminished.
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 4:02 PM
I managed to do a Screen Capture of my crystal ball..
our next president's picture...
check it out :) (Smile)
http://images2.dmusic.com/users/c/o/d/codewarrior/24807.jpg
AdvancedLachatte
Date: April 24, 2004 @ 10:52 PM
Well, it took awhile, but I read all of the posts...
Looking back to over a year ago when G.W. announced that the U.S. was attacking Iraq, my kids asked me if it was the right thing to do. I had not voted for Bush, but he was our president...he had information that we were not privy to...and we had to back him and hope and pray that he was making the right decisions...That's what I told them.
A lot of information has come out since then. It's making people question the President's motives for going into Iraq and his plans for getting us out. Aside from the opportunists and profiteers, there are many Americans who regularly watch reports from Iraq about "casualties of war."
But we have become sceptical of what the media and our leaders are telling us; we just want to know the truth.
Advancedcarla60626
Date: April 25, 2004 @ 12:02 AM
Me too, Lachatte. I tried to keep an open mind. I listened to Colin Powell's presentation at the UN. I figured, I should trust him. You had to trust someone, it was so out of our control. But the day-by-day buildup of armaments...sending all those troops... everything that Bush and his evil advisors planned; too bad they did not have a clue how it would turn out. And now it is such a mess there. It's sickening. I hate them for ruining our country.
AdvancedLachatte
Date: April 25, 2004 @ 9:54 AM
This subject was debated this morning, on a live news program, on a local TV station, between a syndicated columnist and an editor from The Philadelphia Inquirer newspaper who had published photos. The columnist felt that the media had been unfair to the "senior" President Bush back in '89 and '91 when a split screen showed him clowning with the press or golfing while bodies were being unloaded at Dover Air Base. He is concerned with irresponsiblity by the media. The editor summed it up with a question: Who should decide what the public sees? the government or the media?
AdminCodeWarrior
Date: April 25, 2004 @ 10:13 AM
aren't the media and gov often one and the same (i.e. Fox)....

I say let the public decide...offer DIFFERENT coverage and let the public use the tuning option.
DMembermmnuc3
Date: April 25, 2004 @ 11:19 AM
Not the public, the soldier's families. It's their loved ones.
IntermediatetheHERMlT
Date: April 25, 2004 @ 1:35 PM
poem/hypothosis:

Was this my best?
Does anyone know?
Will I be remembered?
Do I care?

This blinding light distracts me.

I tied my shoes.
I crossed the door.
I think I am.
Here I am.

This blinding light distracts me.

What was this for?
Where was I going?
Who else was there?
Do I care?

This blinding light distracts me.

I was over there.
I once did care.
You are not here.
You still care.

This blinding light catches me.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Be the box.
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