"EDITORIAL: The road to the police state

Must Americans show their 'papers please'?

Some U.S. Supreme Court justices Monday appeared to scoff at a Nevada man's claim that he should not be required to give his name to police.

"I cannot imagine any responsible citizen objecting to giving his name," said law-and-order Justice Antonin Scalia.

"The exercise of a constitutional right should not be incriminating," replied Robert Dolan, a deputy state public defender from Winnemucca.

In 2000, Northern Nevada cattle rancher Larry Hiibel, standing beside his parked truck, was approached by a Humboldt County deputy. The officer asked Mr. Hiibel for proof of identification 11 separate times; in each instance Mr. Hiibel refused, saying he'd done nothing wrong. Finally, Mr. Hiibel was arrested and convicted of resisting and obstructing an officer in the performance of his duties.

By a 4-3 vote, the Nevada Supreme Court rejected Mr. Hiibel's appeal, ruling any privacy right guaranteed by the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is "outweighed by the benefits to officers and community safety" by allowing police to force people to provide ID, anywhere.

But under that logic, what right could not be trumped by "police convenience"? Using his patrol car computer terminal, the modern American police officer can learn more about a citizen from today's government-issued photo ID than was contained in the infamous "travel papers" required of any citizen of the Third Reich.

Read the entire article at:
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Mar-27-Sat-2004/opinion/23516027.html

Yet again, i hate the police. Our justice system is whack.

honestly I'm split on this one. I certinly agree that showing id can violate the constitution to a point, on the other hand if the officer was investigating something or eliminating a suspect He should be allowed to check an individuals ID to do so. Also what if the person looked suspicous, standing in one area too long, appearing to be observing something or someone, is out of place (ie a broken down vechicle in an afluant neighborhood) etc. The police can't do their jobs unless they are permitted to check these things. This Farmer would be the first one to yell and scream if the police couldn't check a suspicous individuals ID and that person ended up kidnapping a little kid or robbed a local store.

I've been known to stand in one area too long...and also sit in one area too long...my problem is always that they forget to tell me how long I am permitted to stand or sit...guess I blend into the background...

And, I hate it when Farmers yell and scream...it messes up my image of them with their wife and holding the pitchfork...that American gothic picture....
oh well...carry on _

Oooops...I just realized, I forgot to carry my papers with me...
YIKES!

I agree with the farmer, HOWEVER, you can bet that the farmer would be the first person screaming if someone was hanging out along the his farm near his cattle for "too long".

Isn't there a law against hanging out with a cow "too long" in Nevada?

I have no idea what makes farmers scream in Nevada...

I understand your point Code, random searches are not a good thing.

but what if you matched a description of a man that robbed a gas station a few miles away, don't they have a right to check you out. what if it was your gas station and you found out the police didn't check out a suspect because they couldn't make him show their ID. Who knows what made the officer ask this guy for ID. perhaps he wasn't sure the famer belonged to the vehicle and wanted to verify he was the owner. Imagine if your truck or car were sitting along the road (broke down, out of gas etc.) and some one came along thinking of breaking in (bad people come in all shapes and sizes, even loving ol granparents) and a cop didn't ask his ID to verify. I know I'd be pretty upset.

Point is the farmer knew he wasn't doing anything wrong but the police officer didn't know who this guy was. they can't read minds so they have to check

You're all under arrest. Under sec 1234 state code for thinking. It is our belief that thinking isn't allowed anymore. Papers Please. I know nothing, Nothing.

police should def have that right...it would be near impossible to do their job if we didn't have to show our id's (not to say it wouldn't rule though)

Ok, this is a very good reason not to support to things you are likely to see come up in the future, National ID cards and Nationalised Health Care. I don't think anyone will like the classic goverment logic of since we are paying the bill we have the right to your information, applied to their medical records.

Better watch out, then - Bush is going to make Scalia the Chief Justice when Rehnquist retires. Bush has also said he'd like to put three or four more just like Scalia on the Supreme Court - and he might have the chance to do exactly that.

On the more immediate topic, I think Police should have the right to ask for an ID if there is a reasonable grounds for them to do so (ie youngish looking kid standing outside a convenience with a 12 pack, the Cop could reasonably infer he might be violating age laws for buying beer). However I think that the average police officer either is not trained in properly identifying when a stop is reasonable and when it crosses the line in to unwarranted harrasment. A higher education standard for uniformed officers would probably be more effective than more laws & lawsuits.

Blue, I don't think you would see any more restraint when it comes to expanding goverment poer from Kerry appointed justices, the whole DC establishment seems to have embraced the concept of "that goverment which governs MOST governs best" they just have their own niches they want to fill first.

comp u hit it right on

comp...I don't think that cops should have the right to demand you to show your papers without "reaonable cause" that there is a reason to force you to identify yourself. For cops to have the power to interrupt your life, intimidate you, demand you "show your papers" (PS...they really should learn German to complete the "look", since so many are dressing like the Polizei...)

Just them "not knowing who your are" is not good enough reason to hassle people. I posted the picture I did, showing a Nazi demanding people show their papers for a reason...what we have to see is the trend...5 states, pursuant to the 5th Circuit's decision, don't have to produce a warrant to search your premises...now, they can demand that, just for the hell of it..they can randomly stop people on the street and demand identification...just because they don't know who you are>?

Folks...this is like Nazi Germany in the 20s and 30s...it's incrementalism...first...you don't mind if I see your papers...then, you must be fingerprinted randomly in transactions (like here...the grocery stores now are demanding your fingerprints for buying groceries if you use a check or credit...)..we're like frogs in lukewarm water with a fire under us...

I was born in 1952...and if people in the 50s were told they had to be fingerprinted to go to the store and get a quart of milk and some groceries, they would have thought they had slipped into Russia by mistake...

Compmore...you're a good guy, and an honest guy...too bad our government is not that way !

Since the courts have decided in various opinions that police have no legal duty to serve and protect us personally, I think we have no duty to melt the laws around them like butter to try to make their jobs easier...

No one is conscripting citizens to be cops...they join on their own accord...and I have no sympathy for anyone who wants to restrict my rights or freedoms....NO ONE!

Why don't we just all log in to the DOJ daily and let them scan our hard drives for infringement of copyright...that's make the Department of Justice's job MUCH easier...and they could share their database with the RIAA...

After all, if you have nothing to hide, why would you mind an online audit>?

SHeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeshhhhhhhhh.

Once one right is lost, it is gone forever to the American people. It's OK they will not abuse it. Well it OK they will not abuse it. It's nothing really until they start putting people up against the wall papers please. Off you go but I have rights. What rights, you have no rights.
Down to Cuba with you. Once they are gone they are lost forever.

As far as what caused the cop to hassle the farmer..comp..buddy...sometimes cops hassle people for either
a) the fun of it
b) they want to exercise their power to make themselves feel superior
c) they might not like the group of people they perceive the person belongs to...such as "hippies", "blacks", "latinos"...or, if you have a liberal bumper sticker...or say a Democratic sticker...they might just hassle you because they don't like your politics....

These guys are not the Goddess of Justice Themis with mirrored shades on...

you mean like ez-wider pappers?

lol

I like 1.25 less to tear... oh those papers. my bad.

I'm gald I'm an old fart. You guys play follow the leader. Not me my rights are hard earned to just give them away. By the people who fought for this country long ago. They wrote the laws where there were checks and balances. Do Not give up your rights. For safety sake for no one is ever safe. Your falling for the government crap.

code I have to respectfully disagree. If I was a cop and investigating a bank robbery, I shouldn't have to tell everyone I check out up front why, it could hamper the investigation for many reasons.

You are 100% right though. Sometimes they do use their powers to harass. should we deny them their right because of the ones that abuse it?? kinda like should we eliminate P2P becasue a few violate the law with it?
I don't trust the govenment to be honest either. I'm certinly not for giving them card blanche. perhaps there should be some kind of legislation outlining what reasonable search entails

I'm just trying to point out that historically, from Roman times til now, when a government starts saying you don't have a right to walk around without having to "stand and deliver" your papers..whether it is in Rome, in pre-war Germany, or in 21st century USA...it's a slippery slope...

First you are asked to do something voluntarily, then laws get passed or court decisions say you must do it...and then they have prison terms if you don't...
This is one case where the comparisons with the Third Reich are not overblown...just these two court decisions are creating a danger to our rights...let's same tomorrow...they make it illegal to say the word "indeterminate"...and you never use it..so you don't object. Next month, they say, if you use the world " cholesterol" and you don't use it much so you don't object...and then they establish a word of the month...a word of the day..

I know this seems far fetched, but it just shows how the slippery slope of loss of your freedom happens...the more you research the way Germany got the way it was under Hitler....the more you appreciate the dangers our freedoms face today...

I have literally won every traffic ticket I ever got because they were bogus. The last one, the cop was there with the city attorney...I got to cross examine him on the stand, and under oath...he lied. He had drawn a diagram of the way the road was laid out, according to him...I had taken actual photos of the area...the city attorney looked at the photos and looked at him as if to say "you lying son of a bitch"...the judge looked at them, and looked at him the same way....because the picture showed he INTENTIONALLY LIED on several aspects of his testimony under oath...I won the case....

I've seen cops lie on several occasions, I've seen them stop and hassle hispanies and blacks on more occasions than I can count...so...
we will have to just disagree...

but, glad to see you today...been wondering where ya been
your pal...
~Code

Code your right history does teach us. We have learn from it, and not repeat it.

typo, hispanics, not "hispanies"

What angered me most, was the judge saw affirmative evidence of perjury on his part, and didn't hold him for lying under oath..different standards for the cops as opposed to civilians I guess.

seems to me that cop should of lost his job.

i'm a young man, not an older one, and this kinda stuff bugs the hell out of me, i agree under certain circumstances, with good reason, someone should be forced to show ID. If there is no good reason, and a cop gave me crap, i'd tell him to go to hell. The 4th Amendment is under attack on multiple fronts now, they'll neuter it but they'l never actually get rid of it, because then people would react. Gotta slowly, and quietly neutralize things like that.

I'm all the way in Code's corner on this one. An essential freedom of privacy and space is required for a democracy to flourish.. I know of several family members and friends who have been stopped for "driving while black".. sometimes people, when frightened, give a too-general description, which law enforcement uses to hassle an alarmingly large amount of folks who may or may not look like the "perp".. a dangerous trend in my book. Are good people going to have to start wearing "patches" on their clothes for ID purposes? I hope not. And, by the way, freedom with anonimity and privacy is a feature of many forums, don't you agree? So why shouldn't it be that way on the street?

Well, there's one GOOD reason to vote Kerry (even if he's far from perfect) -- the makeup of the Supreme Court. I shudder to think what it will look like if Bush is reelected.

one of my ex-wives friend's husband was a cop...he always had plenty of marijuana at his home and smoked up regularly...when he stopped people he would find a reason to search them and if they had weed, he would "confiscate" it...which really meant he took it home for his personal use and his wife's.... he was on ok guy....but he still had that "us against them...thin blue line" mindset....

and Jazz is right about driving while black...about 30 years ago, I had long hair, and I was randomly pulled over and had my car searched and inspected for no reason except I had long hair...

and the funny thing is that since I didn't smoke cigarettes or drink alcohol at all...I was straighter than the people hassling me....

I'm not black, but cops seem to dislike me...lol...and I am such a nice guy...don't know why

lol...my patch would have to be big and colorful, since I'm Jewish, German, and Native American....
btw,,,anyone seen the film on the Sundance channel about Anna Mae, a Native American who was part of AIM and was murdered under mysterious circumstances? A very interesting and revealing documentary about the history of the American Indian Movement.

How many ex-wives do you have Code?

Oh I've been around Code. been reading most of the articles but busy working on my video's got my web site up with the video links. Now I've just gotta add a bunch more I'm working on.

and I do agree with the assement of power abuse. I've seen it too. I guess we just disagree on the approach. I'm back to work

I've had two..one is dead...natural causes, and the other...goodness knows where she is < looking around > ...
nope...she ain't here...lol

sorry, but I have to chime in on this even if I'm late...

comp- "code I have to respectfully disagree. If I was a cop and investigating a bank robbery, I shouldn't have to tell everyone I check out up front why, it could hamper the investigation for many reasons. "

This is one of the oldest methods the cops use to fuck with you. Someone doesn't "look right" so they drive up and demand an ID. I can point to a vast number of homeless people and even a few others who aren't homeless who don't have an ID (afterall why do you need a driver's license if you don't drive) The cops know this up front- I always did. They also know that the average guy in that position isn't going to trust them so they use that to intimidate as well. then they hide behind the bullshit "Failure To Obey A Lawful Order" law and tell you if you don't produce an Id you are going to jail. Next thing you know your in the jug and you didn't do anything wrong. this isn't my imagination, this was practice. everyday, all day.

and if it will make you feel better Code, the cops don't like me either. Some reward huh?

i agree with you so much captdunsel...and I for one appreciate what you said...thank you!

captdunsel...what you said reminded me of an old saying...
"You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride."

I was hoping you'd put in your two cents Captdunsel. I'm not familiar with nor am I involved with lawenforcement in any way. I am a product of the white middle class law abidding upbringing and that's where I get my views. I don't often see things first hand (though I know that the abuse is there so I value first hand imput on subjects like these from people like you and Code. Though I know it's there, it is hard for me to break from that. when I'm asked for ID (I've been pulled over before just because I was driving by a bar at 1am and other things like that) I always give it with no questions. guess It's hard for me to challange the system in this case.

Thanks you two, gives me something to think about however I do believe there has to be respect (if not for the individual) for law enforcement in general. otherwise we'd have an anarchy

That is a scary thought

Anyone who knows me in real life...knows I am one of the most respectful people anyone would want to meet. And, I have always tried to follow the law, even those I disagree with...but, like captdunsel said...the people in law enforcement themselves show disrespect for the people, and for their rights, and yes, for the law. Police often look at defense lawyers and the courts as "the enemy" in the same way that they look at me and you as the enemy, with this mindset that your partner, or the other people "on the job" are the only ones you can trust.

I respect captdunsel a great deal, because he is honest, and he understands the system from the inside...and I know that being an officer is probably a hard job, and I know I would never want to be one...probably because I just don't have the temperment to be a cop.

When I taught martial arts, I actually taught a cop, and lots of people from the military, because they found the hand to hand training they got, wasn't enough to deal with the situations they faced.

I guess I am a hardliner on freedom, civil liberties, and all that...and to the extent that any group acts to deprive me or my folks of that....I have to point out the problems.

Adam and Eve were the first anarchists.

One day, years ago, as I sat on the steps of a grrlfriend's apartment building, a police officer stopped as he was driving by. He explained that I matched a description of a hot suspect and asked to see my ID. He was polite and explained why he was asking. I dont know what would of happened had I argued or declined, but consitering I know my local "twin" and his criminal history I wasnt worried.
Im basicly a law abiding citizen, I just disagree on a few laws and some details on enforcing them (we can debate legalizing weed later lol). Ive seen how the police can and do abuse their power. One the other hand, we do need protection from crime. The job of police officer isnt wrong, it's the degenerates who may end up in the uniform who disgrace my country. Right now the current police chiefs in my area are the former patrol cops who let groups of drunk teens go because I was 100% sober driving my parent's truck. They know and understood a safe community is not measured in the amounts of arrests made.
I respect law enforcement, but I feel as if the average law enforcer doesnt respect the average law abiding peaceful citizen. "Youre all criminals who I havent caught yet" is the aditude I get from too many officers. I think that a good reason needs to be present in order to ask for ID.
"It is better that 10 guilty men go free then one inoccent man be punished" - John Adams, founding father
"To see the most wicked criminals go to the nearest prison, and watch the changing of the gaurd" - Mark Twain

LOL code. they were the first and look what happened to them.

BTW I hope you don't think I'm implying you have no respect, I know that's not the case at all and I don't even know you personally. I was speaking in general. I have a lot of respect for you.

I agree insanewayne. in the words of the great Ronald Regan (please don't throw anything haha) trust but verify.

and you know I respect you compmore.....and that's the coolest thing ...that we all have met such great people here...and in some respects, this alone enrichens us all.

I have to agree to a point on this one. Funny thing happened to me driving to work one morning. As I was driving I saw lights thinking ah oh someone got pulled over.

I passed them by and someone was pulled over ok no biggy. THEN not a block later I see lights in my rearview mirror I'm thinking what the hell did I do?

I pull over the guuy comes up I ask ok whats wrong I wasn't speeding, he says no your fine there. You have a cracked rear tail light and the white is shining back (The light has been that way forever WITH cops having been behind me before without being pulled over)

He asks for the usual stuff I give it to him he checks it comes back and says ok just get that fixed. I'm like ok thanks. I start to pull out and as I am ANOTHER cop dirve by and pulls over another car right in friont of me.

THREE CARS within a block and a half. While it very well could be coincidence I was very sceptical that three carts with THREE DIFFERENT cop cars being pulled over like this.

They were looking for something. Qouta time or what? Just too weird to be a coincidence I think.

but did you have papers?

without going into a three page dissertation, here is my take in a nutshell. Police are not taught to talk to people. they are not taught to deal with people in a way that would build trust. they are taught to overpower and control through force any situation they come into. Here is the problem. you have a police force that doesn't have to negotiate, they simply bulldoze their way through whatever is in front of them. Now if you give this group unfettered rights to go in and create a bad situation that they can then bulldoze into submission, people are going to die. lots of people. good and bad people. I don't want to see that, I don't want to pay for that and I'm sure the people on the receiving end of that hose don't want it either.

I've seen too many cases of police shootings where an officer (or 2 or 3) emptied their guns on somebody and then reloaded and fired some more. I'll site just one. A few years back in Denver Colorado a kid named Jason Truax was involved in a bar fight and tried to flee the scene. Two off duty cops working as security at the bar pumped 46 rounds into that kids car killing him and wounding another young man. I'm sorry guys, that's murder in my opinion. if you have time to pump 46 rounds into a car that's trying to leave, you have time to get out of the way. Do you want to give this police force the right to pull you over and demand your papers? If you do then your asking to be sent away to a camp with a funny smell coming from the smoke stacks.

Gee... when I was in the military and stationed in Germany, the only time I had to "show papers" was when I crossed the borders to and from Austria.

well that makes no sence what so ever, i mean wtf. so why did the officer want his ID? Hu? Hu? Hu?

I find it ironic that with all the references to the Nazi's and the RIAA, that in fact most of the owners to the major media outlets as well as the RIAA and it's lawyers are in fact Jewish and are using some form of shameless Gobbles propaganda concerning P2P filesharers.(Believing the big lie over a small one). The list of our enemies are as follows Michael Eisner of Disney, Edgar Bronfman who recently bought up Time Warner music, after his failure running Vivendi Universal. David Geffen joins the list as head of Dream Works as well as Sony run by Michael Schulhof as well as old hacks Sumner Redstone and Mel Karmazin who head up Viacom-MTV. Enemies to P2P filesharing in government are Howard Berman as well as Riaa head Cary Sherman with his trained lawyer monkey Matt Oppenheim and former head Hilary Rosen. Just thought that was something to note.

What goes around comes around. Unless you are an unidentified, perhaps suspicious looking guy in Nevada standing too close to some cop's cows.

This is news? Hell, this kind of crap has been going on for years, they're just being bolder about it now. You're telling me a cop couldn't tell why me & my friend were out walking at 12:15 AM? (Hint: we were 1 1/2 blocks away from a 24 hour 7-11 store and each openly carrying a Big Bite, Big Gulp & bag of chips). Or how about this answer to the question above "But under that logic, what right could not be trumped by "police convenience"?" Ever been arrested for telling the police you refused to leave a house you were invited into by the owners until the owners said you had to leave? An ex g/f came to this house and started trouble while I was there, the cops were called on her and she split, everything was cool. The cops just couldn't stand that there was nobody for them to hassle so they went after me, telling me I had to leave the house and refused to check with the owners of the house even though I repeatedly told the police they could check with them to verify that I had permission to be there. One of the owners even came to the door to talk to the police and they told him to go back in his house and mind his own business!!! (So you're telling me that it's none of my business if the police come to MY house and harrass invited guests for no reason?) I also told the police that if they wanted me to leave the property all they had to do was have the owners of the property ask me to leave and until that happened they had no legal right to force me to leave. That was when they started threatening to arrest me. I said the cops AT LEAST 10 times after they started with the arrest threats, "If I am breaking any law by being here then please tell me what law I am breaking. If you can tell me what law makes it illegal for me to be here then I will leave right now with no arguement or hassle". The cops refused to tell me what law I was breaking by being there, so I finally said to them that the only reason I could see that they wouldn't tell me what law I was breaking is because there was no law I was breaking. That being said, they finally told me that I was guilty of "disorderly conduct" but that wasn't until AFTER one of them grabbed me by the throat and slammed me against a car, holding me against the car by the throat, literally cutting off my air flow to the point I was unable to speak or breathe. The police department refused to allow me to file charges against the officer who assaulted me (despite the fact that I had two witnesses willing to testify against him that I had done nothing illegal and he had made false statements as to what happened in his police report), the officer who assaulted me promised to deliver "more of the same" if I kept talking about filing charges against him, the state police refused to do anything because they didn't want to interfere in a "city matter", and the charge of disorderly conduct against me stuck. You know why? Because, as was explained to me by my lawyer, it was AGAINST THE LAW TO REFUSE TO COMPLY WITH A DIRECT ORDER FROM AN ON DUTY POLICE OFFICER EVEN IF THAT OFFICER HAS NO LEGAL RIGHT TO GIVE THE ORDER! Let me stress the last part -- EVEN IF THAT OFFICER HAS NO LEGAL RIGHT TO GIVE THE ORDER!!! Being a smartass I asked my lawyer "So you're saying if an on duty cop tells me to shoot myself in the head I'm breaking the law by not shooting myself, even though he has no legal right to order me to shoot myself." Well...my lawyer looked at me and SERIOUSLY said "yes, that's correct"!!! Now this all happened about 10 years or so ago, and I'll be willing to bet that none of you knew that all these past 10 years the police have legally had the power to order you to commit suicide and you can be arrested if you don't! So this story is really nothing new to me, it's only taken Nevada a few years to catch up with the more "progressive" parts of the country in the area of powers of the police. Just to be clear, in case anybody is uncertain or thinking I'm pulling some legs, no, I'm NOT joking about this!

I sense a lot of "anti-cop" sentiment here.

I used to be a cop. I didn't randomly pick people off the street to ask them for their ID. But I did if I ran across someone in an out-of -the-ordinary situation (like someone just standing around the roadside) or a call came in on a suspicious person, for example. And if the guy I was checking out failed to voluntarily identify himself, he went to jail (Fail to Identify is what it's called in Texas). Then hoped he had a shitload of warrants on him to pad the charge even more.

The officer in the story above didn't know the farmer from Adam. Didn't know what the guy'd been doing. What if the officer just waved and drove on by, and the guy turned out to be wanted for murder?

If you've never been there, then you don't know. I had to do a lot of things I didn't want to do, but HAD to, duty-bound by law. I've seen folks rail-roaded, not by cops, but by bogus charges filed by someone pissed off at them. It's not a perfect system, by far, but it beats the hell out of what some other places have.

In 1989, I was being transfered by the military from California to Washington D.C. I planned to make the trip by car and my mother flew to California just to make the trip with me. She loved to travel and couldn't pass up an opportunity to drive across the United States and see the sights.

While driving through Utah, we were diverted from the Interstate due to road construction. A short time later while on the rural road, we passed a Utah State patrol vehicle. I didn't pay him any attention. I wasn't speeding, actually I was going slower than the limit because the road was in terrible shape.

Suddenly he pulls out, lights flashing, calling out on the bull-horn for me to pull over. I complied. When he came up the the driver's window, he told me he pulled me over because I was missing my front license plate. In the military, you are allowed to retain the registration and license from your home state. My home state did not issue front license plates. I explained that to the officer. He didn't care for my answer. He asked for my driver's license and registration. This gets better. Because my license was issued by mail from my home state, it did not contain a photo. It even stated "valid without photo". And my registration was a little screwy because my car had been shipped from Germany where I bought while I was stationed there, directly to my station in California without actually ever being in my home state. So, although everything was proper, it was a bit unusual.

Just about then, the officer noticed my mother was holding a butter knife, you know, those small rounded, not sharp spreading utensils. My mom was in her late 60's then. She was using the butter knife to spread cream cheese or something on crackers we were snacking on. The officer confiscated the butter knife and then looked to see what was in the cooler she had on the floor next to her. We had some fruit which he also confiscated, saying we were not allowed to bring fruit into Utah. He was still very displeased about the license plate and driver's license thing and I could tell he was about to take me in. Suddenly, I remembered that my military I.D. card had my photo on it, so I asked him if I could show him that. He took my driver's license and my I.D. card with him to his patrol vehicle and I'm guessing he ran a make on me. Of course, nothing came up because I never had so much as a parking ticket on my record. A few minutes later he came back and returned my documents and told me I could go, but not before giving me another stern warning about the lack of a front license plate (from a state that doesn't issue front license plates!)

The worst part about the whole episode is that I had to listen to my mom saying the rest of that trip that I must have done something wrong for that cop to pull me over in the first place.

Now get this, my mom was from Czechoslovakia. She spent World War II as a prisoner in a Nazi Labor Camp. And yet she just refused to believe that in America, you couldn't be hassled like this unless you actually did something wrong. She believed things like that just didn't happen in America. God Bless Her Soul.

I rarely ever have any ID on my person. And I'm really not sure what the point is of giving an officer your name if you don't have ID. You could say you're Barry White and who'd be the wiser? Unless a crime has been committed, knowing the name of a person doesn't mean squat. However, if a cop knows your name and then you go rob a bank, then he can stand up and blurt "Hey, I know the perp's name, he's Engelburt Humperdink!" ..it's my physical appearance that identifies me, not my name. My SSN is another matter...

To be honest, the way the laws are changing, Orwell's 1984 seems more and more a reality. Mostlikely at some point all US citizens will be tagged with subdermal trackers. We've already gone though the period when parents were encouraged to have their children fingerprinted "for their own good".

Tell you what! This Louisiana thing and the not having search warrants is a real bad step in the wrong direction. We may have overlooked Code and his warping on 1984. But this is proof that we're going down a slippery sloop. Wonder if my membership in the ACLU will do me anygood as I'm getting beaten by rubber hoses and Iron Boot for downloading the latest track from Don Caballero. Post-911 is starting to look scary indeed.

Soon you won't want to admit to being a member of the ACLU because that will ensure that you are beaten.

furball, that's a sad story. It made me angry just reading it.

kyodylee, same for you. When I was younger (Army brat), I was in the passenger seat when we got crap for the exact same reason.

kyodylee,your posts are always a great read. I'm more impressed every time I read your thoughts. Apart from always thanking you for your service to our country in the military, thank you for your service to our country on this board, representing the interests of consumers and citizens in a reasonable and cordial way.

GREAT!

Playing devil's advocate here..
what's the cops side of the story? Why did he ask eleven times? If the farmer was "standing near his truck".. why didn' t the cop just run the plates and ask the farmer if it was his truck? Was he let go w/o any problems when they established his identity? Did the cop use the "T" word?
This has been going on since the 60's, with civil rights people refusing to even CARRY id, much less show it. I've gone out for a pack of smokes a few times
and forgotten my wallet, so I can sympahtise with it a bit. This went a little far. They had/have other ways of determining within a reasonable framework who a person is or who they SHOULD be w/o resorting to arrest. The guy said he had done nothing wrong, I don't want to say i believe him, but shouldn't the cop at least TRIED to figure out what was going on?
The 4th Ammendment was extended to your vehicle, so he could have hid behind it on several fronts. Illegal search of person, property or vehicle. I'm hoping the farmer doesn't have any negative impact on his livlihood, or we could see a lawsuit on this, and I think he could win.
I have my own "horror stories" (as do we all about cops). I was stopped by a cop in Arkansas, and the cop told me I was profiled. I was driving a rented Ryder truck, and didn't stop at a weigh station, so he pulled me over and tossed my truck. I didn't mind, since I had nothing to hide and I figured if I cooperated, I might stand a chance to get out of the ticket. Turns out I was right. I got no ticket, just an explanation (apparently there were some problems with Rental trucks being used as OTR to avoid fees *shrug*) and a handshake.
My wife on the other hand went thru the freaking ROOF! that was two years ago, and every time someone mentions the trip or Arkansas, she kinda grimaces and changes the subject.
My point is, sometimes it's just routine, sometimes it's not, but ifyou've got nothing to hide, then you shouldn't be afraid. I know tha'ts simplistic, but it's really very true. I figure the more I cooperate, the easier it'll be for me to just walk away.
ttmmm

" but ifyou've got nothing to hide, then you shouldn't be afraid. I know tha'ts simplistic, but it's really very true. I figure the more I cooperate, the easier it'll be for me to just walk away,"

Remye,I don't know if you ever read much of the pre-WW II stuff, but the scary thing is that I read a German lady's statement that was translated from her German tongue, who made a statement that was almost exactly the same as the one I quoted. And that is what the fascists always count on...good, hardworking , honest people, that think if they just cooperate and accept a little inconvenience...it'll all be fine.

Here's an interesting take on this at infowars.com
http://www.infowars.com/print/ps/cantrefuseid.htm
"Here is an actual picture of a Nazi ID card. The article below states: " Using his patrol car computer terminal, the modern American police officer can learn more about a citizen from today's government-issued photo ID than was contained in the infamous "travel papers" required of any citizen of the Third Reich. "


If you go to that infowars.com page, Alex posted an actual document that was from Nazi Germany, that people had to carry...you'll notice it has the person's picture and identification information, and there, like here,
on demand, you must "stand and deliver" your identification papers.

Remye

Didn't you hear me? I'll say it again..


"This is one of the oldest methods the cops use to fuck with you. Someone doesn't "look right" so they drive up and demand an ID. I can point to a vast number of homeless people and even a few others who aren't homeless who don't have an ID (afterall why do you need a driver's license if you don't drive) The cops know this up front- I always did. They also know that the average guy in that position isn't going to trust them so they use that to intimidate as well. then they hide behind the bullshit "Failure To Obey A Lawful Order" law and tell you if you don't produce an Id you are going to jail. Next thing you know your in the jug and you didn't do anything wrong. this isn't my imagination, this was practice. everyday, all day."


Ask a cop sometime if he needs this. If he does he shouldn't be a cop.

Tinker...

All a cop needs is your name & DOB. From that, he can get your criminal history, driving record, and physical description. AND...if your description doesn't match what comes back on the return, you'd better have a good explanation.

And captdunsel...Fail to Identify was mainly used (when I worked) to throw shitbirds in jail. Because they usually lied about who they were, and deserved to be arrested. And they usually had a bunch of warrants on 'em to boot.

I understand what's being said, and appreciate the feedback. Maybe I made a mistake here by NOT prefacing my statement with In My Own Life and Opinion.
I agree with what's been said, and how it's been presented. I see your posts captdunsel, and while I may not agree completely with your OPINION about cops fucking with people, I respect it and can see how you support that opinion.
geez, this is coming out like I'm sounding off at the folks who didn't like what *I* said. not like that at all, so I hope I don't offend anyone.
I'm basically of the opinion that I can't take care of the homeless, or the vagrants. I know they get hassled and harrassed a lot, and I know sometimes they can't do anything to stop it.
There are only three people in the world who can scare/intimidate me to the point of controlling me:
My Father
God
Batman
To argue a few points (lumped together to save time and space)
Code: I haven't done much research on WW-II stuff, mores the pity I suppose or I might have happened on the example you gave. Great example tho I'll admit.
Does anyone (Has anyone?) done any research to show relative numbers? How many people TODAY have been arrested for not showing id or been harrassed for not showing id straight up, and how many have just ponied up the id and cooperated, and been sent their way? I'm not sure if I'm phrasing the question right, but I guess the issue I'm aiming at is.. relatively speaking are(could?) the numbers be skewed towards the people who actually got trouble from not showing ID?
To put it in another perspective, how many speeders every day "get away with it" .. get pulled over for speeding, give the info the cop requests, sit quietly and let the cop do his/her thing, and get let go with a warning? I know it's not an EXACT match, but isn't that sort of the same thing? I'd honestly like to know!
thanks again for all the honest feedback. I always know I can count on it and revel in it.
ttmmm