I saw a very compelling and in some ways, very sad show on the TechTV Channel last night, on "Nerd Nation". It dealt with the outsourcing of jobs from America, United Kingdom, and Australia to India, specifically, call center jobs. After we watched the hour long show, my wife and I were both saddened by some aspects of it, and I felt the implications were fodder for further discussion.

India is seeing a virtual explosion of call center jobs incoming into places like Delhi. They were talking about billions of dollars coming to India from these jobs, but, what do these jobs mean to the people who end up doing them ?

TRANSFORM YOURSELF INTO A WESTERNER
India is still a very poor, very overcrowded country. There is a generation of young, well educated kids in their late teens and early twenties who have been exposed to the Western lifestyle through the Internet, through television, and the American dream of having a "better life" has become a goal of many of these young folks.

At the same time, large, multi-national corporations are looking for ways to cut costs, and increase profits. Many credit card companies, many computer companies, and even insurance companies needing doctors and nurses to review claims, are currently outsourcing to India.

At the same time, they don't want to advertise this, for fear of somehow upsetting American customers, and as a result, many of the buildings in which the new generation of call center workers are located, are either unmarked, or still bear the name of the previous business.

The companies outsourcing, realized early on that the language would be a problem, and thus, companies like "North Star" , featured on the show, have sprung up, that essentially, have as their goal, the "westernizing" of young Indian, prospective call center workers. Language is one of the big things to work on, but these places also believe it is crucial to immerse these kids in Western culture. Those who will be supporting Australian customers, are shown pictures of Australia, taught to recognize koala bears, the Opera House, etc., and are shown videos of regular Australians, to show them how they live, what they are interested in, how they talk, etc..

Call center workers are told they have to pick their "call center names", which basically means, Anglicized names, such as Ricky Smith, or Sally White. Some were picking names like "James Bond" and "Russell Crowe" (to be given out as Russell or James to customers). They are taught how the game of baseball is played, quizzed on the capitals of the 50 states, and on and on. Some were even sent to Australia to live for six months, so that they could come back and train others.

They drill for hours on just pronouncing consonants and vowels...they dress in Americanized garb, and are told to constantly speak English at home, and with their friends so that English will come second nature to them.

The Indian culture was said really not to have a tradition of customer service (their words, not mine) and also, they had to get used to having to be punctual to work.
These kids were working 12 hour shifts (those who graduated, passed all interviews, and got hired), and shifts went around the clock.

HIGH PAYING JOBS
These kids were high school and some college educated. The jobs they were training to hope to get, pay, on the average, around 40 dollars a week. The same jobs here in the US, may pay 400-500 a week. The jobs are very stressful, and in order to perform their jobs well, they are trained that they must think, talk, and act Western.

In the show, we saw them undergoing this intensive training, and this was just to get them to the point that they could start interviewing for jobs, via a series of interviews and tests. The bottom line was that, from the North Star school, only a couple were hired out of a large class.

THE SOCIAL AND CULTURAL IMPLICATIONS
One professor in India, found that those who were working as call center workers, and were having to act very westernized, also seemed to become more concerned with, more devout, in their native religion, almost as if they were compensating for this push for Westernization. She also touched on the fact these kids were being pushed toward accepting the American dream, which she said is not realized even for many here in America.

THE SADNESS
In some ways, you could say this new found source of income and jobs may be good for India, and indeed, these call centers are bringing in many, many more jobs.
However, at what cost? The subliminal message to them is that they must hide who they are. They are pushed to adopt these silly "call center names" (their term), to adopt another culture (on the job,and at home in some ways) and to hide who they really are. They also understand that they really are about tricking the people on the other end of the line into thinking they are American, Australian, British, or whatever. Some were urged to even adopt more of an American facade, such as saying that they lived in Arkansas.

These young adults are very intelligent. They know there are reasons for all this. They know there is a reason that the major multi-national companies have guards on site, that they refuse to put up their logos, or names associated with the actual call center address.

HIGH ATTRITION RATE
The average worker quits after six months. The stress of the job gets to them. Every call is recorded, every call is scrutinized. There are arbitrary sales ratios demanded (for example, one was told that for every 100 calls, he should be making 10 sales, his average was 2.6), and in general, their every action is filmed, recorded, analyzed, etc. .

THE FUTURE
Trends indicate that the outsourcing of jobs to the East,will continue. The young people are quickly getting the message, as was encouraged by the trainers, that Americans are somehow better suited for the future. The workers were encouraged to talk about the superiority of the American "can do" , "take charge", "handle problems yourself" attitude. They were told in the film by a trainer, that Americans don't have a problem with conflict, and they are ready to meet a problem with a person head on.

Americans were portrayed as spontaneous, aggressive, leader types, who party hard and enjoy life with lots of parties. Americans have lots of money, and lots of toys.
The underlying message is that if Indians want to have money, nice living quarters, and be successful, they must in effect, become displaced Americans.

EXPLOITATION FOR THE SAKE OF PROFIT
The real reason for moving jobs to India was clear to everyone. The corporations want to decrease their expenditure on salaries, benefits, health care, etc. (one executive with one of the companies training Indians for call center jobs said this),and shipping "fulfillment" or customer service jobs to India, drops their problems with paying high wages and benefits way down.

But, what does this experience do to the psyche of these kids?

They are put through all kinds of hoops, training, and mind games, and then, the majority may not be hired right away.

We talk about what outsourcing is doing to Americans who lose their jobs, and the harm it is doing, but I think we need to also examine what these jobs are doing to the young people in these other countries as well.
~CW

Please. The life of a westernized (globalized) kid in India is manifestly less deserving of sympathy and concern than the alternative of the throngs forced to work in sweat shops.

The point is that globalization is bad for everyone. Of course, sweat shops are bad...and few people have to think much about whether or not they are bad, the reason for the article was to show that even those jobs which people would point out as raising the standard of living, or providing income for people who have none, perhaps, has a long term negative effect on those citizens. We are ALL seen as mere functionaries by global corporations, and I find these attempts to fool American, Australian, and English customers into thinking they are talking to someone in their own country, insidious and wrongheaded.
~Code

Until one of the Indian takes the name Bubba, I don’t think we have to much to worry about.

A study recently by the National Electrical Manufacturer’s Association found that the wage demand of Chinese workers are increasing faster than the Japanese after world war II. With subsidies and other incentives, these kind of programs will work, after the subsidies are gone, so are the jobs.

I think making anything less than a decent wage, no matter the work or environment it is performed, is justly deserved of sympathy and concern. While some places are worse than others, it is all a betrayal of human decency.

As a country that should be leading the way towards civil rights, it is even more despicable that we allow our politicians and corporations to force this on us and the rest of the World.

Get organized folks! We have been so passive as a nation as to leave ourselves with the very real fact that voting is the only true working method of revolution we have left!

"But, what does this experience do to the psyche of these kids? They are put through all kinds of hoops, training, and mind games, and then, the majority may not be hired right away."

Uh, excuse me, but isn't this exactly the same thing that happens if you get a call center job in the U.S.? Including the long hours, expected success rate, low pay, stress, trying to trick callers, turnover rate and on and on?

"Uh, excuse me, but isn't this exactly the same thing that happens if you get a call center job in the U.S.? Including the long hours, expected success rate, low pay, stress, trying to trick callers, turnover rate and on and on?"

Yes, but with a few exceptions:

1) They expect these kids to turn their backs on who they are and literally become someone else, at home as well as at work.

2)Although anyone would be hardpressed to find a corporation that didn't lie to it's employees on a regular basis, it sounds like these kids are being fed false truths on a much larger scale.

"As a country that should be leading the way towards civil rights, it is even more despicable that we allow our politicians and corporations to force this on us and the rest of the World."

"Get organized folks! We have been so passive as a nation as to leave ourselves with the very real fact that voting is the only true working method of revolution we have left!"

I agree, but I don't know how much we will be able to accomplish. It's much easier to regulate American companies. These multi-national companies only have to answer to the American government for certain things, much of which relies on them taking place on American soil.

Multi-national companies have the advantage (if you could call it that) of claiming that, since their home office is not located in the US, there is no reason why they should be expected to keep their offices here.

George...don't know if you've ever worked in a call center...I have....and even though I got paid a hell of a lot more than these cats in India...I didn't have to call myself Hadji and affect an Indian accent and learn all about the culture and turn my back on who I am...just for about 7 bucks a day.

I saw these kids have to jump through a million hoops (figuratively), get brainwashed, and have to be told their culture wasn't good enough...and then the bastards didn't even hire them, and they were jobless...

To say this is the same thing you go through here in the US is callous and untrue.

I've done supervisor work at call centers, operated the software monitoring, done QA auditing of calls, so I know a little about the industry....

I'm sorry, but the folks who didn't seem to think this situation is pitiful...I'm having a hard time understanding where you are coming from...

Just because these people are getting American jobs, doesn't mean we can't have sympathy and empathy for other people who are getting exploited by "The Man"...

Part of my heritage is Native American, and young Native Americans were done in much the same way...not allowed to speak their native language in school..forced to adopt Anglo names...told their religion and culture was shit....

I'm sorry, but I'm getting a bit angry....
so I guess I better shut up.

Oh yeah...and I worked major account tech support at the largest computer company here in the States...and we were told on the first day by our trainer that the company saw us as a liability...we weren't seen as income generators...and yet, this company brags about the quality of their tech support on commercials and acts like they really want to offer support....

~Code

"The point is that Globalization is bad for everyone".

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on that one, Code. True, globalization does have its adverse effects, but there are a lot of benefits which come with globalization as well.

From what I have heard, most of the young Indians who are working at the call centers are quite happy with their jobs. Part of the reason for the high turnover is that after they get experience at one location, they go to another call center for a higher salary. Nobody is forcing these Indians to take these jobs, as far as I know.

The downside from our perspective is that there is a loss of call center jobs in this country. But this downside is not so bad as long as the folks here in the US who would otherwise be working at call centers can get decent jobs in other sectors of our economy. Also, as this kind of globalization enriches countries like India and China, it fuels demand for high end goods and services which originate in the U.S., Australia, and Western Europe.

They are SO happy with their jobs, they quit within 6 months because they can't take it anymore Bill...that's how friggin' happy the are...even one of the heads of the training companies had to admit stress and monotony is why they leave....

Bufo said :
"The downside from our perspective is that there is a loss of call center jobs in this country. But this downside is not so bad as long as the folks here in the US who would otherwise be working at call centers can get decent jobs in other sectors of our economy. "

Bill, do you know LOTS of people are losing their unemployment and then disappear from the rolls of unemployed even though they can't find a job?

Please consider this...
".S. Unemployment Rate -- Tops E.U.
The "official" unemployment rate in the United States is 5.7 (December 2003) percent, a contradiction to the actual number of unemployed men and women in the United States which stands at 16,265,736. The United States government only keeps you "unemployed" for six months, whether or not you find a job. The Labor Department reports that an additional 300,000 workers "gave-up" seeking employment and fell out of the labor pool (an average monthly share throughout 2003.) Some 6,700,000 professionals have given-up job their job search after their unemployment benefits ended. Employers added no hope, creating only 1,000 jobs as opposed to economists predictions of 153,000 new jobs.

According to the Los Angeles Times, the true number of unemployed in the U.S.A. tops 16 million. The number of professionals in part-time or freelance work while waiting-out their job hunt is 4.9 million, and 1.5 million professionals seek jobs due to imminent layoffs, added too 9 million already unemployed -- the US-unemployment is the highest in 20 years. The actual percentage of "unemployed" in the United States is 9.7 percent, up .3 percent from 2002. "

Also, ibid...
"Unemployment rates
at a glance:
United States 9.7 percent
European Union 8.8 percent
Japan 5.2 percent
France 9.6 percent
Germany 9.3 percent
Canada 7.6 percent
United Kingdom 4.9 percent
Italy 8.5 percent "

Also...
"unemployment rate, measurement problems: The official unemployment rate, which measures the proportion of the civilian labor force 16 years or older that is not engaged productive activities but is actively seeking employment, is estimated and reported monthly by the U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). The imperfections of official unemployment rate fall into two categories. One that suggests the "true" unemployment of labor resources is likely greater than the official unemployment rate and the other that suggests the "true" unemployment of labor resources is likely less than the official unemployment rate. Two items that show up in the understated category are discouraged workers and part-time workers. Two items that shows up in the overstated category are unreported legal employment and unreported illegal employment."

http://www.amosweb.com/cgi-bin/gls.pl?fcd=dsp&key=unemployment+rate,+measurement+problems

As for the "goodness" of globalization...
There are tools like professor from MIT, Lester Thurow, who love to say globalization is inevitable, so get used to it...he promotes a Borg-like view of choiceless assimilation...which is horrible to me.

LOTS of people agree with me about the evils of globalization and many are more articulate than I in presenting the case against it...

I would refer you to just a few of many sites...
http://www.ifg.org/

http://www.idg.com.sg/idgwww.nsf/unidlookup/4ACC10A5E6BB3C1648256E28002F860D%3FOpenDocument

"India outsourcers nonplussed by US Senate restrictions
By John Ribeiro
IDG News Service, Bangalore Bureau
27-01-2004

A bill passed by the U.S. Senate last week restricting federal government contractors from outsourcing work overseas is unlikely to have a significant impact on India's software and services companies, according to an executive of the National Association of Software and Service Companies (NASSCOM) in Delhi.

The U.S. Senate passed an omnibus appropriations bill totaling US$328 billion Thursday, containing provisions that restrict government contractors from outsourcing work overseas -- commonly know as offshoring.

"The business impact of such a move on the Indian IT industry will be very small, as the share of U.S. federal government contracts in exports of IT software and services from India is less than 2 percent," said Kiran Karnik, president of NASSCOM. However, the bill is not in keeping with the increasing globalization of trade, which benefits all countries and is contrary to the spirit of free trade being promoted by the WTO (World Trade Organization), he said.

The restriction on outsourcing proposed by the bill affects only the departments of treasury and transportation and related government agencies, according to analysts. The restriction is valid only to Sept. 30, these analysts added, although they warned that in the run-up to elections in the U.S., similar and stronger legislation is likely.

A number of states in the U.S. are also considering bills restricting where work outsourced by the state government can be done. "

http://www.globalresearch.ca/

http://www.cepr.net/globalization/scorecard_on_globalization.htm
"This paper looks at the major economic and social indicators for all countries for which data are available, and compares the last 20 years of globalization (1980-2000) with the previous 20 years (1960-1980). These indicators include: the growth of income per person, life expectancy, mortality among infants, children, and adults, literacy, and education.

For economic growth and almost all of the other indicators, the last 20 years have shown a very clear decline in progress as compared with the previous two decades. For each indicator, countries were divided into five roughly equal groups, according to what level the countries had achieved by the start of the period (1960 or 1980). Among the findings:

· Growth: The fall in economic growth rates was most pronounced and across the board for all groups or countries. The poorest group went from a per capita GDP growth rate of 1.9 percent annually in 1960-80, to a decline of 0.5 percent per year (1980-2000). For the middle group (which includes mostly poor countries), there was a sharp decline from an annual per capita growth rate of 3.6 percent to just less than 1 percent. Over a 20-year period, this represents the difference between doubling income per person, versus increasing it by just 21 percent. The other groups also showed substantial declines in growth rates.

· Life Expectancy: Progress in life expectancy was also reduced for 4 out of the 5 groups of countries, with the exception of the highest group (life expectancy 69-76 years). The sharpest slowdown was in the second to worst group (life expectancy between 44-53 years). Reduced progress in life expectancy and other health outcomes cannot be explained by the AIDS pandemic.

· Infant and Child Mortality: Progress in reducing infant mortality was also considerably slower during the period of globalization (1980-199 than over the previous two decades. The biggest declines in progress were for the middle to worst performing groups. Progress in reducing child mortality (under 5) was also slower for the middle to worst performing groups of countries.

· Education and literacy: Progress in education also slowed during the period of globalization. The rate of growth of primary, secondary, and tertiary (post-secondary) school enrollment was slower for most groups of countries. There are some exceptions, but these tend to be concentrated among the better performing groups of countries. By almost every measure of education, including literacy rates, the middle and poorer performing groups saw less rapid progress in the period of globalization than in the prior two decades. The rate of growth of public spending on education, as a share of GDP, also slowed across all groups of countries. "

Yeah, this globalization is wonderful...
I can't wait til the blue helmeted UN troops are patrolling the streets and I have a couple of Euros in my pocket....
and FTAA has the US pass laws putting filetraders in jail..just like the rest of the Western Hemisphere that implement such globalist laws....oh yeah, and how about that wonderful Title 17 implementation of World Intellectual Property Organization copyright guidelines...passed in 1998 called the DMCA...thank our wonderful globalist benefactors for that one

Also..another quote from the last referenced website....
"The evidence presented in this study does not prove that the broad decline in progress in the areas of economic growth, health outcomes, or other social indicators are a result of any one or more of these policy changes. But it does present a very strong prima facie case that some structural and policy changes implemented during the last two decades are at least partly responsible for these declines. And there is certainly no evidence in these data that the policies associated with globalization have improved outcomes for most low to middle-income countries. To argue that this is the case, it would be necessary to show that outcomes would have been even worse in the era of globalization, if countries had not adopted these policies.

If the basic facts presented in this paper were well known, discussions of globalization and international economic policy would look very different than the ones we see today. At the very least, the burden of proof would be squarely placed on those who claim success -- by any available measure of human well-being -- for the last two decades of the experiment in globalization."

I would also look at the more sensational views of globalism at
www.infowars.com and
www.prisonplanet.com and see how RFID chips are part of this wonderful globalist movement....

Thanks for the post on this topic, Code. I work in a call center for a major broadband ISP, and as of Feb. 01, 2004, we lost our third shift because the client decided to further outsource the work to India.

We discovered this by finding an internal memo online that stated the facts in black & white, not because the company had the gumption to inform us of the reasons.

Reading your post most certainly sheds new light on my perspective on this issue.

However, I do think the company I work for will fail, in a spectacular way, in their effort to make this outsourcing venture work - in their effort to save a few million dollars.

Perhaps sadly, but true, the South seems less tolerant of foreigners, and I think Jim-Bob-Bubba from Alabama will most likely cancel his DSL service when he is unable to understand the tech support help desk.

We expect more jobs to follow soon.

Good old globalization promoter Lester Thurow wrote a book called Fortune Favors the Bold...
a blurb for his book contains the following :
"To build a lasting global prosperity, we must:
• Accept that globalization will continue whether we like it or not.
• Avoid the dangers in the U.S. Trade Deficit.
• Recognize our importance to the global system.
• Urge Japan to repair its struggling economy.
• Create a corporate and government role for a chief knowledge officer.

All this and more, Lester Thurow discusses in his new book, FORTUNE FAVORS THE BOLD: What We Must Do to Build a New and Lasting Global Prosperity (HarperBusiness; October, 2003; $26.95).
Thurow addresses these questions among others:
• What must we do to avert the danger that a falling dollar and a rising trade deficit pose to the American economy?
• How will third world poverty and the growing gap between rich and poor nations affect the entire world’s economy?
• How will the lack of intellectual property rights protection around the world hurt the most advanced economies? What can be done?
• Is Hollywood’s cultural dominance around the world a myth?"

For those wanting to listen to this tool...
check out an interview with Les..
To hear an interview with Lester Thurow:
http://www.worldtalkradio.com/archive.asp?aid=780

And here's the sound only link
http://www.worldtalkradio.com/playlist.asp?SegmentID=3559

http://blog.fastcompany.com/archives/2003/10/07/coffee_with_lester_thurow.html#more
"The title of MIT economist Lester Thurow's new book Fortune Favors the Bold comes from an old Roman saying, "Fortune favors the brave." The underlying logic is priceless: Warriors were told that if they stood and fought, they had a chance to live. If they turned and ran, they would more than likely be stabbed in the back by their adversaries.

Thurow thinks the metaphor is apt for today's increasingly global world. If you fail to confront the new competition by running away from it, your company will likely die. If you, on the other hand, summon the courage to move boldly, you have a chance to survive, if not thrive.

One thing is certain. This is going to be one turbulent and rocky time. Thurow, former dean of MIT's Sloan School of Management, recently visited Mexico, India, and Turkey. Everywhere, he says, people are talking about outsourcing business to China.

In Northern Mexico, where much of TV set manufacturing ultimately emigrated, one plant after another is closing and moving to China, says Thurow. At a computer software company in India, executives told him how they recently began outsourcing in China. And at a book tour stop earlier today at Bloomberg, Thurow said he was told that 4,000 technical jobs at Bloomberg will be outsourced to China.

Obviously, it's not only professional jobs. The vast majority are manufacturing positions that are now moving to China. "There is nothing that can be done in any Third World country that can' tbe done in China more cheaply," says Thurow. As for the U.S., he adds, "Nine out of ten jobs moving to China are leaving other countries, not our own."

An interesting tidbit about Ford Motor Co. Thurow says on a recent trip to Ford he found out that the U.S. carmaker looked into sourcing parts from China. Ford discovered, Thurow added, that there are 1,500 auto parts makers in China. Ford looked at 500 of them, visited 50, and ultimately found only two companies whose parts were acceptable. The reason: poor quality or antiquated design specs. Thurow says it will take much longer than 10 years for China to be a global player in car manufacture. But it is far more likely that China could make 30% of the car parts for autos within 10 years, predicts Thurow."

---My comment--------
Part and parcel of the globalist phenomenon is turning the US into a consumer economy...

Our country has gone from an agrarian/farming nation...to an industrial nation...both phases had us producing saleable goods...
We then went to a "service economy" and then, they started outsourcing things like call centers, fulfillment centers, and now, even outsourcing jobs for doctors and nurses who review insurance claims, to India and other countries....
So now, once we lose the service aspect...we will be consumers..and how long will that last?

Any economy which quits being a major producer (by the way, we now import more meat than we export) to a major consumer, in my opinion is headed for an economic meltdown.

karotechia
Thanks
People who have not worked in call centers don't know what a stressful and thankless job it can be.

I really appreciate your input.
~Code

I second that Code. I was so stressed it showed in my family life. Whenever I tell people what call centers are like they don't want to believe me. the local call center here in Coos Bay has gone through so many people there's virtually vew left in this community who'll work for them and they're having a hard time keeping their doors open because of that. They may loose their MSN account if they don't consolidate somewhere else.

you're completely right comp...
I've had jobs that were worse physically...but call center jobs were the worst stress wise...that's one reason Dell outsourced tech jobs to India..they burned out American techs so quick

Ah greed, and how it takes many forms. When one sits back and looks at the full picture, it's like a huge merry go round.

Corporations start up in one cheap place, with new cheap labour. Run out there, move on to the next cheap labour pool.

Its horrible the way large corporations "use" people. The Indians may at first think its a new wonderful opportunity, but they are only turned into slaves, and only a matter of time before disillushionment sets in.

Theres a lot of folks all over North America, Mexico, South America, etc that have gone through or are going through the same thing.

It's truly a sad thing, and how to cure it? There lies a problem all its own.

Globalization and de-culturalization: My father in law was forbidden to speak his native language, was repeatedly beaten when caught speaking it, even outside of school. His father was demoted and pay was reduced after another of his siblings was caught speaking their native language on the way home from school. The family was given continuous lectures about how their culture was uncouth, immoral and should be done away with, this was in the 40's and has continued through the 60's, where was this? The sugarcane plantations of Hawaii!

Cultural irradication is nothing new, and instead of just the Goverments, we now have corporations that deal in this type of dehumanizing. If you are buying goods from these folks you are contributing to the problem. If you are arguing that it isn't really a big problem, or a good thing for the World, then you are as naive and uneducated as the folks they are trying to change!

Contrary to popular belief here, Alabama is not full of jim-bobs and bubbas. Yes, there are some of the male and female persuasion of these types here but face it they are everywhere. It is a prejudiced statement to imply that they are only in the south.. we've come a long way baby...

But anyway...I too saw this program and was disturbed by the way that history keeps repeating itself...but folks get real...When you have a problem and have to contact a call center, you take what you can get. If the help is genuine and courteous it does not matter the accent...as long a you can get the information being passed along. If you can't quite get it you just hang up and try again...

The thing is if you need help you take what is offered, you have no choice--- except maybe to buy different brands of items and check on the support as you need it. Of course if all the companies are doing the same thing your only hope is in some type of unofficial support which may not be a suitable course of action (warranties and such considered).

Well fish to fry....

Wow, Code, I think that was perhaps the longest response I have ever received to one of my posts on this website. I must admit it is good information, and you obviously have done your research.

I don't think anyone can deny that what we call 'globalization' has its downsides. But I think we have to be careful not to only dwell on the negatives without seeing the positives on this issue.

When we export services and production, be it McDonalds, Shoe Factories, or call centers, we are, in effect, giving more choices to the people of those nations who are recipients to these capital investments. The owners of these restaurants, factories, and call centers do not force people to work for them. Nor is it necessarily fair to say that our corporations are "exploiting" these people. Sure, these Indians and others may make a much lower wage for the same work being done in the US, but goods and services are much much cheaper in most of Asia as compared to the US. And let us not forget that for many, if not most, Indians the opportunity to work for a multinational is the best option they have (I lived in India for a few months, and believe me, the people I met who worked for multinationals were grateful for their jobs. I do not think it would be a stretch to say that Indian owned companies are probably more guilty of exploiting Indian workers than multinational companies are.

I certainly will not argue that unemployment is a problem for us now. But I do not think that we can blame all of our current unemployment on exporting jobs to India. As I mentioned in my earlier post, as India becomes richer, there will be a demand for 'higher end' goods and services from the first world countries like the US.

I have heard of Lester Thurow, but have not read any of his books. I suspect he would argue that, if we prevented our corporations from exporting call center work to India, then other multinationals would use India for their call centers, and that would put them at a competitive advantage over US firms. And if other non-US multinationals can compete better than the US companies, then the net result is that the US companies would have to shed workers since they are not as competitive.

So whatever you may think of Thurow, you have to give the devil his due; probably the only way to significanlty impede globalism is for the US to become isolationist. Even this would not work in the long run, since other nations would forge ahead. How would be stop other areas like Western Europe and Australia and Japan from forging ahead with globalization?

sterotypes are sad but we all have them. a friend of mine at the call center actually had a customer back in new york call. when the customer found out the center was in Oregon he asked my friend (honest to God My friends swears this) if we were still having trouble with the indians.

soundsseeker I agree you have to take what you can get. Thats why I tell all of my customers about the virtue of buying custom built computer systems at my store. I've had so many people go out and buy the Dell, Gateway, and HP $599 specials and complain that they have to wait on hold for twenty minutes. then they call me to get free advice on how to fix it. you get what you pay for.

Bufo I can't see any positives in your argument other than the companies prosper. Nobody forces them to work for them? I've lived in small towns most of my adult life and I've heard that time and time again. mostly from the business's who pay min wage and give no benifits. when there is no other choice and you have to either go hungry or work for substandard wages then they are being forced by the circumstances the companies create.. if not that company, then another one that is doing the same thing.

I do agree that our unemployment problem cannot be blamed totally on globilization and that many exports do create jobs right here in the US. Keep in mind that India still has a cast system and these jobs are not going to the people who need it. Also just because their standard of living is lower doesn't mean they deserve lower wages and working conditions. Call Centers are high tech sweat shops and that kind of an environment is not healthy for any worker reguardless of what society they are in. The argument that corporations use "be thankful you have a job" is nothing more than an attempt to convice it's workers that they can't better themselves and to dash their hopes of growth.

I have a brother in law who looked with disgust on some of the dishwashers at the restaurant he managed. they wanted better wages, some have been there for years. His response was that they should get better jobs. They liked dishwashing so doesn't mean they shouldn't get paid what they're worth.

I've knowen this for a while, it's really sad, and that's why i don't like the telephone, expecially thoes fucking telemarketors, most are kids in india and other countries, i like to give them shit for calling me, i see it as personal entertainment that they pay for.

The cool thing about this site, is that it gets people to thinking. And, in this world, we must think about the worldwide implications of what happens here at home, and vice versa, the domestic sequelae of what happens elsewhere. We are trying to handle problems that are local and global in nature. There is an old saying in politics, that all politics is local, meaning, people give a damn about losing jobs in their county, more than they do about people three states away.

Lemme take the deal with Thurow first. I've read some of Thurow, and have seen him on television interviews about the book.

He seems like a nice enough guy, but, Lester is like someone who tells the smallest guy in a fight, "Look, you're gonna get your ass kicked, so just cover your head with your arms to minimize the damage". Lester is convinced that globalization is, in effect, a fait accompli, a thing which is in effect, already accomplished. Lester believes there is no way we can escape it, and his book is about minimizing the damage...BUT, Lester also pushes VERY hard for strong intellectual property laws, ala DMCA and the rest of the WIPO Eurotrash coming out of Geneva. And, that's why I am very anti-Thurow. His talk is defeatist...

There are many Bible believers (and more daily) who are predicting this globalist movement is the beginning of the anti-Christ movement. Now, I know not all people here are Christians, nor even religious, so, I will address why I think globalism is bad from a worldly view.

Globalism is not new. The main promoters of globalism in the past were the Romans during the Imperial period. Globalism basically mean the subjugation of the peoples of conquered countries, the spreading of Latin as the world language, the common use of Roman money as the coin of the realm, and spreading of Roman culture.

Now, for those who think (as some actually do) that globalization is just a way by which countries can come together and sing kumbaya, and hold hands and talk about solutions to hunger...lol...you haven't taken the time to sit down and read what member nations to these globalist organizations like WIPO, FTAA, and the rest are writing.

Globalization is , in many respects, communistic in its push. Now, years ago, I would not have been spouting off warnings about the "NWO" (New World Order)...because, I didn't read a lot from alternative websites, and a lot of the things that are happening now, were not happening then.

A lot of the globalists not only stress this need for control of intellectual property, and going after infringers in a draconian fashion, but they are really are against things like strong sovereignty of the USA.

I am not for a worldwide melting pot. I am not for phasing our money out, and the EURO in....I am not for governmental monitoring of everything you do, and am not for loss of due process of law, the concept of individual rights...etc.. You have to remember that the level of personal freedom we have in the States is unique...and in fact, our constitutionw was based on the Native American, Iroquois constitution.

This is one reason that American is quite different from the European countries. Although we were ruled by a king for a short time here in the USA (well..relatively short relative to European monarchies) the European, Asian, and African countries come out of a tradition of being ruled by kings and queens for centuries, and in some cases, for thousands of years.

You have to remember the REASON why the Magna Carta came about.

The program on TechTV, and the situation about India, is just a minor, minor part of this whole globalist concerns.

Multinationals are highly a part of this globalism movement. Multinational corporations don't have loyalty to our country...they have a loyalty to their balance sheet, and even more...to the virtual kings (CEOs) that rule over them.

A recent article I saw showed that here in the USA, there is a bigger disparity between how much the CEOs of a company make, and the average beginning wage of the hourly worker....

In fact...some CEOs were making over 500 times (I think it was like 521 times)
what the man on the line was making in the corporation.

I read a recent article about what happened in Mexico. The average worker in Mexico, was supposedly making a buck and change an hour (some said 1.60)....and in a lot of sweat shops that grew there...paid much less than that...THEN...these companies found that there was an average wage in parts of China, where you could get people for an AVERAGE of around 30 cents an hour....the result...sweatshops closed in Mexico, and went to China, and then, all these former workers in Mexico, became jobless again.

There are LOTS of people in this world, and a lot of them living in such poverty, that 15 cents an hour would be a lot..so guess what is going to happen to the shops in China....and these people are not going to unionize...when there were attempts to unionize in some shops in Mexico...the guys in charge FIRED THEM ALL...and got more within very little time.

There are thousands of apps for just about every job here in a metropolitan area where I live. Where my wife works, they had a little over minimum wage job in clerical work come available...the guy in charge had a stack of resumes about the height of 4 to 4.5 reams of paper (usually 500 pages per ream) and a lot more in his email box...

There are stores and businesses failing right and left in this state....people are losing their homes and autos in increasingly record setting numbers....
bankruptcy filings are up...

Globalism is going to make this worse in my opinion.

You said "The owners of these restaurants, factories, and call centers do not force people to work for them. Nor is it necessarily fair to say that our corporations are "exploiting" these people. ", and honestly Bill, that points out to what I believe is a fundamentally flawed notion...that these are "our" corporations, for they are not.

There are LOTS of companies that you may think are American, which are in fact, under the control of companies in the Netherlands...for example...
Farmers Insurance is controlled by Zurich Financial...out of Switzerland.

Phillips Electronics...corporate headquarters are in Holland....

The European, especially Germanic and Swiss ownership of lots of pharmaceutical houses, electronics firms...and even automobile companies..
i.e. Daimler Chrysler...is often not noticed by those who believe that these companies are OUR companies....

If you sit down and start tracing who actually controls and/or owns a lot of big American companies....you start tracing the actual groups who own and control these companies to European and/or Asian countries.

Look at the Big 5 of the RIAA...Sony and the rest....notice where they are headquartered....and, in league with the globalist agenda...they are militantly pro intellectual property....

OK...that's the rant...gotta go with my wife somewhere....

To make our "western" style of life work and keep our individual freedoms, I propose a few rules...

the smaller the business, the less regulation by government... and the bigger the business, the more government controled

...and the most important factor is that the PEOPLE control the government

not the corporation

I was born in the United States of America and expect to have an influence on and follow the rules of this country. I do not believe any other country should have direct control in how the laws in my country are shaped and enforced. While I understand that collective minds can deduce great plans of action, I believe the current conditions of many countries would bring a lot of corrupted and tainted individuals--not really the greatest minds. In order for honest, transparent conclusions for the worlds problems, we need individuals who are not directly connected to the government or corporations, otherwise they risk being tainted. Even if such groups were formed(presumably elected by the people) I do not believe their powers should supercede suggestions and advice. With that advice, congressman could introduce bills relating or reflecting with whatever concepts they agree with(note in their country only), which the public would have to support to come into law. In order for such a process to occur, much effort must be given, and the populace as a whole would have to participate considerably in the process-- many of which are disinterested or simply too busy with their own lives.

Such globalization would work better with smaller communities, not huge countries like the United States. The countries involved in this globalization process also have separate cultures, which cannot be defined by one broad set of global rules.

As for these individuals from India, how can we really gauge if they are, “happier?” First we have to define exactly what we mean by happier. For this discourse, I'll define it as a more enjoyable and stable living style compared to more traditional living. Then we have to define what variables would be included in this increased happiness, such as: amount of stress, overall health, and relationship with family and friends(note that wealth and income are NOT listed, this will be explained further shortly). Then we would have to form an unbiased(as possible) survey and interview individuals who work at call centers, and individuals who live a more traditional life in India. Finally, we would compare and analyze the results. A lengthy process indeed.

The reason I didn't include income and wealth is that, often they are miscontrued to be large factor in overall happiness, which isn't true in all societies(though often true in many western societies). The family insititution, however, is a powerfull social insititution in just about every society. Globalization doesn't take this into account. Instead it plays on the idea that all societies need money for “happiness” and that it is necessary to implement such a large scale effort in order for that true “happiness” to be acheived in many poorer countries, while simultaneously diluting the already suffering cultures of many of these countries.

To clarify... I'm not stating the poorer countries should not find other venues in order to improve the living conditions of their population, just that globalization, IMO is not the best or even a considerable solution. Countries were formed by individuals who decided they no longer wished to live in the anarchy-like state of nature. So, many of them came together and formed the state of law(countries) in order to make a crux of stability in all their lives. Though most nations share those origins in some way or another, their societies, which shape their cultures, have developed in very different manners across the globe. Culture is a very precious commodity, that is a combination of ideals(values, beliefs) and materials.

Compmore,

I assume that the small towns you refer to are towns in the USA. If this assumption is correct, then most of those people probably did have a choice: they could have moved to another town or city where there employment options may have been better (I have done that myself on more than one occasion).

Now, if globalization has meant that, for some areas, the choice is to "go hungry or work for substandard wages", then that implies that WITHOUT globalization there would not be a choice: the folks would just go hungry. So if nothing else your arguement would at least give globalization some credit for reducing world hunger.

I really don't think that the Indians I talked to were "brainwashed" by the mutlinationals they worked for. They preferred multinational companies because they paid more and generally treated their employees better than the "Indian owned" companies. If you get a chance to spend a fair amount of time in India and get to know some of them, I think you'll understand what I mean.

Code, in your last post you did bring up a very good point about what constitutes what we call 'globalization'. I agree that many programs by the UN and the IMF have gone poorly, and I certainly agree that it is wrong for us to use global forums to ram our screwed up copyright laws down everybody's throats.

Your historical point about globalism and the Romans is also quite valid.

So, I really need to clarify my position on globalism. If globalism occurs primarily by virtue of government edict (be it the UN or a small coalition of very powerful nations) or armed force, then this is not going to be good. But I think that if globalism occurs primarily through free trade, investment, and expansion by multinational corporations, then on balance globalism is a good thing. In my travels I have seen a lot of industrial development in India and South Korea for which multinationals get to claim credit, and neither the Indians nor the Koreans would want to turn back the clock, so to speak, to where they were 30 years ago.

Globalism by multinationals also tends to break down autocratic arrangments which have historically been common in the third world. Those in Asia who wish to remain poor and stick to their 'traditional' way of life are usually free to do so. Not surprisingly, when given the choice, the vast majority will chose to go with more wealth and more exposure to 'foreign' culture - just as we in the US have done.

This all exposes the way the world works and how completely unfair it is. One country is poor. One is not. The one that is not exploits the poorer country which benefits from increased revenue from the richer country. But in reality the poorer country will always be the lesser and losing while only gaining small handouts and in the process losing it's cultural identity.

I'm not saying that there is some magical utopian method of making the world a 'fairer' place to live in. The truth is that we are all to blame as the human race. Most of us walk around in blind ignorance and through mass ignorance and an exploitative minority amongst those masses we have created these problems on a global scale.

We are our own worst enemy really. Societal structure dictates this to be so. Can we turn the tide? Not unless those who lead us through government and the media can make brave decisions instead of leeching on those that support them.

great points one and all...reminds me of a saying... People get the kind of government they deserve....I think we all deserve much better than we get....

Don't we make anything in America anymore Factories and Plant's all over our country are closing their door's you wonder why the economy gone to hell it should be clear as a bell when Americans don't work their's no one left to buy what you sell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why the tax cuts did and didn't work Tax cut's put more money back into the pocket's of the american people who in turned bought things (above and beyound) this was good for corp. but so damn little is made in the USA anymore that the only ones to benfit from it were the overseas goods sold by corp. who employ overseas labor so this is why you have a stockmarket up but a jobless recovery The bubble is about to burst!!!!!!!! When you go to pay make sure it's made in the USA!!!!!!!!!

good point Bufo. I understand where you're coming from. Just because they get a few more crumbs then they are used to getting doesn't make it right. yes those towns were in the US and no, not everyone could just up and move. that's the argument I was talking about when people say "if you don't like it, then change it, get something better." when you live without much hope that's not possible. and if everybody did that then these companies wouldn't have anyone to shit on for their own profit.

to say globilazation cures hunger is really suprising. these companies are not out for anything noble like that. I still do not see the benifit in this. Corporations are a necessary evil but without control and restrictions they are very harmful to society in the long run. in the short run they may put a little food on the table while the execs and shareholders take a trip to the bahamas. I hate corporations with the intensity of a thousand burning suns. (as my daughter would say) I've worked for too many of them and have been burned every time.

AMERICA FOR SALE TO LOWEST BIDDER

Talk about lousy, i'm ashamed to be an American anymore... outsourcing of jobs, ripping off workers, and to top it off a lot of American products are garbage.. I just read a report that the average drop in sales for american car companies in january was 15% while the average increase in sales for japanese car companies was the same... 30% gap there.. you ask why? because Americans are wising up and realizing that Detroit and other American companies(not all) are making unreliable crap while imports are making reliable (and more stylish) products.. Wake up American coorporations... STOP MAKING SHIT JUST SO YOU CEO's CAN AFFORD AN EXTRA BEACH HOUSE, while your EMPLOYEES GET SCREWED.. AMERICA IS SICK OF IT.. "i would rather buy a kia from Korea than the crapola that Detroit is putting out.. Word to the wise, buy imports.. because obviously american corporations cant stop making garbage at others expense!! i'm out... grrr

As a people we see the injustices, but as an individual we seem to be able (or unwilling) to do anything about it.. But in reality there are things that can be done...values people, values are what made this country great and can make the world a great and diversified place. When you see something that is wrong say something to somebody that persons thinking is then affected, and they in turn will say something to someone else and the chain reaction will start (that is what is so great about the forums here)...we all know people (have them in our family even) that worship the almighty dollar...while their neighbor is hungary or cold.. this is wrong I don't care how you want to look at it.. No one seems willing to pass on their dollar for the betterment of their neighbor- they want it all and only for themselves..
It is a pitiful country that lets the corp bigwigs make all the money while the workers that are making them the money can't afford a decent place to live, health insurance or even a night on the town..
Oh how we take for granted that family,health, peace and love are the most important thing.

The making of a homogeneousm world is not good, the diversity and the values of different cultures is what makes us all rich.

Choppy thoughts but its early still.

The able in the first sentence should of course be _unable_

"The making of a homogeneousm world is not good, the diversity and the values of different cultures is what makes us all rich."

My point exactly...and thanks soundseeker!

Soundsseeker,

One could argue that 'globalism' enhances diversity by exposing countries to other ways of doing things.

A good example of a society which has not been exposed to much 'globalism' is North Korea. Their society is very homogenous because of this lack of contact with the outside world. Other examples would be Laos and Burma.

Frankly, I think these countries could use a little 'globalism' - but preferably via free trade & business interactions, rather than via military force.

Very good points soundsseeker, I agree completely. The peole of the country, not the government, not big corporations are the foundation of this country. It was originally just ordinary people who came together to form the state of law, and the people themselves held the power, which they appropriated as they saw fit at the time. Some things differ with the US, but we still hold the upmost responsibility in our country. If we continue to be indifferent to the actions of government and corporations then we are allowing ourselves to be lead like sheep to slaughter. While it requires some participation to increase values, education on various issues other parties with to supress, it doesn't require as much as many of us fear.

If we all just gave a little effort towards such values, and they don't need to be strictly defined(we have to learn to appreciate different subcultures in our country with different values) then that a enormous impact. Consider how large the population of the US is, and how many of them are in the top tiers of the hierarchy of big business of the US. There are approximately 260 million people in the US, and if, and I think this is a generous percent, 3% percent were the top tiers of the big business/government, then their total population would be 78,000. I don't know about you, but I don't want that 78,000 group of individuals running the lives of 260 million. While the smaller group may have more "clout" and "recognition" they cannot defeat our efforts, if we all participate.

If anyone read an earlier post from me, I mentioned that Gateway tried to cancel my service contract because I demanded to speak to someone I could understand when they spoke to me. I stand by that post.
This is ridiculous. I dont' give two shits about how India is doing things. If they don't like it, they can move. If they can't move, then they should work to change things where they are. Early Americans did it, and the West was populated in record time/numbers.
US companies are slowly becoming more "global" minded and less "domestic" minded. It's about making money. PERIOD. They can tout all the bullshit they want about how it's improving Indias economy and the standard of living and all that, but the bottom line is and will always be that it's cheaper for the company to run things overseas.
I've DONE telemarketing. I subcontracted for ATT, fingerhut and a few credit card companies and yes Code, the numbers are screwed up. We had quotas, we had long hours, we had a lot of shit to put up with, but the paychecks never bounced. I basicaly adopted the same attitude. It's about the money. I worked my ass off, and got paid. End of story. It's not something that Joe Average can make a living of, as it does take a certain type of person. But I digress.
whatever they do, these companies haven't yet realised that they can't keep making money if no one buys their stuff. No one can buy their stuff if they're unemployed. But the companies wn't hire em because it's cheaper to send the work overseas, which increases profit margin.
When someone starts a business, it's to make money. Having a social conscience is a nice ideal to set, but the bottom line is "How much money will we make today"
I'm not saying these companies should stay domestic. If they can do whatever they wanna do while sacrificing American jobs, *shrug* I'm just a little guy with a keyboard. I just wish they would STFU about all the "social" sunshine and light when it's NOT about making India a better place, it's about the new beach house of the CTO.
*kicking over my soapbox*
ttmmm